E36 M3 vs E46 M3 comparison post at the Org [Archive] - bimmerfest

JST

05-15-2002, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by Alex Baumann

that 321 hp Euro E36 M3 is a very serious automobile. A good buddy of mine has one and I had the opportunity to drive it once. Fast as a lightning.

I'm saving my pennies and I'm saving my dimes, but instead of a 409 maybe I'll eventually get a Euro motor for the M3.

in_d_haus

05-15-2002, 08:45 AM

I asked about the E36 vs E46 for the track to a friend of mine who has not only owned both as well as many Porsches (currently has an E46 M3) but who is also a racer. He asked me "What are you buying? a street car or a race car?"

He went on "If you are buying a street car the E46 is the one" If you are buying a race car BOTH fall short... go buy a real race car."

Makes sense to me! :thumb:

nate

05-15-2002, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by in_d_haus
I asked about the E36 vs E46 for the track to a friend of mine who has not only owned both as well as many Porsches (currently has an E46 M3) but who is also a racer. He asked me "What are you buying? a street car or a race car?"

He went on "If you are buying a street car the E46 is the one" If you are buying a race car BOTH fall short... go buy a real race car."

Makes sense to me! :thumb:

EXACTLY

neither car is light at all :rolleyes:

The new M cars are SO much faster than thier prior generations, you have to be going MUCH faster than is legal to even feel like you are pushing it. For example, 110-140 is nothing for an M5 or M3 down a winding highway....

in_d_haus

05-15-2002, 09:36 AM

One of our clubs senior instructors talked to me about the E46 M3. He instructed in onw this past weekend. He said the car has such long legs that on the short and twisty course they never could wring it out. He did say due to the power the could go through 2nd gear corners in 3rd with no problem

in_d_haus

05-15-2002, 09:37 AM

Maybe the best compromise is the E30 M3....:dunno:

nate

05-15-2002, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by in_d_haus
One of our clubs senior instructors talked to me about the E46 M3. He instructed in onw this past weekend. He said the car has such long legs that on the short and twisty course they never could wring it out. He did say due to the power the could go through 2nd gear corners in 3rd with no problem

yea, and this is funny

That 100% trick diff. It is so good that it's becoming a bore sometimes. In my E36, I can induce oversteer at will with the go pedal. With the E46, you'll need to feed SO MUCH power to get it that the oversteer that you induce tend to be qutie unruly. And no, I don't drive with DSC on, just like I never drove with ASC+T on.

Damn!! Effectively putting power down and keeping the rear end on track. What a shame! :tsk:

The HACK

05-15-2002, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by atyclb
It's such a pig he was passing E36 M3's! :confused:

j/k TD

Well...The 100+ HP matters a lot.

And I think he's right on the border of being a B student anyway, he was also passing up M5s at will on the track, and he's giving up another 70+ hp on the M5s.

I will have to agree with some of what he says. However, he's never driven the E30 M3, and I think that was the ultimate M car besides the M1. I mean compared to the E30 M3 his E36 M3 was a pig with crappy steering.

in_d_haus

05-15-2002, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by The HACK
I mean compared to the E30 M3 his E36 M3 was a pig with crappy steering.

There ya go! :thumb: :D

The HACK

05-15-2002, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by nate328Ci

yea, and this is funny

Damn!! Effectively putting power down and keeping the rear end on track. What a shame! :tsk:

Count your blessings you NEVER have to ride with this guy or drive on the same freeways. Everytime I rode with him he attemps to show what a powerslide looks like in his car.

And HE thinks I drive too fast on surface streets. Yeah.

in_d_haus

05-15-2002, 10:21 AM

Ya, my buddy the racer drives, among other things, a 1960s Lola. It has bad tires and drum brakes. He says you don't touch the brakes and just slide the car around the track if ya wanna be competitive at all. This is due to the lack of any technology in the car.

A judicious application of torque steer can be helpful at times but ya don't wanna go sliding the car around or your lap times will suffer generally.

nate

05-15-2002, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by The HACK

Well...The 100+ HP matters a lot.

And I think he's right on the border of being a B student anyway, he was also passing up M5s at will on the track, and he's giving up another 70+ hp on the M5s.

I will have to agree with some of what he says. However, he's never driven the E30 M3, and I think that was the ultimate M car besides the M1. I mean compared to the E30 M3 his E36 M3 was a pig with crappy steering.

It doesn't suprise me that he was passing M5s. They only have a very slight power to weight advantage. The M5 is heavy and has an older design with an inferior LSD....I will be spending 2 days driving one at the track in a couple weeks :D

You are right about the E30 :p

in_d_haus

05-15-2002, 10:34 AM

I think the biggest thing that all the E36 -vs- E46 threads point out is that evernew model has to go through the sarcasm before it is accepted.

The E36 got flamed bad for years by the E30 purists. Now we are seeing that same thing with the E46. When the next M3 comes out the E46 crowd will slam it and point out why the E46 is better.... the cycle never ends.

:D

nate

05-15-2002, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by The HACK

Count your blessings you NEVER have to ride with this guy or drive on the same freeways. Everytime I rode with him he attemps to show what a powerslide looks like in his car.

And HE thinks I drive too fast on surface streets. Yeah.

I'll take your word for it :eek:

nate

05-15-2002, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by in_d_haus
I think the biggest thing that all the E36 -vs- E46 threads point out is that evernew model has to go through the sarcasm before it is accepted.

The E36 got flamed bad for years by the E30 purists. Now we are seeing that same thing with the E46. When the next M3 comes out the E46 crowd will slam it and point out why the E46 is better.... the cycle never ends.

:D

Exactly....

The E36 was quite a huge change when it came out. But, pretty much everyone now accepts it. Same with the E46 non-M now. I can only think of one person here who truly hates it :D

ALEX325i

05-15-2002, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by in_d_haus
I asked about the E36 vs E46 for the track to a friend of mine who has not only owned both as well as many Porsches (currently has an E46 M3) but who is also a racer. He asked me "What are you buying? a street car or a race car?"

He went on "If you are buying a street car the E46 is the one" If you are buying a race car BOTH fall short... go buy a real race car."

Makes sense to me! :thumb:

Couldn't agree more. I've had 2 C5's (and of course, a bunch of other cars like A4 1.8T Q, 325is (E36), Golf, Ranger, etc). The E46 M3 is, overall, the best sports car I've had... :thumb:

ALEX325i

05-15-2002, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by nate328Ci

...110-140 is nothing for an M5 or M3 down a winding highway....

You know it! :thumb:

nate

05-15-2002, 11:01 AM

ALEX325i

05-15-2002, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by in_d_haus
I think the biggest thing that all the E36 -vs- E46 threads point out is that evernew model has to go through the sarcasm before it is accepted.

The E36 got flamed bad for years by the E30 purists. Now we are seeing that same thing with the E46. When the next M3 comes out the E46 crowd will slam it and point out why the E46 is better.... the cycle never ends.

:D

Personally, I like new... New = more technologically advanced = better... But that's just me... ;)

ayn

05-15-2002, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by ALEX325i

Couldn't agree more. I've had 2 C5's (and of course, a bunch of other cars like A4 1.8T Q, 325is (E36), Golf, Ranger, etc). The E46 M3 is, overall, the best sports car I've had... :thumb:

I've never driven a 'vette, but I want to have a track car and a used Z06 will look really really attractive. depreciation on the 'vettes is pretty insane so I think I might be able to find a cheap one with little milege...

so is the E46 M3 really better than a corvette? I can't afford a track-only car, at least not one that expensive, so it will probably be my daily driver as well... what ya think?

--Andrew

ALEX325i

05-15-2002, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by nate328Ci

:thumb:

You've had an E36?!?!?!

What a HUGE step down to the E46 M3 then ;) :lmao:

Yup. 95 325is... Dumped it in favor of the A4 in 1998... :D I guess that shows how much I like E36's... They're good cars, but mine got old fast... Dunno why... The only thing I regret is getting the A4 with Tip... That was dumb... :tsk: Oh well, it was kind of "fun" in the beginning... I also had the Nassau Blue Vette (6-sp) though. ;)

nate

05-15-2002, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by ayn

so is the E46 M3 really better than a corvette? I can't afford a track-only car, at least not one that expensive, so it will probably be my daily driver as well... what ya think?

--Andrew

That sounds like a very good plan. The E46 M3 is great for the street and track. Seats 5 and luggage too :bigpimp:

nate

05-15-2002, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by ALEX325i

Yup. 95 325is... Dumped it in favor of the A4 in 1998... :D I guess that shows how much I like E36's... They're good cars, but mine got old fast... Dunno why... The only thing I regret is getting the A4 with Tip... That was dumb... :tsk: Oh well, it was kind of "fun" in the beginning... I also had the Nassau Blue Vette (6-sp) though. ;)

I would have kept that E36 rather than get a new A4 :angel:

ALEX325i

05-15-2002, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by ayn

I've never driven a 'vette, but I want to have a track car and a used Z06 will look really really attractive. depreciation on the 'vettes is pretty insane so I think I might be able to find a cheap one with little milege...

so is the E46 M3 really better than a corvette? I can't afford a track-only car, at least not one that expensive, so it will probably be my daily driver as well... what ya think?

--Andrew

Andrew,

I'd say go with the M3. The Vette kicks M3 butt, but it's just not practical as a daily driver IMO... I had a 98 Nassau Blue and a 01 Torch Red (which I traded for the M3), but also had other cars I used as daily drivers: A4 and 325i. I miss them, but overall, the M3's better. Especially as a daily driver... ;)

ayn

05-15-2002, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by ALEX325i

Andrew,

I'd say go with the M3. The Vette kicks M3 butt, but it's just not practical as a daily driver IMO... I had a 98 Nassau Blue and a 01 Torch Red (which I traded for the M3), but also had other cars I used as daily drivers: A4 and 325i. I miss them, but overall, the M3's better. Especially as a daily driver... ;)

cool, thanks! that's kindda what i figured as well, but since u've owned all of those cars i thought i'll see what u think about them...

--Andrew

ALEX325i

05-15-2002, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by nate328Ci

I would have kept that E36 rather than get a new A4 :angel:

Well, there were moments when I thought so too... Basically after I realized I would never get used to the Tip gearbox... :(

Anyway, I decided to wait and get an E46 (they came out a month or two after I bought the A4). Then, in 2000, I got a 323Ci... 2000 was a great year. I had a lot of toys back then... :D

http://members.roadfly.com/mosal01/98NBVette.jpg

http://members.roadfly.com/mosal01/BMW4.JPG

Imola Ed

05-15-2002, 02:24 PM

As someone who's owned both an E36 M3 and an E46 M3, here's what I think:

1) The E36 was definitely more sports oriented (or at least it felt that way). Louder, stiffer suspension, etc. It felt more like a sports car because it was less refined. This had its downsides when you just wanted to drive to the store.

2) The E46 is very refined. The suspension is still stiff, but much more forgiving. It feels like a sports car when you tell it to, and behaves itself when you're just cruising. Honestly, I wish the suspension were a little tighter. I'll be getting coilovers soon, so I'll get my wish for better or worse.

But the bottom line is that the E46 M3 is by far a better car. Call it heavy, etc. whatever. I don't care. It's an amazing feat of technology. It fools you at times into thinking it's a normal car, but when you put it to the test, it just handles everything with grace. You want to whip around a corner. It says "yeah, whatever". That to me is the most amazing thing about it. It always seems like it's kind of "sure, we can do that", and never "I don't think this is a good idea".

In some ways, that might not be a good thing — sometimes you want to feel like you're pushing the car, but it'll take quite a bit to push the E46 to its limits, so it feels calm. This calmness might cause some to think the car lacks excitement, I think. Perhaps that is why some think the E36 is more true to its roots. I agree that to some, the E36 was to the E30 as the E46 is to the E36. Big, bloated, too luxury-oriented.

But I would never go back. No way.

in_d_haus

05-15-2002, 02:30 PM

Ed I've heard the Eibach Pro system is great on the E46. Still streetable but tight enough for the track.

Imola Ed

05-15-2002, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by in_d_haus
Ed I've heard the Eibach Pro system is great on the E46. Still streetable but tight enough for the track.

Interesting. Currently I'm waiting on some KW Variant 2s. I really want adjustable dampening. Though there is a long wait, so I'm not sure if I'll just go to something more readily available.

in_d_haus

05-15-2002, 02:52 PM

I was thinking of the PSS for mine (when it gets here) but have heard it's still pretty hard.

Imola Ed

05-15-2002, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by in_d_haus
I was thinking of the PSS for mine (when it gets here) but have heard it's still pretty hard.

Have you checked out the PSS 9s? Those are adjustable.

JPinTO

05-15-2002, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by in_d_haus
Ed I've heard the Eibach Pro system is great on the E46. Still streetable but tight enough for the track.

I'm putting this on my car soon.

.Gravedgr.

05-16-2002, 05:52 AM

I'm really hoping that when my M gets here, I don't really feel a need for additional suspension changes (from a $$ perspective) - I'm hoping that it more than satisfies me straight from the factory. That being said, I'm not banking on that being the case so I'm trying to evaluate my options. Earliest I'd be looking to buy would be around September/October (when I have stock options I can sell). A lot will also depend on when (and IF) I swap the wheels for something aftermarket.

Imola Ed

05-16-2002, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by .Gravedgr.
I'm really hoping that when my M gets here, I don't really feel a need for additional suspension changes (from a $$ perspective) - I'm hoping that it more than satisfies me straight from the factory. That being said, I'm not banking on that being the case so I'm trying to evaluate my options. Earliest I'd be looking to buy would be around September/October (when I have stock options I can sell). A lot will also depend on when (and IF) I swap the wheels for something aftermarket.

You might not need anything beyond stock. Stock suspension is quite good. When you start to push the car, you realize very quickly this car is tight. I mean, there's a reason it's won so many first/second place slots in so many car magazine tests. In fact, I remember Evo magazine picked their best for 2001, and the M3 came in 2nd only to the insanely expensive Zonda. It beat out cars costing 4 times as much!

But, if you do get aftermarket wheels, you might want to drop it a bit, but springs are relatively cheap and your ride shouldn't suffer. You'll need to replace your shocks sooner than expected though (couple of years probably).

Me, I want lowering, but I want control over the height, and I want to be able to adjust the dampening so that I don't get stuck paying $1500 for something that's too harsh. That's why I'm going coils.

blackdawg

05-17-2002, 09:42 AM

it has to be in today's car market.

the question is: by how much?

and is it worth it to most people?

that's a personal decision and completely subjective. objectively, the newer car spanks the old one. but is that because of HP or because it handles better?

we'll see when the S52 engine'd e36m3s start showing up at track days with the new Conforti cam/injector kits.

then it would be an easier answer re: handling?

nate

05-17-2002, 09:53 AM

From Roundel, Nov. 2001
What did we learn from the M3 in its natural habitat? BMW has created an evolutionary car here, taking the razor-sharp responses of the E30 M3 and the GT feel of the E36 M3 and melding them into a stunningly capable sports coupe. Due to more weight and isolation, the M3 does not feel 90 hp faster than the E36. Yet a glance at the speedometer tells you just how fast you’re really going. Handling reflexes have been sharpened beyond the E36’s, but there’s just too much weight for the new car to feel as frisky as an E30 M3. Recombining the strongest genes from the E30 M3 crisp handling, rev-happy motor with key E36 M3 strands daily comfort and flexible performance BMW added the safety, refinement, and technology required in a $50,000 car and created a worthy offspring. You clearly feel the influence of the M3’s predecessors as the E46 M3 credibly challenges cars like the Porsche 911 and Corvette for the first time. In the crucible of the Nürburgring, you can see the M3 evolving to face the new world, its DNA intact. Charles Darwin would be proud.

nate

05-17-2002, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by blackdawg
we'll see when the S52 engine'd e36m3s start showing up at track days with the new Conforti cam/injector kits.

then it would be an easier answer re: handling?

Not necessarily, it is very likely that a car with Conforti cams would have suspension upgrades as well...

blackdawg

05-17-2002, 10:45 AM

i also doubt, given the demographic, that it would have stock wheels and stock rubber and stock suspension, too.

so it would be fair enough.

nate

05-17-2002, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by blackdawg
i also doubt, given the demographic, that it would have stock wheels and stock rubber and stock suspension, too.

so it would be fair enough.

No, I understand that the E46 is likely to be all stock, but I would suspect that if an E36 M3 owner were to buy this upgrade, it is also likely that there would be suspension upgrades as well...