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View Full Version : Pontiac copied BMW? or the other way round?


roadie
09-13-2004, 04:48 PM
Just curious, but did Chris Bangle design Pontiacs as well as BMW?

CLICK Here for comparison photos (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36753&stc=1)

alpinewhite325i
09-13-2004, 05:13 PM
The only similarity I see is the Kidney Grills.

And we all know that BMW pioneered that.

dagoo98
09-14-2004, 06:39 AM
The whole front of the car loos similar. The headlights are shaped the same, the hood has almost the same curves and the overall look is similar. If the cars were debadged and the headlights removed, these two cars would be hard to differentiate. I was driving two nights ago and I came up fast on a car which I thought was a Pontiac very quickly only to realize when I got close that it was a 525. I admit the 545 looks much better with its additional exterior trimmings but the 525 is not impressing at all.

acribb
09-14-2004, 08:11 AM
Please. There is no comparison. The 5-series looks so much cleaner AND classier. I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't EVER mistake Pontiacs for Bimmers...... :eek:

EdCT
09-14-2004, 08:18 AM
Well, I DO see the similarity.

I think the new Bimmers just aren't going to age well. They will never look "classic" the way some of the other designs do. Why? Restraint my friends; bimmers of yore were restrained and tasteful if not always inspirational.

Besides, the new 5 has this weird sort of Samurai-influenced swoop to it. It's a car that seems embarrassed to be seen in the clothes it was given.

Poor car :thumbdwn:

Ed

FireFly
09-14-2004, 08:29 AM
The whole front of the car loos similar. The headlights are shaped the same, the hood has almost the same curves and the overall look is similar. If the cars were debadged and the headlights removed, these two cars would be hard to differentiate. I was driving two nights ago and I came up fast on a car which I thought was a Pontiac very quickly only to realize when I got close that it was a 525. I admit the 545 looks much better with its additional exterior trimmings but the 525 is not impressing at all.

I just don't see it. I will give Pontiac credit for getting rid of all the plastic crap on the sides of previous models. I drove next to a pontiac today and it looked a lot cleaner than the old boneville ssxti or whatever they called it. Did it look like a BMW?- heck no!

DN325CI
09-14-2004, 08:31 AM
Well, I DO see the similarity.

I think the new Bimmers just aren't going to age well. They will never look "classic" the way some of the other designs do. Why? Restraint my friends; bimmers of yore were restrained and tasteful if not always inspirational.


So true. Even today, former product boss Wolfgang Reitzle is still considered one of the top 3 or 4 "product" guys in the industry because he knows how a car should look even before it is finished. As David Kiley says in his book Driven, "Reitzle is blessed with great knowledge and instinct about how a vehicle should operate... and he has a tremendous sense of that which cannot be taught - good taste."

Bangle likes art for the sake of art, surfacing for the sake of surfacing, design for the sake of design. Never mind that form should always follow function.

I am ashamed to call him a fellow Ohioan. I sure he would be fantastic at sculpturing or painting, but keep him in the museum and out of the R&D centers, please.

Don

Fifty_Cent
09-14-2004, 09:02 AM
So true. Even today, former product boss Wolfgang Reitzle is still considered one of the top 3 or 4 "product" guys in the industry because he knows how a car should look even before it is finished. As David Kiley says in his book Driven, "Reitzle is blessed with great knowledge and instinct about how a vehicle should operate... and he has a tremendous sense of that which cannot be taught - good taste."

Bangle likes art for the sake of art, surfacing for the sake of surfacing, design for the sake of design. Never mind that form should always follow function.

I am ashamed to call him a fellow Ohioan. I sure he would be fantastic at sculpturing or painting, but keep him in the museum and out of the R&D centers, please.

Don
So true..... I also think that new designs wont age well. They also look soulless. I dont know how to describe it.Wolfgang Reitzle (trhe guy with the small beard right?)was a Topp exe as well as the heart of BMW.

I dont know what has made him leave, but the new guys are going crazy with their designs.

LeucX3
09-14-2004, 10:34 AM
I was on the freeway yesterday on my way to lunch and about 4-5 cars ahead of me was an e60. The sad thing is that i didn't realize it until i got up really close. At first glance i thought it might have been a WRX. :eek:

dagoo98
09-14-2004, 11:25 AM
Please. There is no comparison. The 5-series looks so much cleaner AND classier. I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't EVER mistake Pontiacs for Bimmers...... :eek:

If you can't look at those two cars and see their look similar you have blinders on to the world. We all love BMW's and maybe I will begin to like the E60 by next year but as for right now, the only one I would consider driving is the 545 with the body kit that you can get from the factory but I don't like it enough to buy it. I saw one on the street and it looks a lot better than the 6 cylinder versions. The E60 M5 is good looking because it has even more exterior accents but I don't think I'll ever think of it the way I think of the exterior of the e39 M5. Mechanically it is amazing and maybe worth purchasing just based on performance the I don't like the looks. Then again I could not drive a 4000 pound car with a 6 cylinder engine. My aunt bought a 98 528 new and when I drove it I was not impressed with the speed so when I got mine a couple years later I knew I had to get the V8. :D
If it doesn't grow on me by next year I will probably get the X5 4.8is because you got love that two toned interior. :thumbup:

dagoo98
09-14-2004, 11:29 AM
If you took someone that had no idea what a BMW was and what kind of quality it stood for and also didn't know what a Pontiac was, I they would probably think the same manufacturer built both of them based on the exterior. They might say the 5 series was a higher model but they would probably think the same people produce both cars. that doesn't say much for the E60.

Whether you want to admit it or not, I have never heard of anyone making any kind of comparisons between a BMW and a Pontiac before the E60 was released. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Mysticblue325i
09-14-2004, 11:41 AM
If you took someone that had no idea what a BMW was and what kind of quality it stood for and also didn't know what a Pontiac was, I they would probably think the same manufacturer built both of them based on the exterior. They might say the 5 series was a higher model but they would probably think the same people produce both cars. that doesn't say much for the E60.

Whether you want to admit it or not, I have never heard of anyone making any kind of comparisons between a BMW and a Pontiac before the E60 was released. Correct me if I'm wrong.Well, I don't know about all that, but there are definately a number a styling similarities. This happens quite often in the auto industry and is nothing new. Hyundai and Kia do it with their Sonata and Amanti (ques from Jaguar and Mercedes) for example.

I'm not a big fan of the E60, but I think I'll wait a little bit and see what other auto manufacturers come up with before commenting on how well it ages (I think it may be relative). Its all very subjective anyway.

roadie
09-14-2004, 09:08 PM
So true. Even today, former product boss Wolfgang Reitzle is still considered one of the top 3 or 4 "product" guys in the industry because he knows how a car should look even before it is finished. As David Kiley says in his book Driven, "Reitzle is blessed with great knowledge and instinct about how a vehicle should operate... and he has a tremendous sense of that which cannot be taught - good taste."

Bangle likes art for the sake of art, surfacing for the sake of surfacing, design for the sake of design. Never mind that form should always follow function.

I am ashamed to call him a fellow Ohioan. I sure he would be fantastic at sculpturing or painting, but keep him in the museum and out of the R&D centers, please.

Don

Don, I have to agree. I want to love the E60, but to the novice observer, it is beginning to look too domestic...I am so frustrated at BMW - Bangle bungled the design :mad:

tsbrown
09-14-2004, 09:40 PM
So true..... I also think that new designs wont age well. They also look soulless. I dont know how to describe it.Wolfgang Reitzle (trhe guy with the small beard right?)was a Topp exe as well as the heart of BMW.

I dont know what has made him leave, but the new guys are going crazy with their designs.

Reitzle was BMW's #2 behind Bernd Pieschutsrieder (sp?) now at VW. He was also responsible for the 8 series, if memory serves. Both were among the scapegoats for the Rover debacle. Reitzle went to Ford as the head of Premier Auto Group, not coincidentally the buyer of Land Rover from BMW, but left after Bill Ford Jr took over and surfaced as CEO at Linde in Germany(totally outside the auto industry).

then I googled Reitzle and found this (from July 2002, I think)...
http://www.automobilemag.com/columns/0207_americandriver/

tsbrown
09-14-2004, 09:59 PM
If you can't look at those two cars and see their look similar you have blinders on to the world. We all love BMW's and maybe I will begin to like the E60 by next year but as for right now, the only one I would consider driving is the 545 with the body kit that you can get from the factory but I don't like it enough to buy it. I saw one on the street and it looks a lot better than the 6 cylinder versions. The E60 M5 is good looking because it has even more exterior accents but I don't think I'll ever think of it the way I think of the exterior of the e39 M5. Mechanically it is amazing and maybe worth purchasing just based on performance the I don't like the looks. Then again I could not drive a 4000 pound car with a 6 cylinder engine. My aunt bought a 98 528 new and when I drove it I was not impressed with the speed so when I got mine a couple years later I knew I had to get the V8. :D
If it doesn't grow on me by next year I will probably get the X5 4.8is because you got love that two toned interior. :thumbup:

First, there's no denying the similarity. If someone doesn't see it, it's because they don't want to. But that's not the reason I'm trading to a 330i ZHP. As much as I want to love the E60, I'm selling my E39 and moving to the ZHP because I just can't bring myself to like the E60 enough to pay $55k+. What I like about the E39 is that it is a great looking car even without all the aero add-ons. M5 body (and engine) parts just make it better. Not so with the E60. I like the E60 M-sport aero package, but I think the overall design is lacking if it requires these additions to appeal to most people, or at least me. The E60 is also unnecessarily bigger...something I don't need. Our X5 is the everyday kidhauler.

Also, check the specs on the E39 528...it weighs less than 4000 lbs...more like 3700 or so. And the 528i, while certainly not as quick as the 540i, is no slouch. But yes, the V8 torque is addictive.

crete
09-14-2004, 10:56 PM
IMHO.. it seems car design today is getting to uniform in appearance.. Most of today's newer cars seem to add that armour plate look around the sides and doors with sharp edges and contours which match up with a continous form bumper that you cannot even tell where the bumper starts and ends.

It seems unique styling and elegant originality is being replaced with a false sense of aggressive presence.

Take the Acura TL 2004 and see how they changed their styling from 2003 and earlier cars. It seems similar to the direction the 5 series went from E39 to E60.

You can almost say the same for GM, Toyota, Nissan, etc... For some reason though I don't see Mercedes making that radical change just yet.

dagoo98
09-15-2004, 09:10 AM
IMHO.. it seems car design today is getting to uniform in appearance.. Most of today's newer cars seem to add that armour plate look around the sides and doors with sharp edges and contours which match up with a continous form bumper that you cannot even tell where the bumper starts and ends.

It seems unique styling and elegant originality is being replaced with a false sense of aggressive presence.

Take the Acura TL 2004 and see how they changed their styling from 2003 and earlier cars. It seems similar to the direction the 5 series went from E39 to E60.

You can almost say the same for GM, Toyota, Nissan, etc... For some reason though I don't see Mercedes making that radical change just yet.

Notice that all the manufacturers that you mentioned were wither japanese or american. There is no excuse for a fine german automobile to "follow the pack" like you are suggesting. You make a valid point and that is what makes the E60 even more sad. Will our beloved BMW become more Acura and Toyota like? I hope not because if all the models get this new Bangle look I might have to finally admit to my father that mercedes is a better can than a BMW. He currently owns a SL 500 which has received a new look which makes mercedes owners proud.

roadie
09-15-2004, 01:01 PM
Notice that all the manufacturers that you mentioned were wither japanese or american. There is no excuse for a fine german automobile to "follow the pack" like you are suggesting. You make a valid point and that is what makes the E60 even more sad. Will our beloved BMW become more Acura and Toyota like? I hope not because if all the models get this new Bangle look I might have to finally admit to my father that mercedes is a better can than a BMW. He currently owns a SL 500 which has received a new look which makes mercedes owners proud.

I have to agree. All the new MB models come out as a home runs - excellent lines - whilst preserving their heritage.

Bangle bungled the design heritage of BMW. sad

roadie
09-15-2004, 01:04 PM
IMHO.. it seems car design today is getting to uniform in appearance.. Most of today's newer cars seem to add that armour plate look around the sides and doors with sharp edges and contours which match up with a continous form bumper that you cannot even tell where the bumper starts and ends.

It seems unique styling and elegant originality is being replaced with a false sense of aggressive presence.

Take the Acura TL 2004 and see how they changed their styling from 2003 and earlier cars. It seems similar to the direction the 5 series went from E39 to E60.

You can almost say the same for GM, Toyota, Nissan, etc... For some reason though I don't see Mercedes making that radical change just yet.

Acceptable for a domestic or japanese or korean manufacturer.
Unacceptable for BMW to 'follow the trend'. BMW used to set the trend

Ågent99
09-15-2004, 04:49 PM
I think a lot of cars are starting to look similar. That is why you are seeing stuff like that boxy Honda and PT Cruiser and Beetles doing so well. Those are fairly uniquely-shaped vehicles.

Chris

MMMM_ERT
09-15-2004, 05:10 PM
I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't EVER mistake Pontiacs for Bimmers...... :eek:

:stupid:

casper
09-15-2004, 06:26 PM
Hard to believe that some folks can not see the style on the E60, but to compare it to a pontiac? come on! I guess to some other folks all cars look the same, they all have 4 wheels, right?

I moved from E39 540 to E60 545 and to me, the E39 looks dated now, I can see the aggressive style on my 545 and can appreciate what some guys can't. Like I said before, there are beer drinkers and fine wine drinkers. Not everyone can appreciate the E60 and that maybe part of what I like about it.

roadie
09-15-2004, 08:24 PM
:bigpimp: Hard to believe that some folks can not see the style on the E60, but to compare it to a pontiac? come on! I guess to some other folks all cars look the same, they all have 4 wheels, right?

I moved from E39 540 to E60 545 and to me, the E39 looks dated now, I can see the aggressive style on my 545 and can appreciate what some guys can't. Like I said before, there are beer drinkers and fine wine drinkers. Not everyone can appreciate the E60 and that maybe part of what I like about it.

Buyer's remorse? :p
The people who most admire the E60 design are the same Schlitz drinking, 40 ounce sipping Pontiac GrandPrix lovers...So who's the beer or wine drinker? Most of the people I know who continue to love the E39 design vs E60 are the same people that have owned and appreciated the German engineering and "form following function" design of BMW and MB for years. I have a small collection of BMW and MB's dating back from 1988 - spanning 3 iterations of the the 3er and 5er, as well as the E class and C class of MB's. I consider myself and other friends of mine that have the same passion - able to appreciate fine wine as well as a good cold beer.

I find it preposterous that just because you can appreciate your E60, that others who don't are somehow "beer drinkers" :eeps:

kdshapiro
09-16-2004, 07:17 AM
I was on the freeway yesterday on my way to lunch and about 4-5 cars ahead of me was an e60. The sad thing is that i didn't realize it until i got up really close. At first glance i thought it might have been a WRX. :eek:I was in the parking lot and I saw the worst looking Bimmer ever...Until I got up close. Then I realized that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Good work. Pontiac almost got it perfect.

There is no way to mistake an E60 for a WRX. At worst, if you didn't know an E60 you might think it's some uber-expensive Euro automobile, not a Japanese no-luxury wind-up toy.

dagoo98
09-16-2004, 08:33 AM
Hard to believe that some folks can not see the style on the E60, but to compare it to a pontiac? come on! I guess to some other folks all cars look the same, they all have 4 wheels, right?

I moved from E39 540 to E60 545 and to me, the E39 looks dated now, I can see the aggressive style on my 545 and can appreciate what some guys can't. Like I said before, there are beer drinkers and fine wine drinkers. Not everyone can appreciate the E60 and that maybe part of what I like about it.

What is it exactly that you like about the E60? Do you like it because its a good looking car or because its the new model? Or maybe you like it because you bought one! maybe you thought everyone would like it like BMW's in the past. Some people just buy what's new because its new. These people don't have any kind of vision or appreciation for what actually goes into making a fine automobile but are just people who jump on the band wagon of what's popular. You just might be one of those people.

LeucX3
09-16-2004, 08:59 AM
There is no way to mistake an E60 for a WRX. At worst, if you didn't know an E60 you might think it's some uber-expensive Euro automobile, not a Japanese no-luxury wind-up toy.
Yes there is, cause i did. :neener: :D

kd2789mo
09-16-2004, 10:04 AM
Look only at the hoods. Both Pontiac's have flat hoods, fender-to-fender, and above the headlights. The BMW anything but (especially view the pass side of the BMW hood above the headlight in these pictures. It's not even close.

dagoo98
09-16-2004, 11:25 AM
You are arguing the point that they are not similar because the curvature on the hoods are different. That doesn't seem like a very substantial point to support your claim. Let's examine the hood, first of all I didn't notice until you made me focus on the hood but the two cars actually have the same pinch come to a point on the hood. The lines in the hood are at the same angle and come to nearly the same point, the only difference is BMW raised the hood at the pinch and Pontiac didn't. If you have to stoop so low as to point out little differences between a raised hood and a flat hood to separate these cars you are making your argument weaker because in reality there should be no comparison between these two cars. Your comrades are actually helping the argument more by simply saying there is no comparison. If I was you I would stick to driving the 745li. :thumbup: You don't here anyone comparing that to a Crown Victoria.

All the E60 owners will say that there is no comparison because no one wants to believe they paid $60,000 for a Pontiac. :rofl:

crete
09-16-2004, 01:43 PM
My 2 cents again....FWIW

Car development today (mainly within the last 5 years) seems to be more technology based than body style oriented. It seems car designers are not placing as much emphasis on the emotional look and feel aspects one can get from cars that were designed many years ago. Of course this can be a positive when new technology improves safety and ride handling.

But, there is so much pressure today with car makers to create a vehicle that incorporates so many different kinds of technological advancments as possible, (HUD, NAV, Cell Phones, DSC, Dual Climate, DVD, Auto this..Auto that, Sensors here... Sensors there) that maybe car designers are not in tune with the overall design elements that can give cars a more characteristic presence.

Sometimes when I see a new 2004 or 2005 Acura, Nissan, BMW, Cadillac, Pontiac, Chevy, Chrysler.. its as if the design elements of the body styling came from one group of designers who think the same. Then they all go back to their respective companies and tweak the styling slighty so as to be a little bit different than the others, less pitch on the hood or more of a straight edge on the side panel, etc. Have you seen what Ford is doing with the new 05 Mustang... at least they are trying to return some of the 60s popular design elements that made the model a classic, rather than move further away in design.

When I was ready to buy a BMW I looked at the E60 and yes I thought it had great appeal in some ways and lots of nice technology, but when I was able to have an E39 and E60 side by side, I thought the E60 was moving further away from the design elements that I enjoyed about BMW. So while I still had time I ordered an E39 as one of the last few units of the assembly line.

So no matter what anyone thinks or where BMW goes with their new designs, I know I have a car that I love to look at and enjoy riding more and more everyday. :)

roadie
09-16-2004, 02:20 PM
When I was ready to buy a BMW I looked at the E60 and yes I thought it had great appeal in some ways and lots of nice technology, but when I was able to have an E39 and E60 side by side, I thought the E60 was moving further away from the design elements that I enjoyed about BMW. So while I still had time I ordered an E39 as one of the last few units of the assembly line.

So no matter what anyone thinks or where BMW goes with their new designs, I know I have a car that I love to look at and enjoy riding more and more everyday. :)


Very well put...

gojira-san
09-16-2004, 02:32 PM
I've been enjoying this thread as far as how people perceive their cars; here's my take off the top of my head without the benefit of any real research. ;)

Whether or not Pontiac copied the look from BMW is doubtful in my mind; as far back as the early 60s they had the divided grill with the "nose" in between. By 1990 the aero look became the thing and the grill had been scrunched down to 2 ducts with the nose. Around the same time is when BMW started stretching the kidney grill out to its current configuration. So with a quick glance they could have some similar facial features but when you get a good look they have their own styling characteristics. Speaking of styling, I am glad that Pontiac has moved away from the ribbed plasticrap on the sides - that always looked so ugly.

roadie
09-16-2004, 02:39 PM
If I was you I would stick to driving the 745li. :thumbup: You don't here anyone comparing that to a Crown Victoria.


You're right, no comparing 7er to a crown vic, but it is remarkably similar to the Buick Rendezvous minivan/suv. :yikes:

(Click on picture below)

kd2789mo
09-16-2004, 03:12 PM
[QUOTE=All the E60 owners will say that there is no comparison because no one wants to believe they paid $60,000 for a Pontiac. :rofl:[/QUOTE]

If they can afford to spend 60k for a car, they can call it a 'can of corn,' if they so choose.
I assure you, I can! :rolleyes:
I apologize, I thought your post was very well written, though found the last comment unnecessary.

dagoo98
09-17-2004, 06:51 AM
If they can afford to spend 60k for a car, they can call it a 'can of corn,' if they so choose.
I assure you, I can! :rolleyes:
I apologize, I thought your post was very well written, though found the last comment unnecessary.

I also have an 8 cylinder BMW which I purchased new so I also can afford a $60,000 automobile. I car has been paid for in full since the summer of 2003 and there is no reason for me not to upgrade to the E60 besides the fact that I don't like the car. If you looked at one of my previous post I expressed my interest in purchasing a new X5 4.8is if the E60 doesn't grow on me. I know you can call it whatever you want but I don't know about you but when I buy something especially for a large sum of money I tend to defend my purchase when people criticize it. I think that's just human nature. The connotation in your post seems as if you were trying to tell me I couldn't afford to buy a $60,000 car so I would no nothing about that. I'm not trying to argue about who makes more money because that's of no relevance in this argument but I think you are confused because it is not that I can't afford the 545 it is that I don't like it.

dagoo98
09-17-2004, 06:55 AM
You're right, no comparing 7er to a crown vic, but it is remarkably similar to the Buick Rendezvous minivan/suv. :yikes:

(Click on picture below)

You are kidding me right? What similarities do you see besides the fact that they are the same color. Everything is different, I won't even justify this claim by explaining how different they are. If you think so they are similar, OK.

roadie
09-17-2004, 07:14 AM
You are kidding me right? What similarities do you see besides the fact that they are the same color. Everything is different, I won't even justify this claim by explaining how different they are. If you think so they are similar, OK.

It's the eyebrow on the headlights.
I'm not kidding... :p

Should I go on about the rear - a-la-1998 Chrysler Cirrus?

dagoo98
09-17-2004, 07:24 AM
It's the eyebrow on the headlights.
I'm not kidding... :p

Should I go on about the rear - a-la-1998 Chrysler Sebring?

Oh, ok. By the way I see some similarity between a Lamborghini Gallardo and a Chevy Metro, They both have four tires and headlights. :tsk:

roadie
09-17-2004, 10:56 AM
Oh, ok. By the way I see some similarity between a Lamborghini Gallardo and a Chevy Metro, They both have four tires and headlights. :tsk:

Which year Chevy Metro? :rofl:

casper
09-17-2004, 01:25 PM
What is it exactly that you like about the E60? Do you like it because its a good looking car or because its the new model? Or maybe you like it because you bought one! maybe you thought everyone would like it like BMW's in the past. Some people just buy what's new because its new. These people don't have any kind of vision or appreciation for what actually goes into making a fine automobile but are just people who jump on the band wagon of what's popular. You just might be one of those people.

I have been a BMW user for over 22 years, since I rode in a 1972 2002 Tii I fell in love with the brand, I have owned most models including X5 and 740IL, and most recently went from an E39 to the E60. I like the style of the car, I think is has an aggressive and muscular stance, but I especially enjoy driving it, the engine, steering and handling on my 545i are great. I always have 3 cars in my house , and usually one of them is a mercedes because my wife likes mercedes, and I have owned E series with 5 series side by side since 1990 and I have always preferred the BMW. My wife has also become a convert when I traded her 1997 E320 on a 1999 740il, she now drives a 3.0 sport Z4 and loves that car. I never bought a BMW because they were popular, as a matter of fact, the 2002 was not popular back then, I buy them because I love to drive them and i have not found another brand that I enjoy more.

kd2789mo
09-17-2004, 03:10 PM
I am certain massive dollars are spent performing marketing studies which try to determine the order of priorities of what determines a buyer's final decision to buy, or not to buy a particular vehicle.
I don't know, though highly doubt appearance is first on the list.
Personally, I also own an '03 C5 AnivEd. It has an upgraded 400w Bose 10 speaker system, which I never turn on when driving with the top down. The engine is all the music I need!
Beemer owner/operators are discriminating drivers. I suppose the point can be (and has been) argued appearance weighs heavily. To me, and clearly to "Casper," it is secondary.

--a separate note to Dagoo98
my last comment was not as Interpreted. :yikes: My apologizes if I offended you. :cry:

dakoowa
09-18-2004, 02:53 PM
I was on the freeway yesterday on my way to lunch and about 4-5 cars ahead of me was an e60. The sad thing is that i didn't realize it until i got up really close. At first glance i thought it might have been a WRX. :eek:

LOL if anyone thinks that pontiac looks like the 5 series they are smoking crack.

I can't believe people are still whining about the new design 2 years later.

GET OVER IT PEOPLE! 5s can't even stay in stock in my local dealership....and I LOVE my 2004 black two tone interior 545. Best car I have EVER driven/owned.....and I've had multiple Mercedes/BMWs/Saabs etc in my life.

The old, ugly, stodgy 5 series is gone forever. I bought a new sedan for my girl about 3 years ago, and didn't even consider the old BMW 5 series.......instead we bought an E500. It looked much more modern, and was more appealing. The old 5 series looked like something straight out of 1991.....BORING. And god that inside dashboard....YUCK! Like an old SEIKO watch or something. No thanks.

Welcome to the new generation. If you don't like it, seriously, no big deal. Just move on to another model. Trust me, you aren't getting their design changed. Thousands of buyers love it...........and it is more consistent with a modern design. The old 5 looked like it could have been manufactured in the mid 80s.......oh wait most of it was!

Who the hell wants to drive their grandfather's car?

kd2789mo
09-18-2004, 03:09 PM
LOL if anyone thinks that pontiac looks like the 5 series they are smoking crack.

I can't believe people are still whining about the new design 2 years later.

GET OVER IT PEOPLE! 5s can't even stay in stock in my local dealership....and I LOVE my 2004 black two tone interior 545. Best car I have EVER driven/owned.....and I've had multiple Mercedes/BMWs/Saabs etc in my life.

The old, ugly, stodgy 5 series is gone forever. I bought a new sedan for my girl about 3 years ago, and didn't even consider the old BMW 5 series.......instead we bought an E500. It looked much more modern, and was more appealing. The old 5 series looked like something straight out of 1991.....BORING. And god that inside dashboard....YUCK! Like an old SEIKO watch or something. No thanks.

Welcome to the new generation. If you don't like it, seriously, no big deal. Just move on to another model. Trust me, you aren't getting their design changed. Thousands of buyers love it...........and it is more consistent with a modern design. The old 5 looked like it could have been manufactured in the mid 80s.......oh wait most of it was!

Who the hell wants to drive their grandfather's car?

:thumbup: HooRah! :thumbup:

defex
09-18-2004, 07:54 PM
:thumbup: HooRah! :thumbup:

I think it's beautiful. Now that my eyes have adjusted I realise now how out of date the older 5 series looks in comparison with the new. I'm simply inlove with it.

roadie
09-18-2004, 07:57 PM
LOL if anyone thinks that pontiac looks like the 5 series they are smoking crack.

I can't believe people are still whining about the new design 2 years later.

GET OVER IT PEOPLE! 5s can't even stay in stock in my local dealership....and I LOVE my 2004 black two tone interior 545. Best car I have EVER driven/owned.....and I've had multiple Mercedes/BMWs/Saabs etc in my life.

The old, ugly, stodgy 5 series is gone forever. I bought a new sedan for my girl about 3 years ago, and didn't even consider the old BMW 5 series.......instead we bought an E500. It looked much more modern, and was more appealing. The old 5 series looked like something straight out of 1991.....BORING. And god that inside dashboard....YUCK! Like an old SEIKO watch or something. No thanks.

Welcome to the new generation. If you don't like it, seriously, no big deal. Just move on to another model. Trust me, you aren't getting their design changed. Thousands of buyers love it...........and it is more consistent with a modern design. The old 5 looked like it could have been manufactured in the mid 80s.......oh wait most of it was!

Who the hell wants to drive their grandfather's car?

Local dealer here sells both MB's and BMW's. MB E class is outselling the 5er 3 to 1.
Inverse was true 4 years ago according to him. (when it was the old e and old 5)

dakoowa
09-18-2004, 08:36 PM
Local dealer here sells both MB's and BMW's. MB E class is outselling the 5er 3 to 1.
Inverse was true 4 years ago according to him. (when it was the old e and old 5)

<<Local dealer here sells both MB's and BMW's. MB E class is outselling the 5er 3 to 1.
Inverse was true 4 years ago according to him. (when it was the old e and old 5)>>

Not true, Mercedes has ALWAYS significantly outsold BMW worldwide......especially in NA and Europe.

roadie
09-18-2004, 09:16 PM
<<Local dealer here sells both MB's and BMW's. MB E class is outselling the 5er 3 to 1.
Inverse was true 4 years ago according to him. (when it was the old e and old 5)>>

Not true, Mercedes has ALWAYS significantly outsold BMW worldwide......especially in NA and Europe.

Not talking about total volume sales of the 2 manufacturers. I am talking about MY specific market for SPECIFIC car models - the E klasse being the competitor to the 5er.

The E39 5er outsold the W210 E Klasse.

Now, the W211 E Klasse outsells the E60 5er.

I like the W211 E Klasse - looks thoroughly European and keeps the MB heritage alive.

The E60 5er design is a radical departure from the BMW heritage. I am not talking about driving dynamics. The E60 driving dynamics is wonderful based upon my test drives.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Just because some of us prefer the E39 design or think the E60 has some similar silhouettes to the Pontiac Grand Prix does not mean we are ignorant, living in the past, or 'wrong'. Similarly, you are also entitled to your opinion that the E60 is a thoroughly beautiful wonderful design. :D

PS: Dakoowa - you write you have a 2 tone 545 - your profile says you own a 525?

dakoowa
09-18-2004, 09:22 PM
Not talking about total volume sales of the 2 manufacturers. I am talking about MY specific market for SPECIFIC car models - the E klasse being the competitor to the 5er.

The E39 5er outsold the W210 E Klasse.

Now, the W211 E Klasse outsells the E60 5er.

I like the W211 E Klasse - looks thoroughly European and keeps the MB heritage alive.

The E60 5er design is a radical departure from the BMW heritage. I am not talking about driving dynamics. The E60 driving dynamics is wonderful based upon my test drives.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Just because some of us prefer the E39 design or think the E60 has some similar silhouettes to the Pontiac Grand Prix does not mean we are ignorant, living in the past, or 'wrong'. Similarly, you are also entitled to your opinion that the E60 is a thoroughly beautiful wonderful design. :D

PS: Dakoowa - you write you have a 2 tone 545 - your profile says you own a 525?

Well I remember my father complaining about the new BMW design in the early 90s, while I liked the new one. :) Just think it's a generational thing.

I traded in my 525 for a 545. Check out my old posts.....wrote a long story about it. :)

roadie
09-18-2004, 09:27 PM
Well I remember my father complaining about the new BMW design in the early 90s, while I liked the new one. :) Just think it's a generational thing.

I traded in my 525 for a 545. Check out my old posts.....wrote a long story about it. :)

Ah yes - I see that now. Good choice to trade up to the 4.5 litre engine. :thumbup:

kdshapiro
09-19-2004, 08:25 AM
What is it exactly that you like about the E60? Do you like it because its a good looking car or because its the new model? Or maybe you like it because you bought one! maybe you thought everyone would like it like BMW's in the past. Some people just buy what's new because its new. These people don't have any kind of vision or appreciation for what actually goes into making a fine automobile but are just people who jump on the band wagon of what's popular. You just might be one of those people.
It's good looking.

dagoo98
09-20-2004, 07:11 AM
LOL if anyone thinks that pontiac looks like the 5 series they are smoking crack.

I can't believe people are still whining about the new design 2 years later.

GET OVER IT PEOPLE! 5s can't even stay in stock in my local dealership....and I LOVE my 2004 black two tone interior 545. Best car I have EVER driven/owned.....and I've had multiple Mercedes/BMWs/Saabs etc in my life.

The old, ugly, stodgy 5 series is gone forever. I bought a new sedan for my girl about 3 years ago, and didn't even consider the old BMW 5 series.......instead we bought an E500. It looked much more modern, and was more appealing. The old 5 series looked like something straight out of 1991.....BORING. And god that inside dashboard....YUCK! Like an old SEIKO watch or something. No thanks.

Welcome to the new generation. If you don't like it, seriously, no big deal. Just move on to another model. Trust me, you aren't getting their design changed. Thousands of buyers love it...........and it is more consistent with a modern design. The old 5 looked like it could have been manufactured in the mid 80s.......oh wait most of it was!

Who the hell wants to drive their grandfather's car?

To each its own, I don't like the looks of the new E60. My dealer invited me to test drive it and I love the way it drives but I don't like the way it looks. I'm sure if you change a few things on the outside like wheels, body kit, etc. you might have a good looking autotmobile but definitely not stock. The e500 is much better looking than the 545 and I would not have said that about hte prvious BMW and mecedes generations.

dagoo98
09-20-2004, 07:13 AM
Well I remember my father complaining about the new BMW design in the early 90s, while I liked the new one. :) Just think it's a generational thing.

I traded in my 525 for a 545. Check out my old posts.....wrote a long story about it. :)

I am 22 years old, I don't think that the generation younger than me can drive so I guess I'm the exceptional to your "generational thing" theory. :rofl:

dakoowa
09-20-2004, 08:16 AM
I am 22 years old, I don't think that the generation younger than me can drive so I guess I'm the exceptional to your "generational thing" theory. :rofl:

<<The e500 is much better looking than the 545 and I would not have said that about hte prvious BMW and mecedes generations.
>>

My wife has an E500, I have an E60. I appreciate both cars, but I like my 545 more. I think it's more of a "man's" car. Great cross between a sports car/sedan. The E500 is more of a family car.

Just my opinion.

dagoo98
09-20-2004, 09:01 AM
<<The e500 is much better looking than the 545 and I would not have said that about hte prvious BMW and mecedes generations.
>>

My wife has an E500, I have an E60. I appreciate both cars, but I like my 545 more. I think it's more of a "man's" car. Great cross between a sports car/sedan. The E500 is more of a family car.

Just my opinion.

That was my previous feeling about the e39 540 compared to the w210 e430 but I can't say that I feel the same way now.

roadie
09-21-2004, 06:46 AM
That was my previous feeling about the e39 540 compared to the w210 e430 but I can't say that I feel the same way now.

Wow, didn't know this thread would create such controversy. :p (of course I knew it would)

988 views and counting...

roadie
09-23-2004, 06:41 PM
That was my previous feeling about the e39 540 compared to the w210 e430 but I can't say that I feel the same way now.

Wait, does that mean you prefer the W211 to the E60?

roadie
05-01-2006, 11:45 AM
Revisiting this as it relates to the poll on this thread:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144907

fm_illuminatus
05-03-2006, 12:12 AM
Well, I DO see the similarity.

I think the new Bimmers just aren't going to age well.

:stupid: I don't think the new banglized styling will endure well. A good hint to this is that both lexus and mercedes have copied the new designs in different ways, and both of those brand's styling ages extremely poorly. Compare an early 90's lexus to an early 90's bimmer...