Compact hatches?

[swchang]

For the money, best compact hatch? My gf is considering a new car, and I'm trying to convince her into one. Under $20k would be best... It looks like Mazda3 and VW Golf are pretty much the only contenders out there, though.

Thoughts?

[Kaz]

Civic Si

Thems are languishing on lots so they can be had at a bargain.

A GTI with decent options will break 20k, as would a MCS, though you can stil get a few options on a non-S and be under $20k.

[HW]

mazda 3 has taken over the civic in popularity from what i've heard.

[blueguydotcom]

For the money, best compact hatch? My gf is considering a new car, and I'm trying to convince her into one. Under $20k would be best... It looks like Mazda3 and VW Golf are pretty much the only contenders out there, though.

Thoughts?

Mazda3 by leaps and bounds. Very solid, great handling, roomy, nice extras, great reliability and darn cool looking too.

I've owned Mazdas and VWs. I'll never own a [edit]VW again. And I just helped a friend by a Mazda3 S. Fantastic car for the dough. She got hers with aftermarket leather, and all features but navi/xenon for 19k.

[swchang]

Mazda3 by leaps and bounds. Very solid, great handling, roomy, nice extras, great reliability and darn cool looking too.

I've owned Mazdas and VWs. I'll never own a Mazda again. And I just helped a friend by a Mazda3 S. Fantastic car for the dough. She got hers with aftermarket leather, and all features but navi/xenon for 19k.

Never own another VW, you mean? :stickpoke

I like the Mazda too, and have heard terrible things about VW reliability, but the VW Golf would be slightly cheaper (it seems) and have a bit more cargo space. Is the Golf pretty bad in terms of reliability, esp compared to the Passat and Jetta?

[blueguydotcom]

Never own another VW, you mean? :stickpoke

I like the Mazda too, and have heard terrible things about VW reliability, but the VW Golf would be slightly cheaper (it seems) and have a bit more cargo space. Is the Golf pretty bad in terms of reliability, esp compared to the Passat and Jetta?

Cheaper? If so, just barely. Plus you must deal with that awful VW solid beam rear axle. I had to add a 28mm swaybar to my Jetta to get decent handling out if. The Mazda3 S on the otherhand feels scary solid in corners outa the box.

Plus the straight 4 door Golf has a really weak oil-burning engine - the 2.0.

[HW]

Cheaper? If so, just barely. Plus you must deal with that awful VW solid beam rear axle. I had to add a 28mm swaybar to my Jetta to get decent handling out if. The Mazda3 S on the otherhand feels scary solid in corners outa the box.

Plus the straight 4 door Golf has a really weak oil-burning engine - the 2.0.

:yikes: never knew that the golf still has a solid beam axle. :dunno:

[HW]

Mazda3 by leaps and bounds. Very solid, great handling, roomy, nice extras, great reliability and darn cool looking too.


and still made in japan!

[blueguydotcom]

:yikes: never knew that the golf still has a solid beam axle. :dunno:

Yep, the Jetta, Golf and Beetle all share the same underpinnings...all have a solid beam rear axle. The new ones have IRS, but they're not in the US of A yet.

[Kaz]

I've driven the 3, and it's pretty decent, but it's a bit long to call it a 'compact hatch.' It's more like a small wagon. The engine (I drove a 2.3 with MT) is good as long as you keep it under 4500 (it makes little power and lots of noise from there upto redline) which is unlike the Civic entirely, and the 3 has a relaly high beltline which makes it VERY hard to see out. I was afraid of hitting something when I backed it up, since you're basically looking at sky out the back glass.

The 3's price varies by about 10k from stripper to fully loaded (starts at 14 for a base 2.0, 24k for a loaded 2.3 with leather, xenons, NAV, etc.) so choose options carefully or else it'll start getting pricey.

I've yet to spend more than a couple of minutes in the Civic, and I'm not a big Civic fan in general, but in this class, it's worth looking at. Reliability might be a bit of an issue with the Si, as my buddy at Honda says that the UK-builts (Si and CR-V) aren't as reilable as Japan or US-built Hondas yet.

Golf/GTIs do have reliability and durability issues. I have a couple of friends with them that are about as old as my E46, and they have squeaks and rattles like crazy. And instead of bad regulators, Golfs have bad tracks, so the glass falls off and into the door cavity.

[LeucX3]

Ford Focus SVT? :dunno:

[Chris90]

Three friends have VWs - they certainly have problems, but those cars have character, especially the 20th edition GTI - and character is a rare commodity in new cars. Still, I'd take a Cooper S, or if you need space, the Mazda 3.

The new GTI coming out next summer looks sweet though - independent rear suspension, 207 lb ft of torque, probably great gas mileage with direct injection, and an awesome interior - they better not screw us out of the cool seats.

How about the Audi A3, coming out in May? It's the size of the Mazda 3, great engine (see the GTI above), great interior. Downside is $25k for the front drive cloth version.

Focus SVT was a great driver's car, but it's discontinued.

[swchang]

Three friends have VWs - they certainly have problems, but those cars have character, especially the 20th edition GTI - and character is a rare commodity in new cars. Still, I'd take a Cooper S, or if you need space, the Mazda 3.

The new GTI coming out next summer looks sweet though - independent rear suspension, 207 lb ft of torque, probably great gas mileage with direct injection, and an awesome interior - they better not screw us out of the cool seats.

How about the Audi A3, coming out in May? It's the size of the Mazda 3, great engine (see the GTI above), great interior. Downside is $25k for the front drive cloth version.

Focus SVT was a great driver's car, but it's discontinued.

A3 would be great, but I don't think her parents would want to spring for it.

If BMW doesn't bring the 1er over here, I think my next non-convertible car will have to be an A3, despite Audi (un)reliability.

[Kaz]

Ford Focus SVT? :dunno:

Are there any left? They stopped making those months ago.

And it has Focus reliability...

[elbert]

A3 would be great, but I don't think her parents would want to spring for it.

If BMW doesn't bring the 1er over here, I think my next non-convertible car will have to be an A3, despite Audi (un)reliability.

I'd rather get a Mazda3 or an MCS...Audi's new corporate grille looks like ass.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37527&stc=1

[OBS3SSION]

Man... people here hate VWs. I've owned 5 VWs (2 Jettas and 3 Passats) and would go back again. Regardless... if a GTI is out, the Mazda3 is a sweet car. It looks sharp, has awesome handling... but is kinda lethargic in the go department. I wonder if/when the Mazdaspeed3 will be out?

[swchang]

Perhaps I neglected to mention that safety, low cost, both initial and upkeep, high dependability and reliability, and cargo space are priorities here. Sportiness and the such are lower down the list...

[LeucX3]

Man... people here hate VWs. I've owned 5 VWs (2 Jettas and 3 Passats) and would go back again. Regardless... if a GTI is out, the Mazda3 is a sweet car. It looks sharp, has awesome handling... but is kinda lethargic in the go department. I wonder if/when the Mazdaspeed3 will be out?
I've had two VW's: 96 Jetta GLX and an 01 GTI GLX

I really liked both of them, no real complaints and the only problem i had was fixed under warranty.

[blueguydotcom]

I've had two VW's: 96 Jetta GLX and an 01 GTI GLX

I really liked both of them, no real complaints and the only problem i had was fixed under warranty.

We could go into anecdotes or simply point to the reliability ratings. VW's statisically as bad as Korean makes like Kia.

FWIW, my Jetta in 2 years visited the dealer ten times for everything from a broken AC, to bad electrical, to bad coils to broken interior parts to rattles. That car was a nightmare. Now when I mentioned VW aloud I spit to the side and make the sign of the cross. :angel:

[swchang]

So no compact Japanese hatches other than Mazda3 and Civic Si?

[AK]

I've driven the 3, and it's pretty decent, but it's a bit long to call it a 'compact hatch.' It's more like a small wagon. The engine (I drove a 2.3 with MT) is good as long as you keep it under 4500 (it makes little power and lots of noise from there upto redline) which is unlike the Civic entirely, and the 3 has a relaly high beltline which makes it VERY hard to see out. I was afraid of hitting something when I backed it up, since you're basically looking at sky out the back glass.

The 3's price varies by about 10k from stripper to fully loaded (starts at 14 for a base 2.0, 24k for a loaded 2.3 with leather, xenons, NAV, etc.) so choose options carefully or else it'll start getting pricey.


FWIW, I disagree with your assessment of the Mazda3 (which I recently bought and have driven for about 2500 miles now as a daily driver). The engine is very smooth for a 4-banger (the 2.3 has balance shafts) and pulls steadily up to 6500. People have said it feels slower than the older Protege5 but in reality it's much quicker (the smooth engine is to blame). It handles great and has a solid, quiet feel that seems out of place given the price.

My nitpicks about the 3: gas mileage is less than expected (23-25mpg mixed, EPA estimate is 25city/32hwy, altho my last tank netted >26mpg), seats are not the most comfortable (YMMV), and the center console intrudes on your right leg (little knee room). Some interior plastics are also prone to scuff marks (which seem easily removed, thankfully). A/C system is not the strongest.

FWIW, mine has these options: ABS/Side Airbag pkg, Xenon lights/Tire Pressure Monitor package and the DVD navigation system. Sticker was about $20.6K. I think I paid $19.8K before the $250 rev-it-up and $500 college grad rebates were applied.

http://www.corystarr.com/ak/3m/index.html

[BlackChrome]

How about a Scion tC?

It's inexpensive, has all the major features, a decent engine, Toyota quality/dealer network, and looks all right.

[Kaz]

FWIW, I disagree with your assessment of the Mazda3 (which I recently bought and have driven for about 2500 miles now as a daily driver). The engine is very smooth for a 4-banger (the 2.3 has balance shafts) and pulls steadily up to 6500. People have said it feels slower than the older Protege5 but in reality it's much quicker (the smooth engine is to blame). It handles great and has a solid, quiet feel that seems out of place given the price.
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The owner thought the car was REALLY slow (I didn't think it was that bad) but it really felt off-power at high RPMs. Reminiscent (but much smoother) of the old KA24DE that Altimas and 240SXs used to have. Great torque below 4500, not much above, compared to the 4G64 in my old Galant (which was also a big 2.4l L4, with 2 balance shafts) that was merely OK below 4000, but really woke up above that.

Unfortunately, this tends to happen on large 4-bangers. I'd like to drive a 2.0 Mazda3 to see if the smaller engine behaves differently.

[AK]

The owner thought the car was REALLY slow (I didn't think it was that bad) but it really felt off-power at high RPMs. Reminiscent (but much smoother) of the old KA24DE that Altimas and 240SXs used to have. Great torque below 4500, not much above, compared to the 4G64 in my old Galant (which was also a big 2.4l L4, with 2 balance shafts) that was merely OK below 4000, but really woke up above that.

Unfortunately, this tends to happen on large 4-bangers. I'd like to drive a 2.0 Mazda3 to see if the smaller engine behaves differently.

I've spoken with another Mazda3 owner who upgraded from a Protege5. He said the 3 felt slower than the P5 but obviously that's not the case. Everything is relative, though. I used to drive a 6-speed 540i so of course the 3M is "slow". FWIW, the 2.3 is an undersquare engine (stroke measures higher than bore) so it will feel more torquey at lower RPM based on just that.

[Chris90]

How about a Scion tC?

It's inexpensive, has all the major features, a decent engine, Toyota quality/dealer network, and looks all right.

Scion is nice, but if you're over 6', you can't fit - not even close for me (6'3").

I've read a few European reviews (like Autocar) of the A3 Sportsback and they say while it handles well, there is absolutely no road feel through any of the controls, so it's no fun to drive. They said "if you love to drive, this is not the car for you". Scratch that from my list. Hopefully the new Golf GTi won't be as lame to drive.

[Llando88]

Yep, the Jetta, Golf and Beetle all share the same underpinnings...all have a solid beam rear axle. The new ones have IRS, but they're not in the US of A yet.

Blue, erm, not quite sure that's fair to the Golf: According to my copy of Handling and Roadholding: Car Suspension at Work (Daniels, 1988) the VW Golf has had independent rear suspension via semi-trailing arms since inception:

"...A major development of the 70s, initiated by Volkswagen but widely copied, is the torsion-beam axle. When the Golf first appeared, it was equipped with a trailing-arm rear suspension in which the arms were joined by a semi-rigid beam. It quickly transpired - to judge by the evidence of its widespread copying - that this was a brilliant notion. In particular, it combined two of the better features of the trailing arm and the dead axle: the force camber change of the former, and the high roll centre of the latter. It thus incorporated both of the features which reduced basic understeer."

So I would take gentle issue with your statement that only "new" Golf have IRS :)

[Jeff_DML]

Scion is nice, but if you're over 6', you can't fit - not even close for me (6'3").

I've read a few European reviews (like Autocar) of the A3 Sportsback and they say while it handles well, there is absolutely no road feel through any of the controls, so it's no fun to drive. They said "if you love to drive, this is not the car for you". Scratch that from my list. Hopefully the new Golf GTi won't be as lame to drive.

did someone say GTi :D , good review from a biased source

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_984.shtml

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/uploads/010__scaled_600_007.jpg

[blueguydotcom]

Blue, erm, not quite sure that's fair to the Golf: According to my copy of Handling and Roadholding: Car Suspension at Work (Daniels, 1988) the VW Golf has had independent rear suspension via semi-trailing arms since inception:

The Golf as of 2004 has a solid beam rear axle. Almost all Mk4 (the platform) VWs feature the solid rear beam. Some VW people want to say the Torsion isn't a solid beam. If looks like a duxk, quacks like a duck and causes the car to bounce when corning on uneven pavement it's a solid beam rear axle.


So I would take gentle issue with your statement that only "new" Golf have IRS :)

In the US, with the exception of the AWD R32, we haven't seen a Mk4 with IRS.