Brake pads for my first track event (driver school)

[rumratt]

I'm doing my first driver school this spring, and I need to decide what to do about brake pads...

Pinecone says (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=423394&postcount=11), "If you are just getting started in tracking, just use what you have."

But Elbert says (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1024417&postcount=13), "I definitely wouldn't use the OE pads." He doesn't want me to do what Andy did (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1024343&postcount=12)

I will probably suck and won't be pushing the car that fast into corners on my first track event, so I'm thinking of sticking with the OEM pads if others have done this and had no problems (besides Andy :eek: )

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

It took me just a few minutes of my first session to start getting pad fade. when I took the M3 out for the first time. My wagon started fading pretty badly halfway through my first day ever.

Sure, you're lighter and slower than the M3 (and way lighter than the wagon), but is it really worth it?

[rumratt]

but is it really worth it?

Nope. You may have just convinced me.

Care to make a pad recommendation? I'd swap them on for the event, and back off afterwards.

[TD]

At the one drivers school I attended, I had no problem with my OEM brakes.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

PFC97s are nice. Front only, and don't let the dust sit if it gets wet.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

At the one drivers school I attended, I had no problem with my OEM brakes.
You drove too slow.

[TD]

Yes.

[TD]

You drove too slow.
You can say that, but not every novice is that blindly fearless. And I wasn't going that slow.

[Elwood]

I'm doing my first driver school this spring, and I need to decide what to do about brake pads...

Pinecone says (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=423394&postcount=11), "If you are just getting started in tracking, just use what you have."

But Elbert says (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1024417&postcount=13), "I definitely wouldn't use the OE pads." He doesn't want me to do what Andy did (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1024343&postcount=12)

I will probably suck and won't be pushing the car that fast into corners on my first track event, so I'm thinking of sticking with the OEM pads if others have done this and had no problems (besides Andy :eek: )
I say get the proper pad for the application. They're relatively cheap and installation is simple. Either way, I'd want an extra set on hand just in case.

[doeboy]

I say stick to OEM first and see how it feels first. If you aren't reaching the OEM pads limits, needn't even bother with swapping them. Part of the learning process is getting a good feel for the car and learning to identify when things don't feel right. Start slow and work your way up on speed. When you go faster, you will become harder on the brakes most likely, and they may start to show signs of fade or whatever. When that happens, if you can identify that it is happening, take it down a notch. Then you know you reached the OEM brakes' limits and can swap to better pads if you so choose.

Common mistakes for a lot of beginners are overdriving the car's and driver's abilities. (Not saying you're gonna suck... just that it is common for someone to go out the first time and think they can write bigger checks than they and their car can cash and end up getting an ego check) Stay within the limits and explore how the car feels... kick it up a notch as you become more comfortable. If you get to a point where you're not sure anymore, kick it down a notch until you feel comfortable. THEN think about modifications.

Just my 0.02...

[Raffi]

What doeboy said. Your OEM pads are VERY capable, especially for a track beginner. Learn how to identify your pad's limits, if you even get there at your first school. Learning to modulate your brake pads (whatever they may be) to stay within their limits is a great skill to have.

[cruztopless]

I say stick to OEM first and see how it feels first. If you aren't reaching the OEM pads limits, needn't even bother with swapping them. Part of the learning process is getting a good feel for the car and learning to identify when things don't feel right. Start slow and work your way up on speed. When you go faster, you will become harder on the brakes most likely, and they may start to show signs of fade or whatever. When that happens, if you can identify that it is happening, take it down a notch. Then you know you reached the OEM brakes' limits and can swap to better pads if you so choose.

Common mistakes for a lot of beginners are overdriving the car's and driver's abilities. (Not saying you're gonna suck... just that it is common for someone to go out the first time and think they can write bigger checks than they and their car can cash and end up getting an ego check) Stay within the limits and explore how the car feels... kick it up a notch as you become more comfortable. If you get to a point where you're not sure anymore, kick it down a notch until you feel comfortable. THEN think about modifications.

Just my 0.02...
:thumbup:

[doeboy]

FWIW... I've done about 8 HPDEs on OEM pads. Certain tracks are harder on the brakes than others. I can feel when pad fade begins to set in and I adjust my braking zones to compensate and keep the brakes from giving out (or try my best to anyways... ).

[elbert]

Common mistakes for a lot of beginners are overdriving the car's and driver's abilities. (Not saying you're gonna suck... just that it is common for someone to go out the first time and think they can write bigger checks than they and their car can cash and end up getting an ego check) Stay within the limits and explore how the car feels... kick it up a notch as you become more comfortable. If you get to a point where you're not sure anymore, kick it down a notch until you feel comfortable. THEN think about modifications.


I think learning the limits (not just the brakes, but tires and driver as well) is something that can be worked on at the second school. His first school should be spent getting familiar with the procedures, learning the line, and keeping his eyes up. Brakes should be the last thing to worry about, so why not get a safety margin with some better pads. You left coasters are assuming that it is a performance upgrade--it's not, I'm thinking it is more of a safety issue.

No need to get full race pads, just decent high performance pads which will be less than 100 bucks.

[Raffi]

I think learning the limits (not just the brakes, but tires and driver as well) is something that can be worked on at the second school. His first school should be spent getting familiar with the procedures, learning the line, and keeping his eyes up. Brakes should be the last thing to worry about, so why not get a safety margin with some better pads. You left coasters are assuming that it is a performance upgrade--it's not, I'm thinking it is more of a safety issue.

No need to get full race pads, just decent high performance pads which will be less than 100 bucks.
Doeboy and I are also trying to say that OEM pads are very good and will provide plenty of a safety margin for even the most aggressive first-timer.

[rumratt]

Doeboy and I are also trying to say that OEM pads are very good and will provide plenty of a safety margin for even the most aggressive first-timer.


Wow, what a hot debate. I don't feel as bad being lost when even the veterans don't agree. :)

Raffi, Andy did have a bad experience with the OEM's at his first session, so it's not impossible. I'm guessing I won't be driving as aggressively as he was, and will be focusing on learning the correct line, etc, this is the only reason I'm not excluding the idea of OEM.

[rjn]

If you're running street rubber, your OEM pads will be fine. The only safety issue is having plenty of pad and recently changed DOT 4 brake fluid.

If it's your first school, you should be on street tires anyway

Now when you're ready for track pads, get a set of Hawk HT10s (Bimmerworld has them) - more torque than PFCs and the dust washes off to boot.

rjn
midwest bmwcca instructor

[rumratt]

Yep, I'll be on street rubber.

I should check my current pads. I may need to buy something anyway (if they're too low for the track, but not low enough for BMW to replace them) in which case I might as well put on some track pads.

OK, dumb question #325. How much OEM pad is "enough"? :eek:

[Elwood]

Yep, I'll be on street rubber.

I should check my current pads. I may need to buy something anyway (if they're too low for the track, but not low enough for BMW to replace them) in which case I might as well put on some track pads.

OK, dumb question #325. How much OEM pad is "enough"? :eek:
IIRC minimum/replacement thickness under maintenace is 3mm. How much is enough is ????

[rjn]

Interesting, thanks. I don't think I'd want to show up to the track with 3.5mm.
Given the cost of a track weekend, I would show up with fresh (OEM) type pads. You sure don't want to have to pack up with two sessions to go 'cause you didn't. They don't cost that much. You can buy track pads, but plan on spending around $150 per axle if you go that route.

rjn

[rumratt]

Given the cost of a track weekend, I would show up with fresh (OEM) type pads. You sure don't want to have to pack up with two sessions to go 'cause you didn't. They don't cost that much. You can buy track pads, but plan on spending around $150 per axle if you go that route.


Thanks.

If I do decide to go with track(ish) pads, Nick (and others) have recommended leaving the rear pads OEM. Do you (and your other instructors) encourage/discourage this in general?

[rjn]

I definitely wouldn't encourage mixed compounds, as one of the major benefits of the school is learning how to control your car at the limit - if you're running split compounds at the track but not on the street, your track experience won't transfer as directly to the street, because the effective brake bias of your car will be different. If you're gonna go...

That said, if this is your first school and you're new to performance driving, it is likely all your braking will be in a straight line (not trailing into the corners), so you could probably get away with it.

Actually, the biggest braking issue with recent bmws is insufficient airflow to the front calipers, which is why there are so many aftermarket brake ducting kits.

It really is unusual to have a problem with a well maintained stock 3 series in the novice run groups

hth

[rumratt]

I just checked my front pads.. Looked like about 8mm left. There's no way they'll be replaced under the maintenance plan in the immediate future, so I'll definitely be buying buying something before the school.

Hmmm, I could bring some new race(ish) pads with me, but start out with the existing OEM's and see how they hold up after the first session. As long as I didn't mess up the rotors before swapping them I'd be OK.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

You shouldn't run the same compound front and rear unless you can change the brake bias of the car. If you look at the OEM pads, you will see that they are different compounds (different manufacturers, actually, I think). A little front bias is a good thing for safety margin. Too much rear brake and the car will try to swap ends.

The last time I ran the same compound all around, I ended up making substantial steering corrections on the brakes at 140MPH. Not pleasant.

[Andre Yew]

I voted for OEM pads as well. I've done all my schools on the stock pads and rotors, and don't really intend to use non-stock pads for the forseeable future, since the point of going to track school for me is to become a better everyday driver. Yes, they fade, but you learn to deal with that. For example, energy is proportional to the square of velocity, so coasting at the end of a straightaway and not building up speed will greatly help your brakes. Proper braking technique will also help preserve your brakes. If you have bad technique or are otherwise asking too much of your braking system, better pads will just prolong and not eliminate what you have to inevitably face: a friend with a Nissan 350Z Track with the racing style Brembo calipers, StopTech floating-rotor replacements, Hawk HPS+ pads, and Motul brake fluid recently had very bad pad fade halfway through the day at Laguna Seca on a fairly cool day with a wet track.

How much brake pad you want to have for a school depends on the track. For example, I would not go to Laguna Seca or California Speedway with anything less than 90 percent of my pads, because both tracks are very hard on brakes, and thinner pads tend to wear and fade faster. Since I'm using stock pads, and change my own pads, it's pretty cheap insurance.

--Andre

[doeboy]

Wow, what a hot debate. I don't feel as bad being lost when even the veterans don't agree. :)

Raffi, Andy did have a bad experience with the OEM's at his first session, so it's not impossible. I'm guessing I won't be driving as aggressively as he was, and will be focusing on learning the correct line, etc, this is the only reason I'm not excluding the idea of OEM.

True... We're not saying it's impossible. It's easy to exceed the OEM pad's operating range if I really wanted to. I want to learn how my vehicle handles... what it's limits are and what my limits are as a driver. Since the equipment doesn't adapt for us, we must adapt to the equipment sometimes to keep things operating properly. Myself and several others here have been using OEM constantly and have never had major issues. Depends on each individual's driving style I suppose.

Every driver is different so it's hard to say what'll work for you. Some are harder on their equipment, some are more conservative. I'd say I am more conservative, as you can probably tell. But you said it's your first school and you'll be concentrating on learning the line, etc etc... so... that said... SPEED should not be a major concern. Just keep aware of your surroundings so when people come up on you, you can let them by. What instructors told me a lot was not to worry about going fast. Just concentrate on getting the correct line, getting your car at the proper speed for a turn, and being smooth in all inputs. If you do that, the speed will naturally come. And at least for me, this advice is working pretty well so far.

Some people approach HPDEs as if they're out there racing trying to put in the best hotlap they can.... but you know what... it's an HPDE... not a competitive event... the main point is to build experience and work on perfecting your driving. Don't worry about being fast. This is where most people end up over-driving their equipment. (Just from what I've seen.)

So I don't know that it's really a debate or anyone is really arguing... we're just sharing our own opinions/experiences since you asked for advice. :)

[doeboy]

I just checked my front pads.. Looked like about 8mm left. There's no way they'll be replaced under the maintenance plan in the immediate future, so I'll definitely be buying buying something before the school.

Hmmm, I could bring some new race(ish) pads with me, but start out with the existing OEM's and see how they hold up after the first session. As long as I didn't mess up the rotors before swapping them I'd be OK.

8mm is most likely fine. What kind of track will you be on? FWIW... I started my last HPDE with 5mm pad left in hot weather (which eats up pad even quicker) and I still had pad left at the end (though it was about time to replace the pads after the school). :)

Yeah that's a good idea... bring spare pads.. try the OEM... if you feel it's not working out for you, swap the pads. Besides... if you keep doing this, chances are you'll want to swap pads eventually so it can't hurt just to have a new set of whatever pads you choose as spare parts. Better to have the extra parts with you than to not have'em and find out you need'em later...

[doeboy]

I voted for OEM pads as well. I've done all my schools on the stock pads and rotors, and don't really intend to use non-stock pads for the forseeable future, since the point of going to track school for me is to become a better everyday driver. Yes, they fade, but you learn to deal with that. For example, energy is proportional to the square of velocity, so coasting at the end of a straightaway and not building up speed will greatly help your brakes. Proper braking technique will also help preserve your brakes. If you have bad technique or are otherwise asking too much of your braking system, better pads will just prolong and not eliminate what you have to inevitably face:

Well put... I agree.

a friend with a Nissan 350Z Track with the racing style Brembo calipers, StopTech floating-rotor replacements, Hawk HPS+ pads, and Motul brake fluid recently had very bad pad fade halfway through the day at Laguna Seca on a fairly cool day with a wet track.

The 350Z seems to have cooling issues in stock form regardless of what package the car is equipped with. There are no ducts whatsoever from what I could see on that car. At Buttonwillow we had 2 350Zs.... one was a Track Edition (Brembo) and the other was an Enthusiast's Edition (no brembos). BOTH had brake temp related issues.

How much brake pad you want to have for a school depends on the track. For example, I would not go to Laguna Seca or California Speedway with anything less than 90 percent of my pads, because both tracks are very hard on brakes, and thinner pads tend to wear and fade faster. Since I'm using stock pads, and change my own pads, it's pretty cheap insurance.


Agree... tracks that have very high speed sections that transition to tight twisties and long downhill sections that also get very fast will be more demanding on the brakes.

Thinner pads wear and fade faster because they have less capacity for heat. With a thicker pad, you have a little bit longer before you'll get fade because the bigger chunk of material takes longer to heat up to the point where the pad starts wearing quicker or the heat gets to your calipers to boil your fluid. Makes for a better insulator essentially.... Exceeding the Max operating temp of a particular pad is what will start eating away at the pad really really fast. (At least in the case of OEM pads)

I did California Speedway twice and Laguna Seca on the same pads and went in for Oil service afterwards... (about 14K miles) the pads as measured by the techs AFTER these schools were 8-10mm thick... I think brand new the the pads are at about 13-15mm? (wild guess) :dunno:

[Raffi]

What doeboy said - again! :D

8mm should be plenty to get you through a school, and then some.

Whoever cooks his brakes at his first-ever track event is probably being too aggressive. It's too easy to blame the hardware instead of focusing on the software. OEM E46 M3 pads are great for your needs for now and for a long time to come.

[rumratt]

Thanks for the detailed replies folks. :thumbup:

Doeboy, I'll be going to Limerock Park. I'm not sure what kind of rep that track has, but I think it's relatively short (and maybe slow? I don't know). I've heard some say it's a good learning track, but I don't know why they said that.

And it's only a 1-day school. :( There's a 2-day school if I want to drive to West Virginia :eek:

[Andy]

Whoever cooks his brakes at his first-ever track event is probably being too aggressive.
Yes, it was my first HPDE and yes, I did overcook my OEM pads, but FWIW, my instructor recommended that I not run in the novice group next time. He told me that I would easily be running at the top of the "C" group. I’m not saying that to be boastful in any way, just stating that for my driving style, the OEM pads did not hold up. For my next HPDE, I’ll either be on HP+ or the HT10s.

Matt, I’d recommend that you bring a set of Hawk HP+ pads with you to the track, but start out on your OEM pads and see how they hold up to your driving style. If you find that you’re using them up, switch over to the Hawk pads. Even if you don’t use the Hawk pads at your first event, you’ll eventually want to switch to them for future HPDE as you start to push harder on the track.

All this talk about HPDEs is making me antsy. Spring can not come fast enough!!

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

I don't know why anyone even thinks about using anything short of a PFC97 for the track. Maybe it's just me, but I drive one hell of a lot better and more consistently with brakes that I'm fairly confident will work.

(Especially now that I have experienced catastrophic pad fade at high speed.)

As far as I'm concerned, if the track you're using lets you get above 105 MPH, you have no business driving out there on street pads. Let me tell you, at my first track school, having to spend half a day cruising down the straights at 85MPH, waving people by because my brakes couldn't take it sucked. And that was on a track that was long enough that MY WAGON could hit 117MPH down the main straight.

The other reason you should have really good brakes is because newbies tend to cook their brakes a lot more than moderately experienced drivers. They tend to brake very early and end up dragging the brakes a lot. This leads to pad fade even sooner.

I frankly can't understand why people are so adamantly advising you NOT to spend a very small amount of money on your own SAFETY, and that of your instructor. It's stupid.

[Elwood]

Spring can not come fast enough!!
NJ BMWCCA Alken Invitational Autocross March 20th

Half autox, half bachelor party. ;) :fingers:

[Andy]

NJ BMWCCA Alken Invitational Autocross March 20th

Half autox, half bachelor party. ;) :fingers:
Cool!! :thumbup: So who's getting married?

[Andre Yew]

The 350Z seems to have cooling issues in stock form regardless of what package the car is equipped with. There are no ducts whatsoever from what I could see on that car. At Buttonwillow we had 2 350Zs.... one was a Track Edition (Brembo) and the other was an Enthusiast's Edition (no brembos). BOTH had brake temp related issues.


The Track model is the same friend who upgraded to HP+, StopTech rotors, etc. and still found fade halfway through the day at Laguna Seca. When we were changing out his brakes, we got to look around his wheel well, and saw all these slats around the front, but no big vent. Interestingly, the fade came at turn 11, and was very sudden. He spent the rest of the day alternately doing fast and slow laps, and that helped a lot. He's now thinking about race pads, and all the maintenance that entails with not only the swapping, but also the bed-in.

BTW, just to rant a bit more, I'm really disappointed in the Track model's Brembo brakes, and I get the feeling that other cars with the Brembo bling aren't very different. The rotors are ridiculously expensive (over $500 per rotor, and the rears cost more!), the pads are moderately expensive (over $100 per axle for the Brembo-branded pads), the rotor maintenance is a PITA (hardline connected between the caliper and suspension mounting point, so it's hard to move out of the way of the rotor), the rotors are one-piece, non-vaned designs, the pads wear out very quickly, and the brakes don't really work that well. The StopTech OEM replacement rotors for the track model cost less than half the OEM cost, are two-piece with aluminum hats, floating rotors, and pumping vanes. Adding to the PITA, though not the fault of the car, was our bad luck in getting a batch of HP+ with backing plates some 1 mm too long, so we had to grind down the sides before they fit.

Anyway, I think there are going to be a whole lot of angry customers in a year or two when they go in for their brake change for all these cars that come with racing-style brakes.

--Andre

[doeboy]

I don't know why anyone even thinks about using anything short of a PFC97 for the track. Maybe it's just me, but I drive one hell of a lot better and more consistently with brakes that I'm fairly confident will work.

(Especially now that I have experienced catastrophic pad fade at high speed.)

As far as I'm concerned, if the track you're using lets you get above 105 MPH, you have no business driving out there on street pads. Let me tell you, at my first track school, having to spend half a day cruising down the straights at 85MPH, waving people by because my brakes couldn't take it sucked. And that was on a track that was long enough that MY WAGON could hit 117MPH down the main straight.

The other reason you should have really good brakes is because newbies tend to cook their brakes a lot more than moderately experienced drivers. They tend to brake very early and end up dragging the brakes a lot. This leads to pad fade even sooner.

I frankly can't understand why people are so adamantly advising you NOT to spend a very small amount of money on your own SAFETY, and that of your instructor. It's stupid.

Um... I've gotten to 120mph on California Speedway going from 120mph to 30mph over and over and have not had major issues with pad degradation... Most tracks I've been on allow me to go over 105 and I've not had significant pad issues. :dunno:

There have been times where I will get to the point of early pad fade... at which point I simply ease up and try not to push as hard to allow the brakes enough cooling to come back... I'm at the point where OEM is still fine for me but have been thinking about pads as of late... and I've done 8 schools...

And I'd like to think I'm fairly consistent even on OEM pads... :dunno:

We're not saying he shouldn't buy new pads... he may end up deciding he wants/needs them. But we're only suggesting he try the OEM pads and see.

Every driver is different... you found the OEM pads weren't holding up to your driving style.. that's fine... those of us who say try out the OEM pads first are saying from our experience they can hold up just fine depending on ones driving style.

[doeboy]

Thanks for the detailed replies folks. :thumbup:

Doeboy, I'll be going to Limerock Park. I'm not sure what kind of rep that track has, but I think it's relatively short (and maybe slow? I don't know). I've heard some say it's a good learning track, but I don't know why they said that.

And it's only a 1-day school. :( There's a 2-day school if I want to drive to West Virginia :eek:

Not too familiar with Lime Rock Park since I'm over on the left coast.

A good beginner's track has a reasonable amount of turns, reasonably technical but not too complex, isn't too big so you can't get your speed up too high, and has plenty of runoff area should you ever need to use it.

A good learning track for has a nice variety of turns (perhaps even more variety than what I'd consider a good beginner's track), banking and elevation changes so you can experience and practice a wide range of different scenarios you'll run into when driving. Even more technical. These may or may not be more intimidating for the average beginner too. May or may not have a lot of run-off but more runoff space is always better. :)

[rumratt]

It's a 1.5 mile course. It doesn't look all that turn-y to me, actually.

http://www.limerock.com/images/map2_large.jpg

[doeboy]

The Track model is the same friend who upgraded to HP+, StopTech rotors, etc. and still found fade halfway through the day at Laguna Seca. When we were changing out his brakes, we got to look around his wheel well, and saw all these slats around the front, but no big vent. Interestingly, the fade came at turn 11, and was very sudden. He spent the rest of the day alternately doing fast and slow laps, and that helped a lot. He's now thinking about race pads, and all the maintenance that entails with not only the swapping, but also the bed-in.

My cousin has a 350Z and I think he said those slats are more for directing air to the radiator or something. A common thing 350Z guys do is to cut part of the slats so that some more air can enter the wheel well for brake cooling. (or so I'm told)

BTW, just to rant a bit more, I'm really disappointed in the Track model's Brembo brakes, and I get the feeling that other cars with the Brembo bling aren't very different. The rotors are ridiculously expensive (over $500 per rotor, and the rears cost more!), the pads are moderately expensive (over $100 per axle for the Brembo-branded pads), the rotor maintenance is a PITA (hardline connected between the caliper and suspension mounting point, so it's hard to move out of the way of the rotor), the rotors are one-piece, non-vaned designs, the pads wear out very quickly, and the brakes don't really work that well. The StopTech OEM replacement rotors for the track model cost less than half the OEM cost, are two-piece with aluminum hats, floating rotors, and pumping vanes. Adding to the PITA, though not the fault of the car, was our bad luck in getting a batch of HP+ with backing plates some 1 mm too long, so we had to grind down the sides before they fit.

Right... because they're using "street" style rotors and pads for the average car... it's usually the other equipment like pads and rotors that are being installed from the factory with such cars that aren't up to snuff. The calipers make less of a difference IMO and are just made to look a little pretty for "bling". Did you get a chance to see HACK's Z car at the last Buttonwillow school? The rears had NO pad left. At under 5000 miles? :yikes:

The heard the other guy who had the track edition boiled his brake fluid to the point it was foaming or bubbling out when he bled them. :eek:

The rears have some serious cooling issues too... maybe even moreso than the fronts.

Anyway, I think there are going to be a whole lot of angry customers in a year or two when they go in for their brake change for all these cars that come with racing-style brakes.

Wake-up call for people... just because the calipers are painted and say Brembo on them... it doesn't mean you'll be able to stop on a dime over and over... :) especially on Brembos that come from the factory. (Unless you have a reasonably performance oriented car). Brembos on econo-boxes are basically pure bling from the factory. It sucks... but if that's what sells or makes their cars more appealing... that's what they'll market... sad isn't it.... :(

[doeboy]

It's a 1.5 mile course. It doesn't look all that turn-y to me, actually.

That doesn't look overly complex... which for a beginner is a good thing IMO... sort of gives you time to take things in and process. My first couple of schools I was so busy figuring out the line and what I was doing that the straights were a welcome thing to allow me to gather my thoughts and recompose myself for the next turn. There's a lot of information to take in on track. Until one's mind is trained to gather and process all that information... you probably don't want to overwhelm yourself which can lead to distraction, etc....

Tracks with complicated turn complexes that string together several turns are highly technical and can be quite intimidating. This seems to let you work on one turn... give a slight mental break in the straights as you come up to the next. Looks like a pretty good beginners track to me based on that but since I've never been there... :dunno:

Speed doesn't look like it'll be that big of an issue. One braking technique I found works quite well for a beginner is to get most of your braking done early and slowly ease up as you approach turn-in. This ends up giving you more time to let the brakes absorb the most energy in the straight. If you do have any fade... you are still going straight and can just go off straight if you need to. The key is finding that balance between braking early and hard and easing off... and braking too hard too early so you aren't going into the turn at a Sunday drive's pace...

[PhilH]

I thought that the Jefferson Circuit at Summit Point was a great track to do my first school at. It was really built for driver's education and not necessarily for racing, so it's relatively low speed (about 90 mph or so), has good runoff room, has some technical turns (double apex...), and they usually run at the skidpad there where you can learn a lot very quickly.

However, looking at the NJ CCA schedule, I don't see the usual 3 day weekend event with the Delaware Valley CCA at Jefferson & Summit. Maybe it just hasn't been scheduled yet. If it's offered, I'd say it's worth the drive.

[Andre Yew]

It's a 1.5 mile course. It doesn't look all that turn-y to me, actually.


Tracks have an uncanny ability to go all turn-y on you once you're at speed. Banking and elevation changes can also conspire with speed. ;)

--Andre

[Andre Yew]

Wake-up call for people... just because the calipers are painted and say Brembo on them... it doesn't mean you'll be able to stop on a dime over and over... :) especially on Brembos that come from the factory.

But that yellow Porsche yesterday with its racing brakes could sure turn on a dime! :rofl:

--Andre

[Elwood]

Damn, I'll be out of town. Will there be strippers for cone workers??
One would hope. :eeps:

[doeboy]

But that yellow Porsche yesterday with its racing brakes could sure turn on a dime! :rofl:

--Andre

With the exception of "performance" vehicles... :)

[Elwood]

Cool!! :thumbup: So who's getting married?
alken from over on the 'fanatics

http://njbmwcca.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=213

[Andy]

Matt, you’ve been autoxing for awhile, so you should find that your autox skills will translate well to the track. Meaning, you should find it easier to stay on “the line” and hit your apexes, compared to someone that has no autox experience, at least that is what I found. Compared to autox you have sooooo much more time to setup for the corners, to breath, to think, etc. The two major differences I noticed between autox and a HPDE is, of course the increased speed, but also the fact that you don’t need to re-grip the steering wheel. Not having to re-grip is a big advantage, just place your hands at 3 and 9 o’clock and forget about ‘em.

However, I do think there are some disadvantages of having autox experience when doing a HPDE. I found that I would be so focused on looking ahead and hitting my apexes that I would not watch my mirrors or glance over at the corner stations. That’s important stuff to do when at a HPDE… but of course doing that on the autox course would be a major no no. Just ask your instructor to help you watch your mirrors and the corner stations, I’m sure he’ll be happy too… mine was. ;)

[DougDogs]

One would hope. :eeps:

Yeah, people will be hitting cones, on purpose, so the can "watch" the strippers running (bouncing) to set the cones back up!! :thumbup: ;)

Rumratt, I toasted a set of pads on my 72 2002 on my first visit to Limerock. I also took the Taconic Parkway up there (at about 70-90 mph) so some of the wear occurred getting there!! (Great, scenic, twisty highway for the left coasters info)

It doesn't show on the map, but there are a lot of elevation changes. One of my favorite tracks!!

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

The BIG difference between an autox and driving on the track is that you have to be more careful about your inputs. Smoothness is important at autox, but it's still an extremely rapid sort of smoothness. On the track everything slows down a lot.

[BWoodson]

Andy,

Welcome to the world of HPDE! Look frward to crossing paths with you down the road (am at Putnam Park several times a year, and occasionally at Mid-Ohio).

I've got an off topic question for you regarding fitting 245/35x18s to e46 non-M3s...apparently you've been successful in making it work?

-b.
Bill W.
Yes, it was my first HPDE and yes, I did overcook my OEM pads, but FWIW, my instructor recommended that I not run in the novice group next time. He told me that I would easily be running at the top of the "C" group. I’m not saying that to be boastful in any way, just stating that for my driving style, the OEM pads did not hold up. For my next HPDE, I’ll either be on HP+ or the HT10s.

Matt, I’d recommend that you bring a set of Hawk HP+ pads with you to the track, but start out on your OEM pads and see how they hold up to your driving style. If you find that you’re using them up, switch over to the Hawk pads. Even if you don’t use the Hawk pads at your first event, you’ll eventually want to switch to them for future HPDE as you start to push harder on the track.

All this talk about HPDEs is making me antsy. Spring can not come fast enough!!

[Andy]

The BIG difference between an autox and driving on the track is that you have to be more careful about your inputs. Smoothness is important at autox, but it's still an extremely rapid sort of smoothness. On the track everything slows down a lot.
I agree that smoothness is important at both, but extremely important on the track because the consequences are much more severe. Having the rear end kick out on me in turn 1 at Mid Ohio at over 80 MPH taught me that. :eek:

[Gary@Tirerack]

Andy,

Welcome to the world of HPDE! Look frward to crossing paths with you down the road (am at Putnam Park several times a year, and occasionally at Mid-Ohio).

I've got an off topic question for you regarding fitting 245/35x18s to e46 non-M3s...apparently you've been successful in making it work?

-b.
Bill W.

This question is my fault Andy. I basically told Bwoodson here that you are the King of oversized fitments on E46. So many guys over at E46Fanatics reported rubbing on fitments larger than 235, but you've fit massive sizes on yours with no issue :thumbup: Any secrets/wisdom you can share in doing this to help him out?

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

I agree that smoothness is important at both, but extremely important on the track because the consequences are much more severe. Having the rear end kick out on me in turn 1 at Mid Ohio at over 80 MPH taught me that. :eek:
If you ever go to Summit Point, just imagine going sideways at 90 after hitting a wet patch at the apex of turn 4. (I'd backed way the hell off from my dry approach in which I enter at WOT at a speed of 100-105MPH, but apparently not enough.) Nothing like a downhill, off camber sweeper with a wall in the wrong place to make you feel REAL good about the fact that you're 30 degrees sideways.

[Andy]

Andy,

Welcome to the world of HPDE! Look frward to crossing paths with you down the road (am at Putnam Park several times a year, and occasionally at Mid-Ohio).

I've got an off topic question for you regarding fitting 245/35x18s to e46 non-M3s...apparently you've been successful in making it work?

-b.
Bill W.
Hi Bill,

I plan to do a lot more HPDE this year!! I’ll probably do a couple more at Mid Ohio, but also plan to hit Putnam Park as well. I look forward to meeting you.

As for tire size, I have been able to fit the following wheel/tire combos on my car…

- OEM 72M Wheels : 265/35/18 Kumho Ecsta V700s
- OEM 135M Wheels : 245/35/18 Hoosier A3S04s
- OEM 135M Wheels : 255/35/18 Michelin Pilot Sport PS2s
- 17 x 8 SSR Comps : 245/40/17 BF Goodrich g-Force KDs

I experienced a little bit of rubbing in the rear (on the inside) with the 265 Kumos under heavy cornering. However the 245 and 255 wide tires fit fine. I did my first HPDE at Mid Ohio with the 255 wide PS2s all the way around and they hooked up really well.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

This question is my fault Andy. I basically told Bwoodson here that you are the King of oversized fitments on E46. So many guys over at E46Fanatics reported rubbing on fitments larger than 235, but you've fit massive sizes on yours with no issue :thumbup: Any secrets/wisdom you can share in doing this to help him out?
Clearance on the E46 is a mixed bag, Gary.

Offset, camber, and suspension type make a big difference. For example, on my stock suspension, 18x9.5 with 275/35-18 EASILY fit on my M3. Coilovers required an 18mm spacer to get sufficient clearance from the spring perch, and anything less than about 3 degrees of negative camber would have made the fender an iffy proposition.

[Stuka]

OEM pads are fine. The most common mistake of a D student is the "Mr. Brembo" syndrom, where you wait till the last possible second and brake the crap out of the car. I should know, I used to do it, and was awarded the title of DFL. :bigpimp:

At PIR, wher ethe infields are hard on the brakes once you are in the A and B group, my stock E30 325is pads and rotors were fine, this after I managed to pass E46 M3's. Brake management is key, and if you are getting fades at the first school, you are driving way too fast for your own good, and hopefully the isntructor will reign you in before then. :p

For those who don't know, DFL stands for D for Life, second worse title to the OSB title, which stands for, Other Sport Beckons. :bustingup

[Andy]

This question is my fault Andy. I basically told Bwoodson here that you are the King of oversized fitments on E46. So many guys over at E46Fanatics reported rubbing on fitments larger than 235, but you've fit massive sizes on yours with no issue :thumbup: Any secrets/wisdom you can share in doing this to help him out?
When it comes to wheel tire clearance, could there be a difference between the ZSP and the ZHP? I wouldn’t think there would be, but I’ve had other people with the ZSP tell me that they could not fit the same wheel/tire combo that I’ve fit on my ZHP. That’s the only thing I can think of… and my car is even lowered a bit too. :dunno:

[Elwood]

Yeah, people will be hitting cones, on purpose, so the can "watch" the strippers running (bouncing) to set the cones back up!! :thumbup: ;)

Rumratt, I toasted a set of pads on my 72 2002 on my first visit to Limerock. I also took the Taconic Parkway up there (at about 70-90 mph) so some of the wear occurred getting there!! (Great, scenic, twisty highway for the left coasters info)

It doesn't show on the map, but there are a lot of elevation changes. One of my favorite tracks!!
Taconic pkwy has a look and feel of a mini-nurburgring. Very scenic rte up to LRP. Didn't find any truly "fun" corners tho.

[Elwood]

For those who don't know, DFL stands for D for Life, second worse title to the OSB title, which stands for, Other Sport Beckons. :bustingup
I thought DFL was for Dead Fooking Last.

[Stuka]

But that yellow Porsche yesterday with its racing brakes could sure turn on a dime! :rofl:

--Andre

I have never had a car with such amazing brakes. :yikes:

And because of the thermal capacity, I still got plenty of pads and rotors left. This after Thunder Hill and the 130 to 40 braking each lap in that hot summer weather, was really quite impressive. :thumbup:

What really annoys me is that BMW is not incapable of making such awesome brakes for the M3's, but that they chose not to. :mad:

[elbert]

The most common mistake of a D student is the "Mr. Brembo" syndrom, where you wait till the last possible second and brake the crap out of the car.

:confused: I don't think that's any worse than riding on the brakes--a sure fire way to boil fluid, roast pads, etc.

(to be clear, I'm not advocating suddenly slamming on the brakes, but you most certainly don't want to be riding on the brake pedal. Both are wrong)

[Clarke]

It's a 1.5 mile course. It doesn't look all that turn-y to me, actually.

http://www.limerock.com/images/map2_large.jpg Rumratt;You should find Limerock plenty interesting and fun,unless they have emasculated it too much in the 25 years since I used to run on it.You'll get up a fair head of steam down the straight since its downhill leading into it(be careful).Big bend can seem to go on forever and you need to be conscious that on exit you have to be positioned to start the esses not the natural exit line.You'll need to watch it a bit exiting onto the back straight as the rear end can get a little light there.It's a great track,tons of fun and plenty technical.Easy to get around, difficult to do really cleanly and consistently.(Like any good course)-disclaimer this info is 2 1/2 + decades old and presumes it has not been overly sanitized since. Enjoy & have a blast!:thumbup: I'll be interested in hearing your impressions of one of my favorites.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

I've heard the folks at Porterfield occasionally tout the R4S as a "light duty track pad", but I know first-hand that this compound will fade on lap 3 and ruin your track weekend. Some folks take the Hawk HP Plus pads to the track. But I've been told by none other than the former president of the Hawk friction division to never allow a customer to track with the HP Plus, due to the rapid decline in friction level as the maximum operating temperature is exceeded. One lap you can have brakes and the next lap ... nothing.
This comes from Dave Zeckhausen.

[Andre Yew]

This comes from Dave Zeckhausen.

Ouch! Thanks for passing that along.

--Andre

[elbert]

This comes from Dave Zeckhausen.

Someone should tell that to Hawk's ad agency, which describes the HP+ as:
Race worthy for autocross
Race worthy for club racing events
Elevated temperature resistance

[Raffi]

Ouch! Thanks for passing that along.

--Andre Ummm, I'd take that with a grain of salt with regards to the R4-S. I've been tracking my car for over a year now with the R-4S exclusively (as well as a street pad), and it is an outstanding pad - almost on par with the R-4. No matter how many hot laps I take, I've NEVER had them fade on me - not with R-comps, not when doing "dog-fights" with Sergio and his StopTech BBK in 110 degree BW weather, not when pursuing Stuka and his 996TT at Sears Point - NEVER. And I certainly am not the only instructor using those pads - I believe Blaine does too. You just have to learn to manage your brakes - the whole point of this thread.

[Andre Yew]

Raffi,

That's a good point, but I was more concerned about the sudden fade of HP+, which is what my friend experienced at Laguna Seca.

--Andre

[corgicoupe]

I'm doing my first driver school this spring, and I need to decide what to do about brake pads...

Pinecone says (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=423394&postcount=11), "If you are just getting started in tracking, just use what you have."
I did my 1st two schools with OEM pads in an M Coupe at Road Atlanta with no problem. In fact, instructors suggested leaving the car as is for several schools, so you know what to expect from the car. :thumbup: :thumbup:

[BahnBaum]

Clearance on the E46 is a mixed bag, Gary.

Offset, camber, and suspension type make a big difference. For example, on my stock suspension, 18x9.5 with 275/35-18 EASILY fit on my M3. Coilovers required an 18mm spacer to get sufficient clearance from the spring perch, and anything less than about 3 degrees of negative camber would have made the fender an iffy proposition.

Nick,

I was going to order 275/35-18 RA1s this spring. But it sounds like I might have problems with my stock suspension, you think?

Alex

[Pinecone]

a) Nick is not a normal driver. :)

b) I did my first BMW DE in an E46 M3 on stock pads, on street tires at a track where the M3 would do 125 or so in two places, running in C group. The only time I had pad problems was one of the last Sun sessions where I got out second in the group, passed the car in front and got several good hot laps without traffic. I am also not normal. I had done 3 or so professional race type schools.

c) I did switch to track oriented pads for my next event at the Glen. NO problems with running Turner Cool Willy pads all around. And I can drive them to/from the track without problems, squeal and dust yes, no problems with cold braking.

d) It depends on a lot of factors. But for a person with only street driving experience, on street tires, for their first few events, stock pads will work fine. If you are really worried, go ahead with different pads, but make sure you go with a proven combo of pads. Leave experimenting until later. If you have more experience, you will already know what to do.

e) Fresh QUALITY fluid is a MUST no matter what pads you choose. ATE Type 200 or Super Blue are fine to start with. Also if you have been driving VERY hard, after the session drop your instructor off and drive around slowly for some time to allow more colling to take place. I have had more problems with fluid boiling OFF the track than anything on the track.

f) There is something to be said about actually over driving your pads (slightly) to actually learn what it feels like, and how to recover from pad fade.

g) Learn how to properly brake. Improper braking technique can cause more problems than braking properly. Braking too early, too lightly, not fully releasing the pedal all can put more heat into the pads and fluid than doing it right. Thge longer braking allows more heat soak into the pad and caliper.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Nick,

I was going to order 275/35-18 RA1s this spring. But it sounds like I might have problems with my stock suspension, you think?

Alex
it'll clear easily

[wag-zhp]

rumratt, I don't know you personally and have never seen you drive, so I don't have any reference to your skill level. It is very possible that you can far exceed the capabilities of your car and the stock brakes. However, that is not the case with most drivers at their first appearance at a race track.

I subscribe to the school of thought that a new student should show up with equipment that matches their capabilities. Most new students come to the track without F1 level driving skills. With that in mind, I think all new students should start in the beginner class level and expect to start out going around the course at a relaxed speed. The instructor will tell you if you need to push harder, or will bump you up to a higher level if your skills dictate.

I also don't think that a new student should start out with racing rubber. (Really good rubber can hide a lot of mistakes, allowing very high speeds. Discovering mistakes at high speed can be very scary, at best.) They should start out with normal street tires, so they can more quickly find the limits of the car. Then they can begin to probe those limits, while they perfect their own driving skills.

The same goes for brakes. On your first day out you shouldn't be trying to set any track records. Take it easy on your first visit. Most new students don't need track pads. If you find that your brakes are fading on the first visit, ask the instructor if they think it's the equipment or your style.

I recommend equipment upgrades only after the driver is truly utilizing everything the car can give. With all of that said, I do recommend that you bring an extra set of stock pads with you, just in case you toast the first set. There's nothing worse that being at the track with nothing to drive. If you have to switch pads slow down a little, sign up for another event, and plan to bring better pads the next time around.