New Product from TMS - E46 Rear Subframe Reinforcement Kit

[dugmar]

This product is now finished and in stock.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=TDR4675412

Doug
TMS

[Gabe]

If I were buying and not leasing I would definitely pick this up.

Seems like a great price, assuming it does what it is supposed to.

[Gabe]

I am no welder either, but I have friends who are quite handy. :thumbup:

[Elwood]

If it were just a matter of buying the kit, the price is peanuts. It's getting it installed that is the PITA.

Welding is not one of my areas of expertise.
That's a ton of work.

[dugmar]

That's a ton of work.

Yes, a considerable amount of labor. Typically 8-10 hours depending on damage. The alternative you ask? Replace the entire rear floorpan with a factory body panel, pay a body shop to rip out the entire rear of the floor and replace with new and then paint it. That is at least double the time, not to mention the price of the parts from BMW. If you do that, we still recommend you install this kit to prevent it from happening again.

We weighed the options for a while and we have found that this is the right way to fix it. We have seen a lot of these cars lately with subframe mounting completely ripped out. The car we used for the photos for example, it was a customer's car, 100% street driven, 100,000 miles, the car never saw one day on the track. We have used this kit on a half dozen cars so far.

The lowest mileage car we have seen with this issue had 60,000 miles. However, we have seen some E46's with 200,000 miles on them with zero issues. :dunno:

Doug

(Edited for spelling)

[JonM]

This product is now finished and in stock.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=TDR4675412

Doug
TMS

Doug,

Have you seen any of the Z-series cars failure modes?

[dugmar]

Any word on the rumors that the tearing is caused mostly due to a bad batch of sheet metal? There have been almost no reported cases on 2002+ vehicles (or is it 2001+). Of course, they are newer, so they've had less time to wear out.

Based on our customer data, this is accurate. The six cars we have done in house have been 98, 99 and 2000 production.

-D

[dugmar]

We also had one 2001 325i.

Doug

[HW]

any possibility in making a trunk only reinforcement kit for cars that have no damage.

[Elwood]

Yes, a considerable amount of labor. Typically 8-10 hours depending on damage. The alternative you ask? Replace the entire rear floorpan with a factory body panel, pay a body shop to rip out the entire rear of the floor and replace with new and then paint it. That is at least double the time, not to mention the price of the parts from BMW. If you do that, we still recommend you install this kit to prevent it from happening again.

We weighed the options for a while and we have found that this is the right way to fix it. We have seen a lot of these cars lately with subframe mounting completely ripped out. The car we used for the photos for example, it was a customer's car, 100% street driven, 100,000 miles, the car never saw one day on the track. We have used this kit on a half dozen cars so far.

The lowest mileage car we have seen with this issue had 60,000 miles. However, we have seen some E46's with 200,000 miles on them with zero issues. :dunno:

Doug

(Edited for spelling)
Definetly sounds like the right way to do it. I'd love to have it done to mine . Maybe if I'm ever up your way..............

[dugmar]

Doug,

Have you seen any of the Z-series cars failure modes?

We have not seen any Z3's in our shop with that issue. With the E30 style rear suspension, we have seen some diff mount failures, that is about it.

Doug

[Andre Yew]

The kit looks very nice! FWIW, when my rear subframe tear was repaired, reinforcement was added to the area. It seemed to be part of the normal repair process for the E46.

--Andre

[dugmar]

Doug, do you guys have a pre-canned price for installing them? Or is it based on an hourly rate (with 8-10 hours estimated)?

It's based on how long it takes us, which is based on the individual's car. We do not charge flat rate labor.

Doug

[LarryN]

We weighed the options for a while and we have found that this is the right way to fix it. We have seen a lot of these cars lately with subframe mounting completely ripped out. The car we used for the photos for example, it was a customer's car, 100% street driven, 100,000 miles, the car never saw one day on the track. We have used this kit on a half dozen cars so far.



Hi Doug,

That looks like quite lot of good research went into that kit. Did you happen to do another car recently? My buddy had his done this past week, and I thought that was his car in the pics. He's done lots of driving schools, track days, and 3 seasons of autocross, and only has 68k miles. Is it another 2001 Orient Blue 325i E46 that you did for those pics? Also, I don't believe he had any problems with his rear subframe mounts before. Was the first pic in the instructions from the same car, or a file photo. I'm curious because he does a fair amount of driving events, as I do, and I want to keep an eye on things on my car.

Thanks!
Larry

[bluetree211]

It's based on how long it takes us, which is based on the individual's car. We do not charge flat rate labor.

Doug
Would you do a canned price for a car that has no damage, ie preventative install? Seems like you could accurately estimate that pretty easily, since you dont need to do any repair work, and all cars disassemble and reassemble the same way. I think we just want a ballpark to figure out if we should come play... ;)

[bmw325]

We also had one 2001 325i.

Doug

Any idea what the build date on that car was (i.e. was it built in 2000)?

[EJEvo]

I think we just want a ballpark to figure out if we should come play... ;)

Hmmm - Let's see: $147 for the parts, 8-10hrs of labor @ $85/hr, that's about... $997. Not sure what's up with taxes in Mass. So bottom line looks to be about a grand, give or take. But I hear they have a special if you let them use your car to learn the process and document it: $1,200. :dunno:

[LarryN]

Any idea what the build date on that car was (i.e. was it built in 2000)?

Since Doug states they did only one 2001, I know whose it was, and they are a bimmerfester as well. It was an early build model (October 2000, I believe), and did not have any damage, prior to the install. I think they used his 2001 model for documentation/final fitiment purposes only.

[dugmar]

Hmmm - Let's see: $147 for the parts, 8-10hrs of labor @ $85/hr, that's about... $997. Not sure what's up with taxes in Mass. So bottom line looks to be about a grand, give or take. But I hear they have a special if you let them use your car to learn the process and document it: $1,200. :dunno:

No tax on labor, just parts.
For this particular kit, we have the process down now, but we have offered incentives to customer's that donate cars for new product development.

Doug

[dugmar]

Any idea what the build date on that car was (i.e. was it built in 2000)?

Sorry, I don't have the exact date of production. We will keep a closer eye on prod. dates on these cars now as they come in.

Doug

[FrenchBoy]

No tax on labor, just parts.
For this particular kit, we have the process down now, but we have offered incentives to customer's that donate cars for new product development.

Doug

Doug,

Are you saying that it is a common practice of TMS to call a customer who has not previously expressed any interest for such a kit, to ask him if he would be interested in volunteering his car for your development and advertising benefits, to "offer" him the $146.95 not-yet-released-and-fully-QA'd kit and finally to ask him after the work is completed to pay $1200 for the kit install :confused:

Not to mention that the 2001 325i that we are talking about is -I believe - an April '01 production which according to you, probably does not need it.

If this is what TMS considers an "incentive" offer, and if this is how TMS hopes to build lasting relationships with enthusiasts, I may pass on such a "generous" offer.

FrenchBoy

[Elwood]

Doug,

Are you saying that it is a common practice of TMS to call a customer who has not previously expressed any interest for such a kit, to ask him if he would be interested in volunteering his car for your development and advertising benefits, to "offer" him the $146.95 not-yet-released-and-fully-QA'd kit and finally to ask him after the work in completed to pay $1200 for the kit install :confused:

Not to mention that the 2001 325i that we are talking about is -I believe - an April '01 production which according to you, probably does not need it.

If this is what TMS considers an "incentive" and this is how TMS hopes to build lasting relationships with enthusiasts, I will pass on such a "generous" offer.

FrenchBoy
:confused: don't think I saw anyone say that was the case. :confused: :loco:

[Kaz]

Doug,

Are you saying that it is a common practice of TMS to call a customer who has not previously expressed any interest for such a kit, to ask him if he would be interested in volunteering his car for your development and advertising benefits, to "offer" him the $146.95 not-yet-released-and-fully-QA'd kit and finally to ask him after the work is completed to pay $1200 for the kit install :confused:

Not to mention that the 2001 325i that we are talking about is -I believe - an April '01 production which according to you, probably does not need it.

If this is what TMS considers an "incentive" offer, and if this is how TMS hopes to build lasting relationships with enthusiasts, I may pass on such a "generous" offer.

FrenchBoy

Boy, you must be drinking from the same drinking fountain as TD or something. :loco:

[FrenchBoy]

:confused: don't think I saw anyone say that was the case. :confused: :loco:

The Bimmerfester whose car was used for the pictures told me this was the case... :thumbdwn:

Fortunately, it seems that after a little bit of fighting, TMS has agreed to waive the labor cost.

[LarryN]

I can also verify this was the case... very unfortuantely. :(

[bluetree211]

The Bimmerfester whose car was used for the pictures told me this was the case... :thumbdwn:

Fortunately, it seems that after a little bit of fighting, TMS has agreed to waive the labor cost.
:thumbdwn: TMS
Dont think you are fooling anyone but not stating the cost of installation; it usually means you are embarassed by how much money you plan on blindsiding us with on the bill

[Elwood]

:thumbdwn: TMS
Dont think you are fooling anyone but not stating the cost of installation; it usually means you are embarassed by how much money you plan on blindsiding us with on the bill
prior argument aside, you now have a time ESTIMATE so "blindsiding" doesn't necessarily apply anymore.

[LarryN]

Sounds like there is some pretty bad blood from a past incident...

But all he posted here is a kit for $150, and DIY instructions. It's hard to argue they're luring us in and waiting to blindside us. He also admitted 8-10 hours labor.

I'd agree about the cost factor, but as for luring us in, Doug stated "The car we used for the photos for example,it was a customer's car, 100% street driven, 100,000 miles, the car never saw one day on the track" is not a 100,000 mile e46 with no track days, with a torn subframe. It was a perfectly fine 68+k mile car that gets tracked a lot, and does many autox events over the past 3 year without any problems.

It seems that we are lead to believe that any e46, even if you do not track it, is susceptable to this problem. This may or may not be the case in reality. However, the statement was not correct, and could lead people to a potential incorrect decision.

[Andre Yew]

You do not need to track an E46 to see this problem.

--Andre

[EJEvo]

:confused: don't think I saw anyone say that was the case. :confused: :loco:

Oh, if only you knew the story...

[Andre Yew]

The lowest mileage car we have seen with this issue had 60,000 miles.

I just noticed this. My rear subframe tore out at 41K miles on a stock suspension car.

--Andre

[dugmar]

I'd agree about the cost factor, but as for luring us in, Doug stated "The car we used for the photos for example,it was a customer's car, 100% street driven, 100,000 miles, the car never saw one day on the track" is not a 100,000 mile e46 with no track days, with a torn subframe. It was a perfectly fine 68+k mile car that gets tracked a lot, and does many autox events over the past 3 year without any problems.

It seems that we are lead to believe that any e46, even if you do not track it, is susceptable to this problem. This may or may not be the case in reality. However, the statement was not correct, and could lead people to a potential incorrect decision.

Actually, you are correct about the photos - kinda- However, the photos you're referring to Larry are the ones in our instruction sheet. Those aren't the photos I was talking about.

Earlier in this thread, when I mentioned photos, I was referring to the photos of the car with sheet metal damage, these photos are on our website. It was not intended to be leading people into buying something they didn't need. So the statement was correct. You simply misunderstood.

Here are the photos I was orignally referring to were the ones we have on our site:

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=TDR4675412

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/images/home_center_e46_sf.jpg

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/image/suspension/reinf_e46_subframe_2.jpg

If you need me to clear up any other misconceptions you may have regarding anything we do here, feel free to email me Larry. I'd be happy to do that for you.

Doug

[dugmar]

The Bimmerfester whose car was used for the pictures told me this was the case... :thumbdwn:

Fortunately, it seems that after a little bit of fighting, TMS has agreed to waive the labor cost.

Guys... I posted this product info to help you guys out and answer some questions you may have had. WOW, there seems to be a lot of anger towards us here! Trust me, we're good guys here! We try to keep the customer happy and if they aren't, we don't sleep at night. We're enthusiasts just like you, we're not the type of place that "blindsides" the customer by any means. If we practiced business that way, there would be a lot more negative posts about TMS, and I doubt we'd even be here after all these years.

Yes, there was a misunderstanding between the customer and our service dept. I was unaware of this until today, so I was as confused as some of you here were when I was reading this. I now see I was lead into something else. If anyone that has been here at TMS, you already know I am in a completely different building from the service dept, which is about 2 miles away. I had no idea until today that this was even going on. I have spoken to Kevin and Will and they tell me that we have since apologized for the misunderstanding and absorbed the cost of all the parts and labor for this customer's install. I hope all is well between us again, afterall, that is all we want.

It was a misunderstanding more than anything, if anyone has any questions regarding the details, I'd prefer to answer questions privately. I'll be happy to fill you in via email.

dugmar@turnermotorsport.com

Thanks again,

Doug

[scottn2retro]

Hi All -

I'll chime in here as a point of reference for pricing for this kind of work. We had to have some rear subframe work done on the race car. It is a lot of work and welding - about 8 hours as Doug has said. The kit used on our car was not from TMS and the shop that did the work was out here in SoCal, but the total bill was definitely quite a bit more than what Doug has estimated.

[Ace]

Guys... I posted this product info to help you guys out and answer some questions you may have had. WOW, there seems to be a lot of anger towards us here! Trust me, we're good guys here! We try to keep the customer happy and if they aren't, we don't sleep at night. We're enthusiasts just like you, we're not the type of place that "blindsides" the customer by any means. If we practiced business that way, there would be a lot more negative posts about TMS, and I doubt we'd even be here after all these years.

Yes, there was a misunderstanding between the customer and our service dept. I was unaware of this until today, so I was as confused as some of you here were when I was reading this. I now see I was lead into something else. If anyone that has been here at TMS, you already know I am in a completely different building from the service dept, which is about 2 miles away. I had no idea until today that this was even going on. I have spoken to Kevin and Will and they tell me that we have since apologized for the misunderstanding and absorbed the cost of all the parts and labor for this customer's install. I hope all is well between us again, afterall, that is all we want.

It was a misunderstanding more than anything, if anyone has any questions regarding the details, I'd prefer to answer questions privately. I'll be happy to fill you in via email.

dugmar@turnermotorsport.com

Thanks again,

Doug


well done doug! i for one applaud your initiative to provide a preventative measure (at a reasonable price) against a problem that really should be addressed by BMW as a safety recall. and you have handled yourself quite well inspite of the misunderstandings presented in this thread. it seems that there was a problem with a customer and you have resolved the issue! you're good in my books!! we need more shops and service like you guys around!

[brave1heart]

OK, some explanation is in order. I was really hoping to stay out of this but I feel that at this point, it would be unfair to TMS if I did not straighten some facts out.

The car used for the pictures in the installation instructions is my '01 325i, which sees 7-8 track days and 8-9 autocross events a year. The car has not had a rear subframe failure (yet), so the first picture on the instructions showing the torn sheetmetal is someone else's. I was contacted by TMS to see if I'd be interested in having the rear subframe reinforcement kit installed in my car and that it would be free of charge. They would use the install to test the process before it was officially posted on the website and would also take pictures for the installation instructions. I agreed and when I stopped by to pick up the car at TMS, I found out that we had a misunderstanding about the financial arrangement. We decided to think it over the weekend. The issue was resolved on Monday morning when TMS agreed that the kit and install would be free of charge to me and even picked up the cost of replacing a broken front swaybar link, which they had uncovered.

It was never my intent to discuss this on internet boards as TMS picked up the tab in full on Monday morning and the issue was financially resolved at that point. There are no hard feelings. I have had my car worked on a few occasions at TMS in the past and have always had a positive experience. If anyone in the Boston area is interested in taking a look at the work that was done on my car, PM me and I'd be glad to show it to you.

And last, I think it is important to know that today Will Turner personally addressed the issue in an e-mail to me. I believe his e-mail proves that it is truly important to TMS and him personally that every TMS customer leaves their shop happy. I will take the liberty of posting parts of his e-mail below:


.................................................. .................................
I have been following the situation with your recent experience with
TMS. First let me assure you that our intentions (TMS's, Mine, and
Kevin's) were not to take advantage of you in any way. When Kevin and I
discussed calling a local customer to offer them the rear subframe kit
install it was always our intention to give the parts for free and give
labor at the best rate we could.

I understand now by your email , and by speaking to Kevin, that you
were under the impression that the whole job would be free of charge.
Since this was a misunderstanding and since I was not involved in any of
the discussion - I have no problem covering the labor on the job. We
will learn from this for next time and make it clearer to our customers
of our intentions. No problem. I appreciate you letting us use your car
for our photographs etc - losing our server really set us back.

...........................................

I will void this whole invoice, you owe us nothing, no hard feelings
for the misunderstandings.

Thank You

-Will Turner

[Dirtboy]

Has anyone here seen BMW's fix for this PROBLEM (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=226196)? They say it affects E46's up to Feb 2000. :dunno:

[FrenchBoy]

Has anyone here seen BMW's fix for this PROBLEM (http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=226196)? They say it affects E46's up to Feb 2000. :dunno:

Dirtboy,

Thanks for the info. It is re-assuring to see that BMW addressed this problem and that hopefully my June '01 car is not affected by this ailment.

Also, I am glad to see that we are all friends again :)

FrenchBoy

[BahnBaum]

I've spent a considerable amount of money with TMS over the past couple months in the suspension rebuild of my e30. I have found them to be exceptionally customer focused. There's no way, in my mind, that they would try to take advantage of anyone.

Alex

[dynosor]

Any word on the rumors that the tearing is caused mostly due to a bad batch of sheet metal? There have been almost no reported cases on 2002+ vehicles (or is it 2001+). Of course, they are newer, so they've had less time to wear out.

I wonder if BMW started using the CDV (clutch delay valve) to cushon clutch engagement to reduce drivetrain shock and subframe fatigue... Anybody know when the CDV became standard?

I generally don't do hard launches in first and tend to floor it from second gear for the sake of smoothness. I am sure this is much easier on all the drivetrain mounting points.

[sp330i]

For those of you that may not be following this other post, look here. http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=195602

While most failures are reported on MY 2000 and prior, there are several that are 2001 and above. I'm curious if it is more a function of mileage and not necessarily related to MY. Most MY 2001 and later 3s may not have have enough miles on them to experience the failure. :dunno: