Awful in snow

[330ciPfmcePkg05]

I have never driven a rear wheel drive car...just got 2005 330ci with performance package and much more..drove it to the gym just to see how it would react in the snow and i almost died ...twisting and turning every which way...spinning in and out i couldnt believe...meanwhile i was driving 2mph :mad:

[KrisL]

It's not the RWD as much as it is the performance tires which are making you slide all over.

[RNarang]

i hear ya,
i just put on snows. Bought a set of preowned 17x7.5 and put on Blizzak ws-50. The car now handles fanstastic in the snow

[iversonm]

Are you running on summer tires?

RWD is not the problem, the tires are

You really need winter tires or, at the very least, all seasons tires for snow.

If you think you can survive without them, I got a story to tell you about $2200 of assorted e46 parts, including 2 rims, a tie rod, and a steering box.

[AF]

I am from NY as well and used to use Contitouring all-season tires for winter use on a set of type 44 wheels ... they were excellent in the snow


You could kill yourself with the sports package or performance package summer tires.

[gojira-san]

i hear ya,
i just put on snows. Bought a set of preowned 17x7.5 and put on Blizzak ws-50. The car now handles fanstastic in the snow
The WS-50s are tank treads for winter :) I have them on my 5er and they work great.

[WILLIA///M]

I have never driven a rear wheel drive car...just got 2005 330ci with performance package and much more..drove it to the gym just to see how it would react in the snow and i almost died ...twisting and turning every which way...spinning in and out i couldnt believe...meanwhile i was driving 2mph :mad:

:tsk:

[The Roadstergal]

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[330ciPfmcePkg05]

i know i know..thanks guys ...

[dlloyd1975]

The wagon, rear wheel drive only, not AWD, is without a doubt the best handling car I've ever driven in the snow. Of course, this is with four Dunlop WinterSport M2s on there. Driving on the summer tires would be deadly.

If you live where it snows, get the winter tires. Save the summer rims from potholes and salt and save yourself from sliding off the road.

[BlackChrome]

One of my friends has a S2000 with S03s. He was blaming the car (being RWD) because it wouldn't go anywhere in the snow. HELLO??? :rolleyes:

[my3rdbimmer]

another idea ( and i am assuming you haven't driven a rear wheel drive car in the winter before) is to take your car to a large snowy parking lot some where and drive it around throw it into slides get a feel for how it reacts.. have fun (don't get arrested) it will give you an excellent feel for how the car reacts to diferent situations.. and remember traction control isn't always you friend in the snow... it sounds stupid to say that but you lose alot of contol with it on.. i personally turn it off in the snow.. just my preference..

[hmr]

I have never driven a rear wheel drive car...just got 2005 330ci with performance package and much more..drove it to the gym just to see how it would react in the snow and i almost died ...twisting and turning every which way...spinning in and out i couldnt believe...meanwhile i was driving 2mph :mad:


:bs: Almost died? Spinning out? Did you have DSC off? If you did, then all I can think is :rolleyes: .

[Artslinger]

I know it will never happen but dealers should warn buyers who purchase cars with sport suspensions and performance tires that they need purchase winter tires for their new car.

A couple of weeks ago I had to help push a neighbors Cadillac with performance tires that became stuck just backing out of his garage. The guy complained to me the car has been nothing but trouble when it snows. Obviously he hasn't a clue (like the majority of car buyers), about the need for winter tires on a RWD car that comes equipped with summer only performance tires.

[Elwood]

I know it will never happen but dealers should warn buyers who purchase cars with sport suspensions and performance tires that they need purchase winter tires for their new car.
My dealer did. Even more, when going for a test drive in November and in the rain I was warned that it had summer tires on and to be very carefull. My brother on the other hand just test drove an is300 with summers and the saleswoman told him after he step the tail out!

[330ciPfmcePkg05]

ARTSLINGER you are so correct....the dealer said NOTHING about getting winter tires!!! :mad: The problem is i dunno if i can afford to get another set of rims...will 18" winter tires be sufficient enough in New York weather? please help guys..thanks

[Artslinger]

ARTSLINGER you are so correct....the dealer said NOTHING about getting winter tires!!! :mad: The problem is i dunno if i can afford to get another set of rims...will 18" winter tires be sufficient enough in New York weather? please help guys..thanks


A word of advice.

DO NOT drive the car if there will be snow on the road. If you can't afford a brand new winter set buy a set of used rims and winter tires and replace the used snows in a year or two if needed. You should be able to pick up a set of used for half to a third the price of a new set.

[Desertnate]

I have never driven a rear wheel drive car...just got 2005 330ci with performance package and much more..drove it to the gym just to see how it would react in the snow and i almost died ...twisting and turning every which way...spinning in and out i couldnt believe...meanwhile i was driving 2mph :mad:

A lot of this depends on driving style and snow tires.

I have never lived in a climate where snow tires were needed...one measureable snow a year at most, and even then no more than 2~3 inches. On those rare occasions, I was caught on snow with my summer tires, I found the car to be VERY stable and easily controled when driven carefully. Wheel slip was minimal, minimal ABS/ACS intervention due to excelent car balance and feedbak allowing me to tell what the car was doing.

I have never driven an AWD car, but my RWD BMW is far better in the snow than any FWD car I have owned/driven.

[Moderato]

ARTSLINGER you are so correct....the dealer said NOTHING about getting winter tires!!! :mad: The problem is i dunno if i can afford to get another set of rims...will 18" winter tires be sufficient enough in New York weather? please help guys..thanks


I really don't mean any disrespect or offense, but I would think that someone would know this before selecting ZHP and buying such an expensive car. Please don't take that statement personally, I'm just surprised that you weren't aware of that on your own.

[yamato]

I have all-seasons and DSC on. I find they are working very well.

Yesterday I tried to turn off DSC once but quickly I found I should never do that again.

[BahnBaum]

I really don't mean any disrespect or offense, but I would think that someone would know this before selecting ZHP and buying such an expensive car. Please don't take that statement personally, I'm just surprised that you weren't aware of that on your own.

What he said.

Alex

[TD]

Darwin must have been napping. Consider yourself lucky.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Darwin must have been napping. Consider yourself lucky.
This from the guy who insists on driving his S-03 shod E36 M3 in the snow when he damned well knows how useless it is?

[TD]

This from the guy who insists on driving his S-03 shod E36 M3 in the snow when he damned well knows how useless it is?

Oh, how many times do I have to repeat to you that when it snows (or even threatens to snow) the M3 doesn't leave the garage. Why should I buy snows for a car that I can just elect to NOT USE when the weather is bad?

And, BTW, it's wearing PS2s now, not S-03s. And I will never know how useless they are in snow.

The Saab is wearing all-seasons now and I plan to take it tomorrow as we're forecast to get, what, 1 inch. My M3 will be warm indoors.

[Chris90]

Yeah, a BMW is completely useless in the snow - I'll give you $20k to take it off your hands! :D

[yamato]

I heard:
Take a eraser and rub it against a piece of paper. The friction is like a good performance tires in the summer.
Now freeze the eraser and rub it against a snow/ice/wet surface. That's how much traction we have using performance tires in the winter.

[my3rdbimmer]

i hate dsc in the snow... i grew up in montana and learned to drive in the snow in a rear wheel drive. the key is knowing your car and how it reacts... to many people do not really drive their cars they use their cars.. go do some donuts...get some speed and throw it into a spin learn how to correct and not over correct.. i have all seasons in my e36 and it took me a while to get used to it but now that i have i think it is a good snow car..

[iversonm]

A lot of this depends on driving style and snow tires.

I have never lived in a climate where snow tires were needed...one measureable snow a year at most, and even then no more than 2~3 inches. On those rare occasions, I was caught on snow with my summer tires, I found the car to be VERY stable and easily controled when driven carefully. Wheel slip was minimal, minimal ABS/ACS intervention due to excelent car balance and feedbak allowing me to tell what the car was doing.

I have never driven an AWD car, but my RWD BMW is far better in the snow than any FWD car I have owned/driven.

That used to be my philosophy, until the aformentioned event resulting in two wrecked rims, a bent tie rod, and a trashed steering box. Had the nerve to try and negotiate a snowy corner at 10 mph. While the summer tires were unable to participate in the cornering process, the curb was more than happy to take up the slack.

In the absence of snow tires, all season tires should be the minimum standard.

[Desertnate]

That used to be my philosophy, until the aformentioned event resulting in two wrecked rims, a bent tie rod, and a trashed steering box. Had the nerve to try and negotiate a snowy corner at 10 mph. While the summer tires were unable to participate in the cornering process, the curb was more than happy to take up the slack.

In the absence of snow tires, all season tires should be the minimum standard.

It was not a lot of fun and I was always on edge, so now I run all seasons :(

I hate them due to the handling loss, but I cannot justify a new set of rims/tires for one snow or so a year. Heck, this year it has only snowed really once and the streets were plowed by the time I got up in the morning. We may not have any real snow at all...further sinks my case for snows.

[iversonm]

It was not a lot of fun and I was always on edge, so now I run all seasons :(

I hate them due to the handling loss, but I cannot justify a new set of rims/tires for one snow or so a year. Heck, this year it has only snowed really once and the streets were plowed by the time I got up in the morning. We may not have any real snow at all...further sinks my case for snows.

I've gone the all season route as well on the new car. While it sounds like I get more snow than you, I only beat the snowplows to the punch once this year. I had a hard time justifying the extra rims, and put up with 4 months of really squishy tires.

[operknockity]

Had the nerve to try and negotiate a snowy corner at 10 mph. While the summer tires were unable to participate in the cornering process, the curb was more than happy to take up the slack. Happened to me in my FWD Toyotta Celica just after moving to Baltimore many years back. Still had useable tread left on my SoCal summer tires and didn't get a chance to get all seasons or snows before a very early snowfall. I was fine on the powder in my neighborhood, but as soon as I hit a main road, poof... no traction. Took out the power steering linkage and CV joint on the right front when I hit the curb. I'm actually suprised that the alloy wheels didn't get anything more than some curb rash. Of course, the cold snap ended the next day and all the snow and ice melted.

Four days later, after the car was fixed, first stop was to get snow tires. Made all the difference in the world :thumbup:

[Fast Bob]

I have all-seasons and DSC on. I find they are working very well.

Yesterday I tried to turn off DSC once but quickly I found I should never do that again.

Just don`t forget that the effects of DSC are useful only while you`re rolling....if you`re stuck, turn it off, or it will work against you. A couple of gallon-size plastic water jugs filled with Kitty Litter can go a long way towards getting you UN-stuck !

Regards,
Bob

[hmr]

Just don`t forget that the effects of DSC are useful only while you`re rolling....if you`re stuck, turn it off, or it will work against you. A couple of gallon-size plastic water jugs filled with Kitty Litter can go a long way towards getting you UN-stuck !

Regards,
Bob


Traction control is part of DSC. It helps get the car rolling by minimizing wheel slippage.

[Desertnate]

Traction control is part of DSC. It helps get the car rolling by minimizing wheel slippage.

Not when you are stuck in snow...it is then your worst nightmare. It might be better if we had limited slip differentials on the car, but we don't. When you are bogged down in snow, the fact the DSC, or in my case ACS, won't let your wheels spin and spinning is exactly what you need to get out. That is what makes it counter productive.

Yes, if you are on an icy street, it will help you get started in a more controlled manner, but if you are in the deep white stuff trying to get out of the driveway...forget it, and turn the electronic nanny off.

[SizzlerMA]

I have never driven a rear wheel drive car...just got 2005 330ci with performance package and much more..drove it to the gym just to see how it would react in the snow and i almost died ...twisting and turning every which way...spinning in and out i couldnt believe...meanwhile i was driving 2mph :mad:
Tires, tires, tires!!!

With 17" Bridgestone Blizzak LM-25 performance snow tires, my RWD 330i ZHP is FAR better than my FWD Accord ever was with all seasons. The BMW accelerates harder and faster in the snow, brakes straighter and faster and has much better lateral stability. Additionally, even with the snow tires, the BMW is still better in the rain and on the dry than the FWD Accord was with the all seasons.

Granted, the snows are a step down from the summer performance tires, but they still handle quite well and driving is still fun!

[Ace]

ARTSLINGER you are so correct....the dealer said NOTHING about getting winter tires!!! :mad: The problem is i dunno if i can afford to get another set of rims...will 18" winter tires be sufficient enough in New York weather? please help guys..thanks

as someone else already mentioned your best bet is to buy a set of used oem or aftermarket wheels and tires and replace the tires in a year or 2. also you probably shouldn't get an 18" snow tire, it will not give you as much control as a smaller wheel size...go for a 16" wheel and tire if possible....but double check that 16" will fit your car!

[330ciPfmcePkg05]

I got 18" Vredestein Wintrac Extreme for my winters yesterday

[Raikkonen]

I love my ZHP with my snow tires.. I fly around out there with the tires.. just start out in 2nd gear

[phatchunk99]

I have all seasons, and they suck ass. I drove my car in the snow today for the first time ever. It was only a short drive to pick up lunch. The DSC light came on about 10 times and the rear of the car swung around like it's nobody's business. Mind you I was going <10mph.

[solsurfr]

I have all seasons, and they suck ass. I drove my car in the snow day for the first time. It was only a short drive to pick up lunch. The DSC light came on about 10 times and the rear of the car swung around like it's nobody's business. Mind you I was going <10mph.
Yeah, our first snow here in the Philly area today. Other than driving in Germany in a blizzard this would be my first time at home going thru the white stuff. I was slippin' just a tad (I have XI) but I found DSC to perform much better than DTC. I guess DTC would be better in deep snow but DSC worked great with the AWD system today considering the slick conditions.

[Staszek]

With snows my DSC didnt even twitch, its all about tires. I hate threads like this

[obmd1]

[QUOTE=TD]Oh, how many times do I have to repeat to you that when it snows (or even threatens to snow) the M3 doesn't leave the garage. QUOTE]

kay.... So I should not consider trading up to and M3 from my '02 33oCI with Sport pkg? I have snows, and have found DSC in snowy Cleveland to be better than any can, on any incline, with snow and ice than any FWD car I have ever owned. Given I learn to be gentle in the snow, can this not be a primary car in the winter? :yikes: I really want and M3 when my lease is up in 8.5 months :cry: :cry:

also... while we're on snows and rims, my dealer (who told me in plain language that this car was a rollerskate in the snow with performance tires on it :yikes: ) really didn't push rims. I have been switching tires twice a year (usually with rotors, since they SUCK and warp regullarly) on the stock rims. No biggy, right?

WELL... my girlfriend just ordered an '05 330CI Performance Package, and that dealer, who also suggested snows, told us that rims are needed too... I know about potholes and such with 18's, but he was talking about wear on the bead :confused: :confused:

Is this nutty? :dunno: :dunno:

thanks

(oh, and yeah.. I was bumming she's getting 10 extra horses, BUT the don't do manuals, so there's that...)

[pony_trekker]

I have never driven a rear wheel drive car...just got 2005 330ci with performance package and much more..drove it to the gym just to see how it would react in the snow and i almost died ...twisting and turning every which way...spinning in and out i couldnt believe...meanwhile i was driving 2mph :mad:
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[Fast Bob]

I got 18" Vredestein Wintrac Extreme for my winters yesterday

I have heard many good things about Vredesteins....I think they`re a good choice for people who still want to drive above 70 mph on dry pavement, and also have the benefit of a good, dedicated snow tire. Had Blizzak MZ-03s on my`99 528i SP....*hated* `em....they felt like big greasy donuts at any speed over 70, sucked in the wet, and did`nt live up to their hype in snowy/icy conditions....I was actually glad that they only lasted about 16,000 miles....replaced them with BF Goodrich KDWS all-seasons, which give *almost* summer tire handling (stable at 120+), while performing acceptably in light (3 or 4") snow. But I would like the extra snow-handling ability of the Vredesteins....they will probably be the next winter tires I buy. Would you mind telling me what dealer you got them from (Euro Tire?), and how much they cost.

Regards,
Bob

[330ciPfmcePkg05]

hey bob...$250 per tire..i got 4 18" tires..on my 05' 330ci ZHP

[wheel-man]

To beat a dead horse and then torch it to make sure it's indeed dead...

SNOW TIRES, SNOW TIRES, SNOW TIRES.

And take your car out to a big EMPTY parking lot and learn how to correct when intentionally losing control and how the car 'feels' when it approaches it's limit of traction.

Plus, adding weight to the rear... with sandbags, etc. in the trunk... in addition to snow tires helps alot.

[Roadhawk]

Yeah Vredsteins rule. Today - in our slippery snowy 1st snow of the area in/around DC I had no problem whatsoever (in the AWD S4)...of course...still - I could stop then start up and quickly accelerate up very slick and very steep unsalted hills where (seemingly snow tire trodden) SUVs were unable to climb or at least were visibly having dificulty...etc...oh and have I mentioned that a few months ago I was doing 140mph on the Vreds in the twisty stretch of the DC beltway around the Mormon temple - yeah - I don't think I could imagine another set of snows - very good choice (worth every penny).

Oh and I had to rescue my wife today. She drove the Bimmer into work (I had offered her a ride)...and I forbade her from even attempting to drive it home. Even I declined - I thought I might drive it home from her work and she take the Audi...it was just a bit too slick out there to risk it. I'll have to rescue it tommorow...we rreally don't et enough snow here to warrent a set of snow wheels & tires (when I already have a set for our Audi) - anyway we'll see...if it becomes overly inconvienint I'll likley get winter wheels for next winter...

[MysticBlue]

:D "WELL... my girlfriend just ordered an '05 330CI Performance Package, and that dealer, who also suggested snows, told us that rims are needed too... I know about potholes and such with 18's, but he was talking about wear on the bead :confused: :confused:

Is this nutty? :dunno: :dunno:

thanks"

It kind of makes sense, to some extent. It can't be good for a tire or a wheel to keep mounting and unmounting over and over. Maybe it's no big deal, but I have heard that before. Anyway, it seems a lot easier to get some cheap wheels and not worry about the mounting. Seems like they would pay for themselves in savings from not having to pay for the mounting and balance so many times.
If I was me (and I am), that's what I would do...if I drove it in snow. I have a 4x4 Dakota for snow days...and the sand and gravel days that follow.:rolleyes:

[330soon2b]

I have 17 inch rims and snow tires. Blizzak LMs. They worked great yesterday on the ride home. I felt more comfortable than with my old honda accord with all seasons. I would never take my car in the snow with summer tires. That is a receipe for disaster. Fast Bob, here's a link that you might find useful:

http://www.vredestein.com/autobanden/Index.asp?TaalID=3

[robj213]

I have Blizzak on my car in the winter time here in PA and so far (after 2 winters) have no problem! The only bad thing is that they are mounted on ugly steel rims but they keep me off of ditches. :)

[Three20FivexiT]

Cmon guy. Get some snow tires. Sure you will have to fork out some cash for a set of rims and tires, but would you rather pay for the repairs after you slide into a lightpost as a result of driving on summer tires? I didn't think so. Also, you may or may not know this, but summer and winter tires are made of different rubber compounds and are each designed specifically for the season. The rubber in the summer tires can harden under cold temperatures and will provide NO traction. Winter tires can withstand cold temperatures and provide adequate traction. Take it from me. I live in Canada, and the winters are harsh. Winter tires are the norm here.

[obrock99]

Wow. This is the longest bashing post ever. Tires are definately common sense though. My roommate has an Audi 1.8t quattro (which has a phenomenal mechanical AWD i may add) and drive it with summer tires in the snow just for fun. Even in a car with AWD he slips sometimes. Therefore it's common sense that a car that is not AWD shouldn't think of having summers on.

If you're going to spend over 30k on a car, dont be stingy about dishing out a little extra for winter rims/tires.

[Orient330Ci]

The snow's coming down nicely here in Jersey.
I've got the Blizzaks on my 330Ci…I have to say, I can't believe how great these tires perform. They're fantastic.
There was anywhere from 3-5 inches covering the roads, and the tires were key to making it home.
The saddest moment was when we drove past another 330Ci. He was getting pulled onto a flatbed…the summer tires and /// wheels were still on the car. :tsk:

There's a little talk about the DSC in this thread. I have to say, I kept mine off. With the DSC on, I didn't have enough momentum at times because the throttle kept cutting out.
The snow was quite deep in places, so I needed to have more wheel spin.

The tires were key. :thumbup:

[dorkus]

I am from NY as well and used to use Contitouring all-season tires for winter use on a set of type 44 wheels ... they were excellent in the snow.

that's good to know, seeing as i have those tires (stock 325i) and there's about a foot of snow out right now... :P maybe i'll try to make a grocery run tomorrow after all, before my gf and i starve to death.

[beware_phog]

I have never driven a rear wheel drive car...just got 2005 330ci with performance package and much more..drove it to the gym just to see how it would react in the snow and i almost died ...twisting and turning every which way...spinning in and out i couldnt believe...meanwhile i was driving 2mph :mad:

www.tirerack.com....get a clue.

[phlsteve]

I just wanted to say that. They're not pretty... just Dunlop Graspics on steel wheels because I won't get off the cash for real wheels, but the tires are awesome.

1 ft of snow and I was able to effortlessly pull out of my snowed-in street parking space, drive everywhere on all sorts of roads in all kinds of conditions, and at the end of the day park back on the street (which, in Philly, requires having the car climb over snowmounds).

[cwsqbm]

www.tirerack.com....get a clue.


The page cannot be displayed. :confused:

I think he's be chided enough.

[andy_thomas]

:bs: Almost died? Spinning out? Did you have DSC off? If you did, then all I can think is :rolleyes: .
Indeed. At 2 mph you can practically get out of the car and walk alongside it as it's crashing :D. I am reminded of many years ago (the last time it snowed and settled in SE England) when I saw a Ford Sierra - a midsize-ish family 4-door - leaving the road and bouncing off a curb, at incredibly slow speeds. It looked almost comical - I think I saw the driver, unable to control proceedings, climbing into the back of the car to read the paper.

[dlloyd1975]

It was not a lot of fun and I was always on edge, so now I run all seasons :(

I hate them due to the handling loss, but I cannot justify a new set of rims/tires for one snow or so a year. Heck, this year it has only snowed really once and the streets were plowed by the time I got up in the morning. We may not have any real snow at all...further sinks my case for snows.

For me, it's not just the snow, but also the rain in winter. The WinterSport M2s I've got perform far better than the Dunlop SP Sport 2000 (still the original tires) for very cold rainy conditions. Trust me, winter tires make a big difference in this area.

[msbrown]

...(relatively speaking) has its advantages. Back in the day, almost all cars were RWD, and drivers in snowy areas knew how to drive it. FWD has spoiled the lot of ya :D.

Mostly though, not nearly as many sedans came with the "performance" tires that are standard offerings now. All-seasons aren't much better, but II'll bet I can handle an unloaded pickup with all-seasons better than a BMW 3-er with Yokos. Some of it is practice, but not having the wrong "equipment" is better.....

[jsc]

...(relatively speaking) has its advantages. Back in the day, almost all cars were RWD, and drivers in snowy areas knew how to drive it. FWD has spoiled the lot of ya :D.

Mostly though, not nearly as many sedans came with the "performance" tires that are standard offerings now. All-seasons aren't much better, but II'll bet I can handle an unloaded pickup with all-seasons better than a BMW 3-er with Yokos. Some of it is practice, but not having the wrong "equipment" is better.....
I can tell you that there hasn't been a snow fall here in Calgary in the 5 years I've owned my E46 where an unladen 2WD pickup with all-seasons has been able to accelerate better than the BMW with winter tyres. Most neighbours with 2WD pickups don't bother to try accessing their rear garages on the steep snow-covered alley, I have no problem ascending the hill with my E46 coupe.

[msbrown]

I can tell you that there hasn't been a snow fall here in Calgary in the 5 years I've owned my E46 where an unladen 2WD pickup with all-seasons has been able to accelerate better than the BMW with winter tyres. Most neighbours with 2WD pickups don't bother to try accessing their rear garages on the steep snow-covered alley, I have no problem ascending the hill with my E46 coupe.
A BMW with winter tires - well that's having the "right equipment", eh?

[Aknatar]

another idea ( and i am assuming you haven't driven a rear wheel drive car in the winter before) is to take your car to a large snowy parking lot some where and drive it around throw it into slides get a feel for how it reacts.. have fun (don't get arrested) it will give you an excellent feel for how the car reacts to diferent situations.. and remember traction control isn't always you friend in the snow... it sounds stupid to say that but you lose alot of contol with it on.. i personally turn it off in the snow.. just my preference..


I almost got hit at the train station by two people doing just that....MAKE SURE THE DAMN LOT IS EMPTY!

[Precision]

I have never driven a rear wheel drive car...just got 2005 330ci with performance package and much more..drove it to the gym just to see how it would react in the snow and i almost died ...twisting and turning every which way...spinning in and out i couldnt believe...meanwhile i was driving 2mph :mad:

Just to give you a clear idea of what a dramatic difference there is between summer-only performance tires and all season tires in the snow...

My wife and I both had Honda CRXs when we first got married. She had the base CRX with stock Michelin all seasons. I had the CRX Si with Yokohama A008s.

It snowed about four inches. We lived in a flat neighborhood. My car would get suck on flat ground! I could get anywhere in her car.

From that year on I have always purchased snow tires.

Just to give you an idea how much better modern snow tires are than all seasons in the snow...

My recent 528i Sport with Goodyear snows is better than my wife's 4x4 MDX with the stock all-seasons in the snow. It stops better, accelerates faster, and corners with more confidence in either snow or ice. The only exception is when the snow is so high that ground clearance is a problem.

[Roadhawk]

Welcome precision.

Yoko A008s are (were?) a great performance tire - I ran them on my MR2 and could turn on a dime...but...they are practically slicks - so I couldn't imagine driving in any kind of snow (they didn't even do so well in the rain or cold).

But yeah...snow tires for snow - its pretty simple - anything else is a comprimise.

[rjh325]

I traded in my Audi A4 quattro w/ all-season Contis for a new 2005 325 sport. I too almost killed myeslf in an inch of snow. I've been looking on ebay for cheap set of winter wheels ever since.

[rjh325]

I plan to get 16" oem wheels and some Dunlop winter tires. I had a similar set-up for my Boxster and she handled great in the snow.

[dlloyd1975]

I plan to get 16" oem wheels and some Dunlop winter tires. I had a similar set-up for my Boxster and she handled great in the snow.

Doing it again, I think I'd just order the winter tires pre-mounted from TireRack.com on whatever's cheapest alloys that they sell there. Getting the tires, plus the rims from ebay (which in itself was a real pain), then having them mounted just took more time. Plus, with potholes, it's likely that if you don't drive much new rims might not be such a bad idea by the time it's time to replace the winter tires.

[10e]

Yep,

Living up here in wonderful ole' snow country it's definitely an advantage to have snow tires. When I picked up my 330i ZHP manual at the dealership the sales person explicitly told me that it comes with summer performance tires and that I should get a set of four snows. Some people like to only put snow tires on the driving wheels, but unfortunately with rear wheel drive, steering is not done with the drive wheels.

I admit that since this was the first winter with my car I took a late Sunday evening jaunt out to the local Toyota warehouse and turned off the DSC and CBC and did donuts and fooled around. I can't say what it would have been like with the summer tires, 'cause I bought Pirelli Snow Sport 210's in 225/45/17 on a set of M3 replicas. I like these tires for dry weather, and they are OK for snow, but I should have gone with the Dunlop Winter sport M3s or the Michelin Pilot Alpin PA2s. I had a set of the latter on my old Altima and they were admirable without DSC, CBC, or TC (I had a manual V6 which had none of these features, just ABS). Night and day difference. Either way, the Pirellis improve things enough to make winter a lot more comfy to drive in.

I would assume the Vredesteins are much better in snow. I watched a TV special about Vredestein and they definitely have their stuff together regarding winter tires. I would deign to imagine that the Swedes in general have it together in snow tires. With -40 celsius / -40 farenheit weather they must have some experience with winter driving. You give up some handling in dry, but the big advantage I find with snows is braking in inclement weather. Handling and steering accuracy is far improved as well.

AWD is an advantage, but realistically, if someone in front of you panic stops, or does something silly in bad weather and you need to stop, you will likely be very happy with your decision regarding the tires, as AWD does nothing for stopping.

Good luck,

10e

[norihaga]

Wow. This is the longest bashing post ever. Tires are definately common sense though. My roommate has an Audi 1.8t quattro (which has a phenomenal mechanical AWD i may add) and drive it with summer tires in the snow just for fun. Even in a car with AWD he slips sometimes. Therefore it's common sense that a car that is not AWD shouldn't think of having summers on.

If you're going to spend over 30k on a car, dont be stingy about dishing out a little extra for winter rims/tires.
Especially long given the original poster pointed out about 4 posts in that he had already learned from his experiment and got some winter tires... :rofl:

[Moderato]

..........but unfortunately with rear wheel drive, steering is not done with the drive wheels........




I think you ment to say fortunately. :)

[norihaga]

I think you ment to say fortunately. :)
What does he mean, steering is not done with the rear wheels? :D

[swchang]

What does he mean, steering is not done with the rear wheels? :D

It is on the Infiniti M45. Well, sorta.

[jaisonline]

I have never driven a rear wheel drive car...just got 2005 330ci with performance package and much more..drove it to the gym just to see how it would react in the snow and i almost died ...twisting and turning every which way...spinning in and out i couldnt believe...meanwhile i was driving 2mph :mad:

i wrote a ton of posts about this. i had rwd cars my whole life. they are terrible (when compared to awd and even some fwd) in the snow even equipped w/ snow tires. many rwd people (not all people so don't take offense) on this site never had awd. they may have a decent rwd snow setup but that doesnt mean u will. driving and road conditions are just as important as tires when driving in the snow and ice.

snow tires will improve your overall snow traction. however, i wouldn't want to change tires twice a year. too much bs.

u can go w/ a "better" high performance/all season tire. read the reviews on tirerack or ask around here.

ps: i do agree w/ the 2nd poster about your high performance tires. when possible (or rather when they wear out in a yr), replace w/ better tires.

[pony_trekker]

i wrote a ton of posts about this. i had rwd cars my whole life. they are terrible (when compared to awd and even some fwd) in the snow even equipped w/ snow tires. many rwd people (not all people so don't take offense) on this site never had awd. they may have a decent rwd snow setup but that doesnt mean u will. driving and road conditions are just as important as tires when driving in the snow and ice.

snow tires will improve your overall snow traction. however, i wouldn't want to change tires twice a year. too much bs.

u can go w/ a "better" high performance/all season tire. read the reviews on tirerack or ask around here.

ps: i do agree w/ the 2nd poster about your high performance tires. when possible (or rather when they wear out in a yr), replace w/ better tires.
I agree. I have a 4wd ford explorer with underinflarted baldies. I speed all over the place in the snow because I am a real man. It's a 4wd SUV, it's got to be safer, right?

[agabriel]

This isn't a bash against the poster, but once you see you car isn't performing - go home. I think all of those idiots that do there commute and can't keep there car tracking straight should be given a moving violation at a min. They are dangerous; the first storm of the season I was almost hit by three cars and two pickup tracks that couldn't track to save their lives. If you can't afford to by the type of rubber needed by your vehicle to track straight, you can't afford to go out that day.

[motor_werke]

I agree. I have a 4wd ford explorer with underinflarted baldies. I speed all over the place in the snow because I am a real man. It's a 4wd SUV, it's got to be safer, right?

Haha.. I was driving home from a ski trip 2 weeks ago, in the snow storm we had here in the northeast. I saw 12 vehicles in the ditch in the course of the 100 or so miles home. 11 of the 12 where trucks and SUV's, only one was a car. The whole time we saw SUV's and trucks flying by in the left lane, even though there was black ice on the road. They think they are invincible with 4WD or AWD, when in fact they have significantly more mass, and all-season tires. Such a shame.

Good thing to bring this thread back from the dead to hopefully inform people.

On a side note, I know a friend who traded their 4WD Explorer for a 330xi and they say the 330xi was far superior to the Explorer in the snow. Too much mass in larger vehciles!

[Apollothedog]

I just bought a 05 330i and was thinking of replacing the tires with Nokian WRs for all year use. These are winter based all season tires and had them on my Saaburu 92x.

I know the Saaburu was all wheel drive, but these tires went through everything. Anybody have any idea how well they would do on the rwd 330i?

[jsc]

snow tires will improve your overall snow traction. however, i wouldn't want to change tires twice a year. too much bs.
As I like to stop and turn as well as accelerate, it is a given that winter tyres are advisable here in Calgary many times each winter, no matter whether you drive an AWD, FWD or RWD vehicle. Assuming one likes to drive safely by equipping one's vehicle with the right tyres, an RWD BMW does very well. This week so far we have had over 20cm of snow, "300 accident" days (when there are more than 300 fender benders in this city of 1 million in the same day), my 323Ci has coped just as well as usual, no need for AWD.

[andysat]

someone we know uses some weight spread over his boot-says it works ok:dunno:

[HW]

my 323ci shod w/ hankook w300's is working nicely in snowy southern ontario.:D

now it's the sheets of ice on my car that really sucks. especially when it warms up a bit and starts flying off my hood when it gets slightly warmer. :eeps: never had i ever had to deal w/ that in vancouver!

[Silver328i]

I had Blizzak ws-50 tires for a few days and changed back to my reg mud and snow performance tire. The Blizzacks were horrible. It make the rear end of my car weave and wobble so bad I actually thought my back wheel lugnuts were loose and the wheels were coming off. No more of that! It felt like driving a bowl of jello. I thought too it might severely mess up my suspension with all the wobble and torsional stresses side to side.

I'd rather have to burn my way on an ice spot and have regular handling. My m/s performance tires aren't that bad in snow - just not as much bite as winter tires like I have on my other vehicles. But with a stick shift I can ride the clutch to get a decent start or even just start out in 2nd gear instead.

[Xi_red]

A lot of this depends on driving style and snow tires.

I have never lived in a climate where snow tires were needed...one measureable snow a year at most, and even then no more than 2~3 inches. On those rare occasions, I was caught on snow with my summer tires, I found the car to be VERY stable and easily controled when driven carefully. Wheel slip was minimal, minimal ABS/ACS intervention due to excelent car balance and feedbak allowing me to tell what the car was doing.

I have never driven an AWD car, but my RWD BMW is far better in the snow than any FWD car I have owned/driven.


Uh yeah....I used to drive a FWD Saab convertible....remember we got a good foot of snow during the day...I made it home from the train station that afternoon....I counted at least 6 nice looking Bimmers on the roadside spinning. Those drivers were either walking that day or waiting for a tow truck.

I bought the AWD version when I went BMW. Why? Cause you aint gonna go anywhere in a northeastern snow...and for those who want a shot at the slopes after a good storm....AWD is the only answer....

[dtkw]

The first year we bought the car, 740iL with all season tires on. winter came earlier than expected, we went to the blockbuster to rent a movie. getting there was a little tricky, but we probably stayed inside a little too long, a few inches of fresh snow was covering the parking lot, the car got stuck and couldn't move. fortunately, a few freindly people came and helped us move the car off the deepest snow area. Next winter, I switched to the blizzak ws-50. It was snowing again when I had to go to work, the car with the snow tires made a day and night diffrence. even going up a driveway without missing a bit. so, I switched the tires in mid nov and switch them back in spring.

[ProV1]

my 16" Hankook W300 icebear tires are INCREDIBLE on snow. Completely transformed my BMW. my local discount tire guys did a great job on balancing as well... best thing about them is that they handle/ride beautifully on dry, which is about 80% of the time here in SE MI during winter.

[SizzlerMA]

i had rwd cars my whole life. they are terrible (when compared to awd and even some fwd) in the snow even equipped w/ snow tires.
I'm sorry, I simply cannot disagree with this more strongly. I lived in Winnipeg, Canada for 22 years, one of the coldest, snowiest and iciest large cities in the world, so I know a thing or two about driving in snow and ice.

Simply stated, my RWD BMW with snow tires handles better than any FWD car with Allseasons that I've ever driven. Hands down. There can be no debate.

It has been demonstrated conclusively, by Road and Track, Car and Driver and IIHS that:
1) 95% of all winter accidents are caused by inability tyo brake or loss of lateral stability.
2) AWD, tires aside, does NOT help with stopping or lateral stability. In fact, AWD hurst stopping ability since it adds about 200 lbs.
3) Driving carefully counts for a lot. No sudden inputs.
So the point is, RWD + snow tires will generally be safer than AWD + all seasons. Sure, if you get a Subaru XT with 8.7 inches of ground clearance AND snow tires, you'll have the best of both worlds, but the AWD only helps you get going and hence does not significantly reduce the likelihood of an accident.

[solsurfr]

The XI's aren't really popular in this board when it comes to this debate but I do feel strongly about the platform and it's performance in inclement weather. Here in the 'burbs of Philly we don't get New England type snowfall but we do have some bad winters and with the hilly backroads, I couldn't be happier with my XI. It's a solid performer with AS tires in all conditions and coupled with common-sense driving, it's awesome. I have a few friends with RWD E46's and they ALL b!tch about driving in the snow. They don't want to bother with the expense or time to put snows on during the winter months and neither do I. With that, I feel that I have a definite advantage right out-of-the-box. Apples to apples, I think putting on snows on both systems would be the right test. Just my opinion.

[HW]

They don't want to bother with the expense or time to put snows on during the winter months and neither do I. With that, I feel that I have a definite advantage right out-of-the-box. Apples to apples, I think putting on snows on both systems would be the right test. Just my opinion.

:dunno: :tsk: insurance increase due to an accident costs way more in $$$ in time.

[solsurfr]

:dunno: :tsk: insurance increase due to an accident costs way more in $$$ in time.

That is a general rule for all of us sharing the road but yes, if more people put on snows in the winter then maybe insurance costs will go down. How probable is that though? Not very. :tsk:

[BBBMW]

My first experience without snow tires on was returning from Vegas. It snowed while we were gone and on the way home from the airport I ran through three red lights. I never got stuck until I was home in the driveway!!
I didn't drive the car again until the Blizzak's were on.
Winter tires are like driving with velcro on....

[jaisonline]

I'm sorry, I simply cannot disagree with this more strongly. I lived in Winnipeg, Canada for 22 years, one of the coldest, snowiest and iciest large cities in the world, so I know a thing or two about driving in snow and ice.

Simply stated, my RWD BMW with snow tires handles better than any FWD car with Allseasons that I've ever driven. Hands down. There can be no debate.

It has been demonstrated conclusively, by Road and Track, Car and Driver and IIHS that:
1) 95% of all winter accidents are caused by inability tyo brake or loss of lateral stability.
2) AWD, tires aside, does NOT help with stopping or lateral stability. In fact, AWD hurst stopping ability since it adds about 200 lbs.
3) Driving carefully counts for a lot. No sudden inputs.
So the point is, RWD + snow tires will generally be safer than AWD + all seasons. Sure, if you get a Subaru XT with 8.7 inches of ground clearance AND snow tires, you'll have the best of both worlds, but the AWD only helps you get going and hence does not significantly reduce the likelihood of an accident.

1 and 3. i agree. these are "captain obvious" statement :) just kidding. i do agree.
2. i agree. stopping can be is generally worse with awd than fwd (depends on conditions and vehicle speed). however, i doubt rwd stops better than most modern awd cars. awd systems are so advance now to aid braking.
4. the same can then be said when comparing awd w/ snow tires will generally be safer than rwd snows

if anyone has rwd w/ snows here's a challenge. let's take the same route in the snow while traveling in manayunk (part pf phila.). that's prob the most hilly area around the phila. area. put your money where your mouth is. i have friends w/ rwd bmws and mercedes w/ snows. they an not drive up/down the steep terrace st challenge nor most other hills. i have ZERO probs.

ok, i'm really not challenging anyone. who would have thought that rwd owners are so defensive? this argument is too much like yankees vs. red sox, mustang vs camero, and left wing vs right wing. jeez ;)

[jaisonline]

The XI's aren't really popular in this board when it comes to this debate but I do feel strongly about the platform and it's performance in inclement weather. Here in the 'burbs of Philly we don't get New England type snowfall but we do have some bad winters and with the hilly backroads, I couldn't be happier with my XI. It's a solid performer with AS tires in all conditions and coupled with common-sense driving, it's awesome. I have a few friends with RWD E46's and they ALL b!tch about driving in the snow. They don't want to bother with the expense or time to put snows on during the winter months and neither do I. With that, I feel that I have a definite advantage right out-of-the-box. Apples to apples, I think putting on snows on both systems would be the right test. Just my opinion.


AMEN fellow Philadelphian. Well said.

[jaisonline]

I agree. I have a 4wd ford explorer with underinflarted baldies. I speed all over the place in the snow because I am a real man. It's a 4wd SUV, it's got to be safer, right?


oh, ok? .....um, great post. keep up the good work.

[solsurfr]

AMEN fellow Philadelphian. Well said.

Go birds. :) ! We're a small crew of believers on this board but generally, we are talking to the racecar drivers around here who speed around orange cones on the weekends, hahaha (ok, not all of you I know). The debate is endless but I've owned an Isuzu Amigo AWD SUV, (still own) Honda Pilot (my wifes), RWD cars, FWD cars, and now an XI and without a doubt, my XI coupled with impeccable German engineering, common-sense driving, etc., is the hands-down winner when it comes to winter driving. And I would guess that adding snows to my XI, would make it that much better but I barely have the time to wash my car let alone set a saturday or sunday aside and jack my car up to put on another set of tires. :p

[ff]

Simply stated, my RWD BMW with snow tires handles better than any FWD car with Allseasons that I've ever driven. Hands down.


Agree completely. I've posted the exact same comment here many times.

[HW]

Agree completely. I've posted the exact same comment here many times.

agree here too. steers really well in the snow and i so far (fingers crossed, knock on wood) have not had any problems. :eek: :eeps:

[adgrant]

I'm sorry, I simply cannot disagree with this more strongly. I lived in Winnipeg, Canada for 22 years, one of the coldest, snowiest and iciest large cities in the world, so I know a thing or two about driving in snow and ice.

Simply stated, my RWD BMW with snow tires handles better than any FWD car with Allseasons that I've ever driven. Hands down. There can be no debate.

It has been demonstrated conclusively, by Road and Track, Car and Driver and IIHS that:
1) 95% of all winter accidents are caused by inability tyo brake or loss of lateral stability.
2) AWD, tires aside, does NOT help with stopping or lateral stability. In fact, AWD hurst stopping ability since it adds about 200 lbs.
3) Driving carefully counts for a lot. No sudden inputs.
So the point is, RWD + snow tires will generally be safer than AWD + all seasons. Sure, if you get a Subaru XT with 8.7 inches of ground clearance AND snow tires, you'll have the best of both worlds, but the AWD only helps you get going and hence does not significantly reduce the likelihood of an accident.

Why are we even discussing FWD on a BMW board? But FWIW, FWD cars could not get up my driveway any better than I could get a RWD car up the driveway. I don't buy the FWD better in the snow arguement.

Completely agree with your other points however, 95% of accidents are really caused by the idiot behind the wheel not following point 3.

Also AWD helps me with stopping since I can drive more slowly without worrying about getting stuck.

[Moderato]

if anyone has rwd w/ snows here's a challenge. let's take the same route in the snow while traveling in manayunk (part pf phila.). that's prob the most hilly area around the phila. area. put your money where your mouth is. i have friends w/ rwd bmws and mercedes w/ snows. they an not drive up/down the steep terrace st challenge nor most other hills. i have ZERO probs.

ok, i'm really not challenging anyone. who would have thought that rwd owners are so defensive? this argument is too much like yankees vs. red sox, mustang vs camero, and left wing vs right wing. jeez ;)You're right, why is it that RWD owner's always want to compare RWD w/snows to AWD w/all seasons? AWD with snows will go up any snow covered hill much easier and faster then RWD with snows. If you don't have to deal with hills then RWD with snows is more then adequate, but as soon as you put some steep hills in the mix AWD w/snows will get you where you need to go with much less worry.

[solsurfr]

You're right, why is it that RWD owner's always want to compare RWD w/snows to AWD w/all seasons? AWD with snows will go up any snow covered hill much easier and faster then RWD with snows. If you don't have to deal with hills then RWD with snows is more then adequate, but as soon as you put some steep hills in the mix AWD w/snows will get you where you need to go with much less worry.

Finally, someone else gets it! :D I find it funny that people have to put on snows on a RWD to even compare it to AWD with AS tires. I'll say it again... do a comparison between the two platforms with the SAME tires then get back to me.

What about the E46i with AS tires vs. E46XI with performance tires on a racetrack? Who wins? :rofl:

[dima123]

I have never driven a rear wheel drive car...just got 2005 330ci with performance package and much more..drove it to the gym just to see how it would react in the snow and i almost died ...twisting and turning every which way...spinning in and out i couldnt believe...meanwhile i was driving 2mph :mad:

welcome to the club :mad:

[swchang]

Finally, someone else gets it! :D I find it funny that people have to put on snows on a RWD to even compare it to AWD with AS tires. I'll say it again... do a comparison between the two platforms with the SAME tires then get back to me.

What about the E46i with AS tires vs. E46XI with performance tires on a racetrack? Who wins? :rofl:

I think people do that because it's pretty obvious AWD w/ AS will beat RWD w/ AS and AWD w/ snows will beat RWD w/ snows. Not in terms of stopping distance at the same speed, but certainly in terms of getting where you want to go if you're driving carefully.

However, many people, like yourself, will make the decision to get AWD in lieu of putting snow tires on. This is why such comparisons are made. If everyone, AWD or not, put snow tires on, this argument would never come up.

Now, as a challenge to you, try putting snows on and see what kind of difference it makes sometime. Remember, snow tires aren't just for the snow. They're better when the weather is just plain colder, too. :)

[mookjohnson]

You're right, why is it that RWD owner's always want to compare RWD w/snows to AWD w/all seasons? AWD with snows will go up any snow covered hill much easier and faster then RWD with snows. If you don't have to deal with hills then RWD with snows is more then adequate, but as soon as you put some steep hills in the mix AWD w/snows will get you where you need to go with much less worry.

You are right. However, that comparison is made because it is the practical comparison to make. AWD bimmers come w/ all seasons, while most RWD's come w/ performance/summers. Therefore, most AWD owners stick w/ the all seasons rather than go through that annoying change us RWD owners have to go through twice a year, i.e., putting on snows in the fall and the reverse in the spring.

Since the above is the most common situation, the comparison is the rational comparison to make. I doubt anyone would make the argument that AWD w/ snows is not in every situation better than RWD w/ snows.

[solsurfr]

I think people do that because it's pretty obvious AWD w/ AS will beat RWD w/ AS and AWD w/ snows will beat RWD w/ snows. Not in terms of stopping distance at the same speed, but certainly in terms of getting where you want to go if you're driving carefully.

However, many people, like yourself, will make the decision to get AWD in lieu of putting snow tires on. This is why such comparisons are made. If everyone, AWD or not, put snow tires on, this argument would never come up.

Now, as a challenge to you, try putting snows on and see what kind of difference it makes sometime. Remember, snow tires aren't just for the snow. They're better when the weather is just plain colder, too. :)

I hear ya but it seems the debate sometimes gets confused as to which tires are better? AS vs Snows, etc. It is the platform we are talking about and not the tires. Of course, tires makes a world of difference --it's common knowledge. Why not just pose these questions then vote?

1. What tires are better for snowy weather? Snow or All-seasons?
2. What car would you feel more comfortable in during a blizzard? XI or I?
3. What car would you want to drive on road course in sunny california? XI or I?

That is apples to apples and the answers are obvious. No modding necessary. If mods are necessary, then it should go both ways, right?

It's a tired debate and I guess there's all kinds of perspectives. Sure, snows will help but snows will help ANY car.

[HW]

comparison between winters/AS and rwd/fwd/awd

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=3888&page_number=1

awd only helps to accelerate (and go up hills), nothing more. but if you go up a hill, at some point you will need to go down.

[jaisonline]

one prob w/ these tests is that we dont always know how the drivers break in what conditions. sure, most rwd will break shorter than awd in a straight line but what about coming to a stop while sliding through an snowy icy intersection?

how many drivers slam the break when sliding and remaining straight until they come to a complete stop? not many from my experience. concurrent breaking and sliding is the main and maybe ONLY real area where awd shines over rwd. it's a combo of physics and technology. instead of relying on only 2 drive wheels to help straighten the car, u now have 4 drive wheels.

i can't tell u how many times having awd helped keep my the rear-end from sliding outward (fish tailing). my friends' rwd german cars and mustangs w/ and w/o snows really can't say the same in the scenario outlined above.

[adgrant]

comparison between winters/AS and rwd/fwd/awd

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=3888&page_number=1

awd only helps to accelerate (and go up hills), nothing more. but if you go up a hill, at some point you will need to go down.

I find being able to go up hills quite important. Going down hills is easy in any car AWD/RWD/FWD. You just have to drive slowly and in a low gear.

[Moderato]

You are right. However, that comparison is made because it is the practical comparison to make. AWD bimmers come w/ all seasons, while most RWD's come w/ performance/summers. Therefore, most AWD owners stick w/ the all seasons rather than go through that annoying change us RWD owners have to go through twice a year, i.e., putting on snows in the fall and the reverse in the spring.

Since the above is the most common situation, the comparison is the rational comparison to make. I doubt anyone would make the argument that AWD w/ snows is not in every situation better than RWD w/ snows.Good point. Most people who buy the Xi probably don't worry about snow tires, or don't care etc. RWD owners are more concerned with performance & thus care enought to replace the tires. Personally on my Outback I've been fine with all season tires, but with my 330 & STI I go with high performance snows. Maybe I just care more about "my" cars. :)

[HW]

I find being able to go up hills quite important. Going down hills is easy in any car AWD/RWD/FWD. You just have to drive slowly and in a low gear.

winter tires have microscopic features that make them better on icey surfaces. when you can halt a few feet shorter, the better. :dunno: all those news videos of cars piling up down an icey slope, i'm sure they wished that they had a few more feet. but yeah uphill is just as important a being able to go downhill where an awd accels... but nothing neither fwd/rwd/awd makes a diff in braking and that's where winter tires come in.

just as from my own experience, summer tires felt way better against hydroplaning than my all-seasons.

[HW]

Good point. Most people who buy the Xi probably don't worry about snow tires, or don't care etc. RWD owners are more concerned with performance & thus care enought to replace the tires. Personally on my Outback I've been fine with all season tires, but with my 330 & STI I go with high performance snows. Maybe I just care more about "my" cars. :)

i was going to get hi-perf all seasons but reading that the best of the all-seasons is still not a match for the lowest of the summers just swayed me to change my mind about all seasons and go for the summers. i must say, going from the stock all seasons to pure summers made the car feel totally different. the wet weather perf is just incredible w/ the summers. the snow perf w/ the hi-perf winter tires have been just great as well. our bmw (3ers) are a compromise between sportiness and convenience but having the right tires just move their "personalities" to it's optimal for the environment.

[HW]

one prob w/ these tests is that we dont always know how the drivers break in what conditions. sure, most rwd will break shorter than awd in a straight line but what about coming to a stop while sliding through an snowy icy intersection?


do you accelerate at the same time that you're "breaking" :dunno: accelerating would be the only time you are using the awd. when you're braking, the extra drivetrain bits just adds to your momentum.

[Moderato]

i was going to get hi-perf all seasons but reading that the best of the all-seasons is still not a match for the lowest of the summers just swayed me to change my mind about all seasons and go for the summers. i must say, going from the stock all seasons to pure summers made the car feel totally different. the wet weather perf is just incredible w/ the summers. the snow perf w/ the hi-perf winter tires have been just great as well. our bmw (3ers) are a compromise between sportiness and convenience but having the right tires just move their "personalities" to it's optimal for the environment.Summer tires for the summer, winter tires for the winter. That's my motto. :thumbup:

[jaisonline]

do you accelerate at the same time that you're "breaking" :dunno: accelerating would be the only time you are using the awd. when you're braking, the extra drivetrain bits just adds to your momentum.

no. most awd systems (including bmw) automatically send power to any of the four wheels that are not slipping/spinning on ice/snow whereas power only gets allocated up to 2 rear wheels on rwd models. that alone is among the major benefits awd has over rwd.

[HW]

no. most awd systems (including bmw) automatically send power to any of the four wheels that are not slipping/spinning on ice/snow whereas power only gets allocated up to 2 rear wheels on rwd models. that alone is among the major benefits awd has over rwd.

but that doesn't happen during braking does it? it's only when the driver steps on the throttle and the computer senses that some wheels are slipping. during stopping, the computer regulates the braking. would be scary if it also regulates the throttle during braking.

[jaisonline]

but that doesn't happen during braking does it? it's only when the driver steps on the throttle and the computer senses that some wheels are slipping. during stopping, the computer regulates the braking. would be scary if it also regulates the throttle during braking.

no, it doesnt regulate throttle. whatever wheel is sensed to be losing traction, the system takes power away from that wheel(s) and allocates it to the others. that helps keep the car from sliding out of control. it's bascially the same stuff bmw rwd cars have but the awd models have a few extra traction bells and whistles. note: i really can't speak to the newer x-drive system because my car doesnt have that.

i was also thinking about the "hill descent control" feature that brakes the car when going down a hill in neutral but that's another story. really great feature though for steep descending hills.

[HW]

no, it doesnt regulate throttle. whatever wheel is sensed to be losing traction, the system takes power away from that wheel(s) and allocates it to the others. that helps keep the car from sliding out of control. it's bascially the same bmw rwd cars have but the awd models have a few extra traction bells and whistles. note: i really can't speak to the newer x-drive system because my car doesnt have that.

i was also thinking about the "hill descent control" feature that brakes the car when going down a hill in neutral but that's another story. really great feature though for steep descending hills.

i would think that decent control modulates the braking rather than throttle. like modulating the braking of each wheel independently depending on slip.

[330ximd]

but that doesn't happen during braking does it? it's only when the driver steps on the throttle and the computer senses that some wheels are slipping. during stopping, the computer regulates the braking. would be scary if it also regulates the throttle during braking.

This thread is becoming repetitive. I've found in New England, my colleagues and I have done comparisons of all our 3's in the snow, all with snow tires. It's quite obvious when we've sat in each others' cars, the AWD 3-series have much better control in acceleration and braking in the snow. Obviously, the rear wheel drive cars drove OK in the snow with the snow tires, but during the bad storms we get in Boston (1-2 feet at a time), even their cars got stuck in the snow, while the AWD's with snows didn't. All in all, everyone should just agree to disagree, I use my car w/ snows and it handles excellently in blizzards while my colleague's rear 330 can't do much (except spin tires) in the same awful snow storm even with snows.

[Moderato]

This thread is becoming repetitive. I've found in New England, my colleagues and I have done comparisons of all our 3's in the snow, all with snow tires. It's quite obvious when we've sat in each others' cars, the AWD 3-series have much better control in acceleration and braking in the snow. Obviously, the rear wheel drive cars drove OK in the snow with the snow tires, but during the bad storms we get in Boston (1-2 feet at a time), even their cars got stuck in the snow, while the AWD's with snows didn't. All in all, everyone should just agree to disagree, I use my car w/ snows and it handles excellently in blizzards while my colleague's rear 330 can't do much (except spin tires) in the same awful snow storm even with snows.:stupid:

[jaisonline]

i would think that decent control modulates the braking rather than throttle. like modulating the braking of each wheel independently depending on slip.
yeah, dhc brakes all 4 wheels and doesn't use the throttle. why do you keep talki9ng about throttle? there's no throttle/gas peddle in this. i never mentioned throttle. :)

[HW]

yeah, dhc brakes all 4 wheels and doesn't use the throttle. why do you keep talki9ng about throttle? there's no throttle/gas peddle in this. i never mentioned throttle. :)

that's the only time when all wheel drive is advantages .... otherwise awd is a disadvantage (extra weight).

[Moderato]

that's the only time when all wheel drive is advantages .... otherwise awd is a disadvantage (extra weight).AWD is a disadvantage that's why my STI has it as well as the EVO and the 911 Turbo, S4, Lambos, Skyline, etc.....

[HW]

AWD is a disadvantage that's why my STI has it as well as the EVO and the 911 Turbo, S4, Lambos, Skyline, etc.....

maybe i should have said it this way, awd is advantageous when it is actually driving the wheels (when you step on the throttle) else it is a disadvantage because of the extra weight during braking. :tsk:

[Moderato]

maybe i should have said it this way, awd is advantageous when it is actually driving the wheels (when you step on the throttle) else it is a disadvantage because of the extra weight during braking. :tsk:What about the advantages of AWD during corner exit? Wouldn't that offset the extra weight when comparing times?

[HW]

What about the advantages of AWD during corner exit? Wouldn't that offset the extra weight when comparing times?

one accelerates exiting a corner correct .... :dunno: i didn't say awd was only good at going up hill or just straight line did i :rolleyes:

[adgrant]

winter tires have microscopic features that make them better on icey surfaces. when you can halt a few feet shorter, the better. :dunno: all those news videos of cars piling up down an icey slope, i'm sure they wished that they had a few more feet. but yeah uphill is just as important a being able to go downhill where an awd accels... but nothing neither fwd/rwd/awd makes a diff in braking and that's where winter tires come in.

just as from my own experience, summer tires felt way better against hydroplaning than my all-seasons.


There is an easy way to shorten braking distance, drive more slowly. Those cars were probably piling up at the bottom of that slope because of the idiots behind the wheel, not the tires on the car (unless they were summer tires).

It is quite possible to get into an accident on an icy road with winter tires if you don't drive carefully enough. If you need to jam on the brakes when driving in snowy or icy conditions, you are not driving carefully enough.

[330ximd]

Ugh kill this thread. Please.

[jaisonline]

Ugh kill this thread. Please.


dude, for someone w/ only 12 posts why are you saying to kill this thread? don't read it. seriously, learn some forum manners.

[Moderato]

one accelerates exiting a corner correct .... :dunno: i didn't say awd was only good at going up hill or just straight line did i :rolleyes:So what you're saying is that AWD is good at going up hills, straight line, as well as exiting corners. Hmmm, sounds to me like you're saying AWD is a good thing. :p

[HW]

So what you're saying is that AWD is good at going up hills, straight line, as well as exiting corners. Hmmm, sounds to me like you're saying AWD is a good thing. :p

i never said it was a bad thing. i was just saying that it does help w/ down hill and braking as some seems to think. for that, it's the tires. :dunno: so.... awd + all seasons don't cover all your bases.

[Moderato]

i was just saying that it does help w/ down hill and braking as some seems to think. Just when I thought you knew what you were talking about. AWD does NOT help with down hill & braking. :tsk:


BTW - before you have a cow, I'm just kidding with you. I know that was a typo. :p

[swchang]

Ugh kill this thread. Please.

Jeff?

[ff]

Also AWD helps me with stopping since I can drive more slowly without worrying about getting stuck.

If you're not driving in deep mud, 3' deep snow, or going into the ditch, how does "getting stuck" ever enter into the equation? I drove through 18 years of MN winters in everything from a 2WD Dodge Dakota with all season tires and without any type of traction aides, to an AWD 4Runner all sorts of traction aides. Never once was I stuck, or even close to "stuck" in the snow.

And you seem to have forgotten about the extra weight that AWD adds. More weight = greater stopping distances, all else being equal. How does that help you with stopping?

[lexhair]

Two snow events since I've had my AWD and I can say the AWD would be much better if my Michelin MXV4 Energy A/S didn't suck so bad in the wet/snow. I can't even imagine driving a RWD with these in the snow. I'm hoping I put enough mileage on them so I can justify new shoes for next winter.

[Moderato]

Two snow events since I've had my AWD and I can say the AWD would be much better if my Michelin MXV4 Energy A/S didn't suck so bad in the wet/snow. I can't even imagine driving a RWD with these in the snow. I'm hoping I put enough mileage on them so I can justify new shoes for next winter.Those tires are low rolling resistance, high fuel economy therefore they are absolutely horrible in the snow. In fact they're probably just barely better then summer performance tires in the winter. I used to have them that's how I know.

[Brent P]

Here's a tip that will help. Get a couple of sandbags and put them in the trunk over the wheel wells. Two per side works even better. It will help the tires bite better, and the extra swing weight will help reduce the tendancy of the rear end to spin out. Combined with a good set of snow tires (on all four corners, always) you will feel invincible.

[adgrant]

If you're not driving in deep mud, 3' deep snow, or going into the ditch, how does "getting stuck" ever enter into the equation? I drove through 18 years of MN winters in everything from a 2WD Dodge Dakota with all season tires and without any type of traction aides, to an AWD 4Runner all sorts of traction aides. Never once was I stuck, or even close to "stuck" in the snow.

And you seem to have forgotten about the extra weight that AWD adds. More weight = greater stopping distances, all else being equal. How does that help you with stopping?

I guess you don't have hills in MN. Here in the NYC area, plenty of cars here seem to have trouble making it uphill in a snow storm.

The extra weight that AWD adds is overblown, its not that much of a big deal. More weight may equal extra stopping distance all things being equal but who said everything was equal. The best way to reduce stopping distance is to drive slower. Thats what I do, it works great.

[lexhair]

Those tires are low rolling resistance, high fuel economy therefore they are absolutely horrible in the snow. In fact they're probably just barely better then summer performance tires in the winter. I used to have them that's how I know.May I ask what you replaced them with?

[Moderato]

May I ask what you replaced them with?I never had those tires on any of my BMW's. I had them on my Jetta TDI. Let me tell you, the were great for fuel economy but in the snow the car was horrible. Although the Jetta that I had, had an OPEN diff :rolleyes: and NO traction control or ABD, it wasn't even an option at the time I bought it. :rolleyes: But regardless those tires are great for fuel eco, but horrible for anyting else. I later on got different 17's with summer tires for the Jetta, but ultimately I sold it for my 04 STi.

Sorry I got so long winded, but if you're looking for replacement tires I could make some recomendations, but are you looking for summer, all - season or winter tires for your 325?

[lexhair]

Sorry I got so long winded, but if you're looking for replacement tires I could make some recomendations, but are you looking for summer, all - season or winter tires for your 325?All seasons for my 325xi. I'll give up a little dry pavement performance for something better in the wet/slush. Thanks in advance.

[HW]

All seasons for my 325xi. I'll give up a little dry pavement performance for something better in the wet/slush. Thanks in advance.

the wet performance of summer tires are actually just as good if not better than a/s or snows... unless these summer tires says it's strictly for dry.

[lexhair]

the wet performance of summer tires are actually just as good if not better than a/s or snows... unless these summer tires says it's strictly for dry.No offense but is this an overgeneralization or is this true across all manufacturer's product lines?

[swchang]

No offense but is this an overgeneralization or is this true across all manufacturer's product lines?

I think it's almost always, if not always, true, but I've never looked at the specs for every single tire line out there. At the very least, it's general folklore.

Summers (really, warm temps) and winters (more appropriately, cold temps, i.e. <50 F) for 365 days of driving hard.
All-seasons for 365 days of driving moderately (and being too lazy and/or cheap to have the "right tires" mounted). :p

[samchae]

lol yea, no diferent with mercedes or a porsche...performance cars tend to be horrible in the snow but it's the price we all pay for a nice car :) good luck!

[jaisonline]

This is quite an old thread. I don't intend on reopening it but decided to include some new info. I saw something today on Consumer Reports web site that I found interesting.

In their Quick Pick Recommendation section:

For more winter traction:
Continental ContiExtremeContact, $106
Sumitomo HTR +, $86

These trade ultimate dry and wet grip for better traction in snow. The Continental and Sumitomo did as well in the snow as a dedicated winter tire used as a control in our test.

I owned the ContiExtremeContact on my car before getting a great deal on V-rated BFG Traction T/As. The T/As are great but I do miss the ContiExtremeContacts.

Might be two good tire options for RWD owners instead of snows.

[325cisport]

Try some all terrain or mud tires, that might help. Of course you may need to put a lift kit on it too. Either that or save the bmw for dry/non snowy weather weather.

[Chris90]

the wet performance of summer tires are actually just as good if not better than a/s or snows... unless these summer tires says it's strictly for dry.

The stiff sidewall of summer tires helps with channeling water by retaining its shape better.

[Zwanzigoetzel]

After hearing all these horror stories from fellow BMW owners how horrible the BMWs performs in the winter, I was very positively surprised how well my ZHP (without winter tires) handled when we had our first snow/ice.
I had plenty of traction, didn't slide or break out too much and I always felt safe in my car. :thumbup:
I think a lot has to do with someones driving skills as well because even in Germany where there is plenty of snow and ice every winter I never put on snow tires and drove over 10 winters without an accident. Only once I slid in the ditch, while taking the curve a little too fast....:eek:

By the way, I wish my fellow BMW friends a Happy and safe New Year!

Zwanzigoetzel

[Moderato]

The stiff sidewall of summer tires helps with channeling water by retaining its shape better.So because of this summer tires are better on wet roads then A/S tires? I didn't know that.

[Fast Bob]

So because of this summer tires are better on wet roads then A/S tires? I didn't know that.

Actually, it has less to do with sidewall stiffness, and more to do with the fact that purely summer tires have lots less sipes (cuts) on the tread surface, giving more grip area per square inch of contact . If you push them hard on a wet skidpad (to just below the breakaway threshold), you can really feel the summer tires bite right through the water`s surface to the pavement below. And conversely, summer tires that are just about worn out will be grippy as hell on dry pavement (less tread depth to squirm around = more direct feel).

Regards,
Bob