Reading all of this E90 talk, it's clear two camps are emerging...

[TD]

- Camp 1 - The group that automatically assumes the E90 will be better than the E46 in every measurable way and looks forward to buying theirs.

- Camp 2 - Mostly E46 owners - Criticising the E90 for it's looks, bloat, etc and suggesting that the E46 was the pinnacle of 3-series design.

Of course, we've been down this road before.

Camp 1 will continue to be seen by camp 2 as vain badge buyers who have to have the latest thing even if it sucks. Camp 2 will be seen by camp 1 as jealous owners of a vehicle that is no longer the latest and greatest.

Meanwhile, posts regarding the E90 will focus on the new-car angle (ordering, waiting, option and color choices) while posts for the E46 will shift to maintenance/repair issues. This alone may motivate some members of camp 2 to buy the E90 and jump over to camp 1.

Inevitably someone will refer to the change from an E46 to an E90 as an "upgrade" and a myriad of E46 loyalists will get offended. Still more will get offended at references to the E46 looking "dated".

Yet some E46 owners will happily hold on to their E46s because, to them, the car is what they want. They like it. And they see no reason to buy a new one just because a new one came out.

Of course, all of this happened 6 years ago. And it will happen again.

I admit that I am looking forward to watching the E46s play the E36 owner's role this time around after having been in the other role for the past 6 years.

And now that my car is two generations removed from new, I can finally be lumped in with the E30/E21/2002 owners.

[Alex Baumann]

The Coupe will be around for another year or so.

But from the E21 and 2002 group, your car is miles away.

Other than that, I agree.

[vehigal]

As expected, the E90 has improved on the E46's driving dynamics. Unless the car is forbiddingly ugly, it will have the same success as the E46.

[JST]

- Camp 1 - The group that automatically assumes the E90 will be better than the E46 in every measurable way and looks forward to buying theirs.

- Camp 2 - Mostly E46 owners - Criticising the E90 for it's looks, bloat, etc and suggesting that the E46 was the pinnacle of 3-series design.

Of course, we've been down this road before.

Camp 1 will continue to be seen by camp 2 as vain badge buyers who have to have the latest thing even if it sucks. Camp 2 will be seen by camp 1 as jealous owners of a vehicle that is no longer the latest and greatest.

Meanwhile, posts regarding the E90 will focus on the new-car angle (ordering, waiting, option and color choices) while posts for the E46 will shift to maintenance/repair issues. This alone may motivate some members of camp 2 to buy the E90 and jump over to camp 1.

Inevitably someone will refer to the change from an E46 to an E90 as an "upgrade" and a myriad of E46 loyalists will get offended. Still more will get offended at references to the E46 looking "dated".

Yet some E46 owners will happily hold on to their E46s because, to them, the car is what they want. They like it. And they see no reason to buy a new one just because a new one came out.

Of course, all of this happened 6 years ago. And it will happen again.

I admit that I am looking forward to watching the E46s play the E36 owner's role this time around after having been in the other role for the past 6 years.

And now that my car is two generations removed from new, I can finally be lumped in with the E30/E21/2002 owners.


Camp 3: Those who realize that, despite its flaws, the E90 has some significant improvements over the E46, isn't (as vehigal puts it) "forbiddingly ugly," and remains one of the best all-around four-doors available despite strong competition from other segments. And I-Drive and Active Steering aren't mandatory.

But, just as people bitched when the E36 and E46 were introduced, bemoaning the loss of the essential BMW-ness, I am sure that we will see the same thing happen again. It is kind of funny.

[markl53]

As expected, the E90 has improved on the E46's driving dynamics. Unless the car is forbiddingly ugly, it will have the same success as the E46.
Then, of course, individuals will have their own definition of "forbiddingly" :).

[TD]

As expected, the E90 has improved on the E46's driving dynamics. Unless the car is forbiddingly ugly, it will have the same success as the E46.
Let's not debate these topics in this thread (there are others already discussing the relative merits of each). But, since you bring it up, there is a lot more to "driving dynamics", IMO, than skidpad numbers or even 'Ring times. There's "feel". And just like "feel" was one of the key points of contention between the E36 and E46 camps, I expect it to once again arise in the discussions between E46 and E90 camps.

Having not driven an E90, I cannot say for sure where I stand on this. But if the E60 5-series is any indicator, I suspect the E46 to E90 comparison is going to be a lot like the E36 to E46 comparison.

[Technic]

Camp 3: Those who realize that, despite its flaws, the E90 has some significant improvements over the E46, isn't (as vehigal puts it) "forbiddingly ugly," and remains one of the best all-around four-doors available despite strong competition from other segments. And I-Drive and Active Steering aren't mandatory.

But, just as people bitched when the E36 and E46 were introduced, bemoaning the loss of the essential BMW-ness, I am sure that we will see the same thing happen again. It is kind of funny.

Agreed... :thumbup:

[TD]

Camp 3: Those who realize that, despite its flaws, the E90 has some significant improvements over the E46, isn't (as vehigal puts it) "forbiddingly ugly," and remains one of the best all-around four-doors available despite strong competition from other segments. And I-Drive and Active Steering aren't mandatory.

But, just as people bitched when the E36 and E46 were introduced, bemoaning the loss of the essential BMW-ness, I am sure that we will see the same thing happen again. It is kind of funny.

That last part is essentially my point. A "here we go again" of sorts. This time I'm not an owner of either. So I can just watch, amused.

EDIT- And your first part isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

[LarryN]

As expected, the E90 has improved on the E46's driving dynamics. Unless the car is forbiddingly ugly, it will have the same success as the E46.

I agree on the success part, but we'll have to wait and see on the "Improved driving dynamics". I have one on order, and I certainly hope it does.

Of the "main 3" the redesigned A4, new C-Class, and E90, I think it has a pretty good shot at being a very good seller.

I think TD is correct. This is the exact same discussion as was on Roadfly in 98 and 99. Haters, Baiters, Elaters, and Waiters. :D

[TD]

I agree on the success part, but we'll have to wait and see on the "Improved driving dynamics". I have one on order, and I certainly hope it does.

Of the "main 3" the redesigned A4, new C-Class, and E90, I think it has a pretty good shot at being a very good seller.

I think TD is correct. This is the exact same discussion as was on Roadfly in 98 and 99. Haters, Baiters, Elaters, and Waiters. :D
IIRC, you were in the same camp as me back then- very anti-E46 and very pro-E36. Granted I may be confusing you with someone else.

Then I went and bought an E46. What was I thinking?

[Alex Baumann]

The new 5 and 7 series have gotten worse in the driving dynamics department.

This statement is not correct, but we can discuss it in another thread not to hijack this one. Driving dynamic is not equally 'feel'. Everyone has a different definition of 'feel', driving dynamics, on the other hand, is on the paper and defined by numbers.

[LarryN]

IIRC, you were in the same camp as me back then- very anti-E46 and very pro-E36. Granted I may be confusing you with someone else.

Then I went and bought an E46. What was I thinking?

Probably not me. I was on the fence (a waiter), and traded in my e36 for a May '99 build 323i (last week of production for 99's).

I like my 02 330i now, and am off-lease in May, but extending for a month to do an ED 330i on May 27th. We were going over anyway, and it made total sense to get the e90, since I was going there anyway, I'm going off lease then, and I save 2.5 weeks of rental car fees... Now I just hope it's not a crappy handling car, as I'm an avid autocrosser, and do pretty well with the CCA club every year. (and the look is kinda growing on me.. (though it did take some getting used to).

There were lots of people who hated the e46 back then.

[TD]

We're all allowed one terrible mistake. I made mine with the MINI last summer.

BTW, did you get one of the 330's with the lightened steering?
Yes.

Then it was one of the first to get the steering retrofit, which was significantly heavier but still completely lacked any feel.

[Mr. The Edge]

Haters, Baiters, Elaters, and Waiters. :D

:rofl:

[jetstream23]

How do we know that? The new 5 and 7 series have gotten worse in the driving dynamics department. What's to say that the 3 series will be any different?

And BMW has confirmed that the 7-series is now getting a facelift, bascially acknowledging that the direction they've been heading over the past couple of years with the 7 and 5 may not be correct.

[Mr. The Edge]

How do we know that? The new 5 and 7 series have gotten worse in the driving dynamics department. What's to say that the 3 series will be any different?
how much seat time have you spent in an E38 and and E65, and an E39 and an E60?

[Mr. The Edge]

And BMW has confirmed that the 7-series is now getting a facelift, bascially acknowledging that the direction they've been heading over the past couple of years with the 7 and 5 may not be correct.
:confused:

facelifts are completely common these days to refresh the model after 3-4 years

[hecklerz]

- Camp 1 - The group that automatically assumes the E90 will be better than the E46 in every measurable way and looks forward to buying theirs.

- Camp 2 - Mostly E46 owners - Criticising the E90 for it's looks, bloat, etc and suggesting that the E46 was the pinnacle of 3-series design.

Of course, we've been down this road before.

Camp 1 will continue to be seen by camp 2 as vain badge buyers who have to have the latest thing even if it sucks. Camp 2 will be seen by camp 1 as jealous owners of a vehicle that is no longer the latest and greatest.

Meanwhile, posts regarding the E90 will focus on the new-car angle (ordering, waiting, option and color choices) while posts for the E46 will shift to maintenance/repair issues. This alone may motivate some members of camp 2 to buy the E90 and jump over to camp 1.

Inevitably someone will refer to the change from an E46 to an E90 as an "upgrade" and a myriad of E46 loyalists will get offended. Still more will get offended at references to the E46 looking "dated".

Yet some E46 owners will happily hold on to their E46s because, to them, the car is what they want. They like it. And they see no reason to buy a new one just because a new one came out.

Of course, all of this happened 6 years ago. And it will happen again.

I admit that I am looking forward to watching the E46s play the E36 owner's role this time around after having been in the other role for the past 6 years.

And now that my car is two generations removed from new, I can finally be lumped in with the E30/E21/2002 owners.


Same sort of arguments that are made everytime a major update to a computer OS is released :rofl: (Any Mac OS 9x users here still resisting OS X? :D )

[Alex Baumann]

:confused:

facelifts are completely common these days to refresh the model after 3-4 years

Close your eyes, take a deep breath and count till 10.



:D

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

how much seat time have you spent in an E38 and and E65, and an E39 and an E60?
Anyone who thinks the E65 is a worse drive than the E38 is an idiot. Plain and simple.
The E60 Sport (the non-sport IS a step backwards) is also a substantial step forward, but not the quantum leap the E65 is.

[CoasterLonghorn]

And BMW has confirmed that the 7-series is now getting a facelift, bascially acknowledging that the direction they've been heading over the past couple of years with the 7 and 5 may not be correct.

Guess that makes the E46 a design disaster as well, since they issed a facelift for that...and the E39....

[Mathew]

And BMW has confirmed that the 7-series is now getting a facelift, bascially acknowledging that the direction they've been heading over the past couple of years with the 7 and 5 may not be correct.
You do know the E46 got a facelift, right?

[Jim H]

Yet some E46 owners will happily hold on to their E46s because, to them, the car is what they want. They like it. And they see no reason to buy a new one just because a new one came out.
This would be me. I'm happy to have my e46, and really love this car. The e90 might turn out to be better, might not. I don't really care right now. Next time I'm thinking about a new car, I'll start caring. :)

By the way, I'd like to add that I think the e36 is a great car, as is the e30, as is... My point being that when a new generation is released, it doesn't say anything one way or the other about the older model. They each have their merits.

[NewBmwGuy]

- Camp 1 - The group that automatically assumes the E90 will be better than the E46 in every measurable way and looks forward to buying theirs.

- Camp 2 - Mostly E46 owners - Criticising the E90 for it's looks, bloat, etc and suggesting that the E46 was the pinnacle of 3-series design.

Of course, we've been down this road before.

Camp 1 will continue to be seen by camp 2 as vain badge buyers who have to have the latest thing even if it sucks. Camp 2 will be seen by camp 1 as jealous owners of a vehicle that is no longer the latest and greatest.

Meanwhile, posts regarding the E90 will focus on the new-car angle (ordering, waiting, option and color choices) while posts for the E46 will shift to maintenance/repair issues. This alone may motivate some members of camp 2 to buy the E90 and jump over to camp 1.

Inevitably someone will refer to the change from an E46 to an E90 as an "upgrade" and a myriad of E46 loyalists will get offended. Still more will get offended at references to the E46 looking "dated".

Yet some E46 owners will happily hold on to their E46s because, to them, the car is what they want. They like it. And they see no reason to buy a new one just because a new one came out.

Of course, all of this happened 6 years ago. And it will happen again.

I admit that I am looking forward to watching the E46s play the E36 owner's role this time around after having been in the other role for the past 6 years.

And now that my car is two generations removed from new, I can finally be lumped in with the E30/E21/2002 owners.

Well, I won't be playing that game. I love my E46, and I look forward to checking out the E90. But I don't see myself getting out of my E46 and into an E90 anytime soon. I do prefer the look of my E46 over the E90, but tastes change over time, so we'll see. Right now I am really happy with my ride. I am sure owners of the E90 will be happy with their ride. That is the way it should be. Listen to Rodney King when he speaks? Can't we just all get along?

[JST]

That last part is essentially my point. A "here we go again" of sorts. This time I'm not an owner of either. So I can just watch, amused.

EDIT- And your first part isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.


Exactly. I'm not ready to give the car a ringing endorsement--I think that there are some areas of clear improvement, and some areas where they've taken a step back (e.g., the interior). At the same time, I've been thinking since I saw the E65 and E60 that the E90 would be out of the question ugly, and since it isn't, I am pleasantly surprised.

Not pleasantly enough surprised to have put in an order.

Yet.

[teamdfl]

Camp 4 - E60, E65, and E90 owners who are sick of the constant software problems and sensor failures in their cars drive up the market value of OBD1 '95 M3s as they buy up the last BMW worth keeping beyond the 50k mile warranty.

[fso_BamBam]

Of course, all of this happened 6 years ago. And it will happen again.

I admit that I am looking forward to watching the E46s play the E36 owner's role this time around after having been in the other role for the past 6 years.


Did this happen really? How do we know? Was the board around 6 years ago? Everything I read here and roadfly suggests that people didn't have to wait for the e46 to "grow" on them. It was a hit right of the bat. The people who complained were in the minority, compared to those we have today.

Speaking for myself, I was just out of college in '99 and could only dream of affording a BMW. I'd drool everytime I saw one. And when I saw the pictures of the new E46, and started seeing them on the road, there was no question that's the car I wanted, and I got it 4 years later.

When I saw first pics of the E90, (and E60 before that), I just thought, "ugh!". Whenever I see a new 5er, it does nothing for me. But when I see a E39 540i, "one of the last good ones", now there's a great car. :thumbup:

Same thing will happen once the E90s start filling the streets.

[TD]

Did this happen really? How do we know? Was the board around 6 years ago? Everything I read here and roadfly suggests that people didn't have to wait for the e46 to "grow" on them. It was a hit right of the bat. The people who complained were in the minority, compared to those we have today.

Speaking for myself, I was just out of college in '99 and could only dream of affording a BMW. I'd drool everytime I saw one. And when I saw the pictures of the new E46, and started seeing them on the road, there was no question that's the car I wanted, and I got it 4 years later.

When I saw first pics of the E90, (and E60 before that), I just thought, "ugh!". Whenever I see a new 5er, it does nothing for me. But when I see a E39 540i, "one of the last good ones", now there's a great car. :thumbup:

Same thing will happen once the E90s start filling the streets.
I was there at Roadfly. And trust me. It was pretty heated at times.

And, honestly, I HATED the E46 when it first came out. "Bloated, feminine-looking, isolated Japanese car" was the general theme of the purists who thought the E46 sucked.

And, yes, I've been around these boards THAT long.

[JST]

Did this happen really? How do we know? Was the board around 6 years ago? Everything I read here and roadfly suggests that people didn't have to wait for the e46 to "grow" on them. It was a hit right of the bat. The people who complained were in the minority, compared to those we have today.

Speaking for myself, I was just out of college in '99 and could only dream of affording a BMW. I'd drool everytime I saw one. And when I saw the pictures of the new E46, and started seeing them on the road, there was no question that's the car I wanted, and I got it 4 years later.

When I saw first pics of the E90, (and E60 before that), I just thought, "ugh!". Whenever I see a new 5er, it does nothing for me. But when I see a E39 540i, "one of the last good ones", now there's a great car. :thumbup:

Same thing will happen once the E90s start filling the streets.

Yes, the Internet existed 6 years ago. Most of the debates then were on toadfly. I remember the introduction of the E46 pretty well. TD's description of the firestorm the E46 caused is accurate, and while most of the criticisms had to do with driving dynamics rather than styling, more than one person accused the E46 of looking like a Honda Civic.

[blueguydotcom]

As expected, the E90 has improved on the E46's driving dynamics. Unless the car is forbiddingly ugly, it will have the same success as the E46.

I don't really believe the success of the 3 series had much to do with driving dynamics. Call me a blasphemer but the majority of 3 drivers I know couldn't tell you if the car was fwd or awd. To most in southern california it's bought for the name...what the car can do is as much a mystery as the engine type to them.

just my opinion. that said, the new 3 will be more successful as more badge hounds will get it because it'll have greater interior space (a big complaint from the tubby american masses about the e46's interior).

[Rob325_in_AZ]

TD, I don't see it quite as black and white as the purists who don't like it vs. those who think it's wonderful in every way.

I think the camp that likes it could be generally summed up as 'cautiously optimistic' rather than fully endorsing.

Most of them think the exterior is decent (especially given the fears over how bad it could have been). Nobody that I've seen likes the interior much, even those that overall like the car.

I do think you're right about parallels between the pro-e36/anti-e46 crowd 6-7 years ago and today's pro-e46/anti-e90 crowd of today.

Out of curiosity, has your view of the e46 improved any over its lifespan, has it grown on you any?

That's the argument of the pro-e90 group, that it will grow on you over time, change is inevitable, etc.

[Mathew]

I don't really believe the success of the 3 series had much to do with driving dynamics. Call me a blasphemer but the majority of 3 drivers I know couldn't tell you if the car was fwd or awd. To most in southern california it's bought for the name...what the car can do is as much a mystery as the engine type to them.

I think it's true in a lot of places. And this is now who BMW markets for.

[BlackChrome]

I don't really believe the success of the 3 series had much to do with driving dynamics. Call me a blasphemer but the majority of 3 drivers I know couldn't tell you if the car was fwd or awd. To most in southern california it's bought for the name...what the car can do is as much a mystery as the engine type to them.

just my opinion. that said, the new 3 will be more successful as more badge hounds will get it because it'll have greater interior space (a big complaint from the tubby american masses about the e46's interior).
100% agree! :D

[Jalli]

I don't really believe the success of the 3 series had much to do with driving dynamics. Call me a blasphemer but the majority of 3 drivers I know couldn't tell you if the car was fwd or awd. To most in southern california it's bought for the name...what the car can do is as much a mystery as the engine type to them.

just my opinion. that said, the new 3 will be more successful as more badge hounds will get it because it'll have greater interior space (a big complaint from the tubby american masses about the e46's interior).

You generalize too much .. " the tubby american masses... "how about the "ugly ass limeys.."
Generalizations help no one... yes we do have an obestiy problem, but lets not start saying everyone is fat.

[adc]

more than one person accused the E46 of looking like a Honda Civic.

Well we've taken a big step down, nowadays we compare them with Pontiacs...
Sorry, I couldn't resist. :p

If the E90 does not commit any blunders handling-wise, and if BMW brings a turbo 330 stick over here, or if they keep the M3 under $50k (also stick), I might be very tempted regardless of the looks.

All other cars that look and drive better will cost $70k or over anyway, so what's the alternative? :dunno:

What camp does this put me in? Waiters? :rofl:

adc
03 330 ZHP

[Fast Bob]

As expected, the E90 has improved on the E46's driving dynamics. Unless the car is forbiddingly ugly, it will have the same success as the E46.

"Forbiddingly Ugly"......yeaahhhh, *that`s* the ticket.....or, we could just condense the term down to "Fugly"....

Regards,
Bob

[Artslinger]

Not sure what camp I fall into.

1. I like my e46 but I don't think the car is reliable enough to keep long term.
2. I am willing to give the e90 a chance without totally dismissing it as a future car purchase.
3. I really want a mint e30 but it would be a crime do drive the car in the harsh Midwest winters.

[Scotes]

Yes, the Internet existed 6 years ago. Most of the debates then were on toadfly.... FWIW I don't know if using a board from 6 years ago is a real reliable indicator as I think more of people online at that time would be a bit more serious and hardcore in their opinions and in searching out a BMW board where as today it seems rare to run into someone who's not online sharing their opinion.

That said I didn't not like the e36 but loved the look of the e46 when it came out; and I can't say I care much for the e90.

[TD]

Out of curiosity, has your view of the e46 improved any over its lifespan, has it grown on you any?


Well, my view of the E46 has sort of gone full-circle.

I hated it, then I liked it enough to buy one, then Isoon grew to hate it enough to take a hit dumping it for a used E36. Since then, I've tempered my dislike as the cars have improved through the model run (although I still think it is way too isolated and the throttle response still sucks).

The full story is long and lot more nuanced. I started to go there, but you didn't ask all of that, so I deleted it.

[jetstream23]

...more than one person accused the E46 of looking like a Honda Civic.

Funny because we actually did see an E90 on the road the other day and my wife said, "wow...I really like those Acura TL's" :rofl:

On a serious note, I'm getting one of the last E46 330i's. I like the look and the fact that the bugs have been worked out, the car has had a "facelift" and it performs pretty well. Like the E39 vs. E60, I think I'll be happy that I did so. It will take a few years but I'm sure the E90 will eventually grow on me and by that time, I'll be ready to trade-in the E46.

[icemanjs4]

OK, well I think I'm in a new camp. I love the existing E46. The E90 hasn't impressed me yet, though it might be nice. Anyway I just ordered a brand new E46 to make sure I could get a hold of a custom ordered E46 before they go away. I plan to drive it for a long time as it's an amazing car, regardles off what else is out there. all new cars could have diamonds in the steering wheels, it wouldn't make my new car any worse of a driver. And the E46 will always be classic BMW to my generation.

[icemanjs4]

I think the biggest beef about the E90 is that people are waiting for it to "Grow on them". When the new Acura TL came out, regardless of whether or not you liked the car (FWD.. blah blah - torque steer -blah blah), almost everyone instantaneously liked the interior. It's got a very fresh, sleek, modern, tasteful interior, that looks inviting. The new E90 in contrast is quite controversial, in that it's very basic, minimalist, and bare looking, and seems to lack some of the inviting curves of the E46 (and the E46 interior is relatively minimalist compared to other cars).

It's the same for the exterior styling. While the TL may not have been a dream car, most people agreed that it was better than it's predecesser, while having a sophisticated yet aggressive look. I'm yet to hear anyone say the same about the new 3er.


And what the heck is with those little eyelids on the kidney grills?!?!?! hehehehe

[johnf]

FWIW I don't know if using a board from 6 years ago is a real reliable indicator as I think more of people online at that time would be a bit more serious and hardcore in their opinions and in searching out a BMW board where as today it seems rare to run into someone who's not online sharing their opinion.Back in the days before the web and web browsers, when people periodically dialed in and passed on other people's mail, everyone used and understood the term WOB. The discussion was much more serious and hardcore back then. I recall joining the BMW mailing list in 1993 (which made me a latercomer) and immediately having my mailbox flooded with messages. Not from spammers, mind you – such leeches and parasites came later – but from dyed-in-wool enthusiasts intelligently discussing the merits and drawbacks of having or not having ABS on their cars. It was rather overwhelming to a BMW newbie in a pleasant sort of way.

[Stuka]

Yes.

Then it was one of the first to get the steering retrofit, which was significantly heavier but still completely lacked any feel.

When my lease for the 98 M3 was up, and E46 M3 was still a ways off, I was desparate for a car, and decided that I should look at E46 regular coupes.

I took the car out for less than a mile and headed straight back to the dealership. That lightened steering wheel was just horrendously un-BMW that I was so disgusted with it that I lost any interest in the car and the test drive. :mad:

Interestingly enough, my E30, which has way heaver steering than the E36 and E46, is lighter than the Turbo, even with PSM off.

Lastly, I saw the E90 in person, and I have to say, not bad. :thumbup: The coupe looks to be very promising, given the general outline of the sedan. And I am sure that the M3 will look even better. Now, if they can just drop that same V10 in it and keep the weight to 3200 pounds...

[andy_thomas]

But, just as people bitched when the E36 and E46 were introduced, bemoaning the loss of the essential BMW-ness, I am sure that we will see the same thing happen again. It is kind of funny.
A few folks have commented on GB boards and in the press that aside from the indiscrimate adoption of questionably useful technical gizmos, this is at least as much of a BMW as the outgoing E46. BMW played reasonably safe with this one, and I expect the IMHO slightly fussy detailing to be fixed in the inevitable face/arse-lift IDC. The real concentration on making the car handle and go/stop better than the competition is definitely BMW; even the overbearing technology has plenty of precendents (the E46 introduced plenty). In fact even the cramped rear has "BMW" written all over it, too, if you go back far enough :).

Audi-esque front and limp rear end apart, I quite like it.

[Spiderm0n]

The auto press loved the e46. Based on that praise and e46 owners' own happiness with their cars, it made the e46 bashers look a bit silly in many people's eyes.

I think it might be a bit different this time. Based on the less than stellar and negative reviews for the new 5 and 7, I imagine the e90 might suffer a similar fate with the automotive press. In that case it may end up being the e90 supporters who look silly...

[swchang]

I'm in the "I have to see it in person and take a test drive before making any real decisions one way or the other about the E90" camp.

I like almost everything about the E46 except that my friend's 1994 Honda Accord has better driving/steering feel. My car, I'm sure, handles and actually drives a lot better (i.e. better driving dynamics), but I have to agree with the naysayers that the feel of the car is a bit damped compared to some cars of the past. Compared to most other contemporary cars, well, the BMW wins.

[Scotes]

The auto press loved the e46....I think it might be a bit different this time. Based on the less than stellar and negative reviews for the new 5 and 7, I imagine the e90 might suffer a similar fate with the automotive press... Good point. I don't remember reading much, if anything, negative about the e46 when it was introduced.

[HW]

I like almost everything about the E46 except that my friend's 1994 Honda Accord has better driving/steering feel. .
that's funny because i felt that my old g2 integra had a better sitting position and steering feel. i also felt that the steering felt better in my gf's sister's is300.

[TD]

Good point. I don't remember reading much, if anything, negative about the e46 when it was introduced.
http://www.bmwcca.org/Roundel/1999/0499fea.htm

[bmw325]

I guess i'm in the ambivalent camp. There are some things I like about hthe e90, but I cant stand the interior. I'm not an e46 die-hard, and I really don't care if anyone criticizes it-- it certainly has its faults. Right now, its my "can't find of anything better for an all-around car" car. Unfortunatley, I don't think the e90 will address any of the "real" issues. Basically, it'll corner a little flatter, and have a smidge more interior room and slightly better electronic features. But, BMW dealers will still be jerks, the car will still have systemic issues that will go unfixed, and the price will go up. It'll have some cool features that will tempt my inner (or outer) geek, but will leave me scratching my head as to why BMW continues to refuse to incorporate features that other manufacturers have managed to have for a long time. Then again, there are no compelling competitors. So, I'm currenlty in the "If I have no car that I aspire to" camp. As a collection, there might be a few that I'd like, but for my 1 car I'm truly at a loss.

[JPinTO]

I just wonder if BMW will give some high powered 3er sedans this time around. It's sad that you can get an asskicking motor from Audi or Cadillac's "small" sedans.

258hp... whoopdeedoo.

[JST]

I just wonder if BMW will give some high powered 3er sedans this time around. It's sad that you can get an asskicking motor from Audi or Cadillac's "small" sedans.

258hp... whoopdeedoo.


The fallacy of peak numbers again.

The E46 330i, even at its end of life, remained one of the fastest accelerating cars in its class, and it had some of the most usable power out there. Despite the paper advantage possessed by the G35 and the TL, neither of these cars outclassed the "lowly" 225 hp 330 from a performance standpoint.

I suspect that the 258 hp 330 will have a similar character.

[Rob325_in_AZ]

The fallacy of peak numbers again.

The E46 330i, even at its end of life, remained one of the fastest accelerating cars in its class, and it had some of the most usable power out there. Despite the paper advantage possessed by the G35 and the TL, neither of these cars outclassed the "lowly" 225 hp 330 from a performance standpoint.

I suspect that the 258 hp 330 will have a similar character.

:stupid:
Exactly. The bulk of the HP wars going on in today's market have more to do with marketing than actual performance. It's basically so Joe-blow consumer can stand in his driveway talking to his neighbor about how many horses he has under the hood. Whether or not those numbers translate into performance, acceleration, etc, is irrelevant.

I sometimes myself wish I would have bought the 330 instead of the 325, but then I think when do I ever really need more than I have for every day driving? I don't (not for an addition $4-grand anyway ;) ). I know my car accelerates as well as many cars with 200+ HP.

[Stuka]

What would you need with all that displacement? :p

5 liter for 507HP sound better to me than 10 giga liter for 500HP. :flipoff: :p

[vehigal]

I decided what camp I am in. The camp that will decamp if the E90 does not drive (I'm talking "feel") at least as well as the E46. It won't matter if the E90 looks good or not.

Here's a pshop of the E90 with a ZHP spoiler. Hopefully, BMW won't let us down as to driving enjoyment.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/photos/data/2/16407e90zhpspoiler_e46zhp.jpg

[psychrunner]

I think the biggest beef about the E90 is that people are waiting for it to "Grow on them". When the new Acura TL came out, regardless of whether or not you liked the car (FWD.. blah blah - torque steer -blah blah), almost everyone instantaneously liked the interior. It's got a very fresh, sleek, modern, tasteful interior, that looks inviting. The new E90 in contrast is quite controversial, in that it's very basic, minimalist, and bare looking, and seems to lack some of the inviting curves of the E46 (and the E46 interior is relatively minimalist compared to other cars).

It's the same for the exterior styling. While the TL may not have been a dream car, most people agreed that it was better than it's predecesser, while having a sophisticated yet aggressive look. I'm yet to hear anyone say the same about the new 3er.


And what the heck is with those little eyelids on the kidney grills?!?!?! hehehehe

I am fully expecting the E90 to be better than the E46 AND I see it having a more sophisticated yet aggressive look. I don't understand some folks gripes. It is a REDESIGN. Were we expecting it to look almost the same as the E46? That would be a perposterous expectation, no?

[psychrunner]

I decided what camp I am in. The camp that will decamp if the E90 does not drive (I'm talking "feel") at least as well as the E46. It won't matter if the E90 looks good or not.

Here's a pshop of the E90 with a ZHP spoiler. Hopefully, BMW won't let us down as to driving enjoyment.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/photos/data/2/16407e90zhpspoiler_e46zhp.jpg

As my seventeen year old son might say ..."sweet"!!

[AF]

There is no answer to this ... there are so many different cars with so many things to offer ... I happen to love learning new things about cars. I find it exciting to drive a car, learn the new things it has to offer, master them and then go on and find a new car to learn about and start all over again.


The E90 will be a winner from the sounds of the few reveiws I read about it. It is naturally for some people to feel devoted to their E46 which is an excellent car and it is normal for others to understand that when they replace thier E36 that the only type of car that will be able to replace it would be a 911, Lotus elise, rx8, Boxster, etc because these cars still have the raw feeling they enjoy in a car that you will not find on a new bmw, audi or Mercedes.

Personally I like both so having one of each gives you the best of both worlds... some days you want that raw feel and other days you want a powerful, great handling car with excellent feedback but very refined at the same time.

[pharding]

How do we know that? The new 5 and 7 series have gotten worse in the driving dynamics department. What's to say that the 3 series will be any different?

What a bunch of nonsense. The e90 is clearly better handling than its predessor. I know. I had both.

[gojira-san]

What a bunch of nonsense. The e90 is clearly better handling than its predessor. I know. I had both.I think you're talking about E39 to E60. Unless you road test for a magazine or BMW, you haven't driven an E90 yet. ;) Whether or not the E90 driving dynamic is better will be an argument here when we can all start driving them.

[blueguydotcom]

I am fully expecting the E90 to be better than the E46 AND I see it having a more sophisticated yet aggressive look. I don't understand some folks gripes. It is a REDESIGN. Were we expecting it to look almost the same as the E46? That would be a perposterous expectation, no?


Some of us hoped BMW wouldn't make the darned car bigger! The last thing the e46 needed was another few inches and a few hundred more pounds. supposedly the new 3.0 is lighter than the one pushing around our 330i's. if that's so, why not use more aluminum on a nearly identically sized chassis and that new engine...boom, you've now dropped 300-400 lbs off an already bloated car.

A sub-3000 lbs car with that new engine (or even better a turbo version with over 300 hp) would have handled better and been fleeter of foot. but alas, BMW's aiming for a different crowd with each redesign - softer, larger and less agile seems to be the order of the day with bmw now.

[blueguydotcom]

I decided what camp I am in. The camp that will decamp if the E90 does not drive (I'm talking "feel") at least as well as the E46. It won't matter if the E90 looks good or not.

Here's a pshop of the E90 with a ZHP spoiler. Hopefully, BMW won't let us down as to driving enjoyment.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/photos/data/2/16407e90zhpspoiler_e46zhp.jpg


Hey it sure looks better with that airdam! i will drive the e90, no doubt and if it's more fun than my e46, I'll sing its praises.

[Roadhawk]

Some of us hoped BMW wouldn't make the darned car bigger! The last thing the e46 needed was another few inches and a few hundred more pounds. supposedly the new 3.0 is lighter than the one pushing around our 330i's. if that's so, why not use more aluminum on a nearly identically sized chassis and that new engine...boom, you've now dropped 300-400 lbs off an already bloated car.

A sub-3000 lbs car with that new engine (or even better a turbo version with over 300 hp) would have handled better and been fleeter of foot. but alas, BMW's aiming for a different crowd with each redesign - softer, larger and less agile seems to be the order of the day with bmw now.

Yes - agree - you hit the nail on the head here.

I'm sure the e90 will be very nice however - but it is not the car for me. Besides I have recently purchased an e46 - am quite happy with it and plan to own it for sometime. I expect to get much driving pleasure out of it and have no plans to buy another car anytime soon. However if I were buying now - I'm not sure the e90 would do it for me.

[andy_thomas]

You generalize too much .. " the tubby american masses... "how about the "ugly ass limeys.."
Generalizations help no one... yes we do have an obestiy problem, but lets not start saying everyone is fat.
Indeed. Although here in Little Britain we do have an "Interior Vanity Mirror Delete" option, code 488.

:rofl:

[andy_thomas]

Some of us hoped BMW wouldn't make the darned car bigger! The last thing the e46 needed was another few inches and a few hundred more pounds. supposedly the new 3.0 is lighter than the one pushing around our 330i's. if that's so, why not use more aluminum on a nearly identically sized chassis and that new engine...boom, you've now dropped 300-400 lbs off an already bloated car.

I don't know which of the many threads discussing the E90's kerb weight you've read, but almost all of them have outlined the weight gain: zero, or negative (adjusted for spec).

A sub-3000 lbs car with that new engine (or even better a turbo version with over 300 hp) would have handled better and been fleeter of foot. but alas, BMW's aiming for a different crowd with each redesign - softer, larger and less agile seems to be the order of the day with bmw now.
The first road test I read reckoned it had sharper handling than the old car, and was more stable at the limit (something the E39 M5 was well-known for). Why? It's not really surprising - it has a wider track, longer wheelbase, and the same kerb weight of the old car. Even if BMW changed nothing in the suspension, it would be better. I don't really understand why this is so difficult to take in :dunno:.

[andy_thomas]

I just wonder if BMW will give some high powered 3er sedans this time around. It's sad that you can get an asskicking motor from Audi or Cadillac's "small" sedans.

Which Audi, exactly? the A4 3.2* has clearly inferior performance to the outgoing 330i. And if Cadillac could bring itself to export its cars to a few more places, perhaps BMW will consider it sufficient competition to influence its decisions.

* I know you will say "S4". To which I will say the E60 M5 - BMW's only four-door M car, and therefore the S4's natural competitor - is twice the car the S4 will ever be :).

[Artslinger]

The car is bigger but not heavier which along with suspension improvements should make for a better handling car, add an updated inline six and the E90 should be an improvement over the current car.

The unknown factor is until more people test drive the car and give feedback we will not know if the car has had too many rough edges smoothed out and if BMW has isolated the driver from the road and the actual driving of the car even more, which would make it less of a "drivers" car and somewhat bland to drive.

[JPinTO]

* I know you will say "S4". To which I will say the E60 M5 - BMW's only four-door M car, and therefore the S4's natural competitor - is twice the car the S4 will ever be :).

You're funny. You know exactly what I meant. The 575 Maranello is twice the car the M5 will ever be :p

[JPinTO]

Here's a pshop of the E90 with a ZHP spoiler. Hopefully, BMW won't let us down as to driving enjoyment.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/photos/data/2/16407e90zhpspoiler_e46zhp.jpg

That's absolutely hot looking. The E90 is very airy fairy, soft looking and needs some serious colours, wheels and skirting to masculinize (?) it. Of course, that comes from someone who cosmetically prefers a H2 to a beetle.

[JPinTO]

The fallacy of peak numbers again.

The E46 330i, even at its end of life, remained one of the fastest accelerating cars in its class, and it had some of the most usable power out there. Despite the paper advantage possessed by the G35 and the TL, neither of these cars outclassed the "lowly" 225 hp 330 from a performance standpoint.

I suspect that the 258 hp 330 will have a similar character.


Neither of those cars outclassed the 330... but both came damn close and outclassed the similarly priced and equipped 325's. BMW's mantra of ultimate driving machine is a joke now adays. "Ultimate" is a tough word to live up to and other than the M cars, the lineups quite pedestrian. The 3.0L is a great motor, but that should be the entry motor.

Disclaimer: My rants stem from driving the 2.5L for 4 years compared to the 3.2L for the last 2. The cars are completely different animals... one is "ultimate" the other ain't even close. Don't get me started on those *(#(@ 2.2L motors that I am humiliated to drive as a loaner... I'll take a Accord any day of the week over those "things".

[adc]

* I know you will say "S4". To which I will say the E60 M5 - BMW's only four-door M car, and therefore the S4's natural competitor - is twice the car the S4 will ever be :).

The E60 M5 is not available with a manual transmission. What a monumental blunder!!!

In a car with such big sporting intentions, it's not an oversight, it's a crime. I'd never own one even if I could afford it...

Let's hope the E90 M3 will not continue this trend.

adc
03 330 ZHP

[blueguydotcom]

I don't know which of the many threads discussing the E90's kerb weight you've read, but almost all of them have outlined the weight gain: zero, or negative (adjusted for spec).

At my dealership saturday they tried to sell me on the e90. Two of them said, it's only 200 lbs heavier than the outgoing 330i. Only?!

Maybe they're wrong. we'll see.

The first road test I read reckoned it had sharper handling than the old car, and was more stable at the limit (something the E39 M5 was well-known for).

Don't trust road tests. Hell, everyone I know claims BMWs have great trannies and drivetrains. I totally diagree...I think BMWs are on the wrong end of that equation with some of the worst trannies, both auto and manual, around.

Why? It's not really surprising - it has a wider track, longer wheelbase, and the same kerb weight of the old car. Even if BMW changed nothing in the suspension, it would be better. I don't really understand why this is so difficult to take in :dunno:.

Longer wheelebase does not equal better handling but softer ride. Part of the fun of say a miata is the short wheelbase and the go-cart like turning ability.

[andy_thomas]

At my dealership saturday they tried to sell me on the e90. Two of them said, it's only 200 lbs heavier than the outgoing 330i. Only?!

Maybe they're wrong. we'll see.

BMW AG quotes something like 20 kg more for the 320d, 15 kg more for the 330i, and the rest are about the same. Some of them are even lighter. 200 lb is quit a long way out - do these dealers know how much 1 kg is? :) I doubt BMW NA could have found 200 lb's worth of options to standardise on the 330i.

Don't trust road tests. Hell, everyone I know claims BMWs have great trannies and drivetrains. I totally diagree...I think BMWs are on the wrong end of that equation with some of the worst trannies, both auto and manual, around.

Fair enough. (I don't think that much of BMW's manual transmission feel either.) I put the car's dimensions together with the wider track and width, the uprated rear suspension from the 1er, and come up with no reason to dispute the two road tests I've now read. I'm willing to bet every mag in the land will praise it from the off - which, IIRC, was not the case with the early E46.

Longer wheelebase does not equal better handling but softer ride.
Call me old-fashioned, but I thought suspension/wheel assembly tuning largely dictated the ride :). The ride of a 535d Sport on stiff springs and vast wheels is pretty poor, by most measures, much less comfortable than my short-arsed little 3er :dunno:.

[vehigal]

Some of us hoped BMW wouldn't make the darned car bigger! The last thing the e46 needed was another few inches and a few hundred more pounds. (...) but alas, BMW's aiming for a different crowd with each redesign - softer, larger and less agile seems to be the order of the day with bmw now.

Bigger = safer. Small/agile is over. :cry:

From a press release:

The safest 3 Series ever, particularly in side impacts

The new 3 Series is designed to achieve the best results in the very demanding EuroNCAP crash test. It is also one of the first cars in the world fully prepared for the demanding U.S. side impact standards, as well as the high-speed rear impact test.
-----

[vehigal]

Crash test info continued: Note the weight of the barrier, nearly identical to a 3-series

The test configuration resulting from this research is a 31 mph (50 km/h) perpendicular impact into the driver side of a passenger vehicle. The moving deformable barrier that strikes the test vehicle weighs 3,300 pounds (1,500 kg) and has a front end shaped to simulate the typical front end of a pickup or SUV. In each side-struck vehicle are two instrumented SID-IIs dummies representing a small (5th percentile) female or a 12-year-old adolescent. These dummies are positioned in the driver seat and the rear seat behind the driver.

This is the first U.S. consumer information test program to use a dummy that represents small females. There are two reasons for this choice. One is that data from serious real-world side impacts indicate that women are more likely than men to suffer serious head injuries. The other reason is that the head of the smaller SID-IIs driver dummy is in the window area where people's heads are more vulnerable to being struck by the front end of a striking vehicle in a real-world side impact.

The Institute's side impact test is severe. Given the designs of today's vehicles, it's unlikely that people in real-world crashes as severe as this test would emerge uninjured. But with good side impact protection, people should be able to survive crashes of this severity without serious injuries.

[·clyde·]

- Camp 1 - The group that automatically assumes the E90 will be better than the E46 in every measurable way and looks forward to buying theirs.

- Camp 2 - Mostly E46 owners - Criticising the E90 for it's looks, bloat, etc and suggesting that the E46 was the pinnacle of 3-series design.

Of course, we've been down this road before.

Camp 1 will continue to be seen by camp 2 as vain badge buyers who have to have the latest thing even if it sucks. Camp 2 will be seen by camp 1 as jealous owners of a vehicle that is no longer the latest and greatest.

Meanwhile, posts regarding the E90 will focus on the new-car angle (ordering, waiting, option and color choices) while posts for the E46 will shift to maintenance/repair issues. This alone may motivate some members of camp 2 to buy the E90 and jump over to camp 1.

Inevitably someone will refer to the change from an E46 to an E90 as an "upgrade" and a myriad of E46 loyalists will get offended. Still more will get offended at references to the E46 looking "dated".

Yet some E46 owners will happily hold on to their E46s because, to them, the car is what they want. They like it. And they see no reason to buy a new one just because a new one came out.

Of course, all of this happened 6 years ago. And it will happen again.

I admit that I am looking forward to watching the E46s play the E36 owner's role this time around after having been in the other role for the past 6 years.

And now that my car is two generations removed from new, I can finally be lumped in with the E30/E21/2002 owners.
TD, why did you post this on the "E90" board? :dunno: It's clearly a general 3 series topic, not really specific to the E90.












































:angel:

[johnf]

TD, why did you post this on the "E90" board? :dunno: It's clearly a general 3 series topic, not really specific to the E90.I think it belongs, as it wouldn't make much sense to me had he deleted the sentences and references to the E90. Isn't this also an ex post facto judgement? I thought there was only a single 3-series forum when TD posted.

:angel: I was going to add a joke about accepting a 3-series forum trinity but now the one divine model has become four rather than three.

[Alex Baumann]

I think it belongs, as it wouldn't make much sense to me had he deleted the sentences and references to the E90. Isn't this also an ex post facto judgement? I thought there was only a single 3-series forum when TD posted.

Are you saying that you know better than Clyde which post belongs to which forum ? ;) :p

[johnf]

No, I didn't move the post. :)

[·clyde·]

Are you saying that you know better than Clyde which post belongs to which forum ? ;) :p
:rofl:

[atlau]

And there was this one time..........

At band camp........









:p

[Chris90]

Longer wheelebase does not equal better handling but softer ride. Part of the fun of say a miata is the short wheelbase and the go-cart like turning ability.

Yeah, really. Is this a sports sedan or a stretch limo?

[Plaz]

I admit that I am looking forward to watching the E46s play the E36 owner's role this time around after having been in the other role for the past 6 years.

And now that my car is two generations removed from new, I can finally be lumped in with the E30/E21/2002 owners.

:eeps:

[gr8sho]

- Camp 1 - The group that automatically assumes the E90 will be better than the E46 in every measurable way and looks forward to buying theirs.

- Camp 2 - Mostly E46 owners - Criticising the E90 for it's looks, bloat, etc and suggesting that the E46 was the pinnacle of 3-series design.
Most of the discussion in this thread is about people that have owned BMW for years.

My first comment is that it is nice to be able to even have this "debate". If you look at american marques, no one has been in this game for any extended period of time. Case in point is Ford's Taurus SHO which lasted only 6 years and two generations (I won't even count the ill fated Gen III which did not include a manual transmission option) and then walked away from this segment. BMW has a true legacy here and should be commended for what it has achieved.

My second comment concerns the comparison between the E46 and E90 only in that I had a choice between the two when I bought my E90, but really needed the larger space in the rear passenger area for my kids. I also liked the bump in HP. This is my first BMW and I absolutely love the way it drives. I understand what all the fuss is about every time I drive it.

[BeeEmDoubleyoo]

They have a e90 camp in the summer now?!

[Patrick]

:eeps:

:rofl:

What color is he getting?


.

[Plaz]

:rofl:

What color is he getting?

Sapphire black/Terra leather/Walnut trim

SP, PP, heated seats, sat radio prep, metallic paint

:D

[Patrick]

Sapphire black/Terra leather/Walnut trim

SP, PP, heated seats, sat radio prep, metallic paint

:D

Sounds like a nice E90. :thumbup:

:rofl:


.

[Cliff]

Sapphire black/Terra leather/Walnut trim

SP, PP, heated seats, sat radio prep, metallic paint

:D

Does that mean he'll spend the next 6 months b!tching about it before trading it in on a used E46 330i ZHP?

[vexed]

Sounds like a nice E90. :thumbup:

:rofl:


.

No step?:eeps:


:angel: