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vpm
03-07-2005, 06:45 AM
F.Y.I - Decided to pay for an oil change at 2,500 on my 2005 X3, it was worth it, I am getting a much better - city average MPG... it went from about 15.7 to 16.7/8...

stevenw66
03-07-2005, 07:57 AM
F.Y.I - Decided to pay for an oil change at 2,500 on my 2005 X3, it was worth it, I am getting a much better - city average MPG... it went from about 15.7 to 16.7/8...

I was planning to wiat till 5K miles, seems reasonable for synthetic oil. Did you go through dealer or not? I've never heard of milage improving with oil change? :dunno:

weinschela
03-07-2005, 08:37 AM
F.Y.I - Decided to pay for an oil change at 2,500 on my 2005 X3, it was worth it, I am getting a much better - city average MPG... it went from about 15.7 to 16.7/8...

Highly unlikely that an oil change would improve mileage. If this were the case, the oil companies would be falling all over themselves promoting oil changes as a way to save money on gas. More likely explanations: change in tire inflation; change in climate; change in driving patterns. Probably not a long enough sample anyhow from which to draw any conclusions.

vpm
03-07-2005, 10:17 AM
I was planning to wiat till 5K miles, seems reasonable for synthetic oil. Did you go through dealer or not? I've never heard of milage improving with oil change? :dunno:
I did use my authorized BMW dealer... cost was about $75.00.

vpm
03-07-2005, 10:23 AM
Highly unlikely that an oil change would improve mileage. If this were the case, the oil companies would be falling all over themselves promoting oil changes as a way to save money on gas. More likely explanations: change in tire inflation; change in climate; change in driving patterns. Probably not a long enough sample anyhow from which to draw any conclusions.
I agree it seems very unlikely and might be due to some of the above, I still have a big problem in waiting for the 15,000 mile mark for an oil cahnge Irrelevant of the vehicle
Manufacturer or the type / grade of oil...

pipo
03-08-2005, 12:03 PM
Increase in mileage could also have to do with the fact that the engine is broken in, leading to lower frictional resistance of the engine's moving parts.

Regarding an oil change before the recommended service interval, it certainly can't hurt, except for the $ (and it might help), so I say go for it, especially it if it makes you feel better. The experts say that the high quality synthetics really do retain their functional qualities MUCH longer than conventional motor oils; it's just hard to get used to the idea of waiting so long between oil changes when the oft-repeated mantra (especially by oil change shops) is change your oil every three thousand.

Personally, I believe that other systems in the vehicle will fail long before the engine fails due to poor oil quality. I'm sticking to the recommended interval.

By the way, the oil change interval is not exactly 15,000 miles. It is determined by an onboard computer that records data from your vehicle's actual usage, such as number of cold starts, driving style, and mileage.

voltron1011
03-15-2005, 06:09 AM
I used to be a Blackhawk mechanic (that's a helicopter by the way) for over 8 years and we NEVER changed the oil in those 100,000 dollar gas-turbine engines. Reason: superior lubrication with synthetic oil and superior oil filtration. The only kind of service on these engines was to replace the filters at the 500 hour inspection. The technical manuals didn't even mention draining the oil at all.
I think if BMW has decided that 15000 miles is a good oil change interval, I would believe them. They certainly have a lot more engineering experience than I do. We have to lose this 3000 mile mentality.

JG
03-15-2005, 07:49 AM
I used to be a Blackhawk mechanic (that's a helicopter by the way) for over 8 years and we NEVER changed the oil in those 100,000 dollar gas-turbine engines. Reason: superior lubrication with synthetic oil and superior oil filtration. The only kind of service on these engines was to replace the filters at the 500 hour inspection. The technical manuals didn't even mention draining the oil at all.
I think if BMW has decided that 15000 miles is a good oil change interval, I would believe them. They certainly have a lot more engineering experience than I do. We have to lose this 3000 mile mentality.

A good friend of mine is the shop forman at the BMW dealer I bought my X3 from.

He had some interesting comments on this. He said he personally he would change around 7500 if you were hard on the driving, stoplight jack rabbit, lots of urban stop and go, dusty etc..

He did mention the synthetics are so good now the 15,000+/- interval is reasonable.

He also said oddly enough he would use regular or medium gas in winter climates such as in Canada, and not premium. I wil have to ask him why.

dkl
03-15-2005, 01:48 PM
I used to be a Blackhawk mechanic (that's a helicopter by the way) for over 8 years and we NEVER changed the oil in those 100,000 dollar gas-turbine engines. Reason: superior lubrication with synthetic oil and superior oil filtration. The only kind of service on these engines was to replace the filters at the 500 hour inspection. The technical manuals didn't even mention draining the oil at all.
I think if BMW has decided that 15000 miles is a good oil change interval, I would believe them. They certainly have a lot more engineering experience than I do. We have to lose this 3000 mile mentality.


Please note that the Blackhawk doesn't get cranked on/off half a dozen times a day nor does it get to fly only on 5 to 10 minutes short trips (with it's engines shut off in between trips, of course). It's the constant starting and short trips (oil not getting up to the proper operating temperature) that's contaminating the oil/filter. Also, I'm sure the Blackhawk holds alot more than just the 8 or 8.5 quarts of oil as it in the bimmers. I'm not too worried about the oil being able to withstand the 15000 miles interval as much as I'm worried about the oil filter able to withstand that length of time. Once the filter is clogged, oil will just get recycled through the bypass valve (no filtering/cleaning of the oil at all). Look at it this way, if you're changing at 7500 miles (1/2 the recommended interval), it's an extra $50 bucks to protect your $40,000+ investment plus that peace of mind.

pipo
03-16-2005, 01:06 PM
Please note that the Blackhawk doesn't get cranked on/off half a dozen times a day nor does it get to fly only on 5 to 10 minutes short trips (with it's engines shut off in between trips, of course). It's the constant starting and short trips (oil not getting up to the proper operating temperature) that's contaminating the oil/filter. Also, I'm sure the Blackhawk holds alot more than just the 8 or 8.5 quarts of oil as it in the bimmers. I'm not too worried about the oil being able to withstand the 15000 miles interval as much as I'm worried about the oil filter able to withstand that length of time. Once the filter is clogged, oil will just get recycled through the bypass valve (no filtering/cleaning of the oil at all). Look at it this way, if you're changing at 7500 miles (1/2 the recommended interval), it's an extra $50 bucks to protect your $40,000+ investment plus that peace of mind.

While you're right that the X3 might get cranked on/off half a dozen times a day and go on several five to ten minute trips daily with the engine shut down in between, the X3's computer will monitor that activity and set the oil change interval accordingly. As stated in a previous post, the interval is not exactly 15,000 miles; the computer monitors numerous factors and determines the correct interval for each vehicle based on actual usage. Based on my usage, as an example, the computer is telling me that my first oil change will be due at approximately 17,500 miles.

At the same time, I think you're absolutely right that if it gives the owner peace of mind to shorten the interval, he/she should do so. Personally, I trust that the BMW engineers know what they're doing and have not established oil change intervals that will lead to premature engine failure.

I also heard that the cost is more like $90 if you have the dealer do it...

fill007
03-16-2005, 03:42 PM
Mine is at 3500 miles. I checked prices from the dealer and one of those oil stop places. Dealer wanted $150, Pennzoil oil (sythetic option) change wanted $90. :yikes:

echelon153
03-16-2005, 04:01 PM
Mine is at 3500 miles. I checked prices from the dealer and one of those oil stop places. Dealer wanted $150, Pennzoil oil (sythetic option) change wanted $90. :yikes:

ouch! if you can, try to DIY. it'll cost you less :thumbup:

voltron1011
03-17-2005, 05:59 AM
Please note that the Blackhawk doesn't get cranked on/off half a dozen times a day nor does it get to fly only on 5 to 10 minutes short trips (with it's engines shut off in between trips, of course). It's the constant starting and short trips (oil not getting up to the proper operating temperature) that's contaminating the oil/filter. Also, I'm sure the Blackhawk holds alot more than just the 8 or 8.5 quarts of oil as it in the bimmers. I'm not too worried about the oil being able to withstand the 15000 miles interval as much as I'm worried about the oil filter able to withstand that length of time. Once the filter is clogged, oil will just get recycled through the bypass valve (no filtering/cleaning of the oil at all). Look at it this way, if you're changing at 7500 miles (1/2 the recommended interval), it's an extra $50 bucks to protect your $40,000+ investment plus that peace of mind.

Actually, flying for the Imigration Customs Enforcement a lot of our Hawks did get flown several times a day. This included 15 minute engine HIT (Health Indicator Test) tests, shutting down, make neccessary adjustments, doing a 30 minute hover, shutting down, making blade track and balance adjustments, doing a 20 minute flight, shutdown, adjustment, and so on. This would go on all day. These engines also put up with dust-off landings and takeoffs, extreme 120 degree operating climates (Tucson, AZ), and the normal daily 'hotdogging' by our self-proclaimed airshow pilots. As far as quantity of oil, each engine takes about 10 quarts (if memory serves).

The only difference between turbine engines and normal piston engines is the fact that the oil is exposed to piston blow-by. This is the reason that your oil gets discolored over time. It does not change the viscosity of the oil as much as it puts carbon into the oil.

dlflyboy
03-27-2005, 11:42 PM
I agree it seems very unlikely and might be due to some of the above, I still have a big problem in waiting for the 15,000 mile mark for an oil cahnge Irrelevant of the vehicle
Manufacturer or the type / grade of oil...



I will follow the maintenance plan. Saab also does this, but thier first oil change is at 20k. I just had mine changed at 19k on my 9-5 (it even popped up on the computer to have it done). I was very skeptical though. But, it's fine! :)

ScottLive5
03-28-2005, 08:58 AM
It seems that the company’s that include free maintenance (Jaguar et. al) require a much less frequent service interval.
Opposed to when we have to pay for it…hmm.

jk330i
03-29-2005, 10:10 AM
F.Y.I - Decided to pay for an oil change at 2,500 on my 2005 X3, it was worth it, I am getting a much better - city average MPG... it went from about 15.7 to 16.7/8...



You have sythetic oil, no need to change your oil at 2500 miles, even Hondas are changed at 3-4000 miles. I mean if you said you did the change at 5000 or 7500 that makes some sense, however, every 2500 is crazy. And it should have not made any difference to your avg mpg, I think you just drove with less gas on the pedal.

dherzfeld
03-29-2005, 04:11 PM
A co-worker of mine just came to her current job from a major oil company division that produces the lube oil additives. Her information on testing that she has seen indicates that the modern lubes are of such superior quality, that 10,000 mile oil change intervals are normal and OK. She said that the marketing campaigns from Jiffy Lube, et al, which call for 3000 mile oil changes are a crock of $*&^>

voltron1011
03-29-2005, 10:33 PM
F.Y.I - Decided to pay for an oil change at 2,500 on my 2005 X3, it was worth it, I am getting a much better - city average MPG... it went from about 15.7 to 16.7/8...

The only reason the car is getting better gas mileage (and will continue) is because the engine is loosening up and getting broken in. Most motors won't be fully broken in until at least 15000 miles.

kayaker
03-29-2005, 11:38 PM
Just had my 2004 325IT oil changed last month at 13500. I bought it as CPO with 11500 on it. I asked the SA about getting an oil change done at 7500 intervals. He said it is a waste of mone but go ahead if it "makes me feel good".

My wife drives a VW with convetional oil. I am used to oil change at 4000-5000 interval so I was really uneasy about changing oil at 13500. But I figure BMW had done its homework and know what it is talking about.

Does anyone have any hard evidence this 15000 (or in the neighborhood) miles per oil change schedule is actually harming the engine?

HGX3.0
03-30-2005, 08:28 AM
I plan on changing my oil regularly at 7500 miles. There's so much talk/debate over this topic. I think the bottom line is, you pay for the service at shorter intervals for the peace of mind ...

Also, I would think the filter life is the element that should be questioned. The oil may still be good, but the filter may be shot.

mtbscott
03-30-2005, 10:18 AM
By the way, the oil change interval is not exactly 15,000 miles. It is determined by an onboard computer that records data from your vehicle's actual usage, such as number of cold starts, driving style, and mileage.

Anecdotal evidence is that the service indicator simply measures how long it takes for 600 gallons of gas to pass through your engine. My experience on two BMW's seems to be pretty close to that.

adventurelarry
04-20-2005, 09:48 AM
A good friend of mine is the shop forman at the BMW dealer I bought my X3 from.
He also said oddly enough he would use regular or medium gas in winter climates such as in Canada, and not premium. I wil have to ask him why.

FWIW, I have never put anything other than regular in a BMW 850csi, Z3, or my X3 2.5. I have never had an issue.

I have been told at a dealership, off the record, that regular is fine, that BMW gets money from gas manufactures to require Premium. I do not have anything other than word of mouth to back that up though.

Rob V
04-20-2005, 09:58 AM
FWIW, I have never put anything other than regular in a BMW 850csi, Z3, or my X3 2.5. I have never had an issue.

I have been told at a dealership, off the record, that regular is fine, that BMW gets money from gas manufactures to require Premium. I do not have anything other than word of mouth to back that up though.

Don't you want that extra little kick that the premium gas provides? Maybe I'm wrong but I find that regular gas burns quicker (doesn't last as long) than premium and also makes the car just a little more sluggush. I aslo have a hard time believing that BMW would get a kick back from gas manufactures to state that premium is required without providing any hard evidence to back that up. I'm sure that would break more than a couple of laws. I wouldn't put it past anyone, especially in these days of coporate fraud, but I doubt BMW would risk their reputation by doing this. Especially with all the attention that oil has received in the past couple of years.

adventurelarry
04-20-2005, 10:05 AM
Don't you want that extra little kick that the premium gas provides? Maybe I'm wrong but I find that regular gas burns quicker (doesn't last as long) than premium and also makes the car just a little more sluggush. I aslo have a hard time believing that BMW would get a kick back from gas manufactures to state that premium is required. I'm sure that would break more than a couple of laws. I wouldn't put it past anyone, especially in these days of coporate fraud, but I doubt BMW would risk their reputation by doing this. Especially with all the attention that oil has received in the past couple of years.

I have never found the cars to be sluggish, at all. The 850 was quite the opposite :thumbup:

If I experenced knocking, etc. I would go to the next highest octane.

I do not see how being paid to say a particular octane is recommend would be illegal. As a consumer you have the ultimate say by picking what you want in the tank. Of course, I am not a lawyer.

Rob V
04-20-2005, 11:28 AM
Recommended Octane is of course not a problem. I was referring to the original post indicating that it was required. Just misinterpretation on my part, sorry about that.

rrinker
04-21-2005, 01:05 PM
I have never found the cars to be sluggish, at all. The 850 was quite the opposite :thumbup:

If I experenced knocking, etc. I would go to the next highest octane.

I do not see how being paid to say a particular octane is recommend would be illegal. As a consumer you have the ultimate say by picking what you want in the tank. Of course, I am not a lawyer.


See on a modern car you probably would NEVER get any knocking - the ECM would simply retard timing until it didn't knock - causing a power loss and increased fuel consumption.
I don't thinkt here's any conspiracy with the automakers to 'require' premium fuel - if you are goign to run a high performance, high compression engine, you simply NEED higher octane to prevent knocking (or rather, prevent the timing from being retarded which defeats the purpose of the high performance engine). If you want 'conspiracy' look at the idiotic use of oxygenated fuels. No vehicle with a feedback air/fuel control will get 'reduced emissions' from that junk. On the contrary, to maintain the same air/fuel ratio, MORE FUEL will be consumed! That's why people in places where they switch for the winter months experience widely varying mileage results. The government mandates reduced emissions, the gas companies come up with an additive that does this - for old cars! - and gets to charge more for the fuel because of the price of the additive, PLUS MOST people will use more fuel for the same amount of miles driven.

--Randy

acitydweller
05-01-2005, 04:02 AM
the reason why lower octane is recommended by some folks to be used in the winter is for all the reasons mentioned by the previous posters here. Lower octane fuel is easier to ignite and burn. The down side is it burns dirtier and quicker, less efficiently which may translate to lower fuel economy. The old age arguement could be said for city versus freeway/highway driving of course. Going back to the original comment, lower octane fuel would make starting up the car in the winter easier.

Other old school practices include using thiner viscosity oil in the winter, and thicker oil in the summers. The technology today may make these practices out of date now but some still follow this. My m3 has its 15k mile oil change interval. At nearly $10 a quart of 10w60, I am sure the synthetic oil used is of the highest quality by Castrol. i am currently at the 8900 mile mark now and look forward to my next oil change at 15k to see and feel a difference.

All the best
-al

avinator
06-16-2005, 08:30 PM
I am old school... Syn or non change your oil every 3k... :bigpimp:

7.5 k 10 K and 15 k seems a little too much...

Later :D

tromar1
06-17-2005, 08:39 AM
This was fascinating reading. From Blackhawk mechanics to soccer moms...I have always followed the service schedule simply because i'm not an engineering, and i'm hopeful that if BMW suggest 15K...then 15K it is.

It's not a matter of being old school and wanting to still abide by the 3 - 5k as required by a Honda, et. al. (pre 00) or a Model T. The engine and oil has been improved upon; thus, it simply isn't necessary to live in the 1920s regarding oil change. My dealership charges between $95 - $105 for an oil change. It stands to reason that they would want people coming more often so they could get more money on the service. So the requirement of 15K doesn't appear to be so far fetched.

I view it this way. When I was a child and got sick, my mom would give me 2 teaspoon of a particular medicine as prescribed by the doctor. Fast forward to the present, my illness has mutated and the pharmaceutical companies now make medicine that is stronger/better than was previously on the market. The directions now states: take 1 teaspoon. "But no!" ...some would say, "i'm not comfortable with the 1 teaspoon instructions because i'm so use to taking 2." Guess what, they'll keep taking the 2 because that's what they're use to doing, even though doctors told them otherwise, explaining that the human genome being mapped & DNA has allowed for better chemical formulation. They won't be comfortable with the advances in medical science. They'll change the horseshoe sooner than recommended by the blacksmith. Please forgive my simply analogy.

Suffice it to say, I was very interested in many comments posted, and learned a lot regarding what grade gas to use, etc. So, i'm conflicted in my need to believe that the gas grade doesn't matter. I would hope that adventurelarry and others could expound upon the need for high vs low grade gas, as i would like to downgrade to the cheapest gas if it won't hurt my car.

tnunnery
06-17-2005, 09:02 AM
Posted on another board: http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e83/6631827-1.html

Some quotes from the study:
1. "Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages."
2. "compulsive oil changers are actually causing more engine wear than the people who let their engine's oil get some age on it."
3. "we'd recommend 8,000 miles between oil changes on an engine that uses no oil at all, perhaps 10,000 miles on an engine that uses some oil, and 15,000 miles or beyond with a filter change every 5,000 miles."
4. "3,000-mile [oil change] intervals is a huge waste of resources"
5. "Topping up the crankcase is a critical component of extended oil change intervals, and frequent filter changes are most likely the key to extreme-length intervals. The cumulative effect of even minor top-ups, let alone a filter change, substantially increases the longevity of the oil."

More and more evidence is suggesting that the mythical "3000 oil-change" rule is no longer applicable - and may actually do more damage. There have been huge advances in oil and engine technology since this idea was seared into the mind of the public.

TVN

tromar1
06-17-2005, 12:11 PM
nuff said... The posted info seems very conclusive. Thanks. Now i wish someone with as much valuable info regarding the need for high grade versus low grade gas would enlighten me from my darkness.

adventurelarry
06-17-2005, 01:19 PM
I would hope that adventurelarry and others could expound upon the need for high vs low grade gas, as i would like to downgrade to the cheapest gas if it won't hurt my car.

I wish I could, however, as I have said on other threads I am kind of a knob with this stuff. I have been doing some more experimenting now that my X3 is approaching 10k miles. I have been using Shell 93 (and 2 tanks of Sunoco 91) for the past 3K miles. I appear to be getting almost 7% better mileage with the higher octane, which basically makes the cost difference negligable.

I have recently put my Yakima rack, with Kayak saddles on, and I am back down to an average of 20.1 mpg now.


--Larry

wmole
06-17-2005, 04:58 PM
Some good posts! I look at the premium fuel vs. regular fuel this way: You may save 10% per gallon using regular, but you will give it back when your engine management systems alters spark timing, resulting in 10 to 15% less power and fuel efficiency. In other words, you get less MPG with regular and end up paying the same cost per mile. Go with premium, have no guilt and have FUN! That is why you drive a beemer anyway, right?! :)

tromar1
06-17-2005, 08:03 PM
Thanks people...that's what i wanted to hear. 93 octane for me. However, I'll still follow the recommended schedule for the oil change.

Good going with the responses.

pipo
06-17-2005, 10:07 PM
I wish I could, however, as I have said on other threads I am kind of a knob with this stuff. I have been doing some more experimenting now that my X3 is approaching 10k miles. I have been using Shell 93 (and 2 tanks of Sunoco 91) for the past 3K miles. I appear to be getting almost 7% better mileage with the higher octane, which basically makes the cost difference negligable.

I have recently put my Yakima rack, with Kayak saddles on, and I am back down to an average of 20.1 mpg now.


--Larry

Hey, adventurelarry, after surviving the octane wars on another thread, you have now been anointed the octane guru! ;) I've seen the light and now use exclusively 91+ octane. :angel:

I'm picking up a used canoe tomorrow with my X3. No rack yet, just foam blocks and some rope for now. I'll let you know when we head up to NH so we can share that cup of coffee you talked about.