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boondawg
04-06-2005, 07:18 AM
Hi all, well i think i am going to buy a new 2005 BMW M3 either Carbon Black or the Metallic Silver, still unsure. i am in the military stationed overseas and won't have access to test drive one for a while, and have no salesperson to ask questions so i decided to ask you guys. here is what i am planning to get.
2005 bmw m3 silver or black (leaning towards silver so it's easier to keep clean)
performance package
trying to decide on the competition package - i am considering buying aftermarket wheels so this might not be worth it.
xenon headlights
no nav

1.besides wheels i think i may upgrade the audio system and am wondering what it is like without the nav. i am assumming you only get that screen i see in the pics when you order nav, is this correct? also, is the system without nav 1 din or 2?

2. if i upgrade the deck, will the steering wheel controls still work with an aftermarket deck?

3. i am trying to decide if i want the factory spoiler...i may eventually put an aftermarket spoiler and am wondering if most aftermarket spoilers use existing holes from the oem spoiler? is it better to go with the spoiler deletion option so you dont have to worry about holes?

4. is the competition package worth it, i know you lose the steering wheel cruise control, so does that mean you lose cruise control all together? did the put the control somwhere else? this doesn't matter so much, just wondering.

well i guess that's about it for now, that's all the ?'s i can think of, thanks in advance to all who respond.

BahnBaum
04-06-2005, 07:22 AM
Spoiler isn't mounted with any holes.

Alex

bren
04-06-2005, 08:33 AM
1 and 2, no idea.

3, what Alex said. OE spoiler uses double-sided tape.

4, depends on why you want it. Some people think $4k for blue paint is expensive, some don't.

TD330ci
04-06-2005, 10:20 AM
1 and 2, no idea.

3, what Alex said. OE spoiler uses double-sided tape.

4, depends on why you want it. Some people think $4k for blue paint is expensive, some don't.


:rofl: :rofl: Jesus Bren, you can stop your relentless campaign against the Comp pkg any day now. :dunno:

To me the style of the wheels are worth it alone. The IB paint is an extra bonus. :thumbup:

BahnBaum
04-06-2005, 10:32 AM
To me the style of the wheels are worth it alone.

That's pretty silly. Especially cause you can get 1K for the stock wheels on ebay, bringing the cost down to about $1000 for the fake CSL wheels.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=M3COMPWHEELS

Alex

e36M3r
04-06-2005, 10:46 AM
Ah...real CSL wheels on the rear (same part #). 1/2" less wide but similar quality to CSL wheels on the front. THEN you would have to pop for 19" tires also.... so 2K for the wheels, + at least $500.00 difference between selling the originals and buying 19" tires.

EVERYONE likes the idea of having the Euro rotors on there car. Why not get the REAL CSL brakes for the car, and the REAL CSL steering rack also...

All in all it's quite a good deal, IF you like/want the wheels. :beerchug:

That's pretty silly. Especially cause you can get 1K for the stock wheels on ebay, bringing the cost down to about $1000 for the fake CSL wheels.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=M3COMPWHEELS

Alex

TD330ci
04-06-2005, 10:52 AM
That's pretty silly. Especially cause you can get 1K for the stock wheels on ebay, bringing the cost down to about $1000 for the fake CSL wheels.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=M3COMPWHEELS

Alex

Again as Bren says to each there own. After opting for the extra $1800 for the standard 19's it only becomes a $2200 option, for the better brakes , the steering and the quote "special blue". Worth it for me. :thumbup:

Even if I did get 1K for the wheels, It's still an $1800 option. Losing $800 right there. :p

I was just commenting on the fact that I have seen Bren on MANY occasions bashing the Comp pkg. If people want to get it let them. You don't have to keep bagging on it relentlessly. Sounds like a ZHP relived story. :eek:

TD330ci
04-06-2005, 10:53 AM
Ah...real CSL wheels on the rear (same part #). 1/2" less wide but similar quality to CSL wheels on the front. THEN you would have to pop for 19" tires also.... so 2K for the wheels, + at least $500.00 difference between selling the originals and buying 19" tires.

EVERYONE likes the idea of having the Euro rotors on there car. Why not get the REAL CSL brakes for the car, and the REAL CSL steering rack also...

All in all it's quite a good deal, IF you like/want the wheels. :beerchug:

Cheers to that. :thumbup:

hugh1850
04-06-2005, 10:58 AM
Looks like this became a M3zhp thread. :p

BahnBaum
04-06-2005, 11:01 AM
After opting for the extra $1800 for the standard 19's it only becomes a $2200 option, for the better brakes , the steering and the quote "special blue". Worth it for me. :thumbup:

If you "opt" for the $1800 standard 19's, the comp package is still $4000. You then spend $5800 and don't get the comp wheels.

Alex

bren
04-06-2005, 11:20 AM
I was just commenting on the fact that I have seen Bren on MANY occasions bashing the Comp pkg. If people want to get it let them. You don't have to keep bagging on it relentlessly. Sounds like a ZHP relived story. :eek:
I never told the guy not to get it. :dunno:

To me, if the pkg. isn't compelling enough on it's own that you have to ask for input about the value says that it isn't worth it.

Aknatar
04-06-2005, 12:08 PM
Again as Bren says to each there own. After opting for the extra $1800 for the standard 19's it only becomes a $2200 option, for the better brakes , the steering and the quote "special blue". Worth it for me. :thumbup:

Even if I did get 1K for the wheels, It's still an $1800 option. Losing $800 right there. :p

I was just commenting on the fact that I have seen Bren on MANY occasions bashing the Comp pkg. If people want to get it let them. You don't have to keep bagging on it relentlessly. Sounds like a ZHP relived story. :eek:

yeah the but the non-comp wheels are forged so they might actually be worth additional cost when compared to the comp. wheels

Also the IB costs an additional 475 bucks, so its not as if they just throw in metallic paint with comp package. Still the wheels are sweet and the brakes look cool atleast.

TD330ci
04-06-2005, 12:23 PM
If you "opt" for the $1800 standard 19's, the comp package is still $4000. You then spend $5800 and don't get the comp wheels.

Alex

I meant as a stand alone option without the comp pkg, not including. :p

Pinecone
04-06-2005, 04:58 PM
1. Yeap, Nav only. NO idea what spec the head unit is, if any.

2. Nope unless the hed unit talks the appropriate BMW bus. The steering wheel controls put a code on the bus that must be read and acted upon.

3. Factory spoiler is double sided tape. SO get it, adn if you don't like it, you can take it off. If you don't get it, you will have to pay to get one and then pay to have it painted to match the car.

4. Yeap, no cruise control. Choice is yours alone. But personally it makes no sense to put the premium package on the car (moon roof) and Competition package.

dawgbone
04-06-2005, 06:58 PM
The way I see it, ZCP takes too much of the good away vs. the bad(heavy gadgets)..\

ZCP=
no steering wheel controls(BT, volume, Cruise)
NAV is a beautiful thing..
Cruise is a beautiful thing
IMO even uglier trim
smaller wheels

If you were to order a standard M
You can get everything except for the brakes, alcantra, and trim(at least from what I know of)
From the sounds of it all later 05's will have the same rack as ZCP
factory double spokes sell like hotcakes..I see countless e36 with them(EBAY)

To me, it's not worth it...I like to have all the goods..and from the looks of it and the way I foresee BMW going, especially with styling...E46 might be a highly sought after car in the future..meaning resell might be worthwhile...It might be a good idea to get it loaded..But then again ZCP might be a good selling point as well..as far as resell value goes...

it's your preference

Aknatar
04-06-2005, 09:51 PM
The way I see it, ZCP takes too much of the good away vs. the bad(heavy gadgets)..\

ZCP=
no steering wheel controls(BT, volume, Cruise)
NAV is a beautiful thing..
Cruise is a beautiful thing
IMO even uglier trim
smaller wheels

If you were to order a standard M
You can get everything except for the brakes, alcantra, and trim(at least from what I know of)
From the sounds of it all later 05's will have the same rack as ZCP
factory double spokes sell like hotcakes..I see countless e36 with them(EBAY)

To me, it's not worth it...I like to have all the goods..and from the looks of it and the way I foresee BMW going, especially with styling...E46 might be a highly sought after car in the future..meaning resell might be worthwhile...It might be a good idea to get it loaded..But then again ZCP might be a good selling point as well..as far as resell value goes...

it's your preference

I don't think the wheels are smaller than stock as they are 19." Also, the 05 M3s come with the ZCP suspension, not the steering rack as far as I know (which may not be very far at all).

TD330ci
04-07-2005, 06:37 AM
The way I see it, ZCP takes too much of the good away vs. the bad(heavy gadgets)..\

ZCP=
no steering wheel controls(BT, volume, Cruise)
NAV is a beautiful thing..
Cruise is a beautiful thing
IMO even uglier trim
smaller wheels

If you were to order a standard M
You can get everything except for the brakes, alcantra, and trim(at least from what I know of)
From the sounds of it all later 05's will have the same rack as ZCP
factory double spokes sell like hotcakes..I see countless e36 with them(EBAY)

To me, it's not worth it...I like to have all the goods..and from the looks of it and the way I foresee BMW going, especially with styling...E46 might be a highly sought after car in the future..meaning resell might be worthwhile...It might be a good idea to get it loaded..But then again ZCP might be a good selling point as well..as far as resell value goes...

it's your preference\

I agree with the steering wheel controls. I have a left over M wheel from my old 330 that I am researching to see if I can retrofit to my Comp Pkg. I really hope this can be done as I will miss the wheel controls. :(

You can still order Nav, I did.

I also agree with the interior trim. I would rather have the real aluminum. I might try and trade later if it really bothers me.

The wheels are not smaller. They are 19's as well.

The steering rack is different while the suspension upgrades are an across the board 05 M thing.

Still worth it for me. Not to mention the IB color. :p

;)

Nick325xiT 5spd
04-07-2005, 06:52 AM
Ah...real CSL wheels on the rear (same part #). 1/2" less wide but similar quality to CSL wheels on the front. THEN you would have to pop for 19" tires also.... so 2K for the wheels, + at least $500.00 difference between selling the originals and buying 19" tires.

EVERYONE likes the idea of having the Euro rotors on there car. Why not get the REAL CSL brakes for the car, and the REAL CSL steering rack also...

All in all it's quite a good deal, IF you like/want the wheels. :beerchug:
And even though he gets mad at me every time I say it, just be aware that the extremely expensive brake rotors will not stand up nearly as well to heavy track use as the standard solids.

Patrick
04-07-2005, 07:07 AM
Looks like this became a M3zhp thread. :p

Get ff in here then! :eeps:


.

Aknatar
04-07-2005, 08:32 AM
\


Still worth it for me. Not to mention the IB color. :p

;)

Good then, post pictures when you get it. :thumbup:

e36M3r
04-07-2005, 09:49 AM
Nah, that's old history. :beerchug:

The other side of the coin is, they do perform somewhat better than the solids, thus why essentially all high performance rotors are drilled.

Hey Nick, that kick down switch is @#%#% annoying. Where do you suppost full throttle is, at then end of the push up to the kick down (thus the kick-down switch just signals auto mode it's OK to drop down a gear), or must you press past the kick-down switch to get full throttle. If it's the latter, then the pedal MUST be changed. Have you looked into the swap any further?

And even though he gets mad at me every time I say it, just be aware that the extremely expensive brake rotors will not stand up nearly as well to heavy track use as the standard solids.

BahnBaum
04-07-2005, 10:48 AM
...thus why essentially all high performance rotors are drilled.

I suppose that these guys:

http://AlexTBaum.smugmug.com/photos/14560081-M.jpg



would disagree:

http://AlexTBaum.smugmug.com/photos/19129706-L.jpg





Alex

e36M3r
04-07-2005, 11:10 AM
:p Nothing do disagree with. "Essentially" leaves room for the few exceptions.

flashinthepan
04-07-2005, 11:11 AM
Hi all, well i think i am going to buy a new 2005 BMW M3 either Carbon Black or the Metallic Silver, still unsure. i am in the military stationed overseas and won't have access to test drive one for a while, and have no salesperson to ask questions so i decided to ask you guys. here is what i am planning to get.
2005 bmw m3 silver or black (leaning towards silver so it's easier to keep clean)
performance package
trying to decide on the competition package - i am considering buying aftermarket wheels so this might not be worth it.
xenon headlights
no nav

1.besides wheels i think i may upgrade the audio system and am wondering what it is like without the nav. i am assumming you only get that screen i see in the pics when you order nav, is this correct? also, is the system without nav 1 din or 2?

2. if i upgrade the deck, will the steering wheel controls still work with an aftermarket deck?

3. i am trying to decide if i want the factory spoiler...i may eventually put an aftermarket spoiler and am wondering if most aftermarket spoilers use existing holes from the oem spoiler? is it better to go with the spoiler deletion option so you dont have to worry about holes?

4. is the competition package worth it, i know you lose the steering wheel cruise control, so does that mean you lose cruise control all together? did the put the control somwhere else? this doesn't matter so much, just wondering.

well i guess that's about it for now, that's all the ?'s i can think of, thanks in advance to all who respond.

Its so damn hard to pick :rofl:

But above all...

CONGRAT-U-FREAK-A-LATIONS !!!!!

:thumbup: :thumbup:

bren
04-07-2005, 11:13 AM
I suppose that these guys:


would disagree:


And these guys:

http://www.ptgracing.com/images/2005/daytonatest/21guyswk.gif

TD330ci
04-07-2005, 12:15 PM
Its so damn hard to pick :rofl:

But above all...

CONGRAT-U-FREAK-A-LATIONS !!!!!

:thumbup: :thumbup:


:stupid:

Nick325xiT 5spd
04-07-2005, 12:19 PM
I'm not sure where WOT is, but I can tell you that I've given very serious thought to swapping in a manual pedal.

Nah, that's old history. :beerchug:

The other side of the coin is, they do perform somewhat better than the solids, thus why essentially all high performance rotors are drilled.

Hey Nick, that kick down switch is @#%#% annoying. Where do you suppost full throttle is, at then end of the push up to the kick down (thus the kick-down switch just signals auto mode it's OK to drop down a gear), or must you press past the kick-down switch to get full throttle. If it's the latter, then the pedal MUST be changed. Have you looked into the swap any further?

e36M3r
04-07-2005, 12:24 PM
I can live with it if full throttle is at the bottom of the throw, before kick down as the kick down switch is fairly stiff so I'd normaly never feel it, but if we must go past the switch for WOT, then I'm never getting 100% as I'd rarely push past it. If you find any details please let me know.

I'm not sure where WOT is, but I can tell you that I've given very serious thought to swapping in a manual pedal.

Pinecone
04-09-2005, 06:20 AM
The other side of the coin is, they do perform somewhat better than the solids, thus why essentially all high performance rotors are drilled.

Hey Nick, that kick down switch is @#%#% annoying. Where do you suppost full throttle is, at then end of the push up to the kick down (thus the kick-down switch just signals auto mode it's OK to drop down a gear), or must you press past the kick-down switch to get full throttle. If it's the latter, then the pedal MUST be changed. Have you looked into the swap any further?

a) Wrong. MANY years ago, with old tech brake pads, drilled rotors were used to let pad gases escape. Later slotted rotors were found to work better. Plus they help remove pad glaze (at the expensive of seriously reducing pad life). Also at one time people THOUGHT that drilled rotors cooled beter, but they has been proven to be false. ONLY reason for drilled rotors is looks, in this day and age.

2) Full throttle occurs when before the kickdown switch. Testing in the early days of SMG showed that at as you hit the kick down switch, the pedal has sent about a 107% signal to the computer, so full thorrle is actually slightly earlier.

That said, I have a non-kick down pedal in mine, and I prefer it. And I also NEVER use auto, at least not intentionally, and then only until I realize it and take it out of auto. :)

Jim in Oregon
04-10-2005, 01:47 AM
The kickdown switch is just that...it tells the auto mode to downshift. Someone a few years ago tested the pedal and full throttle was right at the kickdown switch, and beyond did nothing except summon a downshift. Lots of people of yore when the "sticky" pedal ran rampant took their smg car into the dealer and the dealer screwed up and installed the pedal with no switch. Amazingly enough, the car still downshifted in auto with no kickdown shift. My guess is that the kickdown switch just made deeper downshifts, meaning a kickdown from 6 to 3 or 5 to 2, whereas without the switch, the car only downshifted 1 gear. Most people preferred not having the button. Myself, I prefer the button since I know when I'm at full throttle, without really slamming my foot to the floor.




Nah, that's old history. :beerchug:

The other side of the coin is, they do perform somewhat better than the solids, thus why essentially all high performance rotors are drilled.

Hey Nick, that kick down switch is @#%#% annoying. Where do you suppost full throttle is, at then end of the push up to the kick down (thus the kick-down switch just signals auto mode it's OK to drop down a gear), or must you press past the kick-down switch to get full throttle. If it's the latter, then the pedal MUST be changed. Have you looked into the swap any further?

'Cane
04-10-2005, 07:49 AM
performance package

Not sure what you are thinking of (premium package?), but there is no performance package for the M3.

e36M3r
04-10-2005, 08:52 AM
Thanks Jim, Pinecone. That sounds good, thanks for the info. I did a bit of research and found the same deal, Dr G had written a white-paper on it also. OK, I'll wait for the car now and drive it for awhile. Since it's new, the kick-down switch is fairly robust, (IE: you must give it a pretty good press to get past it), so I think I'll try to live with it knowing I never have to activate it.

The kickdown switch is just that...it tells the auto mode to downshift.... I prefer the button since I know when I'm at full throttle, without really slamming my foot to the floor.

snalliah
04-10-2005, 09:51 AM
I just picked up an 05 M3 with ZCP couple of weeks ago and I have to say its worth the $4k. I test drove regular M3s and spent quite sometime before I made my decision. I dont like/care for the interlagos blue color and you can option the ZCP without it, mine's silver-gray.

First, the alacantara steering wheel is addictive, once you're used to it no other steering wheel feels normal after that. The brakes are phenomenal, they supposedly shaved off a good 12ft off the brake timing. I have to say I prefer the regular M3 wheels however I like the fact that I have a unique looking (stock) M3. The suspension is actually *softer* than the regular M3, which works great for me since I have to drive on some bad roads here and its not annoying. As for the buttons on the wheel, I never cared for them and I think the wheel looks cleaner without the cluttering. Yes, you do lose the cruise control,but I personally don't see the point in cruise control on an M3 but thats MO. If you add up the wheels/tires + steering wheel + brakes + suspension + uniqueness, I think its worth the $4k.

If you want more details on the ZCP, MotorTrend mag had a first look article on it this month and I quote their conclusion "its the best $4k you can spend on an M3".

BTW, the ZCP is the first production BMW with cross-drilled rotors (I didnt know this).

Cheers!

TD330ci
04-10-2005, 11:51 AM
I just picked up an 05 M3 with ZCP couple of weeks ago and I have to say its worth the $4k. I test drove regular M3s and spent quite sometime before I made my decision. I dont like/care for the interlagos blue color and you can option the ZCP without it, mine's silver-gray.

First, the alacantara steering wheel is addictive, once you're used to it no other steering wheel feels normal after that. The brakes are phenomenal, they supposedly shaved off a good 12ft off the brake timing. I have to say I prefer the regular M3 wheels however I like the fact that I have a unique looking (stock) M3. The suspension is actually *softer* than the regular M3, which works great for me since I have to drive on some bad roads here and its not annoying. As for the buttons on the wheel, I never cared for them and I think the wheel looks cleaner without the cluttering. Yes, you do lose the cruise control,but I personally don't see the point in cruise control on an M3 but thats MO. If you add up the wheels/tires + steering wheel + brakes + suspension + uniqueness, I think its worth the $4k.

If you want more details on the ZCP, MotorTrend mag had a first look article on it this month and I quote their conclusion "its the best $4k you can spend on an M3".

BTW, the ZCP is the first production BMW with cross-drilled rotors (I didnt know this).

Cheers!

Glad you are enjoying your mew M3!! :thumbup:

Just one comment. All 05 M3's get the same suspension. Whether that is softer or not is another story. :p

I actually like the regular steering wheel better and I am going to try and retrofit one when mine comes in in June.

Cheers. :)

snalliah
04-10-2005, 02:09 PM
Glad you are enjoying your mew M3!! :thumbup:

Just one comment. All 05 M3's get the same suspension. Whether that is softer or not is another story. :p

I actually like the regular steering wheel better and I am going to try and retrofit one when mine comes in in June.

Cheers. :)

Great, how did you option yours? What color?

bren
04-10-2005, 03:35 PM
If you want more details on the ZCP, MotorTrend mag had a first look article on it this month and I quote their conclusion "its the best $4k you can spend on an M3".
:rofl:

BTW, the ZCP is the first production BMW with cross-drilled rotors (I didnt know this). Dealer tell you that? :tsk:

Pinecone
04-10-2005, 05:35 PM
Some people have found the Alcantara wheel to wear faster, getting smooth and shiny.

The reason no drilled rotors, is they are NOT a GOOD thing. They are much more problem to cracking.

TD330ci
04-10-2005, 05:55 PM
:rofl:
Latest comment from Bren the ZCP basher. :tsk:

TD330ci
04-10-2005, 05:58 PM
Great, how did you option yours? What color?

IB/Cinnamon
6 spd
bun warmers
moonroof
nav
sunshade
H/K
Comp Pkg
power seats
xenons
assist

Cheers. :)

TD330ci
04-10-2005, 06:00 PM
Some people have found the Alcantara wheel to wear faster, getting smooth and shiny.

The reason no drilled rotors, is they are NOT a GOOD thing. They are much more problem to cracking.

IF you track your car maybe, which I wont. But for those that do, that sucks. :(

bren
04-10-2005, 06:29 PM
Latest comment from Bren the ZCP basher. :tsk:
:dunno: ....there are far better upgrades for my $4k. But who am I to question Motor Trend :rolleyes:

BahnBaum
04-10-2005, 07:04 PM
Latest comment from Bren the ZCP basher. :tsk:

Come one, you have to admit that any quote attributed to Motor Trend is a little suspect. :p

Alex

snalliah
04-10-2005, 07:44 PM
:rofl:

Dealer tell you that? :tsk:
No way I am trusting the dealer on any kind of statistic or otherwise, in fact I did'nt trust a word he said - I double checked eveything and he was wrong a lot.

This fact is from the same Motor Trend article that I quoted - I do trust them.

BahnBaum
04-10-2005, 07:51 PM
No way I am trusting the dealer on any kind of statistic or otherwise, in fact I did'nt trust a word he said - I double checked eveything and he was wrong a lot.

This fact is from the same Motor Trend article that I quoted - I do trust them.

You might be better off trusting the dealer.

Alex

snalliah
04-10-2005, 07:59 PM
You might be better off trusting the dealer.

Alex

Sure, MotorTrend could be wrong but I am certainly not trusting the dealer... :)

TD330ci
04-10-2005, 08:36 PM
Come one, you have to admit that any quote attributed to Motor Trend is a little suspect. :p

Alex

I do agree that they can be a little suspect as we all can be in life. It was more to the point of giving Bren yet another ZCP bashing opertunity, which he of course took. I would have expected no less. :p

dawgbone
04-11-2005, 06:03 AM
a) Wrong. MANY years ago, with old tech brake pads, drilled rotors were used to let pad gases escape. Later slotted rotors were found to work better. Plus they help remove pad glaze (at the expensive of seriously reducing pad life). Also at one time people THOUGHT that drilled rotors cooled beter, but they has been proven to be false. ONLY reason for drilled rotors is looks, in this day and age.

Finally.... someone that knows...Yes drilled rotors do in fact cool faster, but, they also heat up quicker...And the main purpose of the holes are to rid of the gases between the pads/rotors..

Regardless, I couldn't see you putting the rotors under that much stress(actual race conditions), as to the point of cracking them...The only reasons that they should crack would be 1) too small of diameter or 2) you're coming into corners too hot, and/or you don't know the limits of your brakes, and refuse to conserve them...

The drill rotors do perform, but with the right applications..I personally think that both the standard rotor and the drilled rotors, are too small..Probably the best upgrade (mod) as far as breaks on an e46, would be new stainless lines and decent brake fluid...Most probably, you will never have an issue with them..unless your left foot gets bored(SMG) and you let it sleep on the left peddle while driving through puddle of water :)

Oh...and drilled rotors do look good too :thumbup:

dawgbone
04-11-2005, 06:13 AM
IF you track your car maybe, which I wont. But for those that do, that sucks. :(

Even if you track your car...you won't have a problem...I doubt that many people on this board have actually cracked drilled rotors...I guarantee, if you track your car, and have the assistance of an instructor(i.e. not solo) you will not crack your rotors on the hottest day..

TD330ci
04-11-2005, 07:30 AM
:dunno: ....there are far better upgrades for my $4k. But who am I to question Motor Trend :rolleyes:

Actually closer to $2100 after the 19 inch wheel upgrade you got. :p :angel:

bren
04-11-2005, 08:11 AM
Actually closer to $2100 after the 19 inch wheel upgrade you got. :p :angel:
I'm a sucker for forged wheels...what can I say :fingers:

Army Chief
04-11-2005, 10:41 AM
Actually, Military Sales offices in Germany are affiliated with host nation dealerships, so you can see some of the cars, and speak with a competent sales rep, etc.

As for the Comp Package, I'll leave that one alone. I didn't feel it warranted waiting an extra 4-5 months for my car, but I did drop $2,100 for Individual paint, so what do I know? :)

Chief

Pinecone
04-16-2005, 10:27 AM
Finally.... someone that knows...Yes drilled rotors do in fact cool faster, but, they also heat up quicker...And the main purpose of the holes are to rid of the gases between the pads/rotors..

Regardless, I couldn't see you putting the rotors under that much stress(actual race conditions), as to the point of cracking them...The only reasons that they should crack would be 1) too small of diameter or 2) you're coming into corners too hot, and/or you don't know the limits of your brakes, and refuse to conserve them...

The drill rotors do perform, but with the right applications..I personally think that both the standard rotor and the drilled rotors, are too small..Probably the best upgrade (mod) as far as breaks on an e46, would be new stainless lines and decent brake fluid...Most probably, you will never have an issue with them..unless your left foot gets bored(SMG) and you let it sleep on the left peddle while driving through puddle of water :)

Oh...and drilled rotors do look good too :thumbup:

Actually they don't cool faster. AIr doesn';t move through the wholes except possibly when you are stopped. Maybe in the days of soild rotors, but with entilated rotors the air moves radially through the rotor and hole don'
t do anything, except start cracks.

And many race teams, as well as people who track rotors with holes in them, find them cracking between holes.

You under estimate the potential of a stock E46 M3. You are talking about a car that one street tires is good for 145 at the Glen and 135 at VIR (two place on the full track), and over 140 at Summit Point, and weighs some 3400 pounds with people on board. Add in R-comp tires and any form of suspension upgrade, and you are talking even higher speeds into braking zones. The car is bloddy FAST, and bloody HEAVY. LOTS of brake energy.

SS brakes lines don't do anything for dealing with heat. They do enhance pedal feel by eliminating one more area of flex in the system.

HUMMM 3
04-16-2005, 11:24 AM
Actually they don't cool faster. AIr doesn';t move through the wholes except possibly when you are stopped. Maybe in the days of soild rotors, but with entilated rotors the air moves radially through the rotor and hole don'
t do anything, except start cracks.

And many race teams, as well as people who track rotors with holes in them, find them cracking between holes.

You under estimate the potential of a stock E46 M3. You are talking about a car that one street tires is good for 145 at the Glen and 135 at VIR (two place on the full track), and over 140 at Summit Point, and weighs some 3400 pounds with people on board. Add in R-comp tires and any form of suspension upgrade, and you are talking even higher speeds into braking zones. The car is bloddy FAST, and bloody HEAVY. LOTS of brake energy.

SS brakes lines don't do anything for dealing with heat. They do enhance pedal feel by eliminating one more area of flex in the system.

Pinecone, since I consider you to be the expert here, tell me if I made a mistake in upgrading my brakes to the slotted Dinan (Brembo GT) front and rear binders. Other than spending way to much money that is. BTW They come with Ferodo pads. I'd value your opinion.

Pinecone
04-17-2005, 03:15 AM
Only downside of slotting is less pad life. The slots act as a lathe to grind the pads off a bit quicker. The idea on the race track is that they scrape off any glazing that might occur.

Also if there is any pad outgassing, the slots will carry that away also. But not a problem with modern pads, except BRAND new ones. Once they are bedded no problem.

For the street, a MUCH better choice than drilled, but the best overall is really just normal rotors.

So, I wouldn't say you made a big mistake, but maybe a very small one. :)

Ferodo was a very big name in pads, but not heard from much lately. But if they are working well, then they are working well. :) The things I look for in pads is good initial bite, linear feel, low dust (for street) and low noise (also for street). And pretty much in that order.

HUMMM 3
04-17-2005, 07:46 AM
Only downside of slotting is less pad life. The slots act as a lathe to grind the pads off a bit quicker. The idea on the race track is that they scrape off any glazing that might occur.

Also if there is any pad outgassing, the slots will carry that away also. But not a problem with modern pads, except BRAND new ones. Once they are bedded no problem.

For the street, a MUCH better choice than drilled, but the best overall is really just normal rotors.

So, I wouldn't say you made a big mistake, but maybe a very small one. :)

Ferodo was a very big name in pads, but not heard from much lately. But if they are working well, then they are working well. :) The things I look for in pads is good initial bite, linear feel, low dust (for street) and low noise (also for street). And pretty much in that order.

Thanks, I feel better. I think. They seem to work great. It may be my imagination, but they do seem to slow me down quicker.

spta97
05-12-2005, 11:56 AM
I'm not an M3 owner (yet - hopefully this summer) but I was reading this thread and wanted to comment on the cross drilled rotors. Apparently many people had problems with cracking when the holes were actually DRILLED into the rotors therefore weakening the structure. The better "cross-drilled" rotors from what I am told are actually forged with the holes in them making one solid structure less prone to metal fatigue.

I was looking at the PDF file on the competition package and they said that the cross-drilled may make more noise than the regular rotors - is that the case? I personally think they look cool (and are almost 1" bigger) but I'm a big fan of symmetry. If they were cross-drilled in both the front AND the back I would like it better.

The other concern of mine is that performance brakes are usually meant for the track and do not necessarily perform the same way. My friend put performance pads and power slot rotors on his car and stated that they did not really start grabbing until they heated up and almost caused an accident when pulling out of a parking spot. Not to say that the BMW brakes would be the same as those.

bren
05-12-2005, 12:05 PM
Apparently many people had problems with cracking when the holes were actually DRILLED into the rotors therefore weakening the structure. The better "cross-drilled" rotors from what I am told are actually forged with the holes in them making one solid structure less prone to metal fatigue.They can't be "one solid structure" with holes in them.

If they were cross-drilled in both the front AND the back I would like it better.I guess it's your lucky day.

The other concern of mine is that performance brakes are usually meant for the track and do not necessarily perform the same way.Don't worry...the car is not intended for track use.

spta97
05-12-2005, 12:46 PM
They can't be "one solid structure" with holes in them.

Here's a quote (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:61z4OmYv0UYJ:www.vehiclecraft.com/Brakes/rot_ques.htm+drilling+vs+cast+rotors&hl=en) that explains it better:

"The drilled rotor so common on the Porsche 930 turbo is NOT really drilled at all. It is a CAST hole. Porsche did this to help minimize the effects a hole has in creating a stress riser in the surface of the brake rotor. A drilled hole goes directly through and interrupts the grain structure of the metal. Where as a cast hole has the grain structure formed around it in an uninterrupted flow. All holes in a brake rotor will eventually show signs of stress cracking. A drilled hole will crack much sooner than a cast one"

I guess it's your lucky day.
From the Competition package PDF (http://www.bmwusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/F92E4F82-9458-436A-BEA6-FC46D98369FA/0/M3_Compt_Pkg_.pdf)

"The cross-drilled, compound front rotors have been increased to 13.6" (up from 12.8"). "

I do not see any mention of the rear rotors being cross-drilled as well - is BMW incorrect? :dunno:

Don't worry...the car is not intended for track use.

Again, reading the Competition package PDF (http://www.bmwusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/F92E4F82-9458-436A-BEA6-FC46D98369FA/0/M3_Compt_Pkg_.pdf):

"The M3ís already powerful brakes have been improved to meet the demands of repetitive hard braking experienced on the track." :dunno:

TD330ci
05-12-2005, 12:48 PM
Don't worry...the car is not intended for track use.

That would mean neither was the non ZCP M3, but quite a few people do it anyway. :p

bren
05-12-2005, 12:58 PM
That would mean neither was the non ZCP M3, but quite a few people do it anyway. :p
Right. But they aren't misled by BMW into believing they bought some sort of track ready "race" car.

bren
05-12-2005, 01:02 PM
Here's a quote (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:61z4OmYv0UYJ:www.vehiclecraft.com/Brakes/rot_ques.htm+drilling+vs+cast+rotors&hl=en) that explains it better:

"The drilled rotor so common on the Porsche 930 turbo is NOT really drilled at all. It is a CAST hole. Porsche did this to help minimize the effects a hole has in creating a stress riser in the surface of the brake rotor. A drilled hole goes directly through and interrupts the grain structure of the metal. Where as a cast hole has the grain structure formed around it in an uninterrupted flow. All holes in a brake rotor will eventually show signs of stress cracking. A drilled hole will crack much sooner than a cast one"
You said forged...not cast. Those are vastly different processes.

From the Competition package PDF (http://www.bmwusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/F92E4F82-9458-436A-BEA6-FC46D98369FA/0/M3_Compt_Pkg_.pdf)

"The cross-drilled, compound front rotors have been increased to 13.6" (up from 12.8"). "

I do not see any mention of the rear rotors being cross-drilled as well - is BMW incorrect? :dunno:
No, what you didn't see mention of was an increase in rotor size for the rear. Where does it say the rears are not drilled?


Again, reading the Competition package PDF (http://www.bmwusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/F92E4F82-9458-436A-BEA6-FC46D98369FA/0/M3_Compt_Pkg_.pdf):

"The M3ís already powerful brakes have been improved to meet the demands of repetitive hard braking experienced on the track." :dunno:Go ahead and track the ZCP and try to get the rotors replaced under warranty. BMW clearly states that any track time will void your warranty. Next time you watch an auto race check to see how many cars actually still use drilled rotors. They will crack when used on the track as is clearly stated in your quote above "All holes in a brake rotor will eventually show signs of stress cracking. A drilled hole will crack much sooner than a cast one"

TD330ci
05-12-2005, 01:03 PM
Right. But they aren't misled by BMW into believing they bought some sort of track ready "race" car.

Well to the total idiot who does not know any better. They probably should not be tracking them at that point anyway. :rofl:

I know it's not "track" ready but it's no furhter off then the non-ZCP. :angel:

No worse then Mits advertising the rally capabilities of the EVO and then refusing all warranty claims because of such use. :rolleyes:

Andre Yew
05-12-2005, 02:11 PM
Besides the cross-drilling, the ZCP rotors are also floating rotors with aluminum hats. The hats reduce weight, but are prone to cracking as well, and must be checked periodically. I believe that because of liability fears of hat fatigue, the Euro M3 brakes weren't offered in the US initially. The floating rotor accommodates heat expansion radially so the braking surface stays planar instead of bowed.

--Andre

Pinecone
05-12-2005, 04:45 PM
Also realize there are performance pads and performance pads.

There are street performance pads that work fine cold. Maybe not quite as well as stock BMW pads, but still fine for street use. Less dust many itme, low noise, but better high temperature performance.

Then there are track biased performance pads. Most of these take a good bit of heat to work. NOT good for street use, since you often have cold pads with virtually no bite. Also these tend to make a lot of noise and a LOT of dust, which may be corrosive adn ruin wheels and paint jobs if not washed off promptly.

There are a few pads with reasonble cold bite that hold up on the track. But they are few.

The rotors had nothing to do with it, he picked the wrong pads.

Pinecone
05-12-2005, 04:47 PM
Besides the cross-drilling, the ZCP rotors are also floating rotors with aluminum hats. The hats reduce weight, but are prone to cracking as well, and must be checked periodically. I believe that because of liability fears of hat fatigue, the Euro M3 brakes weren't offered in the US initially. The floating rotor accommodates heat expansion radially so the braking surface stays planar instead of bowed.

--Andre

Actually the euro brakes were not offered in the US due to concerns about complaints about noisy brakes. BMW figures most Americans are pretty much idiots when it comes to cars. Unfortunately, in many cases they are absolutely correct.

RChoudry
05-12-2005, 06:27 PM
there is so much talk about wheels and brakes. Both are essentially parts bin items that any M3 can update down the road for a price.


the steering rack is the only piece that can't be bought/fitted later because of the sensors/electronics/DME's that need to be updated. this might be the best reason to get the package, but many keep saying that it is only a marginal difference.

thoughts?

bren
05-12-2005, 06:38 PM
there is so much talk about wheels and brakes. Both are essentially parts bin items that any M3 can update down the road for a price.


the steering rack is the only piece that can't be bought/fitted later because of the sensors/electronics/DME's that need to be updated. this might be the best reason to get the package, but many keep saying that it is only a marginal difference.

thoughts?
That is the ONLY item that interests me.

I really have to go drive one...although everything I've read from people who have actually owned/driven both says that the difference is negligible.

RChoudry
05-12-2005, 06:49 PM
yeah, it seems odd that the one thing the car needs to improve, $4000 doesn't seem to do much for.

anybody with a ZCP M3 able to tell a difference?

and boy would I be pissed if they added it to the base model this year!!

bren
05-12-2005, 06:56 PM
yeah, it seems odd that the one thing the car needs to improve, $4000 doesn't seem to do much for.


The thing the car needs to improve is to lose weight...a lot of weight.

Pinecone
05-13-2005, 04:16 AM
We can do that. When are we stripping your car out? :)

spta97
05-13-2005, 05:54 AM
No, what you didn't see mention of was an increase in rotor size for the rear. Where does it say the rears are not drilled?

[/I]

I did not see anything that says that the rear rotors have changed in diameter or are cross drilled. Only having bmwusa.com to go by I don't know what the answer is.

Perhaps someone who has the ZHP M3 knows the answer?

bren
05-13-2005, 07:30 AM
Perhaps someone who has the ZHP M3 knows the answer?
I thought that I already told you the answer :confused:

http://slhome.org/photos/m3_pcd/images/IMG_0036.jpg

http://www.m3forum.net/gallery/data/522/25162DSC00654.JPG

BahnBaum
05-13-2005, 07:31 AM
I thought that I already told you the answer :confused:

http://slhome.org/photos/m3_pcd/images/IMG_0036.jpg

http://www.m3forum.net/gallery/data/522/25162DSC00654.JPG

Damn those wheels look nice.

Alex

Pinecone
05-14-2005, 03:54 AM
Yeah, and BMWUSA.com says the ZCP package has forged wheels and 8.5 inch fronts. BOTH are wrong.

But those wheels DO look nice. Are the offsets th same as stock? I wonder if you can run rears all around? :)