Good, Better, Best.....Manual, SMG, Automatic!!

[MaxTimeOff]

Not a lot of activity on the board so I thought I would start a M6 transmission discussion.

I read somewhere very recently that the M6 has the 6 speed confirmed for the U.S. The question for me is...WHAT ABOUT AN AUTOMATIC!!!! That's right, I would much rather have an automatic than an antiquated 6 speed manual who's time has come and gone. For all of you inefficient rowers out there, get the manual quick because this method of shifting is going the way of the dinosaur, and not soon enough if you ask me.

Let's take a moment and look at the fine class of automobiles that the M6 is running in.

Continental GT - Automatic only
Austin Martin DB9 - Touchtronic 2 or Manual 6 speed
Mercedes CL55 - Automatic or "finger manual"
Ferrari Scaglietti 612 - F1 style only

I'm pretty sure I'm correct on the above, if I'm wrong, someone will correct me. The only one above that offers a manual is the DB9. I just don't understand why BMW would offer the M6, or the M5 for that matter, with a manual tranny. Clearly these cars are not track cars and if they were, the SMG would be the fastest way to get around the track anyways. The M6 is a GT cruiser and cruisers are best served with an auto or perhaps an SMG type tranny. One of the reasons I did not own an M5 in the past is because of the manual transmission.

Take a look at the success of the AMG line. Gobs of HP and torque bolted to an automatic has some appeal I would say. The negative with the AMG's is generally related to handling. That is why alot of us like the Bimmers. In my opinion if they married the cruiser class M5 & M6 to an auto, sales would increase dramatically. Us geezer cruisers could get the whole package including handling. I think it would open up a whole new class of buyers beyond BMW's wildest dreams, assuming they want to sell lots and lots of M5's & M6's. I must say, however, I do like the relatively small numbers of M6's that will be sold, as it makes the M6 sort of exclusive. Merecedes/AMG is sort of a victum of its own success, you see AMG SL55's & CL55's everywhere, at least here in California.

All that said, I always see lots of peoples crying and complaining about SMG only and no manual offered in the M6. Am I the only one on the face of the planet that would much perfer an automatic over a manual transmission in the M6??? Does anyone else feel this way? Will you admit this in public and be ostracized from the BMW rank-in-file!!!

Damn the manual....bring on the automatic!!!!

[drallafi]

Wow. You got some cajones comin' around here talking like that.

j/k To each his own. I agree that an automatic in the ///M cars would open them up to a whole new demographic, but I think an automatic tranny is the antichrist when it comes to what the ///M is really about.

[philippek]

Am I the only one on the face of the planet that would much perfer an automatic over a manual transmission in the M6???

Yes.

[Bonezilla]

It's funny if you think the manual trans is the "way of the dinosaur". Acura didn't produce a manual tranny in the 04 TL. They brought it back in the 05. Doesn't sound like manual transmissions are obsolete yet. Maybe 10 or 15 years from now. By then, your car will use ESP to shift. :D

[Desertnate]

Yes.

:stupid:

I don't care what type of ///M car it is, I want to row my own gears. I *MIGHT* take an SMG, but no chance of an slushbox.

The American market is the only place you will find so many slush boxes and I have never understood why AMG cars come with autos.

[SARAFIL]

Damn the manual....bring on the automatic!!!!
:snooze:




:drive:

[MaxTimeOff]

Yes.

Philippek,

With all due respect, I think you're wrong, very wrong. The vocal minority that frequents these boards will support your view. I think there is a wide majority of badge buyers etc. that don't care about these car aficionado sites and could care less about posting on them that would buy an M6 in an auto format and won't even look at the car because of the manual transmission. How many people who currently own an AMG Mercedes would buy them if the only option was a 6 speed? I think you would see a lot less buyers in that market. I bet Mercedes analyzed the demographic pretty seriously when they began to expand the AMG offerings and it is no mistake that auto transmissions are offered.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer that BMW is keeping the production relatively small but they could blow out the catagory if they wanted to by offering an auto. They would clean Benz's (AMG) clock IMHO.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Philippek,

With all due respect, I think you're wrong, very wrong. The vocal minority that frequents these boards will support your view. I think there is a wide majority of badge buyers etc. that don't care about these car aficionado sites and could care less about posting on them that would buy an M6 in an auto format and won't even look at the car because of the manual transmission. How many people who currently own an AMG Mercedes would buy them if the only option was a 6 speed? I think you would see a lot less buyers in that market. I bet Mercedes analyzed the demographic pretty seriously when they began to expand the AMG offerings and it is no mistake that auto transmissions are offered.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer that BMW is keeping the production relatively small but they could blow out the catagory if they wanted to by offering an auto. They would clean Benz's (AMG) clock IMHO.
Given how finicky the M cars tend to be, the last thing they need to do is sell them to people who want a slushbox.

[Lanc3r]

Philippek,

With all due respect, I think you're wrong, very wrong. The vocal minority that frequents these boards will support your view. I think there is a wide majority of badge buyers etc. that don't care about these car aficionado sites and could care less about posting on them that would buy an M6 in an auto format and won't even look at the car because of the manual transmission. How many people who currently own an AMG Mercedes would buy them if the only option was a 6 speed? I think you would see a lot less buyers in that market. I bet Mercedes analyzed the demographic pretty seriously when they began to expand the AMG offerings and it is no mistake that auto transmissions are offered.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer that BMW is keeping the production relatively small but they could blow out the catagory if they wanted to by offering an auto. They would clean Benz's (AMG) clock IMHO.


If you want a slushy buy a 645. simple.

[MaxTimeOff]

It's funny if you think the manual trans is the "way of the dinosaur". Acura didn't produce a manual tranny in the 04 TL. They brought it back in the 05. Doesn't sound like manual transmissions are obsolete yet. Maybe 10 or 15 years from now. By then, your car will use ESP to shift. :D

You sort of make my point. On more elite GT's (Bently Gt's, ferrari 612, Aston Martin, Benz's etc.) and the M6, we have already seen a trend away from manual transmissions. In the these high end price point cars people want the best and that does not include manual transmissions. On there way to extinction, manual transmissions will be put on lesser cars to meet certain price points (Acura TL). As the SMG type tranny's become less expensive (more units produced) they will filter down to more entry level cars leading to the extinction of the manual transmission. I think the time horizon could be shorter than 10 to 15 years.

[MaxTimeOff]

If you want a slushy buy a 645. simple.

Why not offer both in the M6? BMW makes more sales, "cavemen" get what they want, I get my slushy Mpower....everyone wins. Simple!

[MaxTimeOff]

Given how finicky the M cars tend to be, the last thing they need to do is sell them to people who want a slushbox.

More finicky than a Bently GT or Aston Martin...Please!

[philippek]

Philippek,

With all due respect, I think you're wrong, very wrong. The vocal minority that frequents these boards will support your view. I think there is a wide majority of badge buyers etc. that don't care about these car aficionado sites and could care less about posting on them that would buy an M6 in an auto format and won't even look at the car because of the manual transmission. How many people who currently own an AMG Mercedes would buy them if the only option was a 6 speed? I think you would see a lot less buyers in that market. I bet Mercedes analyzed the demographic pretty seriously when they began to expand the AMG offerings and it is no mistake that auto transmissions are offered.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer that BMW is keeping the production relatively small but they could blow out the catagory if they wanted to by offering an auto. They would clean Benz's (AMG) clock IMHO.

Max,

The M6's SMG will have an automatic mode, so your problem is solved. The reason MB didn't go with a manual transmission in the SL65 is because that is simply not their core competency. They don't make sticks in anything but their C and SLK classes, and those are far less powerful engines. It would have taken them a lot of time and $$$ to get a manual right in a beast like the SL65. In addition, that transmission just wouldn't sell in that car, it's not the right market for it.

BMW on the other hand, has always offered a manual tranny...everything but the 7 and X5 4.4 can get it. They're familiar with the technology and the market for BMWs demands that option at least be available.

To offer a slushbox in the ///Ms would be seen as something as a betrayal to the cognoscenti (witness the slushie M3/4s and cabs). Yes, it broadens the market appeal, but that isn't exactly the reason why ///M exists.

[SpeedFreak!]

If you want a slushy buy a 645. simple.

Apparently... he already has one. I am a strong supporter of the SMG trans. I can't wait to drive the M5 with a 7 spd SMG... that will be the ultimate.
The Ferrari is the only "True" performance car on your list... IMHO... and the F1 is their SMG. It's the best of both worlds. :thumbup:
And by the way... As long as TRUE car enthusiest live and breath... their will always be a demand for the "Direct Connect" of a manual. No matter how "good" autos get... fluid is fluid... and it will never be dry.

[drallafi]

You sort of make my point. On more elite GT's (Bently Gt's, ferrari 612, Aston Martin, Benz's etc.) and the M6, we have already seen a trend away from manual transmissions. In the these high end price point cars people want the best and that does not include manual transmissions. On there way to extinction, manual transmissions will be put on lesser cars to meet certain price points (Acura TL). As the SMG type tranny's become less expensive (more units produced) they will filter down to more entry level cars leading to the extinction of the manual transmission. I think the time horizon could be shorter than 10 to 15 years.

I think the other factor that you're not considering is that each of the vehicles you name here is *extremely* heavy...

Bentley GT: 5320 lbs.
Ferrari 612: 4056 lbs.
Aston Martin DB9: 3968 lbs.

The simple fact is that a manual transmission just doesn't work as well on a tank as it does on a light, agile car like the 3-series.

[MaxTimeOff]

I think the other factor that you're not considering is that each of the vehicles you name here is *extremely* heavy...

Bentley GT: 5320 lbs.
Ferrari 612: 4056 lbs.
Aston Martin DB9: 3968 lbs.

The simple fact is that a manual transmission just doesn't work as well on a tank as it does on a light, agile car like the 3-series.

Interesting point. At approx 3800 lbs does the M6 fall into the "tank" category in your opinion?

[philippek]

Interesting point. At approx 3800 lbs does the M6 fall into the "tank" category in your opinion?

It's certainly no ballerina.

[SpeedFreak!]

Interesting point. At approx 3800 lbs does the M6 fall into the "tank" category in your opinion?

LOL... I was scrambling to find the number... I knew it was around that. :rofl:

[MaxTimeOff]

Max,

The M6's SMG will have an automatic mode, so your problem is solved. The reason MB didn't go with a manual transmission in the SL65 is because that is simply not their core competency. They don't make sticks in anything but their C and SLK classes, and those are far less powerful engines. It would have taken them a lot of time and $$$ to get a manual right in a beast like the SL65. In addition, that transmission just wouldn't sell in that car, it's not the right market for it.

BMW on the other hand, has always offered a manual tranny...everything but the 7 and X5 4.4 can get it. They're familiar with the technology and the market for BMWs demands that option at least be available.

To offer a slushbox in the ///Ms would be seen as something as a betrayal to the cognoscenti (witness the slushie M3/4s and cabs). Yes, it broadens the market appeal, but that isn't exactly the reason why ///M exists.

I agree with you about the SMG having an auto mode, if it's relatively smooth, and I hear the SMG III is, I'm home free. But my point is to foster thoughtful discussion about tranny options offered on the M6. I think the potential BMW market for the M6 is changing. I think the silent majority no longer demands a manual transmission. With the SMG, I think it renders the manual obsolete and unnecessary. If that is true, why not broaden the appeal of the M6 by offering an auto as well.

Why do ///M's exist? I think to make a performance statement for the brand, much like the Carerra GT or Enzo do for their respective brands, but not to that extreme. In the long run it's about profit, pure and simple. It has to be that way or companies cease to exist. Mpower winning on sunday helps sell cars on Monday. ///M's do broaden the market appeal of all BMW's that is a critical part of their existence, don't kid yourself. Broaden the appeal more by offering more of what the public will buy, and the manual tranny just does cut it anymore. Yes, as I expected, this rankles the oldtimers and purists, but that should not be the main concern. Look at Porsche, if management listened to the vocal minority (purists and old timers) that company would not exist today. BMW is no where near the condition Porsche was in the early 90's, not even remotely close. But a manual on a high end M6 GT cruiser that competes with some of the most exclusive brands available today just doesn't make sense to me, it's not forward thinking enough for the BMWAG Group.

[F1Crazy]

I agree with you about the SMG having an auto mode, if it's relatively smooth, and I hear the SMG III is, I'm home free. But my point is to foster thoughtful discussion about tranny options offered on the M6. I think the potential BMW market for the M6 is changing. I think the silent majority no longer demands a manual transmission. With the SMG, I think it renders the manual obsolete and unnecessary. If that is true, why not broaden the appeal of the M6 by offering an auto as well.

Why do ///M's exist? I think to make a performance statement for the brand, much like the Carerra GT or Enzo do for their respective brands, but not to that extreme. In the long run it's about profit, pure and simple. It has to be that way or companies cease to exist. Mpower winning on sunday helps sell cars on Monday. ///M's do broaden the market appeal of all BMW's that is a critical part of their existence, don't kid yourself. Broaden the appeal more by offering more of what the public will buy, and the manual tranny just does cut it anymore. Yes, as I expected, this rankles the oldtimers and purists, but that should not be the main concern. Look at Porsche, if management listened to the vocal minority (purists and old timers) that company would not exist today. BMW is no where near the condition Porsche was in the early 90's, not even remotely close. But a manual on a high end M6 GT cruiser that competes with some of the most exclusive brands available today just doesn't make sense to me, it's not forward thinking enough for the BMWAG Group.

First of all M cars are created by BMW M GmbH and thank god this company has different philosophy from BMW AG.

BMW M GmbH formerly known as BMW Motorsport GmbH was created to handle BMW's motorsport activities from building race cars to running factory race teams. Later came M cars: M1, M535i, M6, M5 and finally M3. All these cars have one thing in common - they use technology developed in racing. The focus here is performance and efficiency and this is one of the reasons we'll never see automatic transmission on M car. First ever clutch-less sequential gearbox in production car was introduced in 1996 in BMW M3 (SMG I) and I bet the next transmission to be introduced by BMW will be some type of DSG unit similar to what you can find in Audi cars. Both BMW and Porsche admitted they are working on that type of transmission since it is very efficient. Care to guess what will be the first BMW model to feature the new gearchange solution?

M models are the most driver oriented in their respective classes and this is what they are known for. It would be stupid to mess with the approach that brought success for the last 30 years.

Philosophy aside technology used in M cars is not suited for automatic transmissions. The new high-revving V10 engine produces lots of power but relatively small amount of torque with both power and torque curves that necessitate the use of 7 gears to achieve maximum performance. In comparison AMG super and turbocharged engines produce massive torque and suit automatics much better.

I think you should drive one of M cars right now to make sure you know what you're getting yourself into. Maybe it's time to move to M-B...

[MaxTimeOff]

First of all M cars are created by BMW M GmbH and thank god this company has different philosophy from BMW AG.

BMW M GmbH formerly known as BMW Motorsport GmbH was created to handle BMW's motorsport activities from building race cars to running factory race teams. Later came M cars: M1, M535i, M6, M5 and finally M3. All these cars have one thing in common - they use technology developed in racing. The focus here is performance and efficiency and this is one of the reasons we'll never see automatic transmission on M car. First ever clutch-less sequential gearbox in production car was introduced in 1996 in BMW M3 (SMG I) and I bet the next transmission to be introduced by BMW will be some type of DSG unit similar to what you can find in Audi cars. Both BMW and Porsche admitted they are working on that type of transmission since it is very efficient. Care to guess what will be the first BMW model to feature the new gearchange solution?

M models are the most driver oriented in their respective classes and this is what they are known for. It would be stupid to mess with the approach that brought success for the last 30 years.

Philosophy aside technology used in M cars is not suited for automatic transmissions. The new high-revving V10 engine produces lots of power but relatively small amount of torque with both power and torque curves that necessitate the use of 7 gears to achieve maximum performance. In comparison AMG super and turbocharged engines produce massive torque and suit automatics much better.

I think you should drive one of M cars right now to make sure you know what you're getting yourself into. Maybe it's time to move to M-B...

So I take it you agree that manual transmissions have a short remaining life in M cars. These SMG type transmissions will dominate and improve over time and the manuals will be a distant memory, I agree.

[swchang]

SpeedFreak! with his iDrive is the future, MaxTimeOff with his SMG is the future and autotragics in ///M's, and people loving Bangle butt styling and the idea of MX5's... :(

Where's Stuka and Dawg when you need 'em?

[SpeedFreak!]

SpeedFreak! with his iDrive is the future, MaxTimeOff with his SMG is the future and autotragics in ///M's, and people loving Bangle butt styling and the idea of MX5's... :(

Where's Stuka and Dawg when you need 'em?

LOL... :rofl: Dude... you crack me up! The M is like the Holy Grail... this is a whole different situation. Remember this about me... performance always comes first in my book. The second something truly gets in the way of performance, it gets the guns! :bang: Du du du... :confused:

[SpeedFreak!]

You know Max... I really do understand your point. The problem for your point is that BMW sells every single M car they produce... and in most cases... quickly, like before they ever get here. They don't need to "broaden the appeal" ... they own this particular part of the market. In fact... one could argue that BMW created it... and everyone else has been chasing them for the last 30 years.
F1Crazy said it best... the M division's primary consumer purpose is to build street legal race cars that we can buy for a reasonable price. :thumbup:
Ask yourself the question..."Could you imagine any racing of any kind featuring cars with Auto-matic-trans?!" :confused:
Come on man... be serious... it has nothing to do with being a Neanderthal... like I said earlier:
As long as TRUE car enthusiast live and breath... their will always be a demand for the "Direct Connect" of a manual (SMG included). No matter how "good" autos get... fluid is fluid... and it will never be dry.

[RONAN]

I have no problem at all in BMW building an auto M6. I currently have a 6-speed and an SL500 among others. The SL is actually very pleasant for a nice quiet cruise around with the top down on a sunny day. The 645 is just much more fun to drive.
I am near the top of the waiting list for the M6 and have thought a lot about the SMG vs Manual, (if available). I will go with the stick if possible,becuase I do believe that the days of the manula are numbered. DSG and SMG shifts are getting much better and I know that I do not have the skill to shift faster than an SMG, and even my heel-and-toe is not as good as the SMG rev-matching on downshift.
Yet, using skills that you have developed over many years makes you feel more of a part of the car, and even if it does not perform as well as an SMG, at least its the fault of the driver, and not the car. So, if possible, I will take my soon-to-be-obsolete and only reasonably competent skills and get the shift car, and will think about SMG or DSG next time.

[MaxTimeOff]

SpeedFreak,

I agree that they really don't need to broaden the appeal of the M's and quite frankly I hope they don't. If I wanted a car to be seen in and one that is seen everywhere I'd go for the Benz as F1Cracy suggested that I do.

The comment by F1Crazy "the M division's primary consumer purpose is to build street legal race cars that we can buy for a reasonable price" First off, if one thinks the M6 is a street legal race car they have seriously got to be joking. This thing is as close to a race car as my X5 is. If you have ever driven a "streetable" race car or any race car on the street you'll know what I am talking about. They are loud, low, and so stiff that are very undesirable as a truly streetable machine. No, the M6 is a fat, fast GT cruiser with catagory leading drivability. 99% of the buyers won't even think about taking them to the track and as such, a manual transmission is way out of place on this car, which has been my discussion point all along. ie., if BMW were to offer an optional tranny to the SMG, the automatic is much more fitting for this car than the manual, and IMHO would out sell the manual by a wide wide margin, much to the chagrin of oldtimers and purists.

I'm just the "antichrist", that would definately consider an automatic on the M6. A manual on a M3 or some other car that can be thrown around a bit, now that's a different story, of course the SMG would always be the superior choice in those cases.

[F1Crazy]

MaxTimeOff,
I didn't suggest that M6 is a street legal race car but it will have some of the race developed technology without sacrificing comfort features everyone wants nowadays and that means it will be heavier than it needs to be. Chassis must obviously be good enough for racing since BMW wants to race it in FIA GT class.

M cars won't have automatic transmissions because it is against their philosophy, automatics tamper performance and take away from driving experience, I hope you agree with that.

Automatic in M car is not what buyers want, it simply is bad business. I understand that there are number of people who would prefer automatic because they can't drive sticks and for them SMG is the answer. There are also huge numbers of poseurs who buy these cars for that M badge and they probably curse the stick every time they drive it but manual is part of the appeal even to them, it is so mucho after all. It's very sad but thanks to these assholes enthusiasts can still buy these cars. This goes also for P cars, I doubt we'd see GT2 or GT3 if it wasn't for the people who buy tiptronic turbos. There simply isn't big enough number of enthusiasts who buy these cars to justify development costs.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Basically, the M cars brought manual transmissions to segments of the market that don't really have them anymore. That's one of the things that makes them kind of special.

[MaxTimeOff]

"automatics tamper performance and take away from driving experience, I hope you agree with that. "

How could anyone disagree with the first part anyway. Although, some peoples driving experience could be enhanced by an auto especially if they are uncomfortable with a manual. It's a big world out there.

"Automatic in M car is not what buyers want, it simply is bad business."

I don't think that any of us can certian about this, you included. Take a look at the 645. In the U.S. it is offered with a SMG and Steptronic. I am not sure of the exact numbers (maybe someone can post them) but units sold with the Steptronic far out number the units sold with the SMG. For the most part, IMHO a majority of potential 6 series buyers view the M6 as a enhanced more powerful/agile version of the 645 soon-to-be 650. I think it is reasonable to assume, based on 645 data, that the automatic may have wider appeal over a manual tranny to the general population that would consider a 645/M6. If you take 645 sales as anecdotal evidence, one could certianly argue that point.

To say flat out that automatic M's are not what buyers want, in my opinion you begin to lose some credibility, or at least objectivity on this subject. In fact, this is why I brought up this discussion in the first place. There seemed to be so many posts that longed for a manual in the M6, while I think it's quite feasable, and most probable, that the auto tranny would/could be the "longed" for tranny by the entire universe of potential M6 buyers, not just the very small percentage of M6 buyers represented on this or other boards who clearly don't want it.

Don't be blinded by your love of the ///M.

[drallafi]

I will take my soon-to-be-obsolete and only reasonably competent skills and get the shift car, and will think about SMG or DSG next time.

Not me. One bout with SMG was more than enough. I'll be driving sticks till the day I die (or get too old to care).

[Stuka]

It's simple really, if one is not coordinated enough to operate a car with three pedals that, heaven forbid, one has to select a gear and use one's brain to drive, there is a big world of poseur friendly cars for people with this handicap. :p

The M6 doesn't need to be that. Why should they when they can and will sell every single M6 with SMG, which has some performance merit, than a slushbox that has no performance merit.

Again, if BMW can sell every single M car without resorting to neutering it with a poseur friendly gearbox, why should they? :confused:

There are plenty of GT cars out there for the inept drivers, the M6 doesn't need to play that game. Besides, the Bentley Continental has more bling factor anyway. :rofl:

[Alex Baumann]

.... In the these high end price point cars people want the best and that does not include manual transmissions.

I have lost all the interest in reading the rest of the thread after reading this. :rolleyes:

[MaxTimeOff]

I have lost all the interest in reading the rest of the thread after reading this. :rolleyes:

You are entitled to your opinion. That said, I would think a moderator would be a promoter of people sharing their opinions as long as it is done in a thoughtful and respectful way.

Shame on you Alex, I would expect better from you. "no rolleyes"

[Alex Baumann]

You are entitled to your opinion. That said, I would think a moderator would be a promoter of people sharing their opinions as long as it is done in a thoughtful and respectful way.

Shame on you Alex, I would expect better from you. "no rolleyes"

And I would expect better from you instead of a broad statement like "all you manual drivers suck, because it's not the best".

Who are you to judge that manual transmissions are the worst choice?

Don't give me an attitude, I didn't disrespect anyone. If you don't want to hear opinions, then don't post.

[Desertnate]

I have lost all the interest in reading the rest of the thread after reading this. :rolleyes:

:thumbup: :rofl:

Too bad TD isn't still around to post in this thread...that would have been a hoot!

[MaxTimeOff]

It's simple really, if you are not coordinated enough to operate a car with three pedals that, heaven forbid, you have to select a gear and use your brain to drive, there is a big world of poseur friendly cars for you. :p

The M6 doesn't need to be that. Why should they when they can and will sell every single M6 with SMG, which has some performance merit, than a slushbox that has no performance merit.

Again, if BMW can sell every single M car without resorting to neutering it with a poseur friendly gearbox, why should they? :confused:

There are plenty of GT cars out there for the inept drivers, the M6 doesn't need to play that game. Besides, the Bentley Continental has more bling factor anyway. :rofl:

I wondered how long it would take for someone to make a personal attack.

So now I'm not coordinated enough for three pedals, I'm inept and a poseur...all because I would consider an automatic in an M6?

Come on Stuka, we're just talking about tranny possibilities. It's not like I'm attacking anyone personally here. Raise the bar a little.

[SpeedFreak!]

SpeedFreak,

I agree that they really don't need to broaden the appeal of the M's and quite frankly I hope they don't. If I wanted a car to be seen in and one that is seen everywhere I'd go for the Benz as F1Cracy suggested that I do.

The comment by F1Crazy "the M division's primary consumer purpose is to build street legal race cars that we can buy for a reasonable price" First off, if one thinks the M6 is a street legal race car they have seriously got to be joking. This thing is as close to a race car as my X5 is. If you have ever driven a "streetable" race car or any race car on the street you'll know what I am talking about. They are loud, low, and so stiff that are very undesirable as a truly streetable machine. No, the M6 is a fat, fast GT cruiser with catagory leading drivability. 99% of the buyers won't even think about taking them to the track and as such, a manual transmission is way out of place on this car, which has been my discussion point all along. ie., if BMW were to offer an optional tranny to the SMG, the automatic is much more fitting for this car than the manual, and IMHO would out sell the manual by a wide wide margin, much to the chagrin of oldtimers and purists.

I'm just the "antichrist", that would definately consider an automatic on the M6. A manual on a M3 or some other car that can be thrown around a bit, now that's a different story, of course the SMG would always be the superior choice in those cases.

Hey there Max... I think I was bouncing off of F1 but those were mostly my words... I look at the M3 CSL as one extreme in the M division and the M5 as the other. I never equated the M6 to a tubed chassis carbon fiber exotic with a plate strapped on... even the M1 had power window and such. It's performance first and comfort second... it just so happens that the ability to have both has gotten pretty damn good these days. I would never say 99%... especially with Auto-X so freakin popular... I would say 60-70% will do some kind of track like event in their car. I can also tell you... dealing with hundreds of request for the M6 for the last 2 years... NEVER ONCE has a single person asked for or expressed interest in an Auto M6... until this thread. With that being said, Max... I FULLY respect and appreciate your opinion... I also respectfully disagree. I think it would be appropriate to start a thread that actually polls this forum of thousands to see how many would actually be interested in Auto-Ms. I think it would be very interesting indeed.

[MaxTimeOff]

"And I would expect better from you instead of a broad statement like "all you manual drivers suck, because it's not the best".

I never said "all manual drivers suck" I said nothing even remotely close to that, nor do I think that. Please show me where I said that. Hell I drive a manual in my little Cooper S and it's a hoot, and I would never have an automatic in that car.

"Who are you to judge that manual transmissions are the worst choice?"

....on a M6. It's just my opinion, wrong, or right. I think you said it best, "If you don't want to hear opinions, then don't post."

[TD330ci]

The focus here is performance and efficiency and this is one of the reasons we'll never see automatic transmission on M car.

Not totally true with the slush box in the american E36 M3. :p

[SpeedFreak!]

Not totally true with the slush box in the american E36 M3. :p

That was a deviation that proves the point many of us here are making. :confused: That move by BMW was proven to be a really bad one... which is why you have not seen it repeated. :thumbup:

[MaxTimeOff]

Hey there Max... I think I was bouncing off of F1 but those were mostly my words... I look at the M3 CSL as one extreme in the M division and the M5 as the other. I never equated the M6 to a tubed chassis carbon fiber exotic with a plate strapped on... even the M1 had power window and such. It's performance first and comfort second... it just so happens that the ability to have both has gotten pretty damn good these days. I would never say 99%... especially with Auto-X so freakin popular... I would say 60-70% will do some kind of track like event in their car. I can also tell you... dealing with hundreds of request for the M6 for the last 2 years... NEVER ONCE has a single person asked for or expressed interest in an Auto M6... until this thread. With that being said, Max... I FULLY respect and appreciate your opinion... I also respectfully disagree. I think it would be appropriate to start a thread that actually polls this forum of thousands to see how many would actually be interested in Auto-Ms. I think it would be very interesting indeed.

Hey there Speed,

A poll would be intertesting that's for sure. Although a poll of people who take the time to post on these sorts of boards might be somewhat biased to start, but at least it would be something. I think the potential person that might buy a M6 with an automatic doesn't even know it. It would be the guy that walks into the dealer looking for a luxury 5 or 7 series and sees this kicka$$ M6er. He may not consider a Manual or SMG, but with an auto, it becomes a possibility?

Back in1998/1999 when the 996 was just coming out, Porsche made a statement something to the effect that the 996 was more mainstream tapping into a different markets like jag, and others, I can't remember exactly. Has BMW made any statements about who the target is for the M6. At $100K+ a copy is it a 7 series buyer with a wild hair or a 3 series buyer stepping up? Or someone else?

Who is the target? Has BMW commented on this?

[MaxTimeOff]

That was a deviation that proves the point many of us here are making. :confused: That move by BMW was proven to be a really bad one... which is why you have not seen it repeated. :thumbup:

I think the M3 buyer is a completely different demographic that the M6 buyer. One costs $50K the other $100K. The M3 is a fun trackable car and I don't think you'll see the M6 on the track nearly as much.

Apples and oranges and not a good comparison, of course IMHO.

[Lanc3r]

I dont know, Im starting to think this Max guy is a troll. He comes to an enthusiast website and attacks the fundementals of an enthusiast's wet dream. :tsk:

Automatic tranny is not the ONLY amenity left out of the new M6 equation. Active stearing: GONE, NAV? GONE, Sunroof? GONE.

The small numbers of the new M6 are probably already spoken for. No need to make them more appealing to the LA commute drivers.

If they are going to add an automatic to the M6, they might as well take the M badge off. Or better yet, Max can just apply an M6 badge to his 645. Only an enthusiast will know the difference anyway.

[MaxTimeOff]

I dont know, Im starting to think this Max guy is a troll. He comes to an enthusiast website and attacks the fundementals of an enthusiast's wet dream. :tsk:

Automatic tranny is not the ONLY amenity left out of the new M6 equation. Active stearing: GONE, NAV? GONE, Sunroof? GONE.

The small numbers of the new M6 are probably already spoken for. No need to make them more appealing to the LA commute drivers.

If they are going to add an automatic to the M6, they might as well take the M badge off. Or better yet, Max can just apply an M6 badge to his 645. Only an enthusiast will know the difference anyway.

LOL!! Good one. I'm no troll, just making conversation and offering an alternative perspective. Maybe I should pipe down, because when it comes to wet dreams, we have got to draw the line :) !!

When I get my M6, I'd be more inclined to take off the M6 badge and replace it with the 650 badge! In reality though, I'll probably leave the M6 badge on. It will be a great car, one that I will be proud to own.

[SpeedFreak!]

Vote people... VOTE! Gas many to voice their opinion as possible. This could be very interesting.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99194

[F1Crazy]

When X5 4.6is was first introduced I've read an interview with one of the BMW managers and he was asked why they didn't simply produce M version of the X5. I'm gonna have to dig it out but he was explaining very clearly what M cars stand for, even 4 wheel drive disqualified the car.

MaxTimeOff, people don't buy cars like M6 off the sales floor, at least not many. If you're buying M car for performance and driving pleasure you don't even think about getting automatic, and if you're buying it for the ///M badge you want manual anyway because it's a part of the appeal, it makes you look so much more cool.

[Stuka]

I wondered how long it would take for someone to make a personal attack.

So now I'm not coordinated enough for three pedals, I'm inept and a poseur...all because I would consider an automatic in an M6?

Come on Stuka, we're just talking about tranny possibilities. It's not like I'm attacking anyone personally here. Raise the bar a little.

Take it personally if you will, I don't care. :rolleyes:

But, my post has been modified to use "one" insted of "you." :dunno:

[MaxTimeOff]

Vote people... VOTE! Gas many to voice their opinion as possible. This could be very interesting.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99194

Speed......How many times can I vote :) ??? Just kidding!

I would expect it to be heavily weighted towards the aficionado and purist perspective as that is the audience we are generally addressing. This will be fun never-the-less.

Last time I checked the poll there were two of us, after my vote of course!!

Max

[Stuka]

Not totally true with the slush box in the american E36 M3. :p

And people dumb enough to get one with it take a bath on the resale. I should know, an expensive 8 months lesson. :mad:

[hmr]

And people dumb enough to get one with it take a bath on the resale. I should know, an expensive 8 months lesson. :mad:

Stuka, say it ain't so. YOU bought an E36 M3 slushie? :eek:

[Stuka]

Stuka, say it ain't so. YOU bought an E36 M3 slushie? :eek:

97 M3 slushie with 8 months ownership.

98 M3 5 speed from 98 to 2001

02 M3 SMG from 2002 to 2003

03 Turbo 6 speed now

88 325is 5 speed now

Like I said, I was stupid enough to listen to believe that stick would be a biatch to drive in traffic. I wished that I had friends who intervened on my behalf and pervented me from my 8 months mistake. I took a bath on the resale, because dealers hate dealing on slushie M3's, period, end of story. :mad:

[MaxTimeOff]

Stuka, say it ain't so. YOU bought an E36 M3 slushie? :eek:

I was gonna say.......Hey we all make mistakes. I bought a 911 with a tip, what a mistake that was. I also got killed on resale.

Live and learn,

Max

[SpeedFreak!]

To be as fair as possible... I started another more specific poll... the way Max would like it. :thumbup:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99313

[MaxTimeOff]

To be as fair as possible... I started another more specific poll... the way Max would like it. :thumbup:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99313

First off, if anyone is interested in how this poll came to be, and the history and discussion behind this poll, check out the Bimmerfest M6 site for all of the fun and excitement!?

Ah yes, I am now completed, he he :) I am sort of surprised that we would even bother with this. Clearly this poll will not achieve anything except that we're all having a little fun doing it. Remember how this started. I was intrigued by several posts wanting a manual in the M6 here in the U.S. and my stance was that I would rather have an automatic offered in the new M6 over a manual offering or at least in addition to it. My thinking was that a steptronic actually befits this luxury GT cruiser better than a manual. I also went on to say that I felt that there is a silent majority (not represented on this site, by definition) that might want it as well. This poll, while fun, does not, and can not reach the pool of potential buyers that I am referring to. I think most of us can understand that.

When this poll is completed it will be very much in favor of a manual or SMG. Let's face it, this is a group of BMW lovers, old timers, traditionists, etc. who are steeped in the BMW lore and traditions, and they clearly see no need for a Step in the New M6.

So, Speed, thanks for trying. If you feel the (predictable) results of this poll support the position that a Steptronic is absolutely not wanted, by ALL potential M6 buyers, as an optional transmission offering on the new M6, more power to ya my friend.

Max

[CenterBmw]

Well look at the Z8. The Z8 was on back order for years until they discontinued it and brought in the Alpina version. The Alpina was the automatic and didnt sell nearly as well as the original manual tranny of the z8. And believe it or not the M6 is more of a performance car than the z8 was. So the buyers will also be looking for the manual tranny on the M6. Also the M6 is a high reving V10. With an automatic even on steptronic mode, the driver wont be able to reach the High Rpms that the car was meant to excell in.

[pcmike]

Philippek,

With all due respect, I think you're wrong, very wrong. The vocal minority that frequents these boards will support your view. I think there is a wide majority of badge buyers etc. that don't care about these car aficionado sites and could care less about posting on them that would buy an M6 in an auto format and won't even look at the car because of the manual transmission. How many people who currently own an AMG Mercedes would buy them if the only option was a 6 speed? I think you would see a lot less buyers in that market. I bet Mercedes analyzed the demographic pretty seriously when they began to expand the AMG offerings and it is no mistake that auto transmissions are offered.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer that BMW is keeping the production relatively small but they could blow out the catagory if they wanted to by offering an auto. They would clean Benz's (AMG) clock IMHO.

Thank God BMW hasn't sold out to "badge buyers" when it comes to the M line. There is nothing worse than an 80yr geezer in a performance car that never breaks the speed limit. What's the point? BMW can sell plenty of cars to all the "badge buyers" who aren't interested in performance via the 3,5,6,7 series, no need to degrade the pool of buyers who buy M cars. This is where principle comes into play...

[SpeedFreak!]

Well look at the Z8. The Z8 was on back order for years until they discontinued it and brought in the Alpina version. The Alpina was the automatic and didnt sell nearly as well as the original manual tranny of the z8. And believe it or not the M6 is more of a performance car than the z8 was. So the buyers will also be looking for the manual tranny on the M6. Also the M6 is a high reving V10. With an automatic even on steptronic mode, the driver wont be able to reach the High Rpms that the car was meant to excell in.

I wish I would have thought of this point during the meat of this discussion. The Alpina was a disaster here in the states. No M5 motor... and an Auto. I know dealers who had them sitting around for years. Perfect example. :thumbup:

[De_UnKnOwN_1]

i have a great idea!

make the ///M cars have a manual as base.. and SMG and Steptronic as options like all the other bimmers.

then EVERYONE IS HAPPY!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbup:

[andy_thomas]

Let's take a moment and look at the fine class of automobiles that the M6 is running in.

Continental GT - Automatic only
Austin Martin DB9 - Touchtronic 2 or Manual 6 speed
Mercedes CL55 - Automatic or "finger manual"
Ferrari Scaglietti 612 - F1 style only

The highest-revving of that quartet has an automated manual 'box, not an auto in the traditional sense. None of the others goes byeond 7,000, and the M5 goes higher than all of them. The problem is rpm - if you can find a good 'ol slushbox able to take 8,250+ rpm with enough gears and shift speed to cope with the M5's powerband, then please let BMW know and they might make you one.

Damn the manual....bring on the automatic!!!!
If you don't mind capping the crank speed at around 7,000 and don't mind less than 400 bhp, sure :)

[andy_thomas]

Also the M6 is a high reving V10. With an automatic even on steptronic mode, the driver wont be able to reach the High Rpms that the car was meant to excell in.
Indeed. The limiting factor would be the gearbox innards so you'd have to have your 8,500 rpm-capable engine limited to 7.something. I can't actually think of any automatic which revs that high; the high-test Honda VTECs aren't available with auto; only the lower-tune RX-8 has an auto option. The only ones I can think of which compare are automatic Porsche 911s (997); but even they don't come close to the M5's max crank speed, topping out over 1,000 rpm lower.

Of older performance automatics with revvy engines, the NSX's automatic (shudder) had a detuned engine; the 456GTA similarly, and the Merc 190 Cosworth featured a lower redline when a four-speed slushie was specified. So the odds of an automatc M5/6 will shorten only when BMW switches to forced induction and a good ole single TB, or ZF et al figure it out. Whichever comes first...

[hmr]

... only the lower-tune RX-8 has an auto option...

I understand the RX-8 slushie has a detuned engine losing some 40 hp or so, IIRC.

Edit: :doh:, sorry, redundant post. You did say "lower-tune".

[Stuka]

I understand the RX-8 slushie has a detuned engine losing some 40 hp or so, IIRC.

Pay more for less HP, what a bargain. :tsk:

Are people really that uncoordinated to perform a simple task of driving manual gearbox equipped cars? :confused:

I can name over 10 people I know who drive in LA traffic in stick shift cars, it is way nicer to drive them in traffic than auto, because YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE YOUR DAMN FOOT ON THE BRAKES THE ENTIRE F'ING TIME. :mad:

[CenterBmw]

"Pay more for less HP, what a bargain."

the alpina i believe was about 136k vs. the Z8's 128k price tag. Also the alpina had a slushy with something like 386 hp. more money for less hp. what ever.

[RONAN]

I was lucky enough to be in the Paddock Club and the private Williams-BMW suite at the Canadian Gran Prix recently. I had conversations with Mark Webber,Hans Stuck, and Mario Thiessen.

(1) None of them had any enthusiasm for the standard shift.

(2) Dr Thiessen did not seem to be too sure about a manual being ultimately available although he is purely on the F1 side.

(3) Mark Webber said that the car is staggeringly fast and very much likes the SMG. He did day it was a bit clunky in traffic at low speeds, but was clearly very enthusiastic about SMG. He also said that you have to be very careful with it becase the car is going faster than you think at times ,and you have to be alert. He has an M5 on order.

(4) Hans Stuck was one of the greatest BMW sports car drivers ever in his day, and had extensively driven the M6 on the Nordschleife.He felt that he could have won Le Mans in this car had it been available ten years ago. He loves the M6.

Its interesting that three people who are in the know and who could doubtlessly drive rings around somebody of my competent but not competitive ability were so clearly behind the SMG option.
It changed my opinion. I am going SMG.

[MaxTimeOff]

"None of them had any enthusiasm for the standard shift."

"Dr Thiessen did not seem to be too sure about a manual being ultimately available although he is purely on the F1 side."

Being the starter of this train wreck, I would like to say that out of the three, SMG, Auto, and Manual, I would like SMG most in the M6. I'll be very very happy with it I'm sure. This thread was originally started based on my belief that there would be a large market for an auto in the M6. I still think that is true, for better or worse.

Based on lots of things including the quotes above, an auto is as likely to be offered in future M products as a manual, which is to say, not very likely. If this iteration of the M6 is ultimately available with a manual here in the States I think it will be the last. So rowers and heel toers get 'em while you can, if you can....The sky is darkening and soon the dinosaur will be dead! :)

[shockwave]

forgive me but was reading your post on this matter but also consider this is intended to be a sports car and not a gt cruiser.when people go and a an m series car would be the same as people going to get a nsx or rx-7 and suprai not the 840.
but you say you want an m6 but prefer an auto wher ethis was intended to be a sports car not a luxury car and for you to me the smg sounds perfect.and yes the american market is overwhelmed with auto trannys.
now with a realalistic standpoint if bmw spends thousands of dollars on r&d for there m cars to appeal to the driver that wants speed go for a manual which from my understanding an smg is essintully a clutchless manual with an automatic mode and i think this is smart on bmw's part to appeal to all drivers.so to sum it up in liamends terms an m6 is a more powerful 645 with smg just like an m3 is a supped up version of a 330 so to me this thread is pointless as all is selp explantory.

so if anyone wants a m6 with auto and want to cruise get a 645 but if you want the car for power get a manual(if avilable) m6 where the smg seems to appeal to both(with minor adjustments from the driver)

but with me personally i prefer a manual because i am more in control of the car and like the sense of shifting gears constanly and always feel like i am missing somthing driveing in my gf's auto.

[gbelton]

I had to respond after all the thread reading! These Guys are all on point! I dirve a 645Cic SMG with HUD and I beleive it is the best Clucth-less Manual I have ever driven.

Next....

[hmr]

... I can't actually think of any automatic which revs that high...

Case in point:

Alpina B5, ~6500 redline, slushbox
M5, >8K redline, SMG

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104452

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53692&stc=1