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-   -   135 vs EVO (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276734)

superstock 04-09-2008 09:31 AM

135 vs EVO
 
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._mr_comparison

Motortrend did a bit of a comparision and for anyone still wondering how good of a track car the 135 is take a look.

The answer? Not good. 10 seconds on a little over a 2 mile course is embarrasing. Not that the 135 is slow but the EVO is otherworldly.

The one thing i also don't agree with is who they compare to the 135. Car magazine are comparing base prices but nearly every real world car is about 3-5k cheaper than a similarly equipped 135. I think lots of people will cross shop the G37 vs the 135 since they are very close in price and power yet Motortrend dismissed that comparison.

anyway, it is an interesting read and the BMW bias is apparent since they chose the slower, 8k more expensive car.

Vornado 04-09-2008 09:39 AM

First of all, Motortrend is nothing but a bunch of tools. Second, I wouldn't expect a car that is made as a road car to perform well at the track. That's what ///M cars are for. The EVO is more of a track car that can be driven on the road. The 135i is more of a road car that can be driven on the track. They are both great cars that appeal to pretty wide variety of people. If money were a factor, I'd probably get the EVO. If it wasn't my money, I'd get a 335i coupe, just because it has that "it" factor.

Chris90 04-09-2008 11:00 AM

Laps times don't necessarily equal good track car. A good track car should be involving, challenging but not punishing, and give you a chance to develop your skills.

A car like the EVO is going to drive itself, which is not what many people want in a track car.

I dunno where the 135i fits in this equation, I'm just making the point.

superstock 04-09-2008 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris90 (Post 3162403)
Laps times don't necessarily equal good track car. A good track car should be involving, challenging but not punishing, and give you a chance to develop your skills.

A car like the EVO is going to drive itself, which is not what many people want in a track car.

I dunno where the 135i fits in this equation, I'm just making the point.

By that rational the best track car would a 1992 Cavalier with two busted shocks and a flat tire. That would definitely be challenging!!

The EVO won't "drive itself" but all of the technology will help prevent you from putting it into a wall prematurely. The powerful but less advanced 135 with an open diff can more easily get out of hand and end up wrecked or damaged.

At the end of the tracking day do you want to pass people or be passed? How can anyone make a logical arguement that the 135 is a better track car?? Better car? Perhaps. Better track weapon? Not even close.

Though if track cars are your thing then BMW is the wrong place to look and has been since the debut of the E46 M3. Further from sport and closer to luxury with every model. Look at the E9X 3 series!!

whitewagon 04-09-2008 02:01 PM

[QUOTE=superstock;3162110]http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._mr_comparison

The answer? Not good. 10 seconds on a little over a 2 mile course is embarrasing. Not that the 135 is slow but the EVO is otherworldly.

QUOTE]

:dunno:

The article says 3.42 seconds, on page 3 and on the track diagram, on a 2.75 mile track. The last page with the chart has a typo on it.

superstock 04-09-2008 02:13 PM

[QUOTE=whitewagon;3163031]
Quote:

Originally Posted by superstock (Post 3162110)
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._mr_comparison

The answer? Not good. 10 seconds on a little over a 2 mile course is embarrasing. Not that the 135 is slow but the EVO is otherworldly.

QUOTE]

:dunno:

The article says 3.42 seconds, on page 3 and on the track diagram, on a 2.75 mile track. The last page with the chart has a typo on it.

They may have had a typo on the version I read. It mentioned a 10 second differential in the article that i read this morning.

While 10 seconds is embarrasing the 3.42 seconds is still a very very big gap of about 300 feet at an average of 60 miles per hour. Every 50 laps the EVO is going to lap you. Even in a 10 lap race you are going to be nearly a half MILE behind the EVO. How is that competitive??

RedBread 04-09-2008 02:24 PM

[QUOTE=superstock;3163067]
Quote:

Originally Posted by whitewagon (Post 3163031)

They may have had a typo on the version I read. It mentioned a 10 second differential in the article that i read this morning.

While 10 seconds is embarrasing the 3.42 seconds is still a very very big gap of about 300 feet at an average of 60 miles per hour. Every 50 laps the EVO is going to lap you. Even in a 10 lap race you are going to be nearly a half MILE behind the EVO. How is that competitive??

Ask Hamilton, the Ferraris lapped him at Bahrain quicker than that, in a very competitive car. Remove the run flats from the 135i and I bet it's not a big difference, if any. If all you want at the roughly $40k price point is lap times, both cars will be punished by a stock C6 Corvette, which is available after discounts for about the same price as a normally optioned 135i, so just buy one of those.

Chris90 04-09-2008 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superstock (Post 3162941)
By that rational the best track car would a 1992 Cavalier with two busted shocks and a flat tire. That would definitely be challenging!!

The EVO won't "drive itself" but all of the technology will help prevent you from putting it into a wall prematurely. The powerful but less advanced 135 with an open diff can more easily get out of hand and end up wrecked or damaged.

At the end of the tracking day do you want to pass people or be passed? How can anyone make a logical arguement that the 135 is a better track car?? Better car? Perhaps. Better track weapon? Not even close.

Though if track cars are your thing then BMW is the wrong place to look and has been since the debut of the E46 M3. Further from sport and closer to luxury with every model. Look at the E9X 3 series!!

'92 Cavalier won't be involving. Track junkies prefer Miatas, E30 BMWs etc. I have a buddy who used to go with us to track days, he'd get passed a lot in his Miata, and it never bothered him - he won some national championship back in Japan driving an old rear-drive Alfa Romeo. We went gokarting with him a few times and he smoked everyone.

The EVO is what, 3600 lbs? A track car that ain't.

Sgt Blamo 04-09-2008 03:08 PM

As a current Evo owner, I would have to agree with "Superstock"s comment. While I have yet to drive the new Evo, my 05 is a 3156 lb track terror that has trounced countless decked out dedicated track cars, I'm talking ferrari challenge, Z0-6's, etc,etc. My friends track Evo (gutted down to 2600 lbs. w/ full cage, KW full race suspension, Alcon 6 piston frnt brakes & 315/40/18's on all four corners) can pas a radical in the corners on Homestead Raceway, there hasn't been a car on the track yet that could out perform it. So saying that the Evo isn't a track car is way off. In addition, the car doesn't "drive itself", it just allows you to start having fun much sooner, as it is very easy to figure out.
I'm so impressed with my wifes 335i sedan that I'm looking at selling my Evo (investing that money)& getting a 135 so I can have a DD & a mild track car. I figure it ought to be a blast with a nice set of wheels & tires, chip, exhaust & intake, maybe a set of H&R springs. But of course I'll have to test drive one 1st!
BTW,
My friend was talking with a guy up in SC who test drives for BMW on thier tracks, he said that he turned in faster lap times with the stock 135 than the stock M-3 and that it was more fun too.

superstock 04-09-2008 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris90 (Post 3163116)
'92 Cavalier won't be involving. Track junkies prefer Miatas, E30 BMWs etc. I have a buddy who used to go with us to track days, he'd get passed a lot in his Miata, and it never bothered him - he won some national championship back in Japan driving an old rear-drive Alfa Romeo. We went gokarting with him a few times and he smoked everyone.

The EVO is what, 3600 lbs? A track car that ain't.

I completely agree with the Miata comment, then can be very competent track cars with very little money. You can make a competitive Miata for roughly 1/3 the price of a 135. Will it be faster? No. But you can total it three times before it costs as much as the 1 series. There is a reason most Ferraris drivers are slow on the track. The thought of destroying a 200K car ups the pucker factor WAY up.

Someone driving a miata like they stole it will be just as fast than someone in a 135 trying to prevent damage. And they will have more fun.

Sgt Blamo 04-09-2008 07:09 PM

You are absolutely right, but a Miata sucks as a DD, I had one. Whereas the 135 would make a very nice DD.

redadair 04-10-2008 12:05 PM

Motor Trend gave the 135i the First place win in this compo. Even though the EVO did better on the track.

The point is that with stiff springs and larger sways the track times can be greatly improved, however with the loss of the DD benefits of the 135i. Simply put the EVO comes with a more track ready setup than the 135i does, but who tracks their cars every day? Sorry but 5 to 10 track days a year do not justify the rough ride of a dedicated track car for a DD.

I setup my 05 Subaru STI as a track car, but still drove as a DD. When I sold the car I removed all of my mods, springs, HUGE sways ect. and was very pleasantly surprised how much better the car felt in stock setup as a daily driver. The main reason I sold my STI was because of the back busting ride every day, which I made much worse by moding the car for the track. Even though I only drove about 10 times a year on the track.

I will never do this again. If I choose to track a car again it will be a dedicated track car only, never a DD setup for the track. IMHO BMW's are still the best cars at both aspects, road and track, DD.

Red

superstock 04-10-2008 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgt Blamo (Post 3163850)
You are absolutely right, but a Miata sucks as a DD, I had one. Whereas the 135 would make a very nice DD.

So did i and they are great. The new ones are infinitely better than the earlier NA and NB models built up to 2005. And they make much better track cars than the 135. They are 900lbs lighter!!! Also cheap to buy, fix, insure and modify. The BMW is cheap to do nothing.

They are still best as secondary cars though. I have track car and DD car. I have found that if you try to do both with one car you are going to end up with unacceptable sacrifices in both. You can't have a true jack of all trades. And that is my point about why the 135 is an overly expensive toy.

It isn't good on the track because of weight and open differential and it isn't good on the street because of its size constraints. BMW wanted to make a more "track-ready" car than the 335 but since they borrowed so extensively the weight is still way too high and they didn't truly improve on the handling. They spent the money on marketting instead of the car.

If I was looking for a DD driver i would get the 328 or 335. If I was looking for a BMW track car I would get an older E36 M3 coupe for around 14k and gut it. It would be much better on the track than a DD 135 and I wouldn't worry obsessively about putting it into the wall because I still have my DD.

Chris90 04-10-2008 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superstock (Post 3166320)
If I was looking for a DD driver i would get the 328 or 335. If I was looking for a BMW track car I would get an older E36 M3 coupe for around 14k and gut it. It would be much better on the track than a DD 135 and I wouldn't worry obsessively about putting it into the wall because I still have my DD.

I think the 135i/128i when 3-4 years old, will be sought after as a track car - cause you just put wider front tires and an LSD in it, and you've got a nice track car.

There are used cars that serve this (DD + track car) purpose better, but not many new ones.

BlackJetE90 04-10-2008 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superstock (Post 3162110)
Motortrend did a bit of a comparision and for anyone still wondering how good of a track car the 135 is take a look.

The answer? Not good. 10 seconds on a little over a 2 mile course is embarrasing. Not that the 135 is slow but the EVO is otherworldly.


Chris it is definitely a typo. Did you see page 3 and the tech sheet?

Tech Sheet:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/.../photo_12.html

135i - 156.34 3.42 sec back

Evo X - 152.92

Damn good for a car that is not soley designed around performance, that is wearing runflats, doesn't have a sophisticated AWD system.


For a better comparison.

M3 - 154.2

135i only 2.14 seconds back of the new M3, that cost almost twice as much.



Side note: You seem to be interested in tracking cars. You might want to follow this story.
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6629

brkf 04-10-2008 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superstock (Post 3162941)

At the end of the tracking day do you want to pass people or be passed? How can anyone make a logical arguement that the 135 is a better track car?? Better car?

At the end of the day I'd rather be a better driver. Who i passed isn't important. That I hit the apex perfectly for an entire lap...that'd be the best outcome of a track day.

Andrew*Debbie 04-11-2008 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgt Blamo (Post 3163850)
You are absolutely right, but a Miata sucks as a DD,


Ouch. We like ours. It was our only car from June 2007 until the X3 redelivery in November 2007.



=============

This is my favorite quote:

Quote:

"The Evo is just like a 135i with less sound-deadening material and its suspension completely welded together."

And a few comments...


If lap time is important to you, the 135i isn't the car for you. There are other options if you want a factory ready track car.

I wonder if you gave 2 teams each $4000 to mod a 135i and an EVO, which would have the faster lap times


Mototrend used the press fleet car BMW NA lent them. Choose the options carefully and a 135i wouldn't be $8000 more than the EVO. The writers made that point in the article.

135i with Sport Package as the only option is $36,675. That is about $2000 less that the EVO as tested.

superstock 04-11-2008 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew*Debbie (Post 3168268)
I wonder if you gave 2 teams each $4000 to mod a 135i and an EVO, which would have the faster lap times

The EVO. Hands down. The BMW just can't properly put down power on the track to compete with the more highly advanced EVO. If you spent the 4k and gave it the LSD it needs the EVO driver would be able to spend his money on suspension and engine mods. If anything the gap would widen after 4k in mods.

RedBread 04-11-2008 09:45 AM

For track purposes, you just can't discount that the EVO comes stock with three limited slip diffs, front, center and rear, with a computer controlling output to all three very quickly. The 135i, well it comes with zero. BMW's aren't good track cars, at least when compared to EVO's, STi's, Porsche's and Vette's, which all come significantly better prepared for track use. They are more comfortable and better suited for daily driver duty and occassional track day use though.

BlackJetE90 04-11-2008 06:12 PM

The EVO bested the new M3 in lap time.

The EVO is quick as hell, period.

Motor Trend
2.74 mile Reno Fernley Racway Lap Times.

Evo X - 152.92

M3 - 154.2


135i - 156.34




Next thread by superstock.

Sgt Blamo 04-11-2008 09:37 PM

For shear driving excitement, Evo owns any BMW, period! Back in the day of a mild re-flash and a few supporting mods, I would eat E-46 M-3's like they were stale toast, I would play with them and then watch them almost spin out (one poor arrogant soul just couldn't get it in his thick head and ended up spinning off the track and kissing the tires @ Moroso Motor Speedway), so I wouldn't bother comparing them, as they're two totally different vehicles. Ones designed with beauty, refinement & pleasure, the other is aggressive road hugging, track dominating excitement, take your pick!

Sgt Blamo 04-11-2008 10:06 PM

1 Attachment(s)
BTW,
Here's my most recent dyno pull. Tha't @ 21 psi on 93 oct, we could get about another 80-95 WHP using 110-112 race fuel @ 28-29psi. The torque is almost identical except that it comes in sooner @ about 3500 rpms.

Synaps3 04-13-2008 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgt Blamo (Post 3170211)
For shear driving excitement, Evo owns any BMW, period! Back in the day of a mild re-flash and a few supporting mods, I would eat E-46 M-3's like they were stale toast, I would play with them and then watch them almost spin out (one poor arrogant soul just couldn't get it in his thick head and ended up spinning off the track and kissing the tires @ Moroso Motor Speedway), so I wouldn't bother comparing them, as they're two totally different vehicles. Ones designed with beauty, refinement & pleasure, the other is aggressive road hugging, track dominating excitement, take your pick!

Sooo....you drive an evo, you love the EVO, you smoke BMWs on the track....

What are you doing posting on bimmerfest? Isnt there an evofest.com or something?

Andrew*Debbie 04-13-2008 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synaps3 (Post 3173527)
Sooo....you drive an evo, you love the EVO, you smoke BMWs on the track....

What are you doing posting on bimmerfest? Isnt there an evofest.com or something?


I value his input. Makes for much more interesting discussion.


We own an X3 and a Miata. Should I stop posting in this thread?

InsaneSkippy 04-13-2008 06:06 PM

Superstock, I don't think I've seen you post one positive thing on the 135i. It seems like you're just browsing the 1 Series forum to post negative threads. I'm not sure if it's intentional on your part or not but it seems a bit odd.


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