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-   -   Do you really save $$ on gas with diesel? (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348555)

dch8008 02-25-2009 12:34 PM

Do you really save $$ on gas with diesel?
 
Here in CA diesel costs 20 cents more per gallon then premium unleaded. If you compare the annual fuel costs of the standard 3.0 vs. 35d are they about even since the diesel has better mpg? Or does the price difference give the 3.0 the edge?

ncsucarjock88 02-25-2009 02:12 PM

Simple math.

15,000 miles a year.

20mpg for the 3.0 avg; 750 gallons x 2.00 = $1500

24mpg for the 3.0D - avg; 625 gallons x 2.20 = $1375

But...the Diesel also gets to 60 in 7.2 seconds, versus the gassers 8 seconds...

and has more torque, and I suspect though i've not driven one, better performance around town...

Now...let's assume you drive like me:

30k miles a year, with a lead foot. I average 14mpg out of the 4.4i I have, in town, and 19 on the highway. So, overall a 17.5 mpg. Past experience has proven that even with a smaller engine, I"ll get very similar fuel economy, because i'm giving it the boot all the time...whereas, the V8 has enough power that I'm not *always* dogging it, just most of the time.

I'd expect real world mileage of the diesel for me to be about 22mpg or so. Highway would be more, in town a little less, but 22mpg is probably a good figure.

17.5mpg (V8) at 30,000 miles/year = 1714 gallons x 2.00 = 3428 At $5/gallon its 8570 for the gasser

22mpg (diesel) at 30,000 miles/year = 1364 gallons x 2.20 = 3000. at $5.20/gallon is 7093 for the diesel

But...the new diesels qualify for a tax rebate of $1800.

So...yes...the diesel will probably save you money, especially over the long haul and if you do a lot of driving. For me, the extra mid-range torque would negate the need for a thirstier V8, with little loss of overall performance. The tax credit is nice. And when fuel goes back up, the difference will increase dramatically.

Why don't I have one? Can you see putting 30k on a new car in the first year? The depreciation would kill me. I'm looking forward to a couple years from now, when the diesels are available as CPO vehicle, and I'm ready to upgrade from my '04 4.4i.

AzNMpower32 02-25-2009 05:16 PM

You can look at the mathematics of it as demonstrated above.

There are simple advantages of diesel. You get substantially longer range between fillups. The midrange torque is unparalleled by any petrol from BMW, including the M5. It has 580Nm of torque versus the V10's 520Nm. This makes the vehicle extremely flexible in any situation. You are being "green" for the environment because it emits less CO² than any other X5 model (okay, the xDrive30d in the EU emits 3 g/km less, big deal). In Virginia, diesel is usually a modest $0,08/litre more expensive, but I have seen places where it is almost on par with premium petrol.

Honestly, I don't understand why anyone gets the 3.0si model, maybe someone can explain this to me. Just my €0,02.

Craig B 02-25-2009 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzNMpower32 (Post 3952149)
You can look at the mathematics of it as demonstrated above.

There are simple advantages of diesel. You get substantially longer range between fillups. The midrange torque is unparalleled by any petrol from BMW, including the M5. It has 580Nm of torque versus the V10's 520Nm. This makes the vehicle extremely flexible in any situation. You are being "green" for the environment because it emits less CO² than any other X5 model (okay, the xDrive30d in the EU emits 3 g/km less, big deal).

Honestly, I don't understand why anyone gets the 3.0si model, maybe someone can explain this to me. Just my €0,02.


I waited two years for the diesel. The gas 3.0 didn't have enough power and the 4.8 uses too much fuel.

Craig

dcharnet 02-25-2009 06:04 PM

When gas was $4 plus last summer, diesel was about $0.75 per gallon more expensive in the midwest. That relationship is wildly unpredictable. Also, there is the extra up-front cost of the diesel motor after the tax credit--what, $3,000 net? If you ignore the discounted value carry-forward (when resold, the diesel will return some if not all of the extra cost, but you are deprived of that value in the interim), it could take years/ many thousands of miles to break even. The BMW 6 is a great motor generally and moves the X5 well, at least in manual. I think there is still a market for the 6. When my 08 3.0 is ready to be traded or sold, I will look at the diesel, but it is not clear that I would get one. I would never get an 8. Further, I am not a soccer mom.

spyderdoc 02-25-2009 10:51 PM

Today at my local San Jose Gas station, I was elated to see that diesel was $0.05 cheaper than premium...Made my day, so I topped off my tank.

hazbeen 02-26-2009 01:45 PM

SoCal diesel prices waaaay down
 
I saw today in LaQuinta at a Chevron on Hwy111 that diesel was $2.13 a gallon (may have been $2.18...I was driving by) which was lower than regular unleaded, unleaded plus AND premium. I think Premium was $2.39, plus was $2.29 and regular $2.19.

At least this week, everyone who runs the approximate breakeven point for making a diesel pay off will have a different outcome.

Peace

mynsx 02-27-2009 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzNMpower32 (Post 3952149)
You can look at the mathematics of it as demonstrated above.

There are simple advantages of diesel. You get substantially longer range between fillups. The midrange torque is unparalleled by any petrol from BMW, including the M5. It has 580Nm of torque versus the V10's 520Nm. This makes the vehicle extremely flexible in any situation. You are being "green" for the environment because it emits less CO² than any other X5 model (okay, the xDrive30d in the EU emits 3 g/km less, big deal). In Virginia, diesel is usually a modest $0,08/litre more expensive, but I have seen places where it is almost on par with premium petrol.

Honestly, I don't understand why anyone gets the 3.0si model, maybe someone can explain this to me. Just my €0,02.

question....why are you using EUR and litre/KM to explain cost in the US? Are you really from Virginia?

Diesel prices in the US going forward will only get higher against regular gasoline as demonstrated this past summer. If and when the economy picks up, the spread is going to get bigger. Not sure if anyone should be looking at MPG's to decide whether or not you should be getting a diesel engine. If anyone is worried about the operating cost...get a hyundai.

AndreyATC 02-27-2009 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mynsx (Post 3957044)
If and when the economy picks up, the spread is going to get bigger.

What is your conclusion based of?
Are you saying when prices at the pump go up the difference between premium and diesel will increase?
1st, i doubt it'll be tha case
2nd, when prices are higher for both gas and diesel, it will still be around the same ratio or less (percent wise)
So if the difference stays, lets say $0.40, then your savings for driving diesel are much more

P.S. My guess is that we will be paying for diesel same or less than premium in the future, not more

mynsx 02-27-2009 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndreyATC (Post 3957618)
What is your conclusion based of?
Are you saying when prices at the pump go up the difference between premium and diesel will increase?
1st, i doubt it'll be tha case
2nd, when prices are higher for both gas and diesel, it will still be around the same ratio or less (percent wise)
So if the difference stays, lets say $0.40, then your savings for driving diesel are much more

P.S. My guess is that we will be paying for diesel same or less than premium in the future, not more

My conclusion is based on what happened last year. Prices between the two will increase as demonstrated this past summer. The reason why all prices are down is due to this ****ty global economy. China was one of the biggest consumers of diesel fuel. They've cut back dramatically. If and when the global economy picks up, the spread between the two will increase again.

and the spread as price increases will not be $0.40 per gallon. If the percentage stays the same, the actual $ amount increases negating any savings.

But again, one shouldn't be considering diesel or non diesel engine based on how much savings they can get from their X5's. If so, they should be getting a Hyundai.

AndreyATC 02-27-2009 12:12 PM

Here is the little curve ball on the diesel speculation
We might start getting more demand for diesel in US and the refineries will be producing more of it, hense, the price likely to be lower than 93
Regarding China:
Well, they needed a lot of diesel to power their electric generators for Olympic games
They did cut back a lot and i'm sure they wont need it as much in the near future

For your "Hyundai" comment:
It will not just save you money, it'll give you better performing car that takes less trips to gas stations while throwing less carbon into the air
Isnt it a nice feeling?

P.S. Oh, try towing with 3.0, definetely not as good as with 35D

philippek 02-27-2009 12:21 PM

The fuel and cost savings from owning a diesel will be small. When you look at it as a percentage of acquisition cost, almost trivial. I've heard some stories that this will change as our involvement in 3 wars diminishes--not sure how much I believe that.

Diesel vehicles are about much more than cost savings. Perhaps the biggest reason we have them in North America at all is because consumers wanted a choice. Diesels will not be a profitable segment in the near term, or possibly even in the medium term.

Diesels do provide a good interim step as the world weans itself away from fossil fuels. And in a world where governments are beginning to legislate how efficient passenger vehicles have to be, diesels serve a compelling purpose for manufacturers looking to increase their corporate fuel economy averages.

dcharnet 02-27-2009 09:24 PM

The 3.0 in sport mode tows pretty well. I tow a race car in a covered trailer to races around the Midwest, two motorcycles in the same trailer out west, and also a sailboat on a dual axle trailer. The X5 does a better job at that than my old Jeep Grand Cherokee with the small 8. The sport mode moves the engine into a higher torque range across the gear spectrum. The standard automatic shift points are set for good CAFE numbers. But, yes, of course, the diesel will do that "better." The point is that the 3.0 is pretty good.

jetstream23 02-28-2009 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philippek (Post 3958189)
The fuel and cost savings from owning a diesel will be small. When you look at it as a percentage of acquisition cost, almost trivial. I've heard some stories that this will change as our involvement in 3 wars diminishes--not sure how much I believe that.

I still think that an $1,800 tax credit and $500-1000 per year (basically a car payment) in gas savings can be significant. When you combine that with getting a vehicle almost as powerful as the 4.8 for about $5K cheaper, I think the cost-benefit equation is a no-brainer. Am I missing something?

Quote:

Originally Posted by philippek (Post 3958189)
Diesel vehicles are about much more than cost savings. Perhaps the biggest reason we have them in North America at all is because consumers wanted a choice. Diesels will not be a profitable segment in the near term, or possibly even in the medium term.

What does this mean? Not profitable for dealers? No offense, but why would consumers really care about that? And why do you think they'll be less profitable than other vehicles?

Quote:

Originally Posted by philippek (Post 3958189)
Diesels do provide a good interim step as the world weans itself away from fossil fuels. And in a world where governments are beginning to legislate how efficient passenger vehicles have to be, diesels serve a compelling purpose for manufacturers looking to increase their corporate fuel economy averages.


mynsx 03-02-2009 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndreyATC (Post 3958158)
Here is the little curve ball on the diesel speculation
We might start getting more demand for diesel in US and the refineries will be producing more of it, hense, the price likely to be lower than 93
Regarding China:
Well, they needed a lot of diesel to power their electric generators for Olympic games
They did cut back a lot and i'm sure they wont need it as much in the near future

For your "Hyundai" comment:
It will not just save you money, it'll give you better performing car that takes less trips to gas stations while throwing less carbon into the air
Isnt it a nice feeling?

P.S. Oh, try towing with 3.0, definetely not as good as with 35D


LOL. towing capacity and other reasons was what I was alluding to about getting a diesel engine and not mgp's and if somone was worried about the cost of gas...don't get a SUV.

Craig B 03-02-2009 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetstream23 (Post 3961652)
I still think that an $1,800 tax credit and $500-1000 per year (basically a car payment) in gas savings can be significant. When you combine that with getting a vehicle almost as powerful as the 4.8 for about $5K cheaper, I think the cost-benefit equation is a no-brainer. Am I missing something?



What does this mean? Not profitable for dealers? No offense, but why would consumers really care about that? And why do you think they'll be less profitable than other vehicles?


The 4.8 comes with a lot of options standard that are add on's for the diesel and 3.0i.

The dealers have to send techs for training and purchase tools to work on the diesels. They also have to stock oil and other parts for the diesels as well...

Craig

UncleJ 03-14-2009 09:23 AM

Diesel is cheaper than regular gas! For the first time in a great while I noticed on a Union Station price board they were selling diesel for less than gas. The cost was $2.31 for diesel and $2.39 for regular. If this trend continues it will make even more sense to get a diesel. Since I currently do not have a diesel but am looking at a Jetta Sportwagon (45 mpg) as a possible replacement for my X3, I have been watching the prices. Usually they have been around the cost of premium, but lately have been less and now are the lowest I have seen. This is in the Sunnyvale California area at the station on Fremont and Highway 9 (DeAnza Blvd.).

Craig B 03-14-2009 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UncleJ (Post 4001708)
Diesel is cheaper than regular gas! For the first time in a great while I noticed on a Union Station price board they were selling diesel for less than gas. The cost was $2.31 for diesel and $2.39 for regular. If this trend continues it will make even more sense to get a diesel. Since I currently do not have a diesel but am looking at a Jetta Sportwagon (45 mpg) as a possible replacement for my X3, I have been watching the prices. Usually they have been around the cost of premium, but lately have been less and now are the lowest I have seen. This is in the Sunnyvale California area at the station on Fremont and Highway 9 (DeAnza Blvd.).


Diesel here is the same price as regular unleaded 1.899

Craig

nekountze 03-15-2009 05:02 PM

Lowest diesel price here in Omaha is now $1.85
 
Getting 20.5 mpg in town, 26 mpg highway driving my X5d. I previously owned a 2001 X5 3.0i and the power was much less - terrible acceleration compared to the diesel. There is no comparison of the 6 gas vs 6 diesel IMHO. I drove the X5 V8 at the BMW Performance center in SC and I must say the diesel is every bit if not more powerful.

I would assume towing would be a hassle and with constant downshifts on hills with the 3.0i, but effortless with the 3.0d.
:thumbup:

lp2009 08-01-2009 08:45 PM

Do you get the 1800 tax break if you lease the diesel? (does the dealer)

cablue 08-01-2009 09:28 PM

Diesel in my area, Sierra foothills, near Sacramento is .20/gal. less than premium. Diesel is the only way I'd get an X5. I'm looking at maybe ordering one within a week or so. Heard conflicting info on whether I can get the $4500 discount if getting car after 8/31 by ordering. Any input? Thanks!

ard 08-01-2009 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cablue (Post 4397494)
Diesel in my area, Sierra foothills, near Sacramento is .20/gal. less than premium. Diesel is the only way I'd get an X5. I'm looking at maybe ordering one within a week or so. Heard conflicting info on whether I can get the $4500 discount if getting car after 8/31 by ordering. Any input? Thanks!


Funny, that's how I describe my location too.

Have you ordered yet? There really isn't much time between 8/31 and the 2010 arrivals. Indeed, I had heard that 'early to mid August' is when they start 2010 orders!

Mine is inbound, should arrive within a week or two. Initially the dealer was doubtful it would make the 8/31 cutoff. They were able to convert one of their 'dealer stock' orders to mine. It was ordered on July 8, and was out of manufacturing on 7/23!!!

Initially, my plan was to just see what transpired- if it missed the 8/31 day, and they wanted $4500, I would have said "Oh? Really? I've decided I want a 2010, lets order THAT instead!" No need for that now....

I've got to think that BMW would be insane to effectively raise the prices on the last month of the 2009 MY by $4500. One might envision even more trunk money. The other possibility is killer lease terms to let dealers move this last bunch...

If you want to compare notes on dealers, PM me we can chat...

GL

A

PS Fuel cost is really low on my list- I am more 'irritated' by low mileage,plus the torque on the diesel is amazing- wonderful driveability.

ard 08-01-2009 10:53 PM

I forgot to add... if they can convert one of their next cars to your specs, they can make it a Spartanburg PCD delivery. It would likely be ready Sept 6-9. BUT- you actually "buy" the car a week earlier at the dealer in CA. So it would technically be sold prior to 8/31. That was my other back up....

:)

A

ct545i 08-02-2009 03:51 AM

I'm probably one of very few, if not the only one, to like the BMW diesel engine enough to own both x5 35d and 335d. I've had the 335d since early March (fabulous vehicle) and I just traded my wife's 07 Volvo XC90 3.2 for a demo X5 35d with only 26 miles. I got a very fair value for the XC90 and the X5 for $7k under invoice (yes, $7k under invoice! - only because the car was officially put in service back in Feb. when there was a special demo program giving $2.5k to dealer) - I could not resist that. Have I mentioned that I love the BMW bi-turbo diesel engine?...:)

UncleJ 08-02-2009 07:34 AM

Diesel is still running cheaper than regular in the South Bay Area near San Jose. You have to watch your prices though, I saw a shell station with prices HIGHER than premium while a Chevron station a block away had the price lower than regular.


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