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-   -   The car wants to go while the brake is pressed. (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=446632)

gepardson 04-06-2010 12:59 PM

The car wants to go while the brake is pressed.
 
Hi,

I'm new to the forum and I have a weird problem which I'm not even sure how to search the archive for, therefore, if this was answered before, please be patient and point me to the right post.

I am the owner of a BMW X3, 2008 model with Automatic Transmission. I am chasing this issue with the local (Dubai) dealer and they cant's seam to figure out what is wrong with the car.

The fault manifests itself occasionally (more and more often after they service it) but it's the 4th or 5th time I am taking it for repair with the same fault and they cannot find the fault.

When I park, specially in reverse parking, while the steering is fully right (or left) and switching from Drive to Neutral and then Reverse, with the brake pressed, the car "wants to go". Obviously the brake prevents it from going so it gives up for a fraction of a second and then it wants to go again. It's doing this repeatedly resulting in the car shaking heavily and it ends with either the engine dieing or the symphtome gradually disappears and the car behaves normally again so that I can continue the parking maneuver.

The dealer said they can not find anything in the logs. So far they have changed the Mecatronic Unit as well as some transmission control module (?).

Lately they are saying that they are involving BMW and that they found out there is another car with similar reported fault in Bahrain.

I am now waiting to get a loaner so that I can take it back for service for the 5th time probably for the same problem in one year (you can imagine my disappointment). The car is still under warranty which expires in September and I'm afraid they will not be able to fix it before warranty runs out, not to mention the headache taking the car in for service so often so any help or suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance !

Kind regards,
Gep.

Supercourse 04-06-2010 02:19 PM

The car wants to go while the brake is pressed.

I thought I had got onto a Toyota forum by mistake!

But it may be a drive-by-wire type of issue.

The warranty running out should not be a concern - within warranty they are working on the problem, and have tried at least 2 unsuccessful fixes (ECU and Transmission computer).

So it doesn't matter if the warranty runs out before the correct fix is arrived at - it will still be fully covered.

Haven't seen anything similar reported here, so can't offer any useful suggestion.

Hopefully the Regional BMW people or HQ will come up with something soon.

AzNMpower32 04-06-2010 07:16 PM

Sorry, no clue. Does it only happen when the steering is turned? Generally it's not good to hold the power steering at the bumpstop for extended times since it puts strain on various drivetrain parts but if it occurs even when the steering angle isn't as severe, it is likely another problem.

How quickly do you shift from D to R? Does the shaking only occur once the transmission lever is in R? I also assume that the vehicle is completely stationary before changing gears, right?

madurodave 04-06-2010 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supercourse (Post 5081284)
The car wants to go while the brake is pressed.

I thought I had got onto a Toyota forum by mistake!

I thought the same thing.

Perhaps Toyota began making transmissions for GM?:rofl:

ANyway, hopefully they figure it out. Let us know the outcome.

This is the firat I have seen on this for BMW.

LvdB 04-07-2010 01:32 AM

I'm just thinking in general here. Are there not different engine idle speed settings and/or automatic throttle inputs for the different gear positions (for example, D or R might have a different setup compared to N, or even P). I have noticed variations in engine idle speeds in AT vehicles even when switching from N straight to P (and these are both selections that pose no resistance to engine power). If that is the case, then might it not be possible that the system is giving the engine an incorrect idle setting when D or R is selected (with the foot on the brake pedal and no throttle input from the driver). Software problem perhaps? Dunno, also first time I hear of this...


Quote:

Originally Posted by Supercourse (Post 5081284)
...The warranty running out should not be a concern - within warranty they are working on the problem, and have tried at least 2 unsuccessful fixes (ECU and Transmission computer)...

That's right yes. As long as the problem was reported before the expiry date the case will remain open and covered until it is resolved. So I would not worry about that. In my experience though, I had to stay persistent with my claim to keep the process rolling. But from experience, general service in Dubai is good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by madurodave (Post 5082537)
I thought the same thing.
Perhaps Toyota began making transmissions for GM?:rofl:

lol. :rofl:

gepardson 04-07-2010 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supercourse (Post 5081284)
The car wants to go while the brake is pressed.

I thought I had got onto a Toyota forum by mistake!

:cry:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supercourse (Post 5081284)
The car wants to go while the brake is pressed.

But it may be a drive-by-wire type of issue.

This is a 2008 model X3 with the normal Tiptronic Transmission - No Drive By Wire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supercourse (Post 5081284)
The car wants to go while the brake is pressed.

The warranty running out should not be a concern - within warranty they are working on the problem, and have tried at least 2 unsuccessful fixes (ECU and Transmission computer).

So it doesn't matter if the warranty runs out before the correct fix is arrived at - it will still be fully covered.

I guess you are right. However it's still very frustrating that it's almost a year from the first time I reported this and it is still not fixed after so many attempts not to mention the waist of time. The funny thing is, every time they attempt to fix the issue, it actually works fine for some time and then the fault is coming back slowly and it gradually becomes worse and worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supercourse (Post 5081284)
The car wants to go while the brake is pressed.
Haven't seen anything similar reported here, so can't offer any useful suggestion.

Hopefully the Regional BMW people or HQ will come up with something soon.


That's what they say as well, that they haven't seen this happening before, except now they found another car in Bahrain with the same behavior.

I feel it's either a software problem or a connection issue like a ground fault or something because when I take it back from repair it works for some time just fine and then it starts coming back. I was reading some posts about the transmission software issue some of the X3 owners have been experincing with rough downshifts in low gears. I actually was complaining about this as well but the dealer convinced me it's normal on an X3. Now I start thinking it's somehow related as when I take the car back from service, as I mentioned, the fault does not manifest itself and the driving experience is a lot smoother as well.

Thanks for the post.
Gep.

gepardson 04-07-2010 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LvdB (Post 5082886)
I'm just thinking in general here. Are there not different engine idle speed settings and/or automatic throttle inputs for the different gear positions (for example, D or R might have a different setup compared to N, or even P). I have noticed variations in engine idle speeds in AT vehicles even when switching from N straight to P (and these are both selections that pose no resistance to engine power). If that is the case, then might it not be possible that the system is giving the engine an incorrect idle setting when D or R is selected (with the foot on the brake pedal and no throttle input from the driver). Software problem perhaps? Dunno, also first time I hear of this...

Well... you are somehow right. I am not very familiar with how the Tiptronic transmition actually works but it feels like the transmission is not aware of the brake being pressed at all. It tries moving the car and ... surprise, surprise, ... the car is not moving because of the brakes. Then it gives up for a split second after which it tries again moving the car. This goes in a cycle.

Thanks for the post.
Gep.

gepardson 04-07-2010 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madurodave (Post 5082537)
I thought the same thing.
Let us know the outcome.
This is the firat I have seen on this for BMW.

I will be glad to let you guys know the outcome as I'll be happy having an outcome. Nothing on the horizon so far though... :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzNMpower32 (Post 5082185)
Does it only happen when the steering is turned? Generally it's not good to hold the power steering at the bumpstop for extended times since it puts strain on various drivetrain parts but if it occurs even when the steering angle isn't as severe, it is likely another problem.

Well, at first I had it asociated with the steering being fully turned and, although I agree it is not good to hold power steering at bumpstop position, this is still not a normal behavior. Last time it actually happened while I was stopped on the side, dropping my wife off for work and heading to the delaer to leave the car for service. Once I'm clear to move, I switch from N to D (No R involved this time and no steering at bumpstop position). The same shaking, go, wait - brake is pressed, now go, no, hold on - brake is still pressed - engine dies. I was actually embaressed as people were looking at me like what the hell is this guy doing...


Quote:

Originally Posted by AzNMpower32 (Post 5082185)
How quickly do you shift from D to R? Does the shaking only occur once the transmission lever is in R? I also assume that the vehicle is completely stationary before changing gears, right?

Well, I do not switch too quick from D to R or any other way and yes, the vehicle is completely stationary and the brake is down.

Thanks for the post.
Gep.

06BMWX3 04-07-2010 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gepardson (Post 5082923)
This is a 2008 model X3 with the normal Tiptronic Transmission - No Drive By Wire.

I'm pretty sure all X3's are DBW(Drive by Wire) since 2004, meaning there is no cable between the gas pedal and engine throttle.

markled 04-07-2010 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gepardson (Post 5082928)
Well... you are somehow right. I am not very familiar with how the Tiptronic transmition actually works but it feels like the transmission is not aware of the brake being pressed at all. It tries moving the car and ... surprise, surprise, ... the car is not moving because of the brakes. Then it gives up for a split second after which it tries again moving the car. This goes in a cycle.

Thanks for the post.
Gep.

Torque converter clutch lockup?

AzNMpower32 04-07-2010 06:21 AM

The transmission should know the brake pedal is depressed; there is a safety switch that prevents the user from shifting out of neutral unless the brake pedal is depressed.

gepardson 04-08-2010 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzNMpower32 (Post 5083110)
The transmission should know the brake pedal is depressed; there is a safety switch that prevents the user from shifting out of neutral unless the brake pedal is depressed.

Well - I can switch from D to R through N so - you are right - the car knows the brake is down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markled (Post 5082975)
Torque converter clutch lockup?

It could be related to clutch. I'll try to look into how the Tiptornic transmission is working so that I can have a better understanding of what is going on. Do you have any suggestion on where to start reading?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 06BMWX3 (Post 5082948)
I'm pretty sure all X3's are DBW(Drive by Wire) since 2004, meaning there is no cable between the gas pedal and engine throttle.

My mistake - Sorry ! I though you were saying Shift by Wire.

Hmmm... Could it be related to DBW ? What would happen if I keep the brake down and try pressing the gas. I'm not doing that obviously, I'm just tinking if I could simulate the fault as the dealer claims that, although they believe my complaint is legit, they could not reproduce the fault.

Thanks for the replies.
Gep.

tekyes 04-08-2010 08:27 AM

Just another thought;
what grade fuel you using?
Did you try changing on fuel brand or octane rating?
Perhaps worth a shot...

gepardson 04-09-2010 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tekyes (Post 5086640)
Just another thought;
what grade fuel you using?
Did you try changing on fuel brand or octane rating?
Perhaps worth a shot...

I don't think this could be fuel related. I am using the recommended octane 98 unleaded.

Thanks for the post,
Gep.

gepardson 08-13-2010 01:12 PM

Car still not fixed.
 
Hi All,

I haven't posted anything here since quite some time. Since my last post the car was in for service another 3 - 4 times and it is actually in for service for the same fault as I write this post - (Mostly while reverse parking and while steering is at a bump stop, with the brake pressed, the "car wants to go").

I wrote an email to BMW in Germany but they referred me back to BMW Middle East who in turn referred me back to my dealer in Dubai.

Anyways, after my email I was told that a new software was installed, one that was suppose to fix exactly this type of issues. The moment I took the car from them it was clear that it did not improve anything.

After every fix I have still experienced light versions of the same issue which is described in my initial posts.

While reading about X3 issues however, I realized that the rough shifting complaint that I have had from the very beginning is actually happening to a lot of X3 owners.


What happens basically is that while driving, I am experiencing hesitations coming from the transmission resulting in delay in acceleration, especially in conditions like merging traffic. Also, sometimes, it seems like the transmission is thinking about which gear to shift to resulting in a very un-smooth delivery of power to the wheels. This happens a lot in curves, specially in uphill curves. Also, while shifting down while slowing down, I can sometimes feel the transmission so rough that I check mirror to make sure I was not hit by the car behind me.

Once, after taking the car back from service and driving home, I stopped at a traffic light. With the car in a perfect standstill, with the brakes lightly pressed, enough to hold the car in place while the transmission was still in "D", without any accelerator input, the car tried to move so violently that it actually jumped forward an inch or two. That only happened once but it was scary.

I actually don't know what to believe anymore about this car and I have more and more serious doubts that the dealer can fix it.

Did any of you guys experience this rough shifting / hesitation issue ? Were you able to get the car fixed from such condition? What did you do to solve the issue ?

Thanks in advance.

Kind regards,
Gep.

Evlengr 08-13-2010 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gepardson (Post 5393874)
Hi All,

I haven't posted anything here since quite some time. Since my last post the car was in for service another 3 - 4 times and it is actually in for service for the same fault as I write this post - (Mostly while reverse parking and while steering is at a bump stop, with the brake pressed, the "car wants to go").

I wrote an email to BMW in Germany but they referred me back to BMW Middle East who in turn referred me back to my dealer in Dubai.

Anyways, after my email I was told that a new software was installed, one that was suppose to fix exactly this type of issues. The moment I took the car from them it was clear that it did not improve anything.

After every fix I have still experienced light versions of the same issue which is described in my initial posts.

While reading about X3 issues however, I realized that the rough shifting complaint that I have had from the very beginning is actually happening to a lot of X3 owners.


What happens basically is that while driving, I am experiencing hesitations coming from the transmission resulting in delay in acceleration, especially in conditions like merging traffic. Also, sometimes, it seems like the transmission is thinking about which gear to shift to resulting in a very un-smooth delivery of power to the wheels. This happens a lot in curves, specially in uphill curves. Also, while shifting down while slowing down, I can sometimes feel the transmission so rough that I check mirror to make sure I was not hit by the car behind me.

Once, after taking the car back from service and driving home, I stopped at a traffic light. With the car in a perfect standstill, with the brakes lightly pressed, enough to hold the car in place while the transmission was still in "D", without any accelerator input, the car tried to move so violently that it actually jumped forward an inch or two. That only happened once but it was scary.

I actually don't know what to believe anymore about this car and I have more and more serious doubts that the dealer can fix it.

Did any of you guys experience this rough shifting / hesitation issue ? Were you able to get the car fixed from such condition? What did you do to solve the issue ?

Thanks in advance.

Kind regards,
Gep.


Refer to transmission sticky. I got an MT to replace mine as they could not fix it.

gepardson 08-19-2010 03:07 AM

Hi,

I just got a call from the dealer and they are now saying that they got BMW approve a new engine for my car. They are placing the order and it will take about two weeks for the new engine to arrive.

I am worried!

Should I let them replace the engine and see what happens or should I ask them for a refund or trade in to another model or ...

Seeing that so many X3s have the same problem makes me think that maybe I should get another car.

Is the X5 more reliable ?

Thanks in advance for any comments!

Kind regards,
Gep.

X3-terrestrial 08-19-2010 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gepardson (Post 5406421)
Hi,

I just got a call from the dealer and they are now saying that they got BMW approve a new engine for my car. They are placing the order and it will take about two weeks for the new engine to arrive.

.

The whole engine!?:yikes: But what was the problem?? I haven't heard of whole engines replacements on X3's. The known problem on the sticky is for transmission on 2007+ models, not engine.

gepardson 08-19-2010 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X3-terrestrial (Post 5406699)
The whole engine!?:yikes: But what was the problem?? I haven't heard of whole engines replacements on X3's. The known problem on the sticky is for transmission on 2007+ models, not engine.

Yes, however, it seems that they think the problem is coming from uneven engine speed.
When I took it in this time they said they would take off the cylinder head to check the valves as they think one or more valves migh be ... sticky? Is that possible? Could that cause this? It seems that they found something that made them take this radical approach. My only concern is that, what if this will still not fix the problem?

X3-terrestrial 08-19-2010 03:57 PM

You should be fine, considering is a "new engine". It will be covered by a separate warranty I'say one or two years. I still think the fix is a little over the top though. For sticky valves, a head replacement will cure it.

gepardson 09-27-2010 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X3-terrestrial (Post 5408275)
You should be fine, considering is a "new engine". It will be covered by a separate warranty I'say one or two years. I still think the fix is a little over the top though. For sticky valves, a head replacement will cure it.

Hi,

I just came back from vacation and received back my car from the dealer.

They claim they replaced the engine as they said they would before I left for vacation, I'm not sure though how to check if this is true or not.

When I asked them what was the reason for the engine replacement, the Workshop Manager told me that there was a very small amount of water leaking into the "combustion chamber" and this was causing the engine to go creasy.

I'm not sure what to believe. I did not take down the Engine Number before I took the car in so I cannot compare it with the current one.

Is there a way to tell the manufacturing year of the engine from the engine number?

I have the following on mine now:

N52B25A 16A
0964 A 010

This is engraved in the engine block.

There is also a label which sais Made in Germany and the number 0420494.

I will ask for an official service report to include all repairs done on my car since I purchased it and even before that if possible.

Kind regards,
Gep.

Sonoman707 09-27-2010 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gepardson (Post 5500113)
Hi,

I just came back from vacation and received back my car from the dealer.

Not sure about verifying replacement - but were your issues resolved or not?

gepardson 09-27-2010 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonoman707 (Post 5500321)
Not sure about verifying replacement - but were your issues resolved or not?

Well, it takes longer to figure that out. I just got the car back yesterday and during the week, I'm not doing a whole lot of driving as I only drive from home to the office and back.

The fault is not something that comes up immediately so it takes time to test it.

I'll post my conclusion once I get to one.

Thanks,
Gep.

gepardson 10-18-2010 01:01 PM

Hello All,

Just a short update after the engine replacement.

First of all, the engine was indeed replaced, I've got a letter from the dealer to use for rectifying the engine number with the authorities in the registration card, stating the new engine number. I've also seen the old engine with my engine number marked on it.

Did this help however? Well, maybe it did with the dangerously slow pickup which I did not experience after the engine change, however, I still have occasional engine hunting that would make the car "jump forward" in situations when the brakes are lightly pressed just enough to hold the car still at a traffic light and rough shifting, especially downshifts, especially in heavy traffic situations when it feels like aggressive engine breaking.

Additionally, the Brake System in conjunction with DST/DTC (4x4) lights came on in the dashboard a couple of days back. I took the car in for repair again on Sunday.

Warranty is over in a day so - I'm giving up!

I am considering a trade-in deal with a 2009 X5 offered by the dealer. It's not the best deal but I would say it's not that bad either - I just hope I can go through with it.

Thanks for those who tried to help and offered advice!

I hope I will have a better luck with another car.

Regards,
Gep.


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