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Stealth.Pilot 06-07-2010 09:31 PM

Want one, but not at these prices
 
I never bought the E60 BMW. I drove 3 BMWs back to back since I was 21 - 325, 328 cabrio and 330 cabrio. When the E60 came out it was time to switch to a grown up car, but after driving the 550i, while the car was okay, it wasn't distinctive and I found it ugly. So I bought a Lexus GS460 instead. The 8-speed gear box, the intuitive touch screen navigation, and the very un-Lexus active suspension and power stabilizer system made the GS460 closer to the BMW I wanted to buy.

So I drove the F10 on Sunday with the hope of returning to the BMW fold. And I really love it. The driving dynamics are off the chart. Being a V8 guy these days, I drove the 550i with a option packages that matched the specs of my Lexus GS460, plus HUD.

I gotta say the F10 is a huge step forward. I've driven every car in this class, and I think the F10 is the best. I love especially the strong contrast between the comfort and sport+ modes. This is a car that is at once a luxury cruiser, and a BMW M Sports Car. The navigation system is unbelievably good. And the cabin is just beautiful. I drove the 2010 E550 and 2011 Infiniti M56S, and preferred my GS460 over both of those. But the F10 is the best.

However what I can't swallow is that just to match the same options as on my Lexus I have to pay a $10k sticker premium. To get the new goodies I don't have it ends up at $76k - $16k more than the GS460. I might pay 10% more, but not 22% more!

I'm going to wait. Maybe Lexus will have a GSF at $76k and I'd rather have that with a V10. $76k just seems like a lot for non M 5er.

If the price I paid was say $500 over Euro delivery wholesale pricing, does anyone know what that would be for a car with a $76k msrp?

tim-atl 06-08-2010 04:20 PM

Although there are price lists to figure it out I think you can deduct 9% and be very close. Since we haven't hit the launch date yet you may have trouble getting a deal like ED +500. I'm trying to do something similar but will wait a bit first.

Tim

TXPearl 06-09-2010 08:41 AM

I thought ED invoice was about 15% below MSRP? (~9% off for US invoice, plus another ~7% for ED)

Even at that, for a $76K car, you're still talking about a $65K cost - and I think it'll be hard to get that kind of discount for a while.

richschneid 06-09-2010 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BATMAN75 (Post 5243226)
I never bought the E60 BMW. I drove 3 BMWs back to back since I was 21 - 325, 328 cabrio and 330 cabrio. When the E60 came out it was time to switch to a grown up car, but after driving the 550i, while the car was okay, it wasn't distinctive and I found it ugly. So I bought a Lexus GS460 instead. The 8-speed gear box, the intuitive touch screen navigation, and the very un-Lexus active suspension and power stabilizer system made the GS460 closer to the BMW I wanted to buy.

So I drove the F10 on Sunday with the hope of returning to the BMW fold. And I really love it. The driving dynamics are off the chart. Being a V8 guy these days, I drove the 550i with a option packages that matched the specs of my Lexus GS460, plus HUD.

I gotta say the F10 is a huge step forward. I've driven every car in this class, and I think the F10 is the best. I love especially the strong contrast between the comfort and sport+ modes. This is a car that is at once a luxury cruiser, and a BMW M Sports Car. The navigation system is unbelievably good. And the cabin is just beautiful. I drove the 2010 E550 and 2011 Infiniti M56S, and preferred my GS460 over both of those. But the F10 is the best.

However what I can't swallow is that just to match the same options as on my Lexus I have to pay a $10k sticker premium. To get the new goodies I don't have it ends up at $76k - $16k more than the GS460. I might pay 10% more, but not 22% more!

I'm going to wait. Maybe Lexus will have a GSF at $76k and I'd rather have that with a V10. $76k just seems like a lot for non M 5er.

If the price I paid was say $500 over Euro delivery wholesale pricing, does anyone know what that would be for a car with a $76k msrp?

Try comparing the 550i with the Porche Panamera at $110,000 and the Maserati QP at $130,000 and see if you think the Bimmer is a better deal. :thumbup:

tim-atl 06-09-2010 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXPearl (Post 5246697)
I thought ED invoice was about 15% below MSRP? (~9% off for US invoice, plus another ~7% for ED)

Even at that, for a $76K car, you're still talking about a $65K cost - and I think it'll be hard to get that kind of discount for a while.

I wasn't very clear and simply wrong. Forget the 9%, the correct number is US Invoice minus 7%. The pdf's are out there, I just can't find them at the moment.

Tim

casper 06-09-2010 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BATMAN75 (Post 5243226)
I never bought the E60 BMW. I drove 3 BMWs back to back since I was 21 - 325, 328 cabrio and 330 cabrio. When the E60 came out it was time to switch to a grown up car, but after driving the 550i, while the car was okay, it wasn't distinctive and I found it ugly. So I bought a Lexus GS460 instead. The 8-speed gear box, the intuitive touch screen navigation, and the very un-Lexus active suspension and power stabilizer system made the GS460 closer to the BMW I wanted to buy.

So I drove the F10 on Sunday with the hope of returning to the BMW fold. And I really love it. The driving dynamics are off the chart. Being a V8 guy these days, I drove the 550i with a option packages that matched the specs of my Lexus GS460, plus HUD.

I gotta say the F10 is a huge step forward. I've driven every car in this class, and I think the F10 is the best. I love especially the strong contrast between the comfort and sport+ modes. This is a car that is at once a luxury cruiser, and a BMW M Sports Car. The navigation system is unbelievably good. And the cabin is just beautiful. I drove the 2010 E550 and 2011 Infiniti M56S, and preferred my GS460 over both of those. But the F10 is the best.

However what I can't swallow is that just to match the same options as on my Lexus I have to pay a $10k sticker premium. To get the new goodies I don't have it ends up at $76k - $16k more than the GS460. I might pay 10% more, but not 22% more!

I'm going to wait. Maybe Lexus will have a GSF at $76k and I'd rather have that with a V10. $76k just seems like a lot for non M 5er.

If the price I paid was say $500 over Euro delivery wholesale pricing, does anyone know what that would be for a car with a $76k msrp?

If you bough a Lexus in the past and found it acceptable, even better than an E60 550 as you say, then, you don't need a BMW, take advantage of the fact that you were happy on a Lexus and save your money which seems to be a priority for you. I wish I could be happy on a Japanese car but I am spoiled, so I am forced to pay.

chrischeung 06-09-2010 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richschneid (Post 5246713)
Try comparing the 550i with the Porche Panamera at $110,000 and the Maserati QP at $130,000 and see if you think the Bimmer is a better deal. :thumbup:

No - those cars are signficantly larger. The 550i comes up "short". They also have some arguably enticing features, Panamera - 4WD, DSG; Maserati - rear transaxle.

I also think we are more likely to see F10 buyers cross shopping the Lexus GS more than the Porsche or Maserati - even a used one.

richschneid 06-09-2010 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrischeung (Post 5247921)
No - those cars are signficantly larger. The 550i comes up "short". They also have some arguably enticing features, Panamera - 4WD, DSG; Maserati - rear transaxle.

I also think we are more likely to see F10 buyers cross shopping the Lexus GS more than the Porsche or Maserati - even a used one.

You are correct the Maser is about 6" longer than the 550 but the Porsche is only 2" longer. But the interior volume of the Maser is only 48 cu ft front and 43 rear and the Porshe has the same in front and only 38 cu ft in the rear with only a slightly larger trunk than the 550. The exact numbers for the 550 are not yet available but as a basis of comparison the 750i has 57 cu ft of front seat volume and 49 cu ft rear, so the 550 should be pretty close to the Maser and the Porsche in interior space.

The wheelbase on the 550i is 116.9" but the Porsche is shorter at 115.0" and the Maser is 4" longer.

You are correct the proper comparison is with the 550i xDrive with sport package in which case the Maser is about 200lbs heavier, but the Porshse is about 200 lbs lighter.

But the really interesting comparison is that the 550i xDrive has 450 lb ft of torque at only 1750 rpm whereas the Maser has only 361 lb ft at 4750 rpm and the Porsche has only 369 lb ft at 3500 rpm. And the 550i has 407hp compared to the Maser at 433hp and the Porsche at 400hp. In addition the 550i has an 8 speed auto (with a rapid shifting sport auto optional for only an extra $500) while the Porsch has a 7 speed dual clutch automated manual and the Maser has a 6 speed auto.

In terms of refinement the Porsch and Maser are a lot noisier. The 550i noise level is about 65db at 70mph, while the Porsche is 69db and the Maser is 70db. This is very important in terms of the fatigue factor on intercity travel on the interstate and one of the criteria that I find very important in a luxury vehicle. For example my 650i has only 63.5 db at 70mph and the 750i has only 65db.

So, all in all I think the 550i xDrive will be faster than either of these, handle about the same, have nearly as much interior space, be quieter at speed, and fully equiped cost about 30 to 50 grand less. The Maser and Porsche certainly will be a little more upscale but the 550i is pretty nice and a lot less expensive. I think its a fair comparison. I don't think the Lexus is in the same league. But you have to drive them all and judge for yourself. :thumbup:

pharding 06-09-2010 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tim-atl (Post 5246775)
I wasn't very clear and simply wrong. Forget the 9%, the correct number is US Invoice minus 7%. The pdf's are out there, I just can't find them at the moment.

Tim

Not true. You can get 11% off of US MSRP on the base car and options with Euro Delivery.

azbimmer 06-09-2010 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richschneid (Post 5248047)
You are correct the Maser is about 6" longer than the 550 but the Porsche is only 2" longer. But the interior volume of the Maser is only 48 cu ft front and 43 rear and the Porshe has the same in front and only 38 cu ft in the rear with only a slightly larger trunk than the 550. The exact numbers for the 550 are not yet available but as a basis of comparison the 750i has 57 cu ft of front seat volume and 49 cu ft rear, so the 550 should be pretty close to the Maser and the Porsche in interior space.

The wheelbase on the 550i is 116.9" but the Porsche is shorter at 115.0" and the Maser is 4" longer.

You are correct the proper comparison is with the 550i xDrive with sport package in which case the Maser is about 200lbs heavier, but the Porshse is about 200 lbs lighter.

But the really interesting comparison is that the 550i xDrive has 450 lb ft of torque at only 1750 rpm whereas the Maser has only 361 lb ft at 4750 rpm and the Porsche has only 369 lb ft at 3500 rpm. And the 550i has 407hp compared to the Maser at 433hp and the Porsche at 400hp. In addition the 550i has an 8 speed auto (with a rapid shifting sport auto optional for only an extra $500) while the Porsch has a 7 speed dual clutch automated manual and the Maser has a 6 speed auto.

In terms of refinement the Porsch and Maser are a lot noisier. The 550i noise level is about 65db at 70mph, while the Porsche is 69db and the Maser is 70db. This is very important in terms of the fatigue factor on intercity travel on the interstate and one of the criteria that I find very important in a luxury vehicle. For example my 650i has only 63.5 db at 70mph and the 750i has only 65db.

So, all in all I think the 550i xDrive will be faster than either of these, handle about the same, have nearly as much interior space, be quieter at speed, and fully equiped cost about 30 to 50 grand less. The Maser and Porsche certainly will be a little more upscale but the 550i is pretty nice and a lot less expensive. I think its a fair comparison. I don't think the Lexus is in the same league. But you have to drive them all and judge for yourself. :thumbup:

I appreciate your comparisons. Maserati is no comparison. It is the laughing stock of European luxury cars. I drove the Panamera, and loved it. However, it is not that much better than a 550. The 5 is actually more comfortable than the Panamera. It wins hands down.

chrischeung 06-09-2010 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richschneid (Post 5248047)
I don't think the Lexus is in the same league.

Except for size and price. Which is probably what the majority of buyers use when selecting their purchase criteria. The Maserati and Panamera would more likely be considered by 7er and S-class buyers.

The 550i is likely a very good car, but may not be best for everyone. Otherwise, who would buy a Maserati, Porsche or Lexus...? Just get whatever is best for you - not what is best for someone else. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem owning a Porsche 911 and Lexus GS350 consecutively - a better choice to me than a single BMW 550i. But since I can't manage my life with 3 cars (we also have my wife's Mazda6), the BMW 5er is the best compromise as my personal and the family car.

richschneid 06-10-2010 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrischeung (Post 5248722)
Except for size and price. Which is probably what the majority of buyers use when selecting their purchase criteria. The Maserati and Panamera would more likely be considered by 7er and S-class buyers.

The 550i is likely a very good car, but may not be best for everyone. Otherwise, who would buy a Maserati, Porsche or Lexus...? Just get whatever is best for you - not what is best for someone else. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem owning a Porsche 911 and Lexus GS350 consecutively - a better choice to me than a single BMW 550i. But since I can't manage my life with 3 cars (we also have my wife's Mazda6), the BMW 5er is the best compromise as my personal and the family car.

I agree with you, but this thread was started with a comment about price, so I was looking at value, ie what you get for your money. He was comparing a less expensive Lexus to a 5 series so I saw no reason not to compare a 5 series to more expensive cars like the Maser and Porsche. The Porshe Panamera is about the same size as a 5 series, the Maser is about the same size as a 750i and a little smaller than the 750Li. But the 550i has better performance than the 750i and the 550i has about the same interior space as the Maser. I was taking my numbers from the comparison test in the March Car and Driver. There are a lot of problems with that comparison test, but there are so many that I can't list them all here without making this really long. :thumbup:

kssod 06-15-2010 06:38 AM

Having just driven a 535i, I walked over to my Jag/Maser dealer to look at the XF supercharged. I think that is what will be cross shopped, since at about 65k you get everything that the 550 has plus another 70hp. The Maser is a whole level above the 5. The interior is absolutely gorgeous with unbelievably rich leather, contrast stitching, beautiful dials, switches etc. On paper probably about the same, but once you fire up the 4.7l and hear the italian aria through its pipes, there is no comparison. The Panamera is just ugly in person IMO

chrischeung 06-15-2010 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kssod (Post 5259934)
XF supercharged. I think that is what will be cross shopped, since at about 65k you get everything that the 550 has plus another 70hp.

Here we go...

richschneid 06-15-2010 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kssod (Post 5259934)
Having just driven a 535i, I walked over to my Jag/Maser dealer to look at the XF supercharged. I think that is what will be cross shopped, since at about 65k you get everything that the 550 has plus another 70hp. The Maser is a whole level above the 5. The interior is absolutely gorgeous with unbelievably rich leather, contrast stitching, beautiful dials, switches etc. On paper probably about the same, but once you fire up the 4.7l and hear the italian aria through its pipes, there is no comparison. The Panamera is just ugly in person IMO

Just checked out the Jaguar website. There is absolutely no comparison between the 550i and the XF supercharged. The difference in hp is more than made up for by the extra torque in the bimmer, and, in addition the 550i, has an adjustable suspension and an 8 speed transmission. The Jag has a 6 speed and no available suspension adjustments. There are a multitude of other things that are better in the bimmer. But one thing you cannot judge at the dealer is how it drives. I suggest you read the comparison tests when they come out. Jaguars never, ever drive as well as bimmers, ever. At least since 1965. The only reason to buy a Jag is because they look great, never for how they drive. If you want to compare the XFR I suggest you do it against the F10 M5 due around February.

The Maser will get blown off the road by the 550i xDrive for about 50 grand less. It also has only a 6 speed tranny. It will destroy the Maser on the Road and on the Track. :thumbup:

ghstudio 06-15-2010 03:44 PM

What's wrong with buying a car because it looks great? Handling does no good in SW florida where there are no curves or hills. Driving around town or on Interstates, I think that beauty trumps outstanding cornering...and one can easily argue that the ride of a lexus is far better than a BMW. Different cars for different folks.

richschneid 06-15-2010 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghstudio (Post 5261195)
What's wrong with buying a car because it looks great? Handling does no good in SW florida where there are no curves or hills. Driving around town or on Interstates, I think that beauty trumps outstanding cornering...and one can easily argue that the ride of a lexus is far better than a BMW. Different cars for different folks.

There is nothing wrong with buying a car for how it looks. I see no reason to ever buy a BMW for how it looks. The extra price for a bimmer is always for how it drives. If that doesn't matter to you then I agree totally there is no reason to buy one. I also agree that the Lexus has a better ride and people who buy a car for its ride should buy a Lexus, definitely. The only reason to buy a BMW is for how it drives, otherwise it's a complete waste of money. :thumbup:

maug1 06-15-2010 04:10 PM

Let me start by saying that I have owned a 2001 X5, a 2004 530i and a 2008 535i (which BMW bought back), I own a 328 convertible and I also own a 2010 Jaguar XF so I can speak with some experience about this topic. First, the XF does not drive like a 1965 Jaguar. Handling is great (not as tight as the BMW) and the ride is comfortable but not soft. In terms of power, the car has 385 hp and while the transmission is only 6 speeds, it is silky smooth. Likewise, there is a sport adjustment to the transmission changing the shift points. I have driven a 2011 535 and coming from the Jaguar it seems underpowered. I have not driven a 550. They are both great cars and the point of this post is don't knock it, until you try it. I never thought I would buy a Jaguar but then I drove it. Will I go back to a BMW--why not, but not right now as I am enjoying a Jaguar that is trouble free and looks great. What more could I ask for?

richschneid 06-15-2010 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maug1 (Post 5261261)
Let me start by saying that I have owned a 2001 X5, a 2004 530i and a 2008 535i (which BMW bought back), I own a 328 convertible and I also own a 2010 Jaguar XF so I can speak with some experience about this topic. First, the XF does not drive like a 1965 Jaguar. Handling is great (not as tight as the BMW) and the ride is comfortable but not soft. In terms of power, the car has 385 hp and while the transmission is only 6 speeds, it is silky smooth. Likewise, there is a sport adjustment to the transmission changing the shift points. I have driven a 2011 535 and coming from the Jaguar it seems underpowered. I have not driven a 550. They are both great cars and the point of this post is don't knock it, until you try it. I never thought I would buy a Jaguar but then I drove it. Will I go back to a BMW--why not, but not right now as I am enjoying a Jaguar that is trouble free and looks great. What more could I ask for?

What I said was that the equivalent Jaguar has not driven better than the contemporaneous equivalent BMW since 1965. I'm sure the XKE 4.2 drove better than the BMW 507 from the 1950's. The Jag 4 door sedans from that era, 1965, were far more expensive and larger than the BMW 1600 and 2002. But once the equivalent sized BMW, the 5 series, was introduced in the 1970's it left the Jags behind in terms of driving, but not of course in terms of styling. Of course, the drive quality of Jaguars has improved over the years. That goes without saying.

The Jag you compared to the 535 is an 8 cylinder, the 535 is a 6 cylinder. This comparison is to the 550i and the Jag 8 cylinder. The BMW straight 6 is a fantastic engine, but it is not even close to a BMW 8 cylinder. And the new turbo 8 in the 550i is the best yet. The higher performance version in next year's F10 M5 will have almost 600 hp and be even better. A good friend of mine had a supercharged Jag convertible a few years ago when I had my E39 M5. I drove his car and there was simply no comparison. The Jag is a great car, it just doesn't drive like a BMW. I wasn't "knocking" it I was just comparing it based on price vs performance. For BMW's "sports" comes first and "luxury" comes second. It's just a different kind of car. "You pays your money and takes your choice." :)

maug1 06-15-2010 05:25 PM

I realize that the 535 is a 6 cylinder car and the Jaguar is an 8. But you are still comparing apples to oranges. You talk about your friends couple of years old 4.2 XKE. You still have not driven a 550 and compared it an XF 5.0, a super charged XF or an XFR. After you do that, you can give an opinion. Until that time you are speculating as to what the drive may or may not be like. You may want to check out what Top Gear said about the car.

kssod 06-15-2010 05:43 PM

the basis for the comparison is what do you get for the same amount of money. A supercharged XF is about the same as a loaded 535i at about 65k. The XFR is 75-80K and has over 500hp. A CTS-V will walk away from all of them, acceleration and handling ,for less money ,and is by far and away the performance sedan bargain.
I just didn't like the turbo lag on my 535i test drive... push the pedal down, wait 1 sec and the afterburners kick in, no linearity at all. Curious what the 550i will be like when I drive that next.

mlai 06-15-2010 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kssod (Post 5261477)
the basis for the comparison is what do you get for the same amount of money. A supercharged XF is about the same as a loaded 535i at about 65k. The XFR is 75-80K and has over 500hp. A CTS-V will walk away from all of them, acceleration and handling ,for less money ,and is by far and away the performance sedan bargain.
I just didn't like the turbo lag on my 535i test drive... push the pedal down, wait 1 sec and the afterburners kick in, no linearity at all. Curious what the 550i will be like when I drive that next.

just curious about that turbo lag. were you in normal mode or sport mode?

kssod 06-15-2010 07:29 PM

The 535i was the demo about 56k. The auto was in D. From just about any speed when I floored it, it seemed like the pedal was down a sec or less before the afterburners kick in. It was noticeable enough that I repeated a 60-80 or 90 passing scenario a few times and got the same thing. I don't get anything like that with my RL, or when I drove the M37x. Not sure if it actually is turbo lag, or that there are so many gears to jump down from cruising in 8th to passing in 3 or 4. It almost seems like the drive by wire is gauging how far down the pedal is before the computers figure out what gear to go to etc. When I switch over to manual mode the lag seemed much less, and downshifts from 7 to 4 seemed very quick. Not sure if there is a sport mode for the tranny while in D or how to access it since I am not a BMW guy (yet). In the M37 just rotate the big knob on the center stack to sport and the tranny shift points and throttle inputs all quicken up. I am curious if others notice the lag too, maybe it is from the single turbo vs dual, but according to BMW articles the single turbo is much quicker to spool and has virtually no lag

richschneid 06-15-2010 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maug1 (Post 5261438)
I realize that the 535 is a 6 cylinder car and the Jaguar is an 8. But you are still comparing apples to oranges. You talk about your friends couple of years old 4.2 XKE. You still have not driven a 550 and compared it an XF 5.0, a super charged XF or an XFR. After you do that, you can give an opinion. Until that time you are speculating as to what the drive may or may not be like. You may want to check out what Top Gear said about the car.

You are talking about apples and cinder blocks. Would you please get a grip. An XKE was not supercharged. I was talking about a contemporary supercharged Jaguar with a simultaneous contemporary M5.

Please get in touch with reality. Are you saying that one can only have an opinion about cars that one has driven? Don't you ever read the automotive literature and comparision tests? Don't you know how to calculate power to weight ratios, look at slalom times, understand the meaning of cornering g forces, multiply torque by gear and rear axle ratios? Don't you know the benefits of an 8 speed over a 6 speed? What is God's name are you talking about?

BTW, I have owned four different eight cylinder BMWs over the past 18 years and driven dozens of 6 cylinder ones. I have also ridden in and driven many Jaguars, both 6 and 8 cylinders. I have read the road tests on the lastest Jags as well. I have read multiple road tests on both brands over the past 46 years including every issue of Car and Driver and Road and Track since 1964.

The notion that one can only comment are cars that one has driven is patently absurd and totally ridiculous on its face. Good Grief! :thumbdwn:

mlai 06-15-2010 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kssod (Post 5261675)
The 535i was the demo about 56k. The auto was in D. From just about any speed when I floored it, it seemed like the pedal was down a sec or less before the afterburners kick in. It was noticeable enough that I repeated a 60-80 or 90 passing scenario a few times and got the same thing. I don't get anything like that with my RL, or when I drove the M37x. Not sure if it actually is turbo lag, or that there are so many gears to jump down from cruising in 8th to passing in 3 or 4. It almost seems like the drive by wire is gauging how far down the pedal is before the computers figure out what gear to go to etc. When I switch over to manual mode the lag seemed much less, and downshifts from 7 to 4 seemed very quick. Not sure if there is a sport mode for the tranny while in D or how to access it since I am not a BMW guy (yet). In the M37 just rotate the big knob on the center stack to sport and the tranny shift points and throttle inputs all quicken up. I am curious if others notice the lag too, maybe it is from the single turbo vs dual, but according to BMW articles the single turbo is much quicker to spool and has virtually no lag

You need to switch to sport mode and I think the car will respond quite a bit quicker.....


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