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-   -   Moonroof and/or Sun Shield remove and replace (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524818)

cam99 03-06-2011 02:19 PM

Moonroof and/or Sun Shield remove and replace
 
Anyone have technical manual instructions to remove and replace the moon roof and sun shield.

My panoramic sun shield will only close 3/4 of the way and only after hitting the close button like 20 times, Each time I hit the close button, the sun shield closes a couple of inches. If I hit the open button, the shield opens all the way

cam99 03-08-2011 04:55 PM

Anyone know where to get technical manuals for the X5

salbol1 11-05-2012 10:08 PM

Still need help?
 
I'm working on the pano roof right now - are you still looking for help?

DDutchman 11-07-2012 03:24 PM

Sun/moon panorama roof
 
I could use some help with the roof, too. When I bought the. 2005 3.0i the dealer told me the roof was disabled

Since it was the first X5 I ever drove I did not know whether the roof is supposed to be completely covered by the ceiling panels when closed. They did not. One slides but is not driven. It can be moved by hand. The other does not move and is in the middle of the two roof windows.

Is that the way it is supposed be?

I did buy the repair kit but have been hesitant to tear everything down until I do not need my only transportation for awhile.

Thanks for any insight you can give me. I was able to mount the OEM trailer kit, so I am learning a lot about BMW design.

QSilver7 11-07-2012 05:54 PM

Maybe this video will bring a bit of enlightenment as to how the interior shade panel and glass roof panels are designed to operate (shade panel should fully retract):


Here's a link to the online BMW TIS. Since you provided model info...I was able to get you all the way to the TIS documents for the sunroof. You will see the TIS documents available for reading in the far right column. Since 10 SUNROOF is highlighted...you'll see the 5 TIS docs that are available to read. The links are live...and you can also click on the other 2 areas that will also have TIS documents you can read (12 mechanical & 13 electrical sunroof components): http://tis.spaghetticoder.org/e53/X5...e_top/sunroof/

I hope this provides you with the info you seek...good luck and report back if it helps or not. :)

DDutchman 11-07-2012 07:03 PM

I am overwhelmed. Thank you so much! I am sure theses resources will be helpful.

salbol1 11-07-2012 08:37 PM

I'm in the middle of the pano repair - and based on what I've learned I'd budget 3 days to work on this. Here's some scoop on your concern, and some other general problems I've seen.

The 2 headliner panels are connected via a small knob that is the piece on the bottom of group 7 on the online ETK here:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...23&hg=54&fg=05

When retracted, the rear panel falls into a small channel on a piece located in the "headliner repair kit" that's not shown on here. That small "knob" glides in the channel on the rear panel, and that's how the top panel glides over the rear panel. These panels are controlled by the rear motor - and act independent of the front and rear glass mechanism components.
The cassette has to be removed from the car to be able to reach this - or in your case you might be able to get away with removing the rear bolts while still attached to the frame - and loosening the other bolts to the point that the rear portion of the cassette can be lowered enough to complete the work.


Rear Vent Issue - window stays up:
This problem is caused by a small tab that located on the "Front Glass Mechanism Drive Plate" which is represented by the top part in Group 6 on the ETK. There's torsional stress placed on that piece which causes the tab to ultimately fall out of alignment with a small channel located on the bottom on the first piece in group 7 (Rear Glass Mechanism Drive Plate). When this occurs (the piece is aluminum that coated with a veneer of plastic which separates and cracks) the Front Glass drive plate stops aligning with the Rear Glass Drive Plate - result : rear window won't close from vent position. This also accounts for how this can happen 1 side at a time - and will ultimately lead to the other side breaking as well. This problem can be corrected by placing a "brace" in the rear of the "U" channel of the front drive plate -so that the torsional stress isn't transferred to the tab causing it to crack and fail. I secured a plastic formed brace via JB Weld - and it appears to be doing the job. BTW, cutting off the small triangular piece described by many posts from our friend down under on the Rear Plate is why you can still have the function of the front window venting, as well as retracting all the way back. That small triangle tab is the piece that connects those drive plates together when the tab from the Front Mechanism aligns correctly.

Another BTW - while the TIS links that QSilver posted are good - they by no means tell the story of how to do the repair effectively. Even the advanced information I was able to obtain from a BMW tech doesn't tell the story - and I have made mistakes doing the repair following this guide word by word.

I need to post some stuff to youtube to be able to show the workings of the sunroof and help "uncover" the way the mechanisms interact. The fact that the tab on the front drive plate warps like it does - and can effectively be remedied by a brace - has to be a conscious decision to not modify how this piece is designed. I spent $565 procuring all of the kits from BMA - and the time to do this is the killer. But given this can be done by DIY'ers at 1/10 the cost of a "full Cassette" replacement by the dealership has to be a "wink wink" arrangement with the OEM to design the parts good, but not "too" good, to help keep the dealerships flush with $5k repairs on these out of warranty cars. Or in your case, let's just disconnect the sunroof and not be bothered with it. The other thing that absolutely drives me crazy is the use of cheap, stupid plastic components in places that have some pretty intense stress (engine timing chain guide, window regulators, the sunroof, etc,etc,etc). I swear this has to be another "arrangement" for the dealerships to keep them flush with repairs. While I will NEVER be in the primary market for a BMW, you'd think that some of those people that eat all of the depreciation would bitch a little bit more - even though these repairs are covered under warranty for them. Even if you do have $100k+ to spend on a car - I'd think a bit more of engineering excellence would be voiced by SOME of those people - if not for the inconvenience it presents to them of having to drive a loaner while the dealerships fix their cars.

DDutchman 11-09-2012 12:32 AM

Fantastic, detailed information! Keep it up. In my case, the rear window has not opened since I got the X5. However, one day I was just sitting in the car, hands off, when the front glass opened part way. That is when I learned about the manual crank. I also learned the non-BMW used car dealer had disabled the panorama switch but not the motors. I pulled the power to the front one. While trying to figure what was what I came across a couple of small, translucent white rectangular pieces that appear to be broken off from the rail system that are about 3-4 millimeters. From what else I have learned from the links you provided it looks like one of the sliding visors jumped the track and is jammed over the ventilation grille. The other one is loose and slid all the way back into the headliner. Since the tracks are black I wonder what the white pieces are for. Could they be the guides for the sliding visor?

salbol1 11-10-2012 06:11 AM

Can you post a shot of the parts in question, and I can tell you what they are? I also posted a bunch of stuff on Xoutpost under the title "Panoramic Sunroof Deconstruct" that might also give some more info.

The vent grill piece is attached to the top panel on the rear.

The rear panel is the one that has some small plastic pieces that fit into a channel - the front one is connected to the innermost rail via the 2nd piece from the top in group #9
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...23&hg=54&fg=05

That piece connects the front panel via 6 small screws. That piece is also responsible for the action of cracking the 2 panels when the roof is in the vent position - it has a small slider system that makes that happen.

DDutchman 11-12-2012 03:31 AM

Panorama Roof Header
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here is a photo of the larger header panel that is lodged under the metal weather(?) strip. The smaller on is clear in the back.

I will have to find a better camera than my iPhone to take more detailed pictures of the tracks.

What actually drives the two panels back and forth? Is the larger one supposed to go to the front while the smaller one is in the back? I assume that is the cas because of the sizes of the roof windows. Until I accidentally slid the smaller one into the back it was under the front window about 10cm back.

I have more angles in the pictures if you need them. thanks!

salbol1 11-12-2012 09:00 AM

3 Attachment(s)
The front panel is the one that is driven by the rear motor. The trailing panel is hooked to the front one via 2 small tabs that are attached to the "vent screen"
Attachment 349255 Attachment 349256.

Perhaps the pieces that you see which are broken are these tabs? This is also why you are able to slide the rear panel on it's own - it's not connected to anything in terms of be driven forward or reverse.

The panels themselves are actually the same size, but only the front one is driven by the "headliner lock mechanism" and the rear panel is drug along by the tabs in the pictures above. this mechanism is also what the vent mesh panel locks into. As the panels are split apart when it vents, the small tab remains in the channel on the rear panel - and the pulley system allows the panels to split to show the vent mesh.

The channels that the vent screen slide into are located at the very end of the cassette. The front screen would have to be manually cranked to the rear (this would be the rear motor, the one located under the "bump" in the headliner panel in front of the hatchback), and there is also this "stop" piece that would have to be removed before it you could re-install/repair the vent screen piece.
Attachment 349257

I don't see anyway around having to remove the sunroof cassette to be able to repair this. Because the fact that the front panel isn't moving is to be expected - the motor would have to run for that panel to move.

DDutchman 11-12-2012 04:39 PM

Vent Screen
 
From what I can see from the TIS the front section of the sliding visor is supposed to be under the vent grille and of the three tracks in back the small (trailing visor) drops to the bottom and the front visor goes to the middle still with the vent grille on top while the front sliding sunroof is on the top track under and behind the rear tilting glass roof. Is that correct?

I will have to feel the top of the rear sliding visor to see if there are any kind of hooks. If I can get it to come back out.

I did notice the the vent grille, or the front sliding visor are not square with each other. Tha could mean either one are jammed in the tracks. What keeps the vent grille attached to the front sliding visor?

I have reconciled myself to pulling down the header. I am retired, so I have the time. Any special tools necessary?

I have the sunroof repair kit. I was looking at it, today, and except for the springs with the fuzzy bristles the entire thing is plastic. From your pictures it looks to me as if those black tabs are metal, or is that just the way I saw the picture?

Please sent pictures of your progress. I will certainly benefit from your continued experience and expertise. Thanks again.

salbol1 11-12-2012 09:49 PM

1 Attachment(s)
This piece from Group 9 via the online realoem link http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...23&hg=54&fg=05
Attachment 349368
is the one that connects to the front sunshade. The trailing sunshade is the one that's in a channel, because the front one is connected to the second piece from the top in Group 9 (the one behind and to the top) via 3 small screws on each side. That is the same piece that has the sliders, and allows the 2 panels to split apart.
If the rear panel stays where it is, that's not a problem. There's no way to reattach it to the front panel without screwing it up. There's a small knob on that piece that you can only put in from the back of the channel, where it's open. Trying to force it in via the side won't work - and if it did you'd likely break something.

If you are taking down the headliner the only thing that is a bit of a pain is removing one of the rear head airbags (back in the cargo area). They are secured pretty tightly by 3 torx screws (size 27). If you don't have torx bits, this might be a good reason to buy a set - because I had to put some pretty heavy umpff behind getting those screws out. One side needs to be removed so you can effectively slide out the headliner.

Those tabs are plastic, so if they look metal, it's not the case. You have all 3 kits, or only the sunshade one?

DDutchman 11-13-2012 04:46 PM

Panorama Roof Repair Kit
 
1 Attachment(s)
More great info. Three kits?

I have the Panorama Roof Repair Kit part number 54107227894. I think I have attached picture.

The link to ECS is here: http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E53-X5-...oof/ES2145031/

I was thinking the three stainless metal screws behind the vent grille was what you were referring to with some kind of slot drop provision.

I will study this. Do you have the kit numbers handy for me to gather my forces.

I am not one for forcing much of anything unless all else fails, and I think BMW designs their products to tempt one to do just that so they can sell you little plastic parts for exhorbitant prices.

salbol1 11-14-2012 07:44 AM

This is actually the part you need if you are doing the sunshades, 54107198619. The repair kit you posted will have you replacing the "Rear Glass Mechanism", which might not be bad, but doesn't address the issue you have at hand.

The 3 kits are:
Sunshade - 54107198619
Rear Glass Mechanism - 54107227894
Front Glass Mechanism - 54137118849

When do you need what? The Front Glass repair kit contains the drive cable that has the infamous "Tab" which gets out of alignment. If the rear glass opens and does not close, this can be a fault point. The Rear Glass mechanism main components are the pieces located under the triangle "wedge" pieces. These have the channels which the tabs slide into, and move the rear glass forward (UP) and back (DOWN).

DDutchman 11-14-2012 06:40 PM

Preventive Maintenance
 
Just goes to show a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. So my thought is that if I have to dismantle the roof to ascertain the exact problem it might be wise to use all three kits to obviate the need to do it again. Is the tab issue the one the Australian gentleman, Howard, I think, recommends removing so the rear glass will stay down and stationary?

Before I go much further I believe I will reconnect the system to see what actually happens unless you recommend against it.

Another new adventure!

Thanks once more.

salbol1 11-14-2012 09:43 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Yeah, you're going to have to remove the headliner and cassette to do the sunshade repairs -so you might as well repair it all at once. BTW, the torx bits on the rear head airbags are T-27, which are best removed on one side by a torx socket, since they have a pretty high torque applied.

I'd probably hook up the roof and see what actually works on it prior to removal. There should be 3 plugs that need to be connected, shown here:

Attachment 349621

1 & 2 are for the controller itself, and 3 is for the motor. I wouldn't be surprised if when you hook it up, it might not work. In order to initialize the roof, the headliner has to be closed, as well as the glass being flush. When I first hooked up my roof and plugged everything in, I was a bit freaked out because my headliner was installed retracted, and I didn't manually crank it closed before trying to initialize. It didn't work. After I unplugged the motor (IMPORTANT WHEN MANUALLY CRANKING!!), and cranked it closed, then it initialized.

The TAB fix that Howard described is what we're trying to avoid having to do - but if you're good with just the main window venting, then I'd have at the repair described by him! It's also a matter of cost since you can just do the Headliner portion for about $160 (plus shipping), whereas all 3 sets are ~$600. But, the cassette will come out to do the headliner.

Hints before you remove the cassette:
1) Mark the location/orientation of the cassette against the body with a scribe/paint, etc.
2) On the "D" column, when removing go ahead and also mark and then remove the anchor points for the tailgate locks (held by 2 12MM bolts). Makes it much easier to unhook the top portion of the panel from the rear of the headliner
3) Remove the main glass to make the cassette easier to handle. If your roof doesn't open/close, unhook the motor connector and manually crank to the vent position to make the removal of the 6 screws holding it in easier to reach (after removing the gaiters, of course)
4) Removing the cassette can't be done by yourself !!
5) Replace the sunroof seal for another $35 while you're at it. Easy to do while everything is out - and I've been told that once the seal has taken the shape of an installed roof glass, it's prone to leaking upon re-install.

DDutchman 11-15-2012 04:34 PM

All good
 
I will do all those things. I had to buy a T-55 torx socket half inch drive when I installed the trailer hitch. I had most up to that size before then.

. I think I posted that the dealer disconnected the switch but not the motor. I was sitting in the car waiting for someone. No key. No fiddling at the time. I had installed a new battery several days before.

All of a sudden the front glass retracted about 10-15 cm. I now wonder if the individual saved settings include the ability of moonroof to open because the driver wants that as the norm, like the steering wheel. Is that possible? Otherwise I have a ghost.

It was then I learned about manual cranking and pulled the top center console. I left the rear module out because I figured I would have to do it again; maybe during repair. I researched what that module was for. I think it is the motion sensor for the alarm system. Alarm works without it as I learned when I pressed a key button too many times.

Who do you buy your parts from?

My current major project is wiring, plumbing and setting up a new workshop. That is keeping me busy. It is where my tools will be. It being Florida I have put in a large carport. Unfortunately, it is unseasonably cold. Not like Canada, but too chilly to work on cars.

That gives me time to finish the workshop and get the parts together.

Keep posting. I will follow in your footsteps, if I am able.

salbol1 11-15-2012 08:54 PM

I buy all of my parts from BMA in California - talk to Patrick and tell him Sean from Kansas City told you to call.....

racebmwm3 11-17-2012 05:23 AM

Subscribed.

racebmwm3 11-17-2012 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salbol1 (Post 7195952)
Yeah, you're going to have to remove the headliner and cassette to do the sunshade repairs -so you might as well repair it all at once. BTW, the torx bits on the rear head airbags are T-27, which are best removed on one side by a torx socket, since they have a pretty high torque applied.

I'd probably hook up the roof and see what actually works on it prior to removal. There should be 3 plugs that need to be connected, shown here:

Attachment 349621

1 & 2 are for the controller itself, and 3 is for the motor. I wouldn't be surprised if when you hook it up, it might not work. In order to initialize the roof, the headliner has to be closed, as well as the glass being flush. When I first hooked up my roof and plugged everything in, I was a bit freaked out because my headliner was installed retracted, and I didn't manually crank it closed before trying to initialize. It didn't work. After I unplugged the motor (IMPORTANT WHEN MANUALLY CRANKING!!), and cranked it closed, then it initialized.

The TAB fix that Howard described is what we're trying to avoid having to do - but if you're good with just the main window venting, then I'd have at the repair described by him! It's also a matter of cost since you can just do the Headliner portion for about $160 (plus shipping), whereas all 3 sets are ~$600. But, the cassette will come out to do the headliner.

Hints before you remove the cassette:
1) Mark the location/orientation of the cassette against the body with a scribe/paint, etc.
2) On the "D" column, when removing go ahead and also mark and then remove the anchor points for the tailgate locks (held by 2 12MM bolts). Makes it much easier to unhook the top portion of the panel from the rear of the headliner
3) Remove the main glass to make the cassette easier to handle. If your roof doesn't open/close, unhook the motor connector and manually crank to the vent position to make the removal of the 6 screws holding it in easier to reach (after removing the gaiters, of course)
4) Removing the cassette can't be done by yourself !!
5) Replace the sunroof seal for another $35 while you're at it. Easy to do while everything is out - and I've been told that once the seal has taken the shape of an installed roof glass, it's prone to leaking upon re-install.

Where is that control box located?

salbol1 11-17-2012 06:01 PM

By the front motor underneath the console that houses the overhead light, sunroof switch, etc.

racebmwm3 11-18-2012 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salbol1 (Post 7200572)
By the front motor underneath the console that houses the overhead light, sunroof switch, etc.

How do you go about removing that console piece?

[edit] nevermind, checked the manual.

bigugly fab 11-18-2012 12:05 PM

if you think you are going to rebuild this panoramic roof with those kits, have never done this and dont have repair instructions- lemme say this:
good luck and god speed.

they are a pain in the neck unless you know what you are doing and have the proper repair procedures and training.

racebmwm3 11-18-2012 02:58 PM

The fix worked! Saved me $3k!
Thought it wasn't going to work at first since I could not get the roof to reinitialize afterwards. Turns out my battery was drained too low from all the testing. Charged it up and reinitialized and I'm good!
Thanks guys.


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