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-   -   another battery thread (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535385)

mpc1971 04-18-2011 07:10 AM

another battery thread
 
fellas,

my battery indicator window on my 645 is black, so far ,touch wood it hasn't caused any errors/ problems. left door open the other day while doing something and i got a "bong" and idrive said battery low. but car started fine.

since the wife now has a run around the car doesn't get used as much, so proberly not getting a good charge when out and about.

i then noticed the thread about the ctek 7002

so first question is , is it too late for my battery. do i need to get a new one before the problems start

or
can i get myself a ctek and get it charged ??

also is the ctek 7002 the same as a 7000. from what i can find it sounds like the 7002 is for you fellas in the states and the 7000 is for us in the u.k ???

anyone ??
wheres yorgi , he'll know

Amanintown 04-18-2011 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpc1971 (Post 6003914)
fellas,

my battery indicator window on my 645 is black, so far ,touch wood it hasn't caused any errors/ problems. left door open the other day while doing something and i got a "bong" and idrive said battery low. but car started fine.

since the wife now has a run around the car doesn't get used as much, so proberly not getting a good charge when out and about.

i then noticed the thread about the ctek 7002

so first question is , is it too late for my battery. do i need to get a new one before the problems start

or
can i get myself a ctek and get it charged ??

also is the ctek 7002 the same as a 7000. from what i can find it sounds like the 7002 is for you fellas in the states and the 7000 is for us in the u.k ???

anyone ??
wheres yorgi , he'll know


Get a new battery like, NOW or else it will die on you one fine day which is not very far away without further warning :mad:

645/333 04-18-2011 09:03 AM

Black indicator on battery
 
what the black battery indicator shows is the battery is below an acceptable charge level. You can purchase a Ctek 7000 in the UK, that is what mine is !! You can use the recover battery feature on this charger and you may well get the battery back to full charge. Mine was in the black, I bought the charger, did the recover cycle , ( but left the boot open and moved stuff from around the battery just in case ???).
As you are using your car very little do as I do and do a charge on a weekly basis, then you may not have to purchase a new battery.
There are lots of comments about where to charge from ie engine bay or boot , I have a ctek wire permanently connected to the terminals around the battery and charge through this......in the boot. BMW sell these in their parts department or buy from Ctek. either way makes charging very convenient.

Yorgi 04-18-2011 09:19 AM

I looked into this a bit before buying the 7002.

The CTEK 7002 is a newer version of the 7000 but both are essentially the same. The 7002 has newly designed battery leads (fully covered in plastic for 7002 vs exposed ~1" tips on the 7000) and a slightly different battery recondition (RECOND) mode. The 7000 uses 16.0V for 4 hours in RECOND mode where the 7002 uses 15.7V for 0.5 to 4 hours. I guess CTECK determined the full 4 hours @ 16V was too aggressive in some cases.

CTEK makes separate versions for North America vs the rest of the world. North America gets the Multi US 7002 and UK gets the Multi XS 7000. I don't think there is a 7002 version for the UK but I never really looked into that.

mpc1971 04-18-2011 09:40 AM

cracking info guys.

645 where in uk are you ? is yours 04 ?

whats the general idea on the charging point then ? battery posts or under the hood?

really dont wanna fry my battery and surrounding parts by doing on the posts but if 645 has done it , does that mean mine should be good? there seems to be so many diiferent ideas on this.

where does yorgi charge his from ??

cheers fellas

Yorgi 04-18-2011 10:09 AM

The Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS) is one of things that has been bugging me since I am not 100% clear on the details of how it works.

The TIS says that you should charge from the terminals under the hood and not bypass the IBS but the TIS also has instructions about charging batteries when removed from the car.

Until I can determine if it's 100% safe to charge directly I always charge from the terminals under the hod.

TxTaz 04-18-2011 10:33 AM

I charge from under the hood.
Here is the rational behind it...
IBS monitors the charge to the battery over the life of the battery. As batteries get older they require a higher charge voltage to maintain a constant current (due to sulfate buildup). Chargers use varying currents for different charges. A float is a lower current and a recon or sulfate breaking charge is higher. The concept is to break sulfates off the plates and keep them in solution where they are most effective and makes for a larger surface area on the plates for electrochemical reactions (the way a battery works).
So let's say you always charge directly to the battery, the charge voltage goes up over time and IBS doesn't know this. IBS directly controls the charge from the alternator and will regulate a lower voltage hence lower current because it has not monitored previous chargings. IBS follows a predefined battery life cycle which includes time, temperature and current if it is complete.

At some point in time, IBS will be providing lower current to the battery than the car load. Eventually you will have a dead battery unless you charge it between uses.

I have not found any technical information on this, only block diagrams. However I do know battery and charger theories quit well.

645/333 04-18-2011 10:50 AM

Battery Charging
 
I am interested in this charging from under the hood or charging at the battery?
I don't mean directly across the terminals on the battery, but using the connections in the boot area. The terminal in the engine +ve (red) is wired directly to the battery with no intermediate connections or circuitry.
The -ve being the body connection. Therefore there is no difference between doing the charge at the battery as opposed to the battery +ve terminal under the hood. What difference the impedance of the cable ??????? don't think so !
BMW officially sell wiring kits which connect directly to the +ve terminal of the battery and the _ve or ground of the body. They have plug connectors which can be put into the rear internal boot sill to allow the charger to be plugged in as a matter of convenience without having to lift the floor carpet over the battery compartment.
The IBS is not impacted by charging at either location...... so why are people so intent on saying only charge at the terminals in the engine compartment............ sorry but it does not make technical sense ????????

tampamark 04-18-2011 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 645/333 (Post 6004462)
I am interested in this charging from under the hood or charging at the battery?
I don't mean directly across the terminals on the battery, but using the connections in the boot area. The terminal in the engine +ve (red) is wired directly to the battery with no intermediate connections or circuitry.
The -ve being the body connection. Therefore there is no difference between doing the charge at the battery as opposed to the battery +ve terminal under the hood. What difference the impedance of the cable ??????? don't think so !
BMW officially sell wiring kits which connect directly to the +ve terminal of the battery and the _ve or ground of the body. They have plug connectors which can be put into the rear internal boot sill to allow the charger to be plugged in as a matter of convenience without having to lift the floor carpet over the battery compartment.
The IBS is not impacted by charging at either location...... so why are people so intent on saying only charge at the terminals in the engine compartment............ sorry but it does not make technical sense ????????

Your BMW is a control freak. It wants to know everything that goes on, especially when related to the battery. The TIS manual specifically calls for charging the battery using the jumper terminals so that the system can monitor the charge even when the car is off and you are using an external charger. That way the electrical current flows through the IBS circuitry.

Of course, if you replaced your battery and never registered it, then what does it matter?

I am not sure if the boot area is before or after the IBS circuit?

645/333 04-18-2011 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tampamark (Post 6004547)
Your BMW is a control freak. It wants to know everything that goes on, especially when related to the battery. The TIS manual specifically calls for charging the battery using the jumper terminals so that the system can monitor the charge even when the car is off and you are using an external charger. That way the electrical current flows through the IBS circuitry.

Of course, if you replaced your battery and never registered it, then what does it matter?

I am not sure if the boot area is before or after the IBS circuit?

Checked the 6 series wiring diagram and I believe the IBS circuit connects across the battery directly, then into the control circuitry. So the physical charging of the battery and the position at which you charge the battery has no real consequence to the IBS. There clearly is a feed to the alternator from the IBS, which supports the view of the alternator managing the level of charge to the battery and the need to register the battery when replaced. having said this I think if you maintain the current to the car when you change a battery then you would not have to have it registered by BMW.
What the wiring diagram does show is why you should only use the engine terminal to jump start the car, as the terminal is directly connected to the starter motor,

tampamark 04-18-2011 01:33 PM

Good information. I will leave it to the technical folks like Yorgi and Txtaz...and you...to hash this one out. All I know is what the TIS calls out. :dunno:

Sounds like your wiring diagram has come in real handy. How do you get that?

645/333 04-18-2011 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tampamark (Post 6004893)
Good information. I will leave it to the technical folks like Yorgi and Txtaz...and you...to hash this one out. All I know is what the TIS calls out. :dunno:

Sounds like your wiring diagram has come in real handy. How do you get that?

I have the wiring diagrams for all BMW's upto 2008-9 +? with the WDS dvd, comes with the EPC and the TIS, most people buy off Ebay if you can read electrical diagrams it is a must, especially for all of the control/ electrical issues on these cars. Has a lot more info on various systems within the car. Runs via Internet explorer.

TxTaz 04-18-2011 02:39 PM

645/333, if you could send me the diagrams I can tell exactly what is happening. I know there is a current shunt in the system to indicate charge current. However, I have a sneaking feeling that IBS may only be using voltage as the indicator of battery condition when it should be a volt/amp ratio vs time. A circuit diagram will show this.

I might have WDS, not sure. Just got back from my 5000 mile trip and bushed. I'll check in a day or two.

lc1412 04-18-2011 08:16 PM

Interesting read about the charging from hood vs direct. I've been charging directly to the battery for a couple on months now (Battery Tender)...........:confused:

645/333 04-19-2011 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lc1412 (Post 6005724)
Interesting read about the charging from hood vs direct. I've been charging directly to the battery for a couple on months now (Battery Tender)...........:confused:

When we say at the battery, I mean at the battery +ve terminal and the vehicle ground -ve which is part of the bodywork.
It does not mean across the battery +ve and -ve terminals direct......... the only time this is done is when the battery is physically out of the car.......... 'not teaching granny to suck eggs'
but clarifying the point.

TxTaz 04-22-2011 06:12 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Turns out I have WDS. Imagine that. :rolleyes:
Here is the block diagram of BSD which has IBS in it (labeled Battery Sensor).
Attachment 275586

From the looks of it, there is no difference in charging from the terminals or the battery directly. However this is a functional block diagram and not a schematic. The tap at X13769 and X6404 could be a current sensing shunt which would suggest using the terminals under the hood in order to register the charge going to the battery. There must be a reason for BMW suggesting using this so I'll continue using the terminals to charge.

645/333 04-24-2011 04:18 PM

WDS Battery issue
 
Hi, I agree that they are just block diagrams and don't break down the internal circuitry of the control module. What one can do is follow the wiring as this does indicate terminal and connection points. At the end of the day it has to be down to personal decision, I have my battery charger set to charge at the battery and am happy with my choice.
What I do enjoy on this forum is the informed debate which ultimately leads to good solutions and advice.
ps. any bets on someone starting a new battery thread without having checked all this good information added to the forum as to which is best practice???

tampamark 04-24-2011 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 645/333 (Post 6019800)
any bets on someone starting a new battery thread without having checked all this good information added to the forum as to which is best practice???

That is a losing bet!

I for one have enjoyed reading this thread.


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