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Spiderm0n 05-25-2011 05:07 AM

Lance Armstrong - cheating liar?
 
The 60 minutes segment was devastating. As a long time Lance fan, I no longer believe him. :(

tagheuer 05-25-2011 05:12 AM

WGAS

professional cycling is a joke as far as drugs go.

Its a never ending "he said she said", and Lance never tested positive during his career.

People will argue about this until the end of time, and its very unlikely any smoking gun evidence will ever be discovered, so what's the point? :dunno:

Dave 330i 05-25-2011 05:43 AM

Please tell me it ain't so. :rolleyes:

johnc_22 05-25-2011 05:44 AM

Duh?

Spiderm0n 05-25-2011 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tagheuer (Post 6088882)
Its a never ending "he said she said", and Lance never tested positive during his career.

People will argue about this until the end of time, and its very unlikely any smoking gun evidence will ever be discovered, so what's the point? :dunno:

The latest testimony is that Lance DID fail a drug test and that it was swept under the rug.
Quote:

Hamilton said Armstrong told him about testing positive for erythropoietin, or EPO, at the Tour of Switzerland in 2001.

“Lance’s people and people from the other side -- I believe from the governing body of the sport -- figured out a way for it to go away,” Hamilton said in the “60 Minutes” interview.

The director of the Swiss laboratory that performed the test met with Armstrong and then-U.S. Postal Service team manager Johan Bruyneel, “60 Minutes” reported.

The meeting was arranged by the International Cycling Union, or UCI, the report said. The Swiss lab director told the Federal Bureau of Investigation that a UCI representative wanted Armstrong’s suspicious test to go no further, according to the “60 Minutes” report.

M&K 05-25-2011 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiderm0n (Post 6089075)
The latest testimony is that Lance DID fail a drug test and that it was swept under the rug.

Still just one guy pointing a finger - he's just pointing it at more people now.

Why is this still a story? Because virtually every racer was taking PEDs at that time, Lance was doing all the winning, and he never tested positive. Do I think he was doping? Pretty likely. Did it give him an advantage? Doubtful, as I believe everyone else was too, so the playing field was still level.

tagheuer 05-25-2011 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&K (Post 6089159)
Still just one guy pointing a finger - he's just pointing it at more people now.

Why is this still a story? Because virtually every racer was taking PEDs at that time, Lance was doing all the winning, and he never tested positive. Do I think he was doping? Pretty likely. Did it give him an advantage? Doubtful, as I believe everyone else was too, so the playing field was still level.

+1.

Every time one of his teammates wants to sell a book, etc. this comes back around.

Nothing will be resolved unless and until there is a positive, irrefutable drug test and that is very unlikely.

jonathan2263 05-25-2011 08:12 AM

Tyler Hamilton could find a much easier way to sell a book. He was subpoenaed to testify under oath before a grand jury. The deal for limited immunity that he was given states that if his testimony is found to be false, he will be open for prosecution for not only drug trafficking, fraud, misappropriation of funds, among other things, but would almost certainly spend time in jail for perjury. I have met and spoken with Tyler Hamilton on several occasions (the bike industry is a small world) and he always struck me as an intelligent person. I'm sure he's not stupid enough to go through all of that to sell a book that would sell just as well do to the content, without perjuring himself. In 2004, Bell Sport were giving out buttons at the Interbike trade show that said "I believe Tyler". I didn't believe Tyler then, I do now.

This issue is about so much more than who doped to win a bike race. I'm sure they all did. From the perspective of the FDA, it's about who was using government funds ( sponsorship from USPS) to run a drug trafficking ring. And to the world of pro cycling, it's about a system so flawed that it would rather cover up the reality of a failed hero than truly try to clean itself up and face the hard task square in the face.

If Tylers accusations of a coverup can be proven, the entire cycling hierarchy will fall. People will be jailed, people will lose their jobs, and in the USA, cycling will once again disappear from the public eye.

Did Lance dope? Of course he did, he's a pro athlete after all. Did he win 7 tours because of it? No, he won because he worked harder than everyone else. But quite clearly, this issue is about so much more than the reputation of one dirty athlete, it's about the entire cycling, and IOC anti-doping effort.

And when it's all done, it's going to be fun watching Lance apologize to all his friends he's tried to paint as liars.

jonathan2263 05-25-2011 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&K (Post 6089159)
Still just one guy pointing a finger - he's just pointing it at more people now.

Why is this still a story? Because virtually every racer was taking PEDs at that time, Lance was doing all the winning, and he never tested positive. Do I think he was doping? Pretty likely. Did it give him an advantage? Doubtful, as I believe everyone else was too, so the playing field was still level.

Just to reiterate, it's not "just one guy pointing a finger" it's one guy with really nothing to gain or lose testifying under oath.

chivas 05-25-2011 08:42 AM

it is a big deal since he single handily made cycling in the states popular and on the map.

personally, i think he did dope but being he's such a big name and was backed by the USPS, any wrong doing would be swept under the rug and be forgotten about.

all but 1 2nd and 3rd place finishers were tested positive so....

hockeynut 05-25-2011 09:14 AM

Sad if true.

tagheuer 05-25-2011 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathan2263 (Post 6089263)
Tyler Hamilton could find a much easier way to sell a book. He was subpoenaed to testify under oath before a grand jury. The deal for limited immunity that he was given states that if his testimony is found to be false, he will be open for prosecution for not only drug trafficking, fraud, misappropriation of funds, among other things, but would almost certainly spend time in jail for perjury. I have met and spoken with Tyler Hamilton on several occasions (the bike industry is a small world) and he always struck me as an intelligent person. I'm sure he's not stupid enough to go through all of that to sell a book that would sell just as well do to the content, without perjuring himself. In 2004, Bell Sport were giving out buttons at the Interbike trade show that said "I believe Tyler". I didn't believe Tyler then, I do now.

This issue is about so much more than who doped to win a bike race. I'm sure they all did. From the perspective of the FDA, it's about who was using government funds ( sponsorship from USPS) to run a drug trafficking ring. And to the world of pro cycling, it's about a system so flawed that it would rather cover up the reality of a failed hero than truly try to clean itself up and face the hard task square in the face.

If Tylers accusations of a coverup can be proven, the entire cycling hierarchy will fall. People will be jailed, people will lose their jobs, and in the USA, cycling will once again disappear from the public eye.

Did Lance dope? Of course he did, he's a pro athlete after all. Did he win 7 tours because of it? No, he won because he worked harder than everyone else. But quite clearly, this issue is about so much more than the reputation of one dirty athlete, it's about the entire cycling, and IOC anti-doping effort.

And when it's all done, it's going to be fun watching Lance apologize to all his friends he's tried to paint as liars.

Mark my words and revisit this thread in a year or two. I am betting that no one will be criminally charged. I'm a lawyer, the govt. would have to prove all of these allegations beyond a reasonable doubt. Of course its a very high burden of proof.

It ain't gonna happen.

Trying to morph this into a criminal enterprise / drug racketeering case is absurd. Don't prosecutors have something better to do? Chase real drug dealers who are selling to kids, not professional athletes.

We've seen this in other sports, baseball and football, etc....professional athletes blantantly lie to grand juries, they aren't jail. Big deal.

Everyone in cycling does drugs, and everyone knows it. Where is the coverup? :dunno:

carve 05-25-2011 10:41 AM

Where can I watch it?

IMHO, these guys are ALL super-elite to begin with. It's also well known that MANY of them dope up to the detectable limit, because sometimes they go a little too far and get busted. It happens all the time. How likely is it that a guy who didn't dope at all dominated all these dopers for so many years?

Of course, that just puts the dopers against the dopers, and he never took enough to be detectable so probably didn't push it as hard as others, so Lance is still a bad-ass. But I think all the top riders do it, and have thought that for many years. Hell- doping is becoming popular in amatuer racing!

jonathan2263 05-25-2011 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tagheuer (Post 6089451)
Mark my words and revisit this thread in a year or two. I am betting that no one will be criminally charged. I'm a lawyer, the govt. would have to prove all of these allegations beyond a reasonable doubt. Of course its a very high burden of proof.

It ain't gonna happen.

Trying to morph this into a criminal enterprise / drug racketeering case is absurd. Don't prosecutors have something better to do? Chase real drug dealers who are selling to kids, not professional athletes.

We've seen this in other sports, baseball and football, etc....professional athletes blantantly lie to grand juries, they aren't jail. Big deal.

Everyone in cycling does drugs, and everyone knows it. Where is the coverup? :dunno:

The drug racketeering case will come about if the FDA and Jeff Novitsky can prove that government money was used to run an organized doping ring. It may not be cocaine or heroin, but it's still trafficking in controlled substances.

The coverup is the alleged positive test at the 2001 Tour De Suisse. If it can be proven that Lance gave an "adverse analytical finding" (positive for dope) and the lab dismissed the results at the urging of the UCI or any other authoritative body, that is what will topple the cycling hierarchy. If it happened, there will be a paper trail. And if paperwork is missing, according to testing protocol, that's almost as bad. If that's true, it'll be the end of the Lance Myth, but it will be far worse for cycling in general.

Ajax 05-25-2011 01:29 PM

I am a Lance fan, but I'm starting to have my doubts.

Hamilton isn't just one guy saying this, he's now the third or fourth ex-teammate to say so, and he gave a very detailed description of how it was done. On top of that, according to his statement, Lance wasn't just a participant, but took an active, almost managerial role, in the process.

It's one thing to sell a book, it's another to perjor yourself in front of Congress. Just ask Roger Clemmons.

brkf 05-25-2011 03:59 PM

don't care. like so many other entertainers I do not understand our culture's obsession with destroying them. he served his purpose... he entertained millions. what drugs he took, who he screwed, how he lied, it's all totally irrelevant.

dboy11 05-25-2011 04:18 PM

Having followed pro-cycling since the 80's and an avid roadie. I don't doubt that there was doping even with Lance. No one can ride those distances day after day and not have something. All the said he had a 20 plus year career, at one point was the most tested athletic of any professional sport (he was quoted a over 600 times) and not once tested positive. Do I think that he was smart enough to be the system, maybe.

IMO all of these riders coming out of the wood work now to point fingers have some motive. Not sure what that is but there is one.

What I think is they should adopt a no tolerance policy moving forward. Test as they want and if they test positive your banned for a period of time.

This going back to re-test the urine from years back is ridiculous IMO. With today's testing capabilities they haven't been able to get a positive. why now are they willing to listen to hear say? Because someone has a motive in it!

London Talking 05-25-2011 04:31 PM

I believe that L'Equipe (major French sports daily newspaper) outed Lance Armstrong as a drug cheat about 6-7 years ago. They also claimed to have sourced Lance Armstrong's urine samples going back to 1999 which contained performance enhancing drugs. Lance and his supporters used to say that it was just the French being typically sour grapes about an American dominating the Tour De France. He remains very unpopular in France and has been booed in the past. It looks like they were on to something.

French cover story from 2005 (translation "the Armstrong Lie")

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2...age793002g.jpg

Edit: more on the story here: http://velonews.competitor.com/2005/...n-99-tour_8740

dboy11 05-25-2011 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by London Talking (Post 6090431)
I believ that L'Equipe (major French sports daily newspaper) outed Lance Armstrong as a drug cheat about 6-7 years ago. They also claimed to have sourced Lance Armstrong's urine samples going back to 1999 which contained performance enhancing drugs. Lance and his supporters used to say that it was just the French being typically sour grapes about an American dominating the Tour De France. He remains very unpopular in France and has been booed in the past. It looks like they were on to something.

French cover story from 2005 (translation "the Armstrong Lie")

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2...age793002g.jpg

The only thing that they are bitter about is they can't win at their own race.

Its a which hunt is all it is. If it wasn't lance that was winning it would be someone else. ask Landis the same question

TRS550 05-25-2011 06:04 PM

Better cycling through pharmacuticals.

All the skinny little $hits are dopers and have been for years. It's comical to watch the finger pointing.

hunterz4 05-25-2011 09:31 PM

Free Barry Bonds:dunno:

ademitt 05-26-2011 07:12 AM

Doping in cycling has been going on for years, this is nothing new. Eddy Merckx tested positive several times in his career. Tom Simpson died on the Ventoux and was pumped up on amphetamines. Moser was blood doping in an era when it was permitted.

There is so much pressure on these riders to win races that require the greatest of human endurance that they will do anything to get there.

There is no doubt that Lance is dirty. Members of his old teams like Hamilton and Landis are now coming out and saying what Frankie Andreau said years ago. The fact that he doped does not bother me as much as the way he has demeaned and crushed people who have dared to speak out along the way like Greg Lemond and Frankie and Betsy Andreau.

If Lance does get charged, watch the games begin exposing Livestrong as being the personal cash cow for Lance that it truly is. Karma is a bitch sometimes.

jonathan2263 05-26-2011 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ademitt (Post 6091641)
doping in cycling has been going on for years, this is nothing new. Eddy merckx tested positive several times in his career. Tom simpson died on the ventoux and was pumped up on amphetamines. Moser was blood doping in an era when it was permitted.

There is so much pressure on these riders to win races that require the greatest of human endurance that they will do anything to get there.

There is no doubt that lance is dirty. Members of his old teams like hamilton and landis are now coming out and saying what frankie andreau said years ago. the fact that he doped does not bother me as much as the way he has demeaned and crushed people who have dared to speak out along the way like greg lemond and frankie and betsy andreau.

if lance does get charged, watch the games begin exposing livestrong as being the personal cash cow for lance that it truly is. Karma is a bitch sometimes.

+1

dboy11 05-26-2011 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ademitt (Post 6091641)
Doping in cycling has been going on for years, this is nothing new. Eddy Merckx tested positive several times in his career. Tom Simpson died on the Ventoux and was pumped up on amphetamines. Moser was blood doping in an era when it was permitted.

There is so much pressure on these riders to win races that require the greatest of human endurance that they will do anything to get there.

There is no doubt that Lance is dirty. Members of his old teams like Hamilton and Landis are now coming out and saying what Frankie Andreau said years ago. The fact that he doped does not bother me as much as the way he has demeaned and crushed people who have dared to speak out along the way like Greg Lemond and Frankie and Betsy Andreau.

If Lance does get charged, watch the games begin exposing Livestrong as being the personal cash cow for Lance that it truly is. Karma is a bitch sometimes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathan2263 (Post 6092096)
+1


And if someone stepped out in public and accused you of whatever, you wouldn't say something in your defense? If he is dirty or has been over the legal limits, then prove it. So far after more than 600 tests they haven't been able to. I'm not defending Lance, but he has all the rights to fire back IMO

ademitt 05-26-2011 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dboy11 (Post 6092133)
And if someone stepped out in public and accused you of whatever, you wouldn't say something in your defense? If he is dirty or has been over the legal limits, then prove it. So far after more than 600 tests they haven't been able to. I'm not defending Lance, but he has all the rights to fire back IMO

His approach has always been shoot first and ask questions later. Remember the lawsuit between Lemond and Trek? Greg speaks up and Trek cancels their contract with him to build bikes. How about Filippo Simeoni in the 2004 tour? Same pattern.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dboy11 (Post 6092133)
If he is dirty or has been over the legal limits, then prove it. So far after more than 600 tests they haven't been able to.

Wrong. 2001 Tour de Suisse. Positive test that was covered up by the UCI in exchange for a $125,000 gift by the egotesticle to the UCI for research into doping. Give me a eff'n break. I'm just sick of the lies and the blatant arrogance and hypocrisy.

His real concern is that the Livestrong house of cards may come down once someone really looks at Livestong's activities and the public realizes that they are a sham too.

The real losers here are the people fighting Cancer who look up to him as an inspiration.


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