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-   -   Considering X5 and Cayenne (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=578363)

Suraj 10-30-2011 09:19 PM

Considering X5 and Cayenne
 
I am planning to get an SUV in the next couple of months. It will be the first one in our family. So far I have been very happy with the 07 530i. Moving from car to truck would mean some sacrifice on handling and cornering, I am gradually making up my mind to get more comfortable with that.

Mainly, we are considering X5 and Cayenne. And planning to lease it - this is another area where I am very new. Today I called both dealerships and they are selling these vehicles so fast, that they have none for test drive. Vehicles are arriving pre-sold. The Porsche dealer said something which I found strange, "On base Cayenne with MSRP of 65K with options, and 20% down (yes so much down)", lease payments are $1200-1500/month!!!


Based on research so far, here are my thoughts on the vehicles

X5

  • lightly loaded as base options are fairly ok
  • preferably the 5.0i (would be a good upgrade from 530i)
  • M-sport package
  • 3rd row seating
  • monthly payment < $900, can consider 3.5i or 35d if it breaks budget

Cayenne
  • Almost every 3rd car in my area is a luxury brand (MB, BMW, Audi, Lexus). So I like that Porsche are not everywhere on the road
  • preferably the S model (would be a good upgrade from 530i), otherwise I hear the V6 is also good (comparable to 530i)
  • Big wheels like 19s or 20s
  • 3rd row seating - this is a con
  • monthly payment < $900, can consider base if it breaks budget

Please share yoour thougths. Did you consider Cayenne? How much is your monthly payment? How do you feel about 35i vs 50i?

Thanks in advance.

Matt_UKTX 10-30-2011 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suraj (Post 6411707)
I am planning to get an SUV in the next couple of months. It will be the first one in our family. So far I have been very happy with the 07 530i. Moving from car to truck would mean some sacrifice on handling and cornering, I am gradually making up my mind to get more comfortable with that.

Mainly, we are considering X5 and Cayenne. And planning to lease it - this is another area where I am very new. Today I called both dealerships and they are selling these vehicles so fast, that they have none for test drive. Vehicles are arriving pre-sold. The Porsche dealer said something which I found strange, "On base Cayenne with MSRP of 65K with options, and 20% down (yes so much down)", lease payments are $1200-1500/month!!!


Based on research so far, here are my thoughts on the vehicles

X5

  • lightly loaded as base options are fairly ok
  • preferably the 5.0i (would be a good upgrade from 530i)
  • M-sport package
  • 3rd row seating
  • monthly payment < $900, can consider 3.5i or 35d if it breaks budget

Cayenne
  • Almost every 3rd car in my area is a luxury brand (MB, BMW, Audi, Lexus). So I like that Porsche are not everywhere on the road
  • preferably the S model (would be a good upgrade from 530i), otherwise I hear the V6 is also good (comparable to 530i)
  • Big wheels like 19s or 20s
  • 3rd row seating - this is a con
  • monthly payment < $900, can consider base if it breaks budget

Please share yoour thougths. Did you consider Cayenne? How much is your monthly payment? How do you feel about 35i vs 50i?

Thanks in advance.

To me, the Cayenne is simply a VW Toureg with a different badge. The base V6 model actually has a VW engine. The S at least uses a Porsche engine. When I drove the Porsche, I found the fit and finish to be of a lower standard than the X5. In fact, I'd probably consider the Toureg or Q7 superior than the Porsche in that one aspect.

I do think the Porsche looks great from the outside... Nice lines, and of course, it's a Porsche. However, I honestly think the X5 is a way better driving machine. The Range Rover Sport is also a nice car, but awful depreciation and reliability.

Good luck in your choice :)

hyde 10-30-2011 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_UKTX (Post 6411817)
To me, the Cayenne is simply a VW Toureg with a different badge.

That's exactly what I thought when I was considering my upgrade. And I was surprised to see people paying $50k for VW Touareg.

DLadd 10-31-2011 04:55 AM

We drove the Cayenne and did all the analysis before landing on the X5 ourselves. Not sure if you have children, but their input was important especially when it came to the comfort of the rear seat. Our 13 year old son was all excited about the prospect of adding a Porsche to the fleet until he rode in the back seat....absolutely hated it.

We found the panoramic sunroof in the X5 to be a very nice advantage over the Cayenne too.

UncleJ 10-31-2011 08:27 AM

Sur, make sure that you actually drive a NEW Porsche Cayenne. The new one is vastly improved over previous years' -- it is a significant difference. Many folks who have poor opinions of the Cayenne are referring to their experiences with previous years V6. The GTS, and Turbo Cayennes have always been good. The knock that it is a rebadged T-egg just doesn't hold water. So then would be the Q7 which is clearly not, even though Audi (like Porsche now) is a member of the VW group. Yes, they have the same basic body shell and some chassis parts but Porsche adds their own touch. At some point the new Porsche V6, the one used in the Panamera, will find its way into the base Cayenne and at that point it will be hard to knock it as a badge job. The new X5 50 turbo will be faster than the S Cayenne, but not by that much. The base X5 30 turbo is also faster than the base Cayenne. However the X5's are thick on the ground up in your area, as they are here in the valley, so it seems like you are seeing yourself around every corner. Parking in a mall lot around here becomes an exercise in finding your own X5 amidst the herd. Cayennes OTOH are still fairly unique and actually turn heads in this car jaded area. It is your choice and drive them all, including the new ML, CTS-V wagon and FX50 to see what you like and what fits you best. Cayennes are Porsches and to many that does make a difference.:angel:

Gaucho 10-31-2011 08:38 AM

I have tested the X53.5, 5.0, D, ML 2012 (350 and new diesel), and Cayenne V6, S and Hybrid at length and have chosen an X5d. Never interested in the Rover since I do do not want to deal with the lack of dependability and high fix-it costs.

I completely disagree that the Cayenne V6 is a Toureg with a Porsche badge. Drove both and there is NO comparison. That is just plain silly. The Cayennes have the best interior of any of these. I would put the ML second, and X5 a very close 3rd (likely a tie depending on what you appreciate in this area). Porsche is just plain beautiful. I have a Panamera and it is the same interior - just great. The V6 Cayenne is rides great and has better ride and power than the ML or 3.5. Cannot compare the V6 to the 5.0. The latter would be a much better ride overall and more powerful. The option choices in all Porsches are mind blowing! Too many and too expensive for all their models. If they had a diesel in the US they would be a slam dunk!

If you drive the Cayenne S it is more powerful than the 5.0 and certainly the 3.5 or ML. The hybrid is a great combination and extremely pwowerful. Drives very similar to the X5d and feels extremely quick off the line. Overall the hybrid is much better than the V6.

The new ML 350 and diesel are very nice. Luxurious inside and some nice new technology changes. The increase in power in both engines is very nice and they ride like a typical MB compared to BMW - softer ride and smooth. Not the exilirating ride that you get from a BMW. They are all extremely comfortable and nice in the interior. I waited to make my decision on ML vs X5 based on the power increases in the 2012. Decided against the ML due to the fact that they just looked too "mundane and soccer mom-like" - my wife's words!

This is how I would rate them:
1. Looks (exterior): Cayenne, X5 > ML >Rover
2. Looks (interior): Cayenne> X5=ML> Rover
3. Engine: S > Hybrid Cayenne > 5.0 =X5d > 3.5 = ML diesel> ML 350
4. Fun to drive: Cayenne hybrid or S > 5.0=X5d > ML diesel > ML350 = Cayenne V6
5. Cost of ownership: Rover >> Cayennes >+> MB >+ BMW
6. Overall value: BMW > MB > Cayenne > Rover ----- Value is defined as Quality divided by Cost. In the case of BMW a combination of high quality and mod cost, same for MB, Porsche is very high quality but also a disproportionate high cost, Rover is low quality overall compared to the others and high cost.

In the end we picked the X5d for the best overall value. If money was no object I think I would have chosen the Cayenne S or Hybrid. But the purchase cost of both of these is in my opinion extremely high for SUV/SAV for the purpose of how I would use it. The S gest pretty low gas mileage compared to the ML or X5 (similar to the 5.0).

The X5d was the perfect choice in my situation considering initial cost, maintenance costs, mileage, fun to drive, looks and overall value. I guess that is what would be considered compromise!

Then again opinions are like "you know what" and everyone has one!

swajames 10-31-2011 08:47 AM

Just to add to that, UncleJ and Gaucho, I feel that there's a noticeable difference in handling and in interior quality between the X5 and the Cayenne. One reason for the handling and agility advantages is that the Cayenne is much, much lighter than the X5 - with this new generation Porsche took a lot of weight out of the Cayenne, close to 500lbs in some cases, and there's a significant weight differential between the two. The Porsche is also available with a lot of additional performance hardware such as PTV (torque vectoring), PDCC (the active suspension) and PCCB (ceramic composite brakes). It's also the only one of the two SUV's available with a manual transmission should you so choose. The handling advantage to the Cayenne isn't marginal, it's quite significant - but it does cost extra, the X5 has a significant price advantage.

I also feel that the latest generation Cayenne's interior is also more upscale than the more utilitarian (but still upscale) X5.

Value wise, the X5 is a fantastic buy and anyone choosing the X5 has chosen a very good SUV. I just don't feel it's quite as accomplished as the Cayenne. Whether it's worth the difference is, of course, a totally personal choice.

Motor Trend/Truck Trend SUV of the Year - http://www.trucktrend.com/oftheyear/...nne/index.html

Cayenne vs 911 track test - the 911 wins, but it is close. This is the Turbo, but the focus is on the handling which as you can see is incredbly impressive for a large SUV:

http://youtu.be/QYZart5XXUo

WillInDenver 10-31-2011 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_UKTX (Post 6411817)
To me, the Cayenne is simply a VW Toureg with a different badge.

That is an easy assumption to make because of the corporate relationship between VW and Porsche, but it is simply not true. I'm not sure about the V6, and who would want one in a Cayenne anyway. Barring that, every performance related part in a Cayenne is Porsche-specific. The V8 engines, the transmissions, the brakes, the steering, the exhaust, and on and on.

There may be a few common parts in the interior, but the current model Touareg and Cayenne interiors look totally different to me, so I doubt it. But, frankly, the Touareg interior is of very high quality to begin with.

The new Cayenne is a big leap forward in design, to my eyes, over the original. Very classy looking SUV.

I owned a 2001 X5 and loved it. I would certainly buy another one.

Matt_UKTX 10-31-2011 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UncleJ (Post 6412188)
Sur, make sure that you actually drive a NEW Porsche Cayenne. The new one is vastly improved over previous years' -- it is a significant difference. Many folks who have poor opinions of the Cayenne are referring to their experiences with previous years V6. The GTS, and Turbo Cayennes have always been good. The knock that it is a rebadged T-egg just doesn't hold water. So then would be the Q7 which is clearly not, even though Audi (like Porsche now) is a member of the VW group. Yes, they have the same basic body shell and some chassis parts but Porsche adds their own touch. At some point the new Porsche V6, the one used in the Panamera, will find its way into the base Cayenne and at that point it will be hard to knock it as a badge job. The new X5 50 turbo will be faster than the S Cayenne, but not by that much. The base X5 30 turbo is also faster than the base Cayenne. However the X5's are thick on the ground up in your area, as they are here in the valley, so it seems like you are seeing yourself around every corner. Parking in a mall lot around here becomes an exercise in finding your own X5 amidst the herd. Cayennes OTOH are still fairly unique and actually turn heads in this car jaded area. It is your choice and drive them all, including the new ML, CTS-V wagon and FX50 to see what you like and what fits you best. Cayennes are Porsches and to many that does make a difference.:angel:

I actually drove the NEW Cayenne, and still felt that fit and finish was poor. The car drives nicely, although it felt VERY heavy (could be due to the VW V6). I'm sure the "S" drives much better.

I also agree that the Q7 is essentially a Toureg under the skin. That's not a slam - I think the Toureg is a lovely vehicle. In fact, of the three I think it offers the best choice of engines and has the best looks, but that's just my two cents. Unfortunately, it's the dismal reliability that scares me away. Also VW, Audi and Porsche's lease programs can't touch BMW. Right now, you could lease an X5 50i for about $800 per month. Try doing that with a Q7 or Cayenne.

Matt_UKTX 10-31-2011 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaucho (Post 6412208)
I completely disagree that the Cayenne V6 is a Toureg with a Porsche badge. Drove both and there is NO comparison. That is just plain silly.

I'm afraid that's my opinion and while you may think its "silly" I'm afraid that you're in the minority, as many people feel the same way.

Matt_UKTX 10-31-2011 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swajames (Post 6412225)
Just to add to that, UncleJ and Gaucho, I feel that there's a noticeable difference in handling and in interior quality between the X5 and the Cayenne. One reason for the handling and agility advantages is that the Cayenne is much, much lighter than the X5 - with this new generation Porsche took a lot of weight out of the Cayenne, close to 500lbs in some cases, and there's a significant weight differential between the two. The Porsche is also available with a lot of additional performance hardware such as PTV (torque vectoring), PDCC (the active suspension) and PCCB (ceramic composite brakes). It's also the only one of the two SUV's available with a manual transmission should you so choose. The handling advantage to the Cayenne isn't marginal, it's quite significant - but it does cost extra, the X5 has a significant price advantage.

I also feel that the latest generation Cayenne's interior is also more upscale than the more utilitarian (but still upscale) X5.

Value wise, the X5 is a fantastic buy and anyone choosing the X5 has chosen a very good SUV. I just don't feel it's quite as accomplished as the Cayenne. Whether it's worth the difference is, of course, a totally personal choice.

Motor Trend/Truck Trend SUV of the Year - http://www.trucktrend.com/oftheyear/...nne/index.html

Cayenne vs 911 track test - the 911 wins, but it is close. This is the Turbo, but the focus is on the handling which as you can see is incredbly impressive for a large SUV:

http://youtu.be/QYZart5XXUo

You have to compare apples to apples. Yes, the Cayenne has some amazing options, but those easily put the car way above X5 territory. Relistically, the X5 35i compares to the base V6 and the X5 50i compares to the S.

Dano18 10-31-2011 10:19 AM

It's amazing what you can get a vehicle to do with $150k:confused:

Matt_UKTX 10-31-2011 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dano18 (Post 6412416)
It's amazing what you can get a vehicle to do with $150k:confused:

Exactly... :yikes:

0428 10-31-2011 10:56 AM

My 2, the only vehicle that would make me leave the X5 would be the LR4, a three row seating tank. :thumbup:

Matt_UKTX 10-31-2011 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0428 (Post 6412479)
My 2, the only vehicle that would make me leave the X5 would be the LR4, a three row seating tank. :thumbup:

What about the RR Sport?

Gaucho 10-31-2011 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_UKTX (Post 6412382)
I'm afraid that's my opinion and while you may think its "silly" I'm afraid that you're in the minority, as many people feel the same way.

This is the same argument for those that say that a Lexus is just a Toyota in drag or an Infinity a Nissan in drag. The basic frame may be the same but hardly the same car. Most of the components are higher quality and upgraded. That is just ridiculous. This was likely brought on by the American car manufacturers as these premium lines started to come out and compete with those from GM and others.

By the same token it is like saying that a steak from Flemmings, Mortons, or any other high end steakhouse is the same as the one you buy packaged at the corner grocery store. They are both meat and that is where the commonality ends.

0428 10-31-2011 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_UKTX (Post 6412491)
What about the RR Sport?

3rd row is the key here

Matt_UKTX 10-31-2011 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaucho (Post 6412534)
This is the same argument for those that say that a Lexus is just a Toyota in drag or an Infinity a Nissan in drag. The basic frame may be the same but hardly the same car. Most of the components are higher quality and upgraded. That is just ridiculous. This was likely brought on by the American car manufacturers as these premium lines started to come out and compete with those from GM and others.

By the same token it is like saying that a steak from Flemmings, Mortons, or any other high end steakhouse is the same as the one you buy packaged at the corner grocery store. They are both meat and that is where the commonality ends.

Opinions aside, your analogy is flawed. I would actually say that's EXACTLY what Lexus and Infiniti are, perhaps even more so than the "Cayenne is a Toureg" argument.

I actually owned an FX35, for the most part it IS like a Nissan Murano. A very nice Nissan Murano, but a Murano nonetheless. In fact, many of the parts in the FX have the Nissan (not Infiniti) logo on them. The same is true for Lexus and for Acura too while we're on the topic.

The fact that people get all excited when someone states a simple opinion about the Cayenne says it all. I think people buy this car (the base V6) more for image than for practicality or performance. Of course, that is also true for BMW to some extent, but it least BMW cars have that visceral driving experience. I'm sorry, but I don't get that with the base V6 Porsche Cayenne, whereas I do get it with the X5 35i or 35d.

At no point has anyone stated "The Toureg is a crap SUV"... I think the Toureg is a very nice vehicle, so why all the uproar? Simply because people don't want their "Porsche" being compared to a "lowly" VW. It's sad...

I will accept that the GTS, Turbo, etc. are different beasts, and at that point so is the X5M. However, you can't tell me that the base Cayenne V6 and the Toureg V6 don't have a lot more in common. Especially the engine. Are you also aware that the Toureg Hybrid Engine, is the same one used in the Cayenne too? Again, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that - just stating a fact.

Ultimately, people don't want to know these facts, because they would rather be in denial about the origins of their "luxury" SUV. The proof? Look what happened to the VW Phaeton. People don't want to pay $80K for a VW, so now the orgins of the Phaeton live on in their Audi cousin - the A8, which people will gladly pay $80K for.

davidc1 10-31-2011 12:11 PM

I compared a Cayenne to X5 back in '07 and chose the X5. I am now in a Touareg that I thought was much better deal than the Cayenne V6 for similar performance. I believe the new Cayenne is much improved. I am looking to into the new X5 mainly due to the fact that X5 isn't that much more money than a new Touareg (lease payements, due to much lower residuals on VW). And if the prices aren't that far apart, X5 would be my choice hands down for streeet use. I do believe the last generation Toureg is much better off-road. X5 is a pretty good bang for the buck IMO. I'd choose Cayenne Turbo S over X5M if the prices were the same. But it's not.

swajames 10-31-2011 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_UKTX (Post 6412568)
Opinions aside, your analogy is flawed. I would actually say that's EXACTLY what Lexus and Infiniti are, perhaps even more so than the "Cayenne is a Toureg" argument.

I actually owned an FX35, for the most part it IS a Nissan Murano. A very nice Nissan Murano, but a Murano nonetheless. In fact, many of the parts in the FX have the Nissan (not Infiniti) logo on them. The same is true for Lexus and for Acura too while we're on the topic.

The FX35 and the Murano aren't actually related.... The FX is built on Nissan's RWD FM platform, the Murano was always based on a different FWD architecture. The FX is more closely related to a 370Z than it is the Murano.

Still, it is true to say that lower-end powerplants aside, the Cayenne and Touareg have less in common that people think. There's relatively little parts sharing, as an example the only body parts that were common on the prior generation Cayenne and Touareg were the doors. It is, however, also true to say that there is indeed a VW familial connection between these cars. The platform upon which the Cayenne, Q7 and Touareg was co-developed by Porsche and VW and is nominally held out as a VW platform. That said, it was, however, developed and designed largely by Porsche, at Weissach, under Porsche leadership. It's perhaps more accurate to say that the Touareg and Q7 are built on what was largely a Porsche platform.

WillInDenver 10-31-2011 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swajames (Post 6412631)
The FX35 and the Murano aren't actually related.... The FX is built on Nissan's RWD FM platform, the Murano was always based on a different FWD architecture. The FX is more closely related to a 370Z than it is the Murano.

This foots with what I have read about the cars as well. It is very strange that two vehicles that look that much alike are so fundamentally different. Sorta like a rhinoceros and a triceratops, if they had lived at the same time.

I absolutely believe that there are parts in any Infiniti that have "Nissan" stamped on them, though.

swajames 10-31-2011 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WJGreer (Post 6412656)
This foots with what I have read about the cars as well. It is very strange that two vehicles that look that much alike are so fundamentally different.

I absolutely believe that there are parts in any Infiniti that have "Nissan" stamped on them, though.

Oh I do too, I've owned a couple of Infiniti's and there are indeed Nissan parts (and there for sure are some Toyota parts on my wife's Lexus).

I've never really seen that as a downside to be fair, if there's enough extra content and differentiation between the related cars it's never bothered me too much that in some cases there might be a cheaper related car in the same extended family.

Matt_UKTX 10-31-2011 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swajames (Post 6412661)
Oh I do too, I've owned a couple of Infiniti's and there are indeed Nissan parts (and there for sure are some Toyota parts on my wife's Lexus).

I've never really seen that as a downside to be fair, if there's enough extra content and differentiation between the related cars it's never bothered me too much that in some cases there might be a cheaper related car in the same extended family.

Me too... I don't see a downside either. Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Lexus, Infiniti and Acura all make great, reliable cars.

That's why I can't understand why many Cayenne owners go spastic when you state the obvious: "Your car shares some components with a VW". It's not a slur, it's a fact.

WillInDenver 10-31-2011 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_UKTX (Post 6412670)
Me too... I don't see a downside either. Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Lexus, Infiniti and Acura all make great, reliable cars.

That's why I can't understand why many Cayenne owners go spastic when you state the obvious: "Your car shares some components with a VW". It's not a slur, it's a fact.

Agreed. How many of those (excellent) 2.0T engines are in Audis? Isn't that totally a VW engine? Good one, though.

WillInDenver 10-31-2011 01:47 PM

By the way...something I read earlier in the thread and forgot to respond to: the M-Sport package on the X5 doesn't work for me. On any BMW sedan, I would not be without it. But on the X, it looks like gratuitous cladding to me, like it doesn't need to be there. To my eyes, the Sport Activity package has the better look.


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