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-   -   Ride on RFT's sucks... (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=582800)

jatbeni 11-21-2011 10:33 AM

Ride on RFT's sucks...
 
You don't realize it so much until you change over to the non-RFT'S!

I just switched over to my winter setup... and realized how much better the ride was. The feeling lasts for a day or two, as your mind adapts to it! After that, it feels like it is "normal"!

Guess, once I switch back to my summers, I will not like the ride very much... but soon get used to it. Have to thank our ability to adapt.

amancuso 11-21-2011 11:34 AM

I ditched runflats for both summer and winter. I know what you mean!

Superschnell 11-21-2011 12:19 PM

RFT's have improved. On my last car they feel significantly better than previous. So I decided to go for runflats even for the winter setup.

strongarm73 11-21-2011 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superschnell (Post 6454173)
RFT's have improved. On my last car they feel significantly better than previous.

+1

The current generation of Pirelli PZeroes and Michelin PS2s are not bad at all---vastly better than RE050s.

jatbeni 11-21-2011 09:43 PM

Well - I have the Goodyear NCT's as the RFT and the Michelin X-Ice XI2 non-RFT's as the winter setup. I am more inclined to go non-RFT with my summer's once the Goodyear's run out.

No matter how good the RFT's are, I just don't believe that they will ride as well as the non-RFT's. Just by belief... based on the product brief handed out to RFT tires.

I am more inclined to carry a donut spare - for long distance journeys. Currently, I would throw in the summer or winter as a spare, when I travel out of town, but that ends up taking too much space in the small boot. But most of my driving is within the city, so I am completely comfortable with a regular tire and no spare.

strongarm73 11-21-2011 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jatbeni (Post 6455272)
Well - I have the Goodyear NCT's as the RFT and the Michelin X-Ice XI2 non-RFT's as the winter setup. I am more inclined to go non-RFT with my summer's once the Goodyear's run out.

No matter how good the RFT's are, I just don't believe that they will ride as well as the non-RFT's. Just by belief... based on the product brief handed out to RFT tires.

I am more inclined to carry a donut spare - for long distance journeys. Currently, I would throw in the summer or winter as a spare, when I travel out of town, but that ends up taking too much space in the small boot. But most of my driving is within the city, so I am completely comfortable with a regular tire and no spare.

Yeah, no doubt about it: RFTs are a compromise, even with the improved current generation. If I didn't have a "better half," I'd probably do the same thing.

SilverX3 11-22-2011 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strongarm73 (Post 6454359)
+1

The current generation of Pirelli PZeroes and Michelin PS2s are not bad at all---vastly better than RE050s.

I just switched back to rft p zero....the difference between non rft and rft p zero is very little

Superschnell 11-22-2011 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverX3 (Post 6455485)
I just switched back to rft p zero....the difference between non rft and rft p zero is very little

I agree. And it's nice not to worry about fixing or changig a flat tyre on the highway.

My car is fitted with the Dunlop RFTs. Only one thing to say: They are perfect. Stable and sticking to the surface under any conditions, no matter how poor the road is or how sharp the turns are.
Because of the low profile (35 and 30) you can feel it when driving over small stones or poorly repaired asphalt. No tyre can absorb that with such a profile. I don't see it as a problem either.

amancuso 11-22-2011 05:24 AM

Out of curiousity what is the price difference between RFT and non RFT in Europe/Aus? Over here in the US you can buy a set of 4 non RFT's for the price of 1.5 RFT's.

Superschnell 11-22-2011 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amancuso (Post 6455575)
Out of curiousity what is the price difference between RFT and non RFT in Europe/Aus? Over here in the US you can buy a set of 4 non RFT's for the price of 1.5 RFT's.

All new BMW's in Norway are fitted with (one set of) RFT's. For the winter setup I got an offer including 18" rims which was about 10% higher with RFT than with normal tyres. So I was in no doubt.

amancuso 11-22-2011 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superschnell (Post 6455589)
All new BMW's in Norway are fitted with (one set of) RFT's. For the winter setup I got an offer including 18" rims which was about 10% higher with RFT than with normal tyres. So I was in no doubt.

All new BMW's in the US also come fitted with RFT's. I was wondering about the price for buying RFT's after the fact, as if You got a flat or damaged tire, what is the cost to replace an RFT?

jatbeni 11-22-2011 09:31 AM

Well - Norway may be special then in that either the non-RFT's are overpriced, or the non-RFT's are priced to compete.

Here in the US - for my winter setup, the Bridgestone RFT's are about 30% more than my non-RFT Michelins. Also, I could only find the performance winter tires in the RFT version, whereas, I can find both performance and more extreme studless ice and snow versions. I wanted the latter... I was thinking of the extreme case, where I want maximum possible grip in the worst conditions... I am sure Hakka makes a tire that is both RFT and studless ice and snow... but that tire would run at least double.

But the price is only half the story...

By all anecdotal evidence, the RFT's have about half to 2/3's the service life of the non-RFT's. I hear most people with RFT's change their tires around the 20K mark. On the other hand, I can expect my non-RFT's to last at least 30K miles... and perhaps upto 40K.

So what do I give up? Some peace of mind about surviving a scary situation where the tire blows out... but even there, the jury is out on whether the RFT's are more susceptible to a blow out when you hit a pothole of a big bump (due to its stiffer side walls) then the more compliant non-RFT's. Given the road conditions around Chicago, my belief is that, this could be a significant factor, and I take that into account while driving. I am more careful about potholes on RFT's then when I am not on RFT's.

As far as getting a puncture is concerned... I have had one in the last 8-9 years. So - a slow leak is a total non issue. The pressure monitor will give me enough of a heads up!

What do I gain... a better ride (and I am not comparing a 30 or 35 aspect tire - choosing that sort of tire already identifies you as one who cares less about the ride; what I am talking about is a 45 or 50 aspect tire with some sidewall - in which case, there is a noticeable difference between a RFT and a non-RFT). Also - the tire is much cheaper in the long run, and I get a lot more choice... and any shop will fix it, in case of a leak.

Superschnell 11-22-2011 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amancuso (Post 6455848)
All new BMW's in the US also come fitted with RFT's. I was wondering about the price for buying RFT's after the fact, as if You got a flat or damaged tire, what is the cost to replace an RFT?

I checked out right now the prices in one specific net shop.
A 17" Goodyear Eagle is 15% more expensive in RF version. As I see it this is a typical difference.
There you got it!

jatbeni 11-22-2011 10:06 AM

Well - then Norway certainly is a different market then the US.

I just checked the summer tires too... and if I were picking a Summer tire for my 128i today, it would probably be the Bridgestone S-04 Pole Position ($676 for a set of 4 - 280 Wear Rating, Y speed rating) or the Continental ExtremeContact DW ($552, 340, W) - compare this to the Bridgestone RE050 RFT ($940, 140, W) and you see the situation here.

The RFT has a wear rating only half of its non-RFT Bridgestone counterpart... a lower speed rating... and it is 30% more expensive.

Compared to the Conti - which is one of the most popular tires on tirerack - it has a wear rating only 40% as good, and is 70% more expensive... PHEW!!!

So - compared to the Conti - I would get a tire that wears out in half the time - and costs double as much (if I made a quick mental math type of rule). So - in truth it is 3-4 times as expensive.

Superschnell 11-22-2011 11:30 AM

My price examples are Goodyear Eagle summer tires, dimension 225/50-17 fitting BMW F10. so probably the dimension is different from your example. But anyway:

A set of 4 "normal" costs NOK 5700 = USD 981.
A set of 4 RFT tires costs NOK 6600 = USD 1136 (+ 15.8%).

These are prices from a large net shop. Prices through BMW dealers would probably be like 20% higher.

I understand all your arguments against RFT. And indeed this year is the first that I drive RFT even during winter. But only on my F12, not the Mini. I wanted to try it out since I was so content with the tires that sat on the new car.

Zeke77 11-22-2011 12:02 PM

I was very hesitant to switch to non-RFTs on my 650. However, I ultimately switched to Michelin Pilot Sports last year and I must say the difference was immediately noticeable.

Also, when I had the new tires put on, the service tech had me pick up a new Pirelli RFT (actually hold it in my hands....) and compare the weight to non-RFT Michelins. The difference was significant. His opinion was that not only would I feel a smoother ride on the non-RFTs, I might also see improved MPG. I did--According to the OBC on essentially the same roads/mileage for a six month period, my MPG average went from 19.9 to 21.

The tech did say that the RFTs have proven to perform better on hard cornering. That's not something I do a lot, so it was less important to me.

jatbeni 11-22-2011 12:06 PM

Hmmm - I am checking TireRack.com - an online retailer here in the US, that is very competitive in its prices, and one that I bought my Winter Tires from.

The base 17 size is available for the 528 only. But in that version, I could not find a Max Performance Summer tire - to compare I have used the All Seasons - from Goodyear.

The RFT is the Goodyear Eagle LS2 ($912, 400, V) vs. the non-RFT is the Goodyear Eagle GT ($528, 440, V). So, in the case, there seems to have been some progress in the RFT - as in the wear rating has improved considerably... and it is only about 10% worse. But it is still 70% more expensive.

For the 18 size, you do get Max Performance Summers (where the Michelin Pilot Super Sport currently rules the roost). We can get the Michelin PSS - i.e. the currently best rated tire - for $1108 for a pair of 4 (. For a more even comparison, we can look at similar rated tires from the same brand (I read somewhere, the wear ratings are not so comparable across brands).

So -
Dunlop SP Sport Max GT DSST RFT ($1436, 240, Y) vs. Dunlop SP Sport Max TT non-RFT ($712, 240, Y). The tires are rated similar in wear and speed... but the RFT's are double the price.
Bridgestone RE050 RFT ($1300, 140, Y) vs Bridgestone RE050 non-RFT ($1012, 140, Y) - this is the closest - similar rating and only a 30% difference in price over the lifetime of the tire.

But even with the Bridgestones, the tire to buy is not the RE050. Instead, you can get their latest and greatest - the S-04 Pole Position ($916 , 280, Y). This has double the wear rating and is cheaper than the older RE050 (a circa 2005 tire). And lets not forget - the current benchmark - the Michelin Pilot Super Sport ($1108, 300, Y)...

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=148

jatbeni 11-22-2011 12:10 PM

@ Zeke77

I have had a similar experience with my winter vs. summer tires. I see slightly improved fuel economy... but I could not be sure if it was because of the low rolling resistance Green X branded Michelins... or because of the weight of the tire.

But the lighter tire has certainly got to help with the unsprung weight - and the better ride.


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