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-   -   335i Engine Hesitation between 2500 and 3000 rpm (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=590791)

jburke4689 12-30-2011 12:04 PM

335i Engine Hesitation between 2500 and 3000 rpm
 
I have a 335i (8/2007) production 6sp MT. I noticed a hesitation and roughness between 2500 and 3000 rpm under acceleration. There are no SES lights or any other symptoms. The car would accelerate through that range well enough but it was very annoying. It is particularly noticable in 4th through 6th gear. In 1st through 3rd gear the car accelerated too rapily through the rpm range to notice the roughness unless you are looking for it. My car has had the HPFP and all injectors replaced under recall and I paid for new spark plugs about a year ago and it currently has 67K miles on it. Otherwise the car is great.

I had the car scanned and there is a single code stored, (2AAF, Fuel Pump Plausibility). I took it to the dealer and they confirmed my symptoms (I did not tell them that I knew about the 2AAF and the TSB) and said I need a new low pressure fuel pump, the one in tank. I asked my service advisor if they were sure. "Why is it only in that rpm range?" He said the low pressure fuel pump is variable delivery and at that rpm delivery, that is the issue. I said OK but "fuel delivery at 2500-3000 rpm is different at each gear and varies with load on the engine." He said "we are sure that is the problem. I said "OK, do the repair." By the way, the BMW service bulletin says "do not replace low pressure components for 2AAF without testing a lot of other components first."

I picked up the car after paying my $700 and started driving it home. After warm up, I started accelerating and the car was still doing the exact same thing. I immediately brought the car back. The dealer has had the car seven days now and just told me today that they have opened a PUMA case with BMWNA.

I am reserving my opinion of this dealer until I have the problem resolved. Everyone can make a mistake. I will update the post as soon as I have resolution.

Has anyone experienced the same thing?

hmr 12-30-2011 12:54 PM

Your problem sounds to me like a problem I had with ignition coils. It was a misfire and most evident under heavy load in 3rd or 4th gear around 3k rpm. No codes until later, when the ignition coil went completely south.

BimmerAWD 12-31-2011 07:21 PM

I am also having the same problem with my car (2008 335xi 6MT). It happens only at lower RPMs as you stated. It feels like the boost is breaking up under moderate to hard acceleration. I too have had the HPFP and injectors replaced under the recall. Also, no check engine light and otherwise the car runs great. I haven't had a chance to bring it to bring it to the dealer yet and won't be able to for another week or so because I'm leaving for vacation Tuesday. Please keep us posted, I'd love to know the resolution to this issue.

CALWATERBOY 01-01-2012 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jburke4689 (Post 6531903)

I had the car scanned and there is a single code stored, (2AAF, Fuel Pump Plausibility). I took it to the dealer and they confirmed my symptoms (I did not tell them that I knew about the 2AAF and the TSB) and said I need a new low pressure fuel pump, the one in tank. I asked my service advisor if they were sure. "Why is it only in that rpm range?" He said the low pressure fuel pump is variable delivery and at that rpm delivery, that is the issue. I said OK but "fuel delivery at 2500-3000 rpm is different at each gear and varies with load on the engine." He said "we are sure that is the problem. I said "OK, do the repair." By the way, the BMW service bulletin says "do not replace low pressure components for 2AAF without testing a lot of other components first."

Sooooo, was the LPFP replaced?

You should be aware that LPFP problems will cause HPFP self destruct over time. Very interested in final resolution! Could be as simple as a dirty filter....:cry:

jburke4689 01-02-2012 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY (Post 6534887)
Sooooo, was the LPFP replaced?

You should be aware that LPFP problems will cause HPFP self destruct over time. Very interested in final resolution! Could be as simple as a dirty filter....:cry:

Yes, The LPFP was replaced.

Blubaron79 01-03-2012 11:27 AM

I just had an injector replaced last week. Now mine is also hesitating between 2500 and 3500 rpm under highway load acceleration. It won't do it in 1st or second gear when I'm pulling out.

Alpine300ZHP 01-03-2012 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blubaron79 (Post 6538528)
I just had an injector replaced last week. Now mine is also hesitating between 2500 and 3500 rpm under highway load acceleration. It won't do it in 1st or second gear when I'm pulling out.

At the OP mileage I suspect that you guys have a combination of carbon buildup on the intake valves and some injector clogging. I have owned 3 N54 engines so I am somewhat of an armchair expert on this motor. I suggest you guys do the following:

1) Fill up with Shell 93 octane or Chevron 93 octane

2) Buy 4 bottles of BMW fuel system cleaner plus (just wait and let me finish)

3) At the first fill up do this: a) put a bottle of fuel system cleaner plus in before filling up the car b) warm up the engine at low RPM and speeds for 20 minutes c) take car onto the interstate and do 70 mph in 3rd gear making sure you are turning at least 4k RPM. d) Do the drive for 30 minutes and then shift to 6th and let the car cool down.

4) Two times a week for the next two-four weeks repeat number three making sure that you are running Shell or Chevron and using a bottle of fuel system cleaner in each tankful until all 4 bottles are gone.

I can almost guarantee your hesitation problems will be gone before or by the time all of the fuel system cleaner plus is used up. Once you have corrected the problem maintain the engine by doing my suggestion once a month. This is how I kept my N54's running good.....

Alpine300ZHP 01-03-2012 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BimmerAWD (Post 6534367)
I am also having the same problem with my car (2008 335xi 6MT). It happens only at lower RPMs as you stated. It feels like the boost is breaking up under moderate to hard acceleration. I too have had the HPFP and injectors replaced under the recall. Also, no check engine light and otherwise the car runs great. I haven't had a chance to bring it to bring it to the dealer yet and won't be able to for another week or so because I'm leaving for vacation Tuesday. Please keep us posted, I'd love to know the resolution to this issue.

This is exactly what contaminated injectors and carbon buildup feel like. Shuddering at idle and stumbling idle are usually carbon buildup rather than injectors.

Blubaron79 01-03-2012 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP (Post 6538809)
At the OP mileage I suspect that you guys have a combination of carbon buildup on the intake valves and some injector clogging. I have owned 3 N54 engines so I am somewhat of an armchair expert on this motor. I suggest you guys do the following:

1) Fill up with Shell 93 octane or Chevron 93 octane

2) Buy 4 bottles of BMW fuel system cleaner plus (just wait and let me finish)

3) At the first fill up do this: a) put a bottle of fuel system cleaner plus in before filling up the car b) warm up the engine at low RPM and speeds for 20 minutes c) take car onto the interstate and do 70 mph in 3rd gear making sure you are turning at least 4k RPM. d) Do the drive for 30 minutes and then shift to 6th and let the car cool down.

4) Two times a week for the next two-four weeks repeat number three making sure that you are running Shell or Chevron and using a bottle of fuel system cleaner in each tankful until all 4 bottles are gone.

I can almost guarantee your hesitation problems will be gone before or by the time all of the fuel system cleaner plus is used up. Once you have corrected the problem maintain the engine by doing my suggestion once a month. This is how I kept my N54's running good.....

Awesome! Thanks for the suggestion. Can I use any other type of fuel cleaner??? Or BMW fuel cleaner only?

I think I haven't used fuel cleaner enough in this car.

jburke4689 01-04-2012 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blubaron79 (Post 6538528)
I just had an injector replaced last week. Now mine is also hesitating between 2500 and 3500 rpm under highway load acceleration. It won't do it in 1st or second gear when I'm pulling out.

Blubaron. It may be doing it in 1st and second but the engine pulls through that rpm range in less than 1 second making it hard it notice. It is much more noticeable in 4, 5 and 6 because it spends more time in that range.

jburke4689 01-04-2012 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP (Post 6538828)
This is exactly what contaminated injectors and carbon buildup feel like. Shuddering at idle and stumbling idle are usually carbon buildup rather than injectors.

Alpine, my car idles smooth as silk and runs great at all rpm. The only problem is the one I described on my post. The car even runs smooth at 2500-3000 rpm when cruising. It is only under load that I get the roughness.

jburke4689 01-04-2012 12:41 PM

I visited my dealer today and talked with the service manager. The car has been there 2 weeks. He told me that the regional engineer from BMW NA was there and they aren't sure what it is yet but are leaning toward the wastegate. I never had the rattling issue but wastegate sounds right to me based on the symptoms. Feels like the boost is dumping in that rpm range. I hope they do a goodwill repair. Even with the class action (wastegate warranty extended 1 year or 12,000 miles) I am screwed. I have 67k on mine. Hopefully they will take into account the fact that they replaced my low pressure fuel pump for $700 and that didn't fix it.

Blubaron79 01-04-2012 02:11 PM

I stopped in last night to grab some fuel system cleaner. The SA said it was carbon build up if I only felt it under light engine load on the highway. She said to run 1 to 2 bottles of cleaner through it, and all should be good. The Westgate would be throwing a SES light, plus 2009 is when BMW started putting the upgraded Westgates on to get rid of any Westgate problems.

Alpine300ZHP 01-04-2012 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blubaron79 (Post 6538894)
Awesome! Thanks for the suggestion. Can I use any other type of fuel cleaner??? Or BMW fuel cleaner only?

I think I haven't used fuel cleaner enough in this car.

Mike Miller tells me to stick with BMW fuel system cleaner plus so I trust what he says. There is apparently some difference from the BMW stuff and the Techron stuff you buy at the auto parts store. Given the nominal price difference (less than 3 bucks a bottle) I will buy the BMW stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jburke4689 (Post 6540844)
Alpine, my car idles smooth as silk and runs great at all rpm. The only problem is the one I described on my post. The car even runs smooth at 2500-3000 rpm when cruising. It is only under load that I get the roughness.

Under load roughness and a smooth idle is, more than likely, injector buildup. I would still recommend you run 4 tankfuls of BMW fuel system cleaner plus even if you do not to the high RPM drive. I would still do the high RPM drive as it can only help and cannot hurt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jburke4689 (Post 6541025)
I visited my dealer today and talked with the service manager. The car has been there 2 weeks. He told me that the regional engineer from BMW NA was there and they aren't sure what it is yet but are leaning toward the wastegate. I never had the rattling issue but wastegate sounds right to me based on the symptoms. Feels like the boost is dumping in that rpm range. I hope they do a goodwill repair. Even with the class action (wastegate warranty extended 1 year or 12,000 miles) I am screwed. I have 67k on mine. Hopefully they will take into account the fact that they replaced my low pressure fuel pump for $700 and that didn't fix it.

Maybe it is the wastegate, but before you pay them money to replace/fix the turbos why don't you try my suggestion. If my suggestion fails to improve the problem then consider wastegates. It is rare for wastegates to malfunction without codes and noise...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blubaron79 (Post 6541242)
I stopped in last night to grab some fuel system cleaner. The SA said it was carbon build up if I only felt it under light engine load on the highway. She said to run 1 to 2 bottles of cleaner through it, and all should be good. The Westgate would be throwing a SES light, plus 2009 is when BMW started putting the upgraded Westgates on to get rid of any Westgate problems.

I agree with everything you said about the wastegates and it sounds like your S.A. basically told you to do what I did. Let me make sure you understand (as you S.A. seems not to understand) that on a direct injection motor as the N54 the fuel system cleaner plus will not clean the carbon buildup. If the fuel cleaner helps it is only because there was injector buildup (which is quite common on the pizeo injectors). The high RPM run is the only thing that will clean up carbon buildup on the valves (or an engine cleaning with walnut shell blaster for $500 bucks) because that is the only way to get the motor hot enough to start breaking the carbon down and blowing it out.....heat is what gets rid of the carbon....sustained high heat. Since we are not sure if the problem is one or both of these I recommend my dual approach which addresses both issues at the same time and is more effective than telling people to do each remedy separately.

Blubaron79 01-04-2012 02:29 PM

Thanks. I'll be pushing the hard a little harder the next few tank fulls.

CALWATERBOY 01-04-2012 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP (Post 6541279)

Let me make sure you understand (as you S.A. seems not to understand) that on a direct injection motor as the N54 the fuel system cleaner plus will not clean the carbon buildup. If the fuel cleaner helps it is only because there was injector buildup (which is quite common on the pizeo injectors). The high RPM run is the only thing that will clean up carbon buildup on the valves (or an engine cleaning with walnut shell blaster for $500 bucks) because that is the only way to get the motor hot enough to start breaking the carbon down and blowing it out.....heat is what gets rid of the carbon....sustained high heat. Since we are not sure if the problem is one or both of these I recommend my dual approach which addresses both issues at the same time and is more effective than telling people to do each remedy separately.

Water injection will clean cylinder carbon big time...all will be gone. Usually done with 50/50 methanol, of course. Put a smile on yer mug too.

There is doubt same will clean intake valves where PCV carryover gunks & clunks 'em. $600 dealer walnut shell blast there unless you DIY for dramatically less - a little solvent and a lot o'DIY PITA labor.

But...should be no carbon buildup in a stock motor!
.

jburke4689 01-06-2012 02:38 PM

I met with my dealer today. I spoke with the service manager and shop foreman. Now they believe it is seals in the "turbo bypass." I can't find that in the parts list unless "turbo bypass" is the wastegate. The jury is still out on the dealer. We'll see. Both the foreman and service manager were courteous. Thats something. Three weeks and counting.

Squidget 01-06-2012 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jburke4689 (Post 6545644)
I met with my dealer today. I spoke with the service manager and shop foreman. Now they believe it is seals in the "turbo bypass." I can't find that in the parts list unless "turbo bypass" is the wastegate. The jury is still out on the dealer. We'll see. Both the foreman and service manager were courteous. Thats something. Three weeks and counting.

They probably mean the blow off valve.

Blubaron79 01-06-2012 11:17 PM

I haven't ran a full bottle of fuel cleaner through yet, but I'll let you know what happens. I'm only a 1/4 tank through.

Alpine300ZHP 01-07-2012 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blubaron79 (Post 6546592)
I haven't ran a full bottle of fuel cleaner through yet, but I'll let you know what happens. I'm only a 1/4 tank through.

Did you do the 4k RPM run yet? If so, any difference?

Blubaron79 01-08-2012 10:35 AM

Actually, yes. Haven't been able to get on the highway as much as I wanted, but it's been doing it a lot less; and with less severity.

MontrealBimmer 01-08-2012 09:21 PM

You should have opted for a 328 and you wouldn't be posting problems

Squidget 01-08-2012 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontrealBimmer (Post 6549679)
You should have opted for a 328 and you wouldn't be posting problems

No, but of course then you'd be having hesitation ALL the time. Relatively speaking. :p

jburke4689 01-09-2012 08:38 AM

Squidget, you are sooooo on the mark. My loaner is a 328. I could have opted for a Toyota Camry too. ;-)

MontrealBimmer 01-09-2012 09:04 AM

How can you compare a Toyota Camry. Are you guys with 335's on some kind of 335 drug? Both cars drive exactly the same with the same options other than the 335 is a little faster on take off. Big deal. Unless your racing everyday I don't see your point. And if you got it to race, most sports cars will smoke you.


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