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-   -   Is that a catch can? Yes it is. Goodbye CCV (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=601440)

eparayno 02-16-2012 02:59 PM

Is that a catch can? Yes it is. Goodbye CCV
 
6 Attachment(s)
So after installing a new CCV the oil drips are still present. I just wanted to do away with that damn thing once and for all and did a LOT of research off this site and some on this site. I left it vented to the air for now so excuse the foam filter. It was the only one I could find locally that would fit. The car started right up, no codes, dash lights etc. The CCV is still attached to the engine I will be unbolting that damn thing once i have more time. I just plugged the vacuum ports on the distribution piece and fabbed up my own connector from the valve cover using the connector from the old CCV. One thing I did notice was a lot of oil in the distribution piece vacuum nipples. Eventually I will have a closed system again. Just waiting on a PCV to come in used for Audi/VW 1.8T engines.

One thing I noticed while driving on the new setup was that the engine tone sounded different, can't really describe the change but the I6 sounded more pronounced? Also the car fell better during acceleration. That may be due to no more oil being sucked into the intake. Stupid new cold weather CCV.

Here are some links that helped me including the PCV valve I will be using to recirculate and the catch can I used. I chose it mainly because of the internal baffling and the 3/4" fittings:


http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=861315
http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-...--1.8T/ES7844/
http://store.42draftdesigns.com/Stea...Can_p_289.html


Also thank you to Poolman and CN90 from this site. Your articles were a very good read regarding the PCV/CCV system!!

16valex 02-16-2012 06:48 PM

One of the nicest so far:thumbup:. Let's hear the rest.

eparayno 02-16-2012 08:07 PM

Thanks Alex. I wanted it to look as OEM as possible :thumbup:

While I do think the OEM CCV's functions work out great....when it works and if it wasn't located where it is then I would have had no desire to get rid of the damn thing. The only reason I hesitated to do this on my BMW sooner is because I am new to the BMW world and didn't know how sensitive the ECU/Stock engine management systems were. On previous cars boosted or NA I just stuck a filter on the valve cover and plugged the vacuum source. This is essentially what I did and with a good outcome. Although I never liked the idea of introducing crankcase gas/moisture/oil vapors back into the oil this was just a no-brainer.

Tomorrow I will work on installing a new O-ring for the dipstick tube as well as plugging the connection on the dipstick used for the CCV. And while I'm there might as well remove the CCV and proceed to smash it and its corresponding hoses with a sledge hammer.

Jason5driver 02-16-2012 09:27 PM

Interesting...

16valex 02-17-2012 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eparayno (Post 6637492)
Thanks Alex. I wanted it to look as OEM as possible :thumbup:

While I do think the OEM CCV's functions work out great....when it works and if it wasn't located where it is then I would have had no desire to get rid of the damn thing. The only reason I hesitated to do this on my BMW sooner is because I am new to the BMW world and didn't know how sensitive the ECU/Stock engine management systems were. On previous cars boosted or NA I just stuck a filter on the valve cover and plugged the vacuum source. This is essentially what I did and with a good outcome. Although I never liked the idea of introducing crankcase gas/moisture/oil vapors back into the oil this was just a no-brainer.

Tomorrow I will work on installing a new O-ring for the dipstick tube as well as plugging the connection on the dipstick used for the CCV. And while I'm there might as well remove the CCV and proceed to smash it and its corresponding hoses with a sledge hammer.

The CCV system on an M54 engine is not that complicated as we think. The design idea is great but the hardware is doomed for disaster sooner or later especially if you live in a cold climate.

Catch can is way to go but make sure you have a controlled vent to allow pressure to escape.

I'm still no clear as of your other end go. I know one end of your catch can go to the valve cover but still not clear for the other end. And are you going to put a check valve some where in your catch can system?

Keep up the good work, I really like the can it's clean.

cn90 02-17-2012 06:42 AM

Good job.

For the purpose of my post, I use the words PCV and CCV interchangeably.

I used to own an E23 (1983 735i 5sp), the PCV in that car is very simple, it is just a hose from the valve cover going to the intake.

With the E23 PCV system, crankcase vapor (which is mostly blow-by combustion product) + a tiny amount of oil re-enters the Intake Manifold.
IIRC, my E23 drank 1L engine oil for every 5000 miles, so it was not so bad.
Every so often when I opened the E23 Intake Manifold, there is a tiny amount of engine oil in there, maybe a drop or 2, no big deal.

Since then, BMW changed the design, in the E39, the idea is the same except now the CCV device has a vacuum diaphragm. At certain pressure, the diaphragm opens allowing blow-by combustion product to re-enters the Intake Manifold, while keeping the oil back so the oil is not allowed to enter the I.M.

Nice idea until the CCV fails, now tons of oil enters the I.M., thus blue smoke in exhaust.

If you compare a brand new E23 PCV vs a brand new E39 CCV system, I am not convinced that the E39 consumes less oil to start with.


Here you go, it is #11 in the picture below (from my 1983 735i), this will give you an idea how it used to be.
Notice that in the E23, the PCV pipe slopes UPWARD (because the Intake Manifold sits high), so any oil naturally flows DOWNWARD.
(In the E39, the I.M. sits BELOW the Valve Cover for aerodynamic reasons, thus the convoluted CCV design in the E39).

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/att...hmentid=198758

eparayno 02-17-2012 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 16valex (Post 6637944)
The CCV system on an M54 engine is not that complicated as we think. The design idea is great but the hardware is doomed for disaster sooner or later especially if you live in a cold climate.

Catch can is way to go but make sure you have a controlled vent to allow pressure to escape.

I'm still no clear as of your other end go. I know one end of your catch can go to the valve cover but still not clear for the other end. And are you going to put a check valve some where in your catch can system?

Keep up the good work, I really like the can it's clean.

Alex, it is just vented to the atmosphere. I will add a PCV that I linked above once I recirculate it back to the intake. The valve cover is pressurized hence the need for a check valve/PCV if attached to a vacuum source.

CN90 I figured crankcase pressure is crankcase pressure but was afraid BMW did something different by way of electronics/monitoring. After reading posts like "Help! I changed my floor mats now my engine won't start!" I was hesitant. I was actually just going to use the PCV that I linked above and just route it to the intake manifold BUT I just don't like anything other than air being sucked into the intake.

cn90 02-17-2012 08:35 AM

You may want to read the thread below in detail, I suggested to "poolman" to build an UPHILL slope in the snake hose, this way oil flows back down by gravity (back to the Valve Cover).
The other end of the hose goes to the I.M.:

http://www.forums.bimmerfest.com/sho....php?p=4646241

Jason5driver 02-17-2012 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eparayno (Post 6638240)
Alex, it is just vented to the atmosphere. I will add a PCV that I linked above once I recirculate it back to the intake. The valve cover is pressurized hence the need for a check valve/PCV if attached to a vacuum source.

CN90 I figured crankcase pressure is crankcase pressure but was afraid BMW did something different by way of electronics/monitoring. After reading posts like "Help! I changed my floor mats now my engine won't start!" I was hesitant. I was actually just going to use the PCV that I linked above and just route it to the intake manifold BUT I just don't like anything other than air being sucked into the intake.

Interesting...
My thinking was that there needed to be a pressure check valve on the hose going from the catch can/oil separator to the valve cover, but perhaps the check valve should only be at the hose going from the catch can/ oil separator to the intake manifold?

Do you plan on keeping the air distribution piece, that connects to the intake manifold?

Or, do you plan on capping the inlets on the intake manifold, like what was shown from the guys on E46fanatics...?

Or, do you plan on running the hose (hose would have a check valve) from the catch-can to the air distribution piece, if you plan on keeping the air distribution piece?

eparayno 02-17-2012 09:25 AM

Jason a pressure check valve is needed if the system is recirculated, in my case it is just vented to the atmosphere. And the distribution piece is still in place I just have the vacuum ports capped until I have more time to remove the CCV hoses and the CCV unit itself and fab up a hose to run to the catch can.

I will probably get everything done by next week, the next few days will be busy. All thats left to do is 1. remove CCV and hoses associated 2. cap the inlet on the dipstick tube used for the CCV 3. replace o-ring on dipstick tube (might as well, lots of sludge around it) 4. fab up a hose to use on the distribution piece that connects BOTH inlets and attach that to the catch can.

I want to use both vacuum ports on the distribution piece due to Poolman reporting running rich by just using one port.

Jason5driver 02-17-2012 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eparayno (Post 6638380)
Jason a pressure check valve is needed if the system is recirculated, in my case it is just vented to the atmosphere. And the distribution piece is still in place I just have the vacuum ports capped until I have more time to remove the CCV hoses and the CCV unit itself and fab up a hose to run to the catch can.

I will probably get everything done by next week, the next few days will be busy. All that's left to do is:
1. remove CCV and hoses associated
2. cap the inlet on the dipstick tube used for the CCV
3. replace o-ring on dipstick tube (might as well, lots of sludge around it)
4. fab up a hose to use on the distribution piece that connects BOTH inlets and attach that to the catch can.

I want to use both vacuum ports on the distribution piece due to Poolman reporting running rich by just using one port.

Right, I understand what you have installed now.

My thinking is that in order to have the car run correctly, you need to have pressure in the system, thus connecting to the air distribution piece/ intake manifold.

Concerning the 2 hose connection inlets on the air distribution piece...
Why don't you just cap the smaller inlet, then run the main hose from the catch-can to the larger inlet on the air distribution piece?

eparayno 02-17-2012 10:03 AM

The system is always pressurized, hence the use of a PCV of some sort when connected to the intake manifold (a variable-restriction valve that can react to changing pressure values and intermittently allow the passage of the gases to their intended destination (which nowadays is the engine's intake stream)) Due to the EPA this has become standard. The stock CCV is a pressure valve that just has such a horrible location/configuration for such a simple task.

Poolman noted running rich when connected to one inlet on the distribution piece due to the front 3 cylinders pulling in air. He solved it by using spacers but I just want to incorporate both while trying to keep everything looking and running like OEM.

champaign777 02-17-2012 12:41 PM

subscribed
its nice but i want to see the full picture

doru 02-17-2012 01:35 PM

The problem with the CCV system is that it has to be calibrated for a certain Hg pressure value to work correctly with the engine. Point in case is the link in the very first post of this thread - to e46 Fanatics. The guy who did the homemade CCV system ended up recognizing quite a few shortcomings of his system. A BMW tech jumped in and mentioned it. In the end one of the MAJOR issues is the fact that the M54 engine is using low tension piston rings. He ended up disacrding the project. His system robbed the engine of low end power and the running values were off. Replaced the OEM CCV and and everything went back to normal. Due to the use of low tension piston rings.
A better design of the CCV system which can be easy serviced - yes. Removing it and replacing with a home brewed system - prolly doesn't work well. Sometimes BMW engineers Do know WTF they're doing.

bimmerteck 02-17-2012 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doru (Post 6638857)
Removing it and replacing with a home brewed system - prolly doesn't work well. Sometimes BMW engineers Do know WTF they're doing.

^this.

Crankcase vacuum increases ring piston seal, reduces oil leaks, and improves oil flow within the block.

I personally believe the BMW I6s need a little MORE vacuum in the crankcase than stock rather than less. I say this b/c when I've installed dry sump systems with multistage scavenge pumps the I6 motors tend to see around a 15% increase in power on the dyno. Oil pressure drops slightly and generally lower oil temps follow as well.

As to those wanting to eliminate the mayonnaise, run ethanol free fuel if you can find it and the volume will be reduced dramatically as it is often caused by water in your fuel being deposited in the crankcase due to blow by. ;)

eparayno 02-17-2012 08:46 PM

I never mentioned that I was leaving it vented OR say the CCVs function and purpose was stupid. My goal was to retain the function of the CCV minus the drain back and it's location. Once I install the pressure valve it will be a functioning system allowing vacuum without introducing oil into the intake. Plus easily accessible/removable etc.

4 hours, scraped up knuckles and fingers to replace a valve did not sit well with me. Now it is just a few bolts and clamps and a few minutes.

poolman 02-17-2012 09:17 PM

The deal that I put together isn't far from what you have built--one thing different--I use a vac hose from the distribution unit with an old pvc valve---this give a vacuum to the crankcase and helps to keep oil useage to a minium--I even have my catch can located in just about the same way you have--just one more hose going to it with the PVC --hope this works for you a long time--good luck

eparayno 02-17-2012 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poolman (Post 6639626)
The deal that I put together isn't far from what you have built--one thing different--I use a vac hose from the distribution unit with an old pvc valve---this give a vacuum to the crankcase and helps to keep oil useage to a minium--I even have my catch can located in just about the same way you have--just one more hose going to it with the PVC --hope this works for you a long time--good luck

Im picking up the valve tomorrow morning :thumbup: Its the VW/Audi I linked in my original post.

And thanks to you for trying out several combinations and posting your findings Poolman! Also you noted running rich when just connected to the front vacuum source on the distribution piece, what spacers did you use and how did you set it up? I plan on putting a vacuum T utilizing both front and back vacuum sources but Id like to know what you used. It will probably look a lot cleaner than what I have in mind. Sucks that the fron and rear nipples are different sizes, makes finding and fitting vaccum elbows and T's that much more difficult.

eparayno 02-18-2012 12:04 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Well I finished the installation. Car feels the same and still runs great, all that's left to do is put some spacers underneath the intake cover to lift it up(cant fully bolt it because of the hose), remove the CCV still and plug the dip stick tube. Should be 100% wrapped up tomorrow since today I have places to go.

doru 02-18-2012 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eparayno (Post 6640491)
Well I finished the installation. Car feels the same and still runs great, all that's left to do is put some spacers underneath the intake cover to lift it up(cant fully bolt it because of the hose), remove the CCV still and plug the dip stick tube. Should be 100% wrapped up tomorrow since today I have places to go.

Well done. To be 100% certain that the car has the same running values, you need to hook it up to a GT1 or similar and compare the values. With OEM CCV and your system.

0.02

poolman 02-18-2012 04:01 PM

I like what you did there--it's even cleaner than the way I have mine made --great job---that valve that you have hooked up--might want to try that myself, what is that part?
On the hookup of hoses and all, I used going into the largest part of the distribution port, a hose that would fit into the port itself sorta snug fit--I then used a very heavy duty shrink tubeing product that I bought from my neighborhood Fastenal--I then fitted the hose down with a 3/4 to 1/2 copper plumbing reducer and then fitted the same shrink tubeing over that--then the line went to the catch can with the pvc valve on the end of that line going into the catch can I made with a grommet to house the pvc valve.---Then there is one more grommet in the top of the catch can that uses a 90 degree vacuum bend (for want of a better word)and then over to the valve cover and hooked up again with the heavy duty shrink tubing--
The shrink tubing I found is the heaveist stuff I ever saw, didn't know it was available like that--the warmer it gets under the hood the better the stuff holds LOL

Just read your last post again, you need to make sure you plug that port on your dipstick as soon as possible, your going to have a vacuum leak until you do that. Need to ask another question also, has you car used a lot of oil before doing this? If so, please let me know how this works out for you in that regard. I have a freind that has a 2001 X5 and wants me to change out his Vanos seals for him along with the cooling system. Thing about the car is that it uses about 1 qt of oil for every 1000 miles. I'm thinking about building a catch system for his car and just wanted to check out how yours is doing after you get it all buttoned up properly

eparayno 02-18-2012 05:43 PM

Poolman, my car wasnt using any oil that I was aware of, oil level always looked ok on the dipstick. The reason I did this was because I suspected my CCV to be leaking (new one replaced at 133k) But I discoverd a lot of oil in the front distribution vacuum port and in the hose attached to it, maybe the new CCV was faulty.

The valve and catch can I chose because of the 3/4" ID hoses needed. Basically I just paid for the catch can and pressure regulator valve (audi/VW 1.8t part) and a 3/4" vacuum elbow. The Heater hose I had laying around as well as the clamps. So it was convenient with the fitting. The stock L from the valve cover was what I used, I removed the plastic tube part wrapped around the bottom nipple then used a dremel to cut it into a straight fitting.

I will plug up the dipstick tube first thing and just wrap everything up. My check engine light came on though while waiting at the gas station after a few miles of driving I will need to check codes/reset/etc. Would the CCV still attached to the dipstick tube cause or can cause a vacuum leak? the valve cover and distribution connectors are just hanging there not connected from the CCV just the drain back tube. Im thinking yes since the CCV may be faulty

poolman 02-19-2012 07:17 AM

You have a direct vacuum leak from the dipstick tube not being closed off--air is being pulled through the crankcase through the dipstick tube and on back through the ccv thats not hooked up anymore
Once you plug off the hose connection there at the dipstick tube , you will be in good shape.
I really like what your system looks like now that you have added the parts on I suggested. Question--does your distribution unit have to ports for hook up. I notice that you have only one port used (same as mine)--what did you use to plug the other port--I used a vacuum cap that I bought from Advance Auto that worked great--just seein what you have used there. As for using washers and stuff inside the distribution uniot--I gave that idea up when I started using the PVC valve system--Where did you get the oil catch can your using and I might need the part# of the valve your using also--I made mine up and it looks pretty good, but I'm likeing what you have there even better
Hope that helps

dalekressin 02-19-2012 07:21 AM

Interesting ... no SES or codes.

eparayno 02-19-2012 08:52 AM

Everything is buttoned up. New problem now though. During idle the hose I have going from the PCV to the intake is compressing, the hose becomes almost flat. Is it the valve or the hose? Maybe the valve is on backwards? I have it setup like how it is on the 1.8T engine but that application is forced induction.


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