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-   -   Clutch issues- Totally STUMPED (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=605869)

Jay G 03-06-2012 06:49 PM

Clutch issues- Totally STUMPED
 
Here's the scenario, Ill try to make it as short as possible.

Ive installed an s52/zf trans into my e30.

The parts ive used are:

e30 clutch master- NEW
E36 m3 slave cyl- NEW
ZF trans
OEM sachs e36 m3 clutch kit- TOB included- NEW
Dual mass stock flywheel- resurfaced
Clutch fork ok, clip for pivot intact

I bled the slave outside of the trans, everything went back together, and seemed ok. I got a decently stiff pedal, but when tried to put the car into gear it wouldnt go, as if the clutch wasnt fully disengaged.

I removed the clutch stop completley for a little more travel. It got slightly better as if i was disengaging it a tad bit more, but still barely going into gear

- Completley stumped out of desperation, I extended the slave cyl rod about a 1/2" thinking id get a bit more pedal up top and disengage a bit more. It seemed to make the pedal feel a TAD better, but still no disengagment.

I noticed the short amount of driving I did ( putting it into gear before starting ) the cluth will engage very close to the floor, like less than an inch. When trying to force it into gear while idling, the car tends to inch foward.

Im totally at a loss, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

cmybimmer 03-06-2012 07:04 PM

How sure are you that the slave is completely bled? I remember when I was working on my buddies e36 tranny, it took forever to bleed the slave completely.. it sounds like your slave cyl isn't pushing all the way..

Also, so you can start the car with it in gear and it doesn't jump forward? Weirddd

Jay G 03-06-2012 07:51 PM

I thought maybe it wasnt totally bled, and that was my problem, but no Im sure its bled.
The clutch does disengage but only very slightly. The car will move only a tad on startup in gear.

Mr Gusta 03-06-2012 07:55 PM

Maybe you installed the clutch disc backwards?

Jay G 03-06-2012 08:01 PM

Nope, nearly impossible. Its stamped right on it "GEARBOX SIDE"

cmybimmer 03-06-2012 08:35 PM

Hmm.. take backward steps. So clutch master is new, are the clutch lines good? Was the transmission fork installed properly, and same for tob? You use the zf pilot bearing correct?

Shyts weird

Jay G 03-06-2012 08:51 PM

Yes, yes, yes, yes, and YES! Pilot bearing stayed with the trans when I pulled it. Everything aside from the e30 clutch master is from the same car.

I pulled the trans to inspect, and the clutch fork seemed fine. It was attatched on one side, the clip was fine. i dont think i overlooked anything.. but thats why i posted, maybe someone had a similar experience.

Gooby 03-06-2012 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E36_Hater433 (Post 6683147)
Maybe you installed the clutch disc backwards?

Irrelevant...my clutch disk is backwards...

dc_wright 03-06-2012 09:10 PM

Does the E30 master have enough volume to move the E36 slave cylinder a sufficient amount? Just a random thought......

cmybimmer 03-06-2012 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay G (Post 6683295)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, and YES! Pilot bearing stayed with the trans when I pulled it. Everything aside from the e30 clutch master is from the same car.

I pulled the trans to inspect, and the clutch fork seemed fine. It was attatched on one side, the clip was fine. i dont think i overlooked anything.. but thats why i posted, maybe someone had a similar experience.

eeenteresting...

Only experience I've had with this is when my slave-cyl died on my old e36 and had similar symptoms as to what you're experiencing... But since your slave cyl is brand new I wouldn't know why that is :/

Gooby 03-06-2012 09:16 PM

It really does sound like air though...

Try bleeding the slave with it still attached to the tranny...also stupid question but is that slave penis thing where it's supposed to be? Is it hitting the clutch fork thing like it's supposed to? (Please Excuse My Vague Vocabulary)

(PEMVV, bitches!)

ForcedFirebird 03-07-2012 02:24 PM

All parts are installed correctly. We have a small indy BMW shop.

Slave has been bled in and out of the trans, all parts are new and installed correctly. We are familiar with all the typical things such as a backwards clutch disk (had a client's car come in like that after they tried to do their own clutch), pivot pin is not worn, TOB is in correctly (we have done 6 or 8 clutches last month alone). Even used the BMW slave bleeding tool, absolutely NO air in the lines. The e30 master will control the slave without issue (typically, not today :(), we had 3 24v swaps in the shop this month and this is something we would suspect if a Getrag was being used, but this entire driveline came out of one car and went in another with just the new hydraulics/clutch kit - well also OBD1 conversion but has nothing to do with the clutch.

Totally stumped.

We even tried a second slave to no avail, perhaps the master is bad, but doubtful since when using the bleeder tool, the pedal was rock hard and keeping pressure on it, it didn't settle at all (like it would if the plunger seal was bad in the master and/or slave).

Never experienced anything like this and a couple hour job has been picked at for 3days.

Mr Gusta 03-07-2012 02:29 PM

At this point I would try a different slave.

Every option seems to have been exhausted

cmybimmer 03-07-2012 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E36_Hater433 (Post 6684964)
At this point I would try a different slave.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedFirebird (Post 6684955)
We even tried a second slave to no avail

You would know more than me... But would it have anything to do with a bad transmission? I don't see why it should.. but since the whole cluctch kit, lines, and slave/master cylinders are new, I can only think of the transmission being the problem (somehow :/)

Mr Gusta 03-07-2012 02:44 PM

thats the thing, engaging and disengaging the clutch wouldn't be a trans issue in most rwd cars :(

Mr Gusta 03-07-2012 02:45 PM

also sorry I meant master cyl

ForcedFirebird 03-07-2012 02:55 PM

The transmission and clutch worked flawlessly in the old chassis. Could be a bad master, but this would be a first as we use only new FTE and ***, never parts store rebuilds.

drivinfaster 03-07-2012 04:47 PM

i'm thinking that if the engagement is close to the floor and there is not enough free play in the rotating clutch assembly to allow the gears to engage properly. you probably need additional throw in the tob to allow the flexplate proper clearance.

if i understood one of the above posts about some sort of extension on the slave rod and it seemed to help, i would pursue this line of reasoning and use a longer rod.

or a 'deeper' tob.

or a different clutch fork.

it does not sound to me like air in the system as that usually is indicated by no pedal feel.

and i have seen clutches installed backwards on many vehicles that showed no shifting issues. sometimes i guess it may not matter...:dunno:



df

Gooby 03-07-2012 05:01 PM

I just thought of something...could it maybe be that paperclip thing the pulls the clutch fork back or something?

ForcedFirebird 03-07-2012 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drivinfaster (Post 6685281)
i'm thinking that if the engagement is close to the floor and there is not enough free play in the rotating clutch assembly to allow the gears to engage properly. you probably need additional throw in the tob to allow the flexplate proper clearance.

if i understood one of the above posts about some sort of extension on the slave rod and it seemed to help, i would pursue this line of reasoning and use a longer rod.

or a 'deeper' tob.

or a different clutch fork.

it does not sound to me like air in the system as that usually is indicated by no pedal feel.

and i have seen clutches installed backwards on many vehicles that showed no shifting issues. sometimes i guess it may not matter...:dunno:



df

No, lengthening of the rod didn't help, perhaps a placebo. We usually do that on mismatched swaps. Some e30 G260 trans have deeper bell housings (early dual mass) and/or longer fork pins and need to be modified. The thing is, this is all stock 1997 m3 parts except for the master, we have to ignore it's in another chassis. The e36 and e30 slaves are identical internally, including the length of the push rod, they just mount differently in that the piston travels inside the bell housing on the ZF, so to speak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaptinKP (Post 6685306)
I just thought of something...could it maybe be that paperclip thing the pulls the clutch fork back or something?

The spring on the fork pin is in perfect shape and the pin only has a slight wear on it, but the length proper.

We are going to have a master overnight-ed, hopefully this is it, but am skeptical since when the slave was in a fixture, the pedal wouldn't "bleed" down, but has a bit of perspiration on the edges of the rubber accordion now.

Mr Gusta 03-07-2012 07:07 PM

good luck, hopefully its the master.

ForcedFirebird 03-07-2012 08:17 PM

Just realized that the other brand F.A.G. was deleted in the last post, lol, yet it's okay to say penis.

cmybimmer 03-07-2012 08:18 PM

and gay lol

Dominic49 03-08-2012 11:17 AM

What step was machined into the flywheel when it was resurfaced?
Do you have the dowels in the block still?
Did you rest the input shaft on the disc as you were installing it?

Working in the warranty dept. for an aftermarket clutch company has shown me a million different ways that can keep a clutch from releasing fully.

ForcedFirebird 03-08-2012 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominic49 (Post 6687181)
What step was machined into the flywheel when it was resurfaced?
Do you have the dowels in the block still?
Did you rest the input shaft on the disc as you were installing it?

Working in the warranty dept. for an aftermarket clutch company has shown me a million different ways that can keep a clutch from releasing fully.

Not sure. I was skeptical bout having a dual mass shaved, usually replace them with a single mass. Jay brought it to a local clutch shop to have surfaced.

Yes.

No.


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