Bimmerfest - BMW Forums

Bimmerfest - BMW Forums (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/index.php)
-   F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current) (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=153)
-   -   M Sport Brakes (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=619449)

vmpatterson 05-07-2012 09:15 AM

M Sport Brakes
 
I am another new member who has found a lot of good info on the site and informative discussions.

I am considering a new 2013(?) 328 ix. I have seen numerous 60-0 stopping distances reported from 107 to 116 feet. Obviously one expects some differences in test but this ranges from excellent to average. Tires might be the different or test conditions but I would like to see some discussion on this as well as discussions on the idea of upgrading to the M Sport brakes at the time of order. Any ideas what the M Sport brakes might do to stopping distance. Brake fade is not much of a consideration since I don't plan to track the car and although I drive the corners quickly do it smoothly with out a lot of braking.

Also might consider going to the M Sport that looks like it will be added this summer rather than the Sport Line if some options I want are added. Does anyone think the M Sport will come with the x drive? Trying to get as much info as possible before placing an order.

I have been a long time Volvo fan and currently have a 2006 V70R which is great and would be replacing a 1998 S70 T-5 which has been a good car for 175 K but my wife has RA and wants an automatic. The other consideration is a new S60R which is faster and some other advantages but the 328 seems to be a better drive with better mpg, trunk space, etc. Not happy with BMW on run flat tires, grouping of desired options, i.e. xenon, garage door opener into expensive packages. Seems a bit arrogant but that may be premature opinion.

Vern

Navy60 05-07-2012 11:19 AM

They still make volvos? Sorry, couldn't help it.

vmpatterson 05-07-2012 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navy60 (Post 6819551)
They still make volvos? Sorry, couldn't help it.

They still have a Navy????? I thought they dropped it after they dropped football.

Actually I have quite a few Navy friends after a joint assignment on Guam.

Vern(Air Force)

andy966 05-07-2012 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navy60 (Post 6819551)
They still make volvos? Sorry, couldn't help it.

Yes, Ford makes em now though. So basically you are buying a Ford.

LS2 MN6 05-07-2012 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy966 (Post 6819646)
Yes, Ford makes em now though. So basically you are buying a Ford.

Ford used to make them.

They've been Chinese owned for a little over a year now.

andy966 05-07-2012 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LS2 MN6 (Post 6819650)
Ford used to make them.

They've been Chinese owned for a little over a year now.

Oh wow! I didn't know that. But is that good news or bad news?

vmpatterson 05-07-2012 12:18 PM

Still a question on where Volvo will go with the new ownership. I think Ford took a lot of Volvo technology and sold them after they made them money for several years when sales dropped during the recession. The stability control was one of the technologies taken by Ford and not sure about where the S60 came from. I think the new owners will transfer all the Volvo technology to China and likely will spread it throughout their automakers. I am not a fan of the sale but wasn't in favor of Ford ownership either. I have had 3 Volvo's since 1982 and had good luck with all of them. My first one a 245 Turbo wagon when 23 years and over 200K and the interior was still in excellent shape and other than water pumps was very reliable. Now water pumps are much better and the 98 S70 T-5 has been even more reliable. MY V70R is a great wagon and is a fun drive. Not has much fun as my 02 Porsche C4S but its a wagon. The reliability and safety of Volvo is rated above BMW by Consumer Report for whatever that means. The Volvo S60 T-6 was rated just behind the new 328i by Motor Trend ahead of the MB and Audi and the S60R has also been very well rated in the press. Not as good as a S4 or M3 but a whole lot cheaper.

tim330i 05-07-2012 01:31 PM

My guess is the brake distances will be shorter in magazine testing but that will be from the tires more then the brakes.

I don't believe we know the pricing yet, I'm thinking it will be around $2200 based on M Performance Parts brake kit pricing -

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/61890...oto-and-video/

We will have to wait and see how the kit performs. If the price is reasonable I say go for it!

Tim

vmpatterson 05-07-2012 02:03 PM

Tim - I agree that stopping distance should be a bit shorter but tires are likely more of a factor. But a 5-10 foot improvement would certainly be a factor. The disks look to be 1-2 inches larger in diameter with added piston calipers.

I would think any fading would be reduced but that is not a big issue with me. Hopefully pricing will be better than $2200 dollars as I think that was for a retrofit rather than being installed at the factory. Will have to see the pricing.


I have been told the x series will likely come with all-season run flats. I would run them until they wear out and upgrade to a good performing(non-run flats) rain tire afterward and put Nokian Hakkapeliitta on for the winter. I have a steep driveway and have driven up thru 10 inches of snow pushing snow with the front bumper and dragging it with the rear bumper. No slip or slide with the V70R on the Hakk's.


Vern

Elk 05-07-2012 04:01 PM

Tires, if simple braking distance is of concern.

You will not be held back in street driving by the brakes. Don't compare various tests from different sources; temperature, road surface, tires, tire pressure all have a significant impact on braking distance.

Blax 05-07-2012 05:46 PM

I'd love to have orange Brembos on my 3. Tim I assume you'll be getting them on the test car and reporting back.

Question: Besides being an add on, these are not part of the M sport line version of the F30. Right?

tim330i 05-07-2012 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blax (Post 6820265)
I'd love to have orange Brembos on my 3. Tim I assume you'll be getting them on the test car and reporting back.

Question: Besides being an add on, these are not part of the M sport line version of the F30. Right?

There are two different F30 3 series brake upgrade options -

M Sport Brakes - Pricing is TBD, I believe these will be a factory option for cars with the M Sport, which is it's own line, sort of. Details are not 100% clear on how the ordering will work.

BMW M Performance Brakes - $2300, plus the rear rotors for a total MSRP of $2700. I was told the M Performance Brakes are bigger then the M Sport brakes. More info here -

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/61890...oto-and-video/

I would install M Performance Parts Brakes on the 328i if we do a brake upgrade. Stay tuned, we will have the scoop on the first set of M Performance Parts Brakes in the next day or two :)

Tim

Blax 05-07-2012 06:03 PM

Thanks Tim. As always, your notes are awesome and very helpful.

White05X3 05-08-2012 05:53 AM

To me the only reason to do the BBK is for better heat handling at the track. Unless of course the aesthetics are important to you, then go for it. But I would suspect that if you do just brakes and not tires you will not see a significant reduction in stopping distances as the available grip will be the primary weak link.

There may be one really good reason to do the BBK - if the pads load from the top like most Brembo's, then you can change pads at the track while changing tires. It is significantly less hassle than changing BMW's typical fixed caliper pads.

westwest888 05-08-2012 08:02 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by vmpatterson (Post 6819306)
I am another new member who has found a lot of good info on the site and informative discussions.

I am considering a new 2013(?) 328 ix. I have seen numerous 60-0 stopping distances reported from 107 to 116 feet. Obviously one expects some differences in test but this ranges from excellent to average. Tires might be the different or test conditions but I would like to see some discussion on this as well as discussions on the idea of upgrading to the M Sport brakes at the time of order. Any ideas what the M Sport brakes might do to stopping distance. Brake fade is not much of a consideration since I don't plan to track the car and although I drive the corners quickly do it smoothly with out a lot of braking.

Also might consider going to the M Sport that looks like it will be added this summer rather than the Sport Line if some options I want are added. Does anyone think the M Sport will come with the x drive? Trying to get as much info as possible before placing an order.

Vern

The variance in stopping distances is actually due to tire pressure. I think BMW still recommends 32 pounds cold PSI. That gets up to about 39-40 hot. Run it at 35 PSI and you might get 107 feet. Run it at 39 PSI and you'll get 116. Magazines don't record this, but they're more about marketing and product placement than science. Every review has a subjective swing vote factor in the test (scored out of 100) that lets them pick any car as the tallied winner.

The tires on any XI model from the factory are going to be all seasons with a treadwear rating over 400. On any 328i they may also be LRR - low rolling resistance tires. The rule of thumb is: tires do the braking; the brakes convert kinetic energy into heat for venting. So to decrease stopping distances you change the tires.

Track junkies, myself included, find that after about 15 stops from 100 to 60 the stopping distances double. We don't like that because it slows down our lap times just as we are getting in a groove. It's also far less safe because you have to continually account for it. After about 25 minutes the brake pedal goes into the floor and refuses to stop. This is literally the fluid boiling in the lines when the pad contacts the rotor.

In short, you don't need either set of M brakes unless what I've described in paragraph 2 has happened to you. If you're not sure if this has happened to you, see the attached photo. I have to laugh when someone has had these brakes for a year or so and they look like a brand new stainless refrigerator. The rotor should be scorched with a blue tint from heat, the pad should look like a dog chewed on it, and the paint should be melted off the pad backing (they *were* Pagid Yellows but now they are no longer yellow).

Side note - anyone have a preference of either Potenza RE-11 or Pilot Sport Cups?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/att...1&d=1336489170

vmpatterson 05-08-2012 08:10 AM

Thanks - a lot of good comments. I alway look for the best rain tire I can as stopping distance in the rain is much improved over that of the dry tires while the difference between the two is much less in the dry. However, I note that with the new tread designs there are a lot of tires that do both well.

Will see what the pricing is but will likely stick with the sports line and normal brakes. Stealth can be valuable especially if there is no performance improvement.

westwest888 05-08-2012 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vmpatterson (Post 6821195)
Thanks - a lot of good comments. I alway look for the best rain tire I can as stopping distance in the rain is much improved over that of the dry tires while the difference between the two is much less in the dry. However, I note that with the new tread designs there are a lot of tires that do both well.

Will see what the pricing is but will likely stick with the sports line and normal brakes. Stealth can be valuable especially if there is no performance improvement.

A nice aluminum caliper saves 5 pounds per corner. If it's a "floating" rotor - a ring of steel vented rotor attached to a thinner steel hub with grommets - that saves another 5 pounds. But it's really a waste of thousands of dollars if you just care about that. It's tech you don't need.

Guide your tire buying choice on dollars versus stopping. The most extreme street tires are 180 treadwear rating. They will not last longer than 15,000 miles. The hottest tire on the market right now is the Michelin Pilot Super Sport. It's a 300 treadwear rating so you can expect up to 25k miles out of it. People are raving over it. It's a monster on the track.

sleedawg 05-09-2012 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westwest888 (Post 6821182)
The variance in stopping distances is actually due to tire pressure.

Magazines don't record this, but they're more about marketing and product placement than science.

All magazines and independent agencies regardless of the advertising partners have their own scientific testing methodology and go through their checklist before they test a car. This includes tire pressures. All the data (test track condition, car mileage, equipment, etc) is recorded even if it isn't completely shared with the public. This is the job of the tester (who is usually different from the writer/editor). AMCI which is one of the most respected automotive testing agencies and is used for most manufacturers test specs goes to the lengths of a complete inspection of the test vehicle with all the factory specs prior to testing including wheel tire balance check and alignment.

In this particular case... 107 feet to 116 feet is the best recorded for the exact vehicle they were given to test at that moment in time from two different sources. That's a difference of 9 feet or 8.4%. How repeatable do you think braking measurements can be with all the various factors that take place on a test track with two different vehicles in two different locations? If you look at the data from some of the magazines, they will even state the best and the worst and average stop with the one vehicle they're testing.

Also take into account that each car in a manufacturers media/PR fleet is usually equipped with different levels of options (aka weight). They don't always have the same tires either. Add in the fact that each car in the fleet have different level of break in. Some come straight from the factory to the magazines/testers and some are well worn/broken in/beaten with more than a thousand miles of hard driving.

I'm sure you will agree from your extensive experiences from the track that a set of tires and brakes have a performance curve and there's a sweet spot in each. Where do you think a relatively new set of tires and brakes are on that curve? In addition, you know a set of tires, brakes etc can range from a sweet cherry set to a horrible set. No two parts are ever 100% alike.

Vehicle testers have to drive the cars they're given regardless in what shape they get them and return the car in a set number of days. Is there a possibility that any of these and hundreds of other factors could impact the results within 8.4%? Believe me... testers are not so stupid to not know what pressures to set for a test. They have to earn the right to make their low wages they get for working in this industry.

White05X3 05-10-2012 06:09 AM

As an interesting aside in this thread, but still on topic, I checked with realoem.com and found that there is already a listing for the M Sport brake pads and calipers. The calipers appear to be the same. However the part number for the brake pads on cars with M Sport are the same as the pads for european market 328i's. US marker cars without M Sport have a unique brake pad part number, suggesting that part of the stopping distance issues in press cars have to do with our US pads.

westwest888 05-10-2012 12:57 PM

I think it would largely depend on whether you did the braking test first, or did it after skidpad and other track exercises. Surely they don't measure the tire pressure and adjust before each run of each test. I'd guess they set it once in the morning and go about multiple runs of each test.

Elk 05-10-2012 03:52 PM

Tire pressure is merely one of many variables. Once we consider tire temperature, temperature of the pads and disks, type of surface and the precise bit of surface utilized, how braking was performed (even if with ABS the process of you you initiate braking makes a difference), weight of fuel in the car, etc.

BTW, if your brake fluid is boiling after only 20-25 minutes you desperately need to get cooling to the brakes. Also, the tires in the picture have too much pressure in them if the picture is taken fresh after a session.

tim330i 05-10-2012 04:00 PM

The first set of BMW M Performance Parts Brakes have been installed. This could be a viable brake upgrade option if the M Sport package is not an option for the 2013 F30 xDrive -

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=620168

Tim


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:46 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms