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-   -   Just test drove a couple of 328i's back to back... (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=629825)

ningster 06-27-2012 05:56 PM

Just test drove a couple of 328i's back to back...
 
I went to the dealer and test drove the new 328i sedan with turbo four engine, then compared it with the 328i coupe with NA six. I gotta say, the four is nice with the new interior, cool shifter, push button change in driving mode (sport, comfort, economy)... but the engine power and turbo was not my cup of tea! I felt like it was just an overworked four banger, and I was bored with it by the end of my test drive...

the NA six 328i coupe was much much better! I wish it had the new interior tho...

so I am in love with the NA six, and the new interior. The salesman said I'd have to pick one... can't have it all:bawling:

I think I'll wait till next year to test drive a 2014 328i coupe 2.0TT and see how I like it.

Arciga18 06-27-2012 06:41 PM

There's always the 335i... It has the new interior and the 6

SD330i 06-27-2012 07:30 PM

Yep 335i
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Arciga18 (Post 6921554)
There's always the 335i... It has the new interior and the 6

Not much difference in price depending on the Options. You will love the 335i Motor :thumbup::bigpimp: Just Thinking;)

ningster 06-28-2012 11:26 AM

3.0NA vs 2.0TT
 
I'm just not a fan of turbo engines. give me the NA 3.0L6 and I'll be a happy camper! eventhough the mpg is less than stellar...

I wonder what kind of MPG will a 3.0NA get when paired with the 8 speed transmission...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arciga18 (Post 6921554)
There's always the 335i... It has the new interior and the 6


Alpine300ZHP 06-28-2012 11:34 AM

[QUOTE=ningster;6923077]I'm just not a fan of turbo engines. give me the NA 3.0L6 and I'll be a happy camper! eventhough the mpg is less than stellar...

I wonder what kind of MPG will a 3.0NA get when paired with the 8 speed transmission...[/QUOTE]

We will never know because we will never get that engine in the U.S. again. Turbocharging is here to stay and all of us might as well get used to it.

ningster 06-28-2012 12:10 PM

We will never know because we will never get that engine in the U.S. again. Turbocharging is here to stay and all of us might as well get used to it.[/QUOTE]

I wonder how long these turbo4 engines will last. I've seen countless bmw NA-6 engines go close to 200k miles. These turbo4s will probably only get past 120k before retiring...

I'll probably just lease a 328 insteading of buying...

dtc100 06-28-2012 12:20 PM

[QUOTE=Alpine300ZHP;6923104]
Quote:

Originally Posted by ningster (Post 6923077)
I'm just not a fan of turbo engines. give me the NA 3.0L6 and I'll be a happy camper! eventhough the mpg is less than stellar...

I wonder what kind of MPG will a 3.0NA get when paired with the 8 speed transmission...[/QUOTE]

We will never know because we will never get that engine in the U.S. again. Turbocharging is here to stay and all of us might as well get used to it.

When the new 5 series came out with the 8 spd AT, the N/A I6 was still used in the 528i, and the highway mpg rating was 32 as I recall.

voip-ninja 06-28-2012 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ningster (Post 6923190)

I wonder how long these turbo4 engines will last. I've seen countless bmw NA-6 engines go close to 200k miles. These turbo4s will probably only get past 120k before retiring...

I'll probably just lease a 328 insteading of buying...

I think you're probably mistaken. Small turbo engines are incredibly common in Europe (everyone has gone to them, even Ford) and they are still quite reliable.

No question that the normally aspirated engine sounds better and is smoother, but it gets worse fuel economy and actually quite a bit less powerful than the new motor.

Keith2000328i 06-28-2012 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by voip-ninja (Post 6923209)
I think you're probably mistaken. Small turbo engines are incredibly common in Europe (everyone has gone to them, even Ford) and they are still quite reliable.

No question that the normally aspirated engine sounds better and is smoother, but it gets worse fuel economy and actually quite a bit less powerful than the new motor.

I agree. I recently traded in a 2008 535i and when I would get a E90 328i as a loaner car, I felt they were a bit sluggish.

I was pleasantly surprised when I tried out the F30. However, given that the N20 is a new engine, I decided to lease the car (first time leasing for me). I'll reevaluate things in 3 years, but I'm very happy thus far (1 week point).

markdo 06-28-2012 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by voip-ninja (Post 6923209)
i think you're probably mistaken. Small turbo engines are incredibly common in europe (everyone has gone to them, even ford) and they are still quite reliable.

No question that the normally aspirated engine sounds better and is smoother, but it gets worse fuel economy and actually quite a bit less powerful than the new motor.

+1

:)

floydarogers 06-28-2012 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ningster (Post 6923190)
I wonder how long these turbo4 engines will last. I've seen countless bmw NA-6 engines go close to 200k miles. These turbo4s will probably only get past 120k before retiring.

Considering that the 1.8L and 2.0L Audi (and VW) turbo engines the N20 is competing against have gone well over 120K, I doubt there is anything to worry about.

ningster 06-28-2012 01:43 PM

NA vs Turbo
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by voip-ninja (Post 6923209)
I think you're probably mistaken. Small turbo engines are incredibly common in Europe (everyone has gone to them, even Ford) and they are still quite reliable.

No question that the normally aspirated engine sounds better and is smoother, but it gets worse fuel economy and actually quite a bit less powerful than the new motor.

My point was turbo engines don't last as long as NA engines... not how popular they are in europe.

Show me a turbo4 bmw with 200k+ miles and I'll be a believer...;)

Robert A 06-28-2012 01:45 PM

How do you quantify the fuel economy bump with the 4 cylinder? The 528i when from 22 to 23 city mpg when the 240 hp 6 cyl. motor was replaced with the new turbo 4. To me, that's no improvement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by voip-ninja (Post 6923209)
I think you're probably mistaken. Small turbo engines are incredibly common in Europe (everyone has gone to them, even Ford) and they are still quite reliable.

No question that the normally aspirated engine sounds better and is smoother, but it gets worse fuel economy and actually quite a bit less powerful than the new motor.


tim330i 06-28-2012 01:53 PM

Did you have the car in sport mode? My experience has been the opposite, the N20 kills the N52 for driving dynamics.

ningster 06-28-2012 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert A (Post 6923424)
How do you quantify the fuel economy bump with the 4 cylinder? The 528i when from 22 to 23 city mpg when the 240 hp 6 cyl. motor was replaced with the new turbo 4. To me, that's no improvement.

My friend who drives the F30 says he gets close to 40 mpg when cruising on the freeway at 75 mph... there are some new features, such as engine shut down at stop lights, economy setting (eco, comfort, sport) which seems to keep the car at a higher gear (noticeably slower pick up)...

Robert A 06-28-2012 02:17 PM

To be meaningful, we need to know how the guy did with the predecessor engine under the same circumstances. Also, the mpg result had to have been calibrated. And the eco features (start/stop, etc.) can be put on any engine, so those benefits need to be factored out of the equation.



Quote:

Originally Posted by ningster (Post 6923463)
My friend who drives the F30 says he gets close to 40 mpg when cruising on the freeway at 75 mph... there are some new features, such as engine shut down at stop lights, economy setting (eco, comfort, sport) which seems to keep the car at a higher gear (noticeably slower pick up)...


voip-ninja 06-28-2012 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert A (Post 6923424)
How do you quantify the fuel economy bump with the 4 cylinder? The 528i when from 22 to 23 city mpg when the 240 hp 6 cyl. motor was replaced with the new turbo 4. To me, that's no improvement.

The 4 cylinder is a much lighter engine and obviously smaller displacement. It also makes use of direct injection which, as far as I know, the out-going 3.0 I6 did not offer (this is also why it makes the diesel like tick-tick-tick). The 5 series is also quite a bit larger than the 3 series so perhaps the fuel savings improvement was not as dramatic in that vehicle.

All of this is anecdotal, obviously I can't "prove" that the I6 wouldn't get comparable mileage in the F30 as compared to the N20 since obviously that combination is not coming to market... however common sense would dictate that the N20 would get noticeably better mileage, as I said, lighter weight, newer design with DI, etc.

I can say that there is plenty of anecdotal evidence in which a 2.0T with an identical setup (same car, same trans, etc) to a normally aspirated 3.0 engine (V6 not I6) got substantially worse MPG, to the tune of 25% or more difference in both city and highway mileage, as evidenced with the 2.0T A4 compared to the identically equipped 3.0 V6 A4.

Kamdog 06-28-2012 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith2000328i (Post 6923265)
I agree. I recently traded in a 2008 535i and when I would get a E90 328i as a loaner car, I felt they were a bit sluggish.

I was pleasantly surprised when I tried out the F30. However, given that the N20 is a new engine, I decided to lease the car (first time leasing for me). I'll reevaluate things in 3 years, but I'm very happy thus far (1 week point).

Why did you dump the 535i?

It is the bestest :D

Keith2000328i 06-28-2012 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamdog (Post 6923656)
Why did you dump the 535i?

It is the bestest :D

I LOVED that car, but I guess I just got a bad apple. It was in the shop 10 times over the past 2 years. Thankfully I was under warranty the entire time and my local BMW service department could not have been better.

I know my car was definitely the exception and not the rule, but that was one of the reasons why I leased this car. I'm hoping to regain confidence in the brand again before taking on a longer term commitment :)

bmw_or_audi 06-28-2012 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ningster (Post 6923190)
I wonder how long these turbo4 engines will last. I've seen countless bmw NA-6 engines go close to 200k miles. These turbo4s will probably only get past 120k before retiring..

How do people make up such numbers? :) I have an old turbo four, a puny 1.8T with 170Hp/166lb.ft mated to a 5-speed with such short gearing that it turns around 3300-3400rpm while cruising at 80mph. I am closing on 240K. I don't know if there are countless others, but a number of people have reported 200+K, with a couple having gone past 300K. Typically the rest of the car will start falling apart before the engine does.

These newer 2.0T engines have a decade of R&D over mine.

No matter what people say though, you do have to take extra precautions with turbos, especially if the car is driven hard. Cooling down a little before engine shutoff is a must. And you can't stretch the oil change interval to ridiculous lengths.

But stuff does happens. I found out that a co-worker's 535i had the engine replaced because oil was getting past a ring to make it into turbo, thereby eventually ruining it. At least that's what the dealer told him. They replaced his engine under warranty. So that's one major problem that did not involve fuel pump failure. The reliability track record of the turbo-6 doesn't seem great. Hopefully the 4 will do better.

Will the particular engine in the 328i last a long time? Who knows. Only time will tell. But in principle, if designed well and maintained well, it should.

bmw_or_audi 06-28-2012 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert A (Post 6923424)
How do you quantify the fuel economy bump with the 4 cylinder? The 528i when from 22 to 23 city mpg when the 240 hp 6 cyl. motor was replaced with the new turbo 4. To me, that's no improvement.

You are not going to see big improvements in city mpg. In city driving, you are accelerating often from low speed, meaning you are mostly fighting the car's weight. Turbo or not won't make a huge difference. But during freeway cruising, you are barely using 20-30Hp (guessing). At these low power levels, the internal resistance of the engine becomes relatively more important, and the small displacement gives you a clear advantage.

So basically, when you are generating a lot of power, the engine's internal resistance robs a relatively small percentage of power, so small displacement buys you very little. When you are generating low power, such as when cruising at legal speed limits, internal resistance becomes more important in terms of power, so small displacement gets you noticeably more efficiency.

floydarogers 06-29-2012 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi (Post 6924347)
You are not going to see big improvements in city mpg. In city driving, you are accelerating often from low speed, meaning you are mostly fighting the car's weight. Turbo or not won't make a huge difference. But during freeway cruising, you are barely using 20-30Hp (guessing). At these low power levels, the internal resistance of the engine becomes relatively more important, and the small displacement gives you a clear advantage.

So basically, when you are generating a lot of power, the engine's internal resistance robs a relatively small percentage of power, so small displacement buys you very little. When you are generating low power, such as when cruising at legal speed limits, internal resistance becomes more important in terms of power, so small displacement gets you noticeably more efficiency.

That is a pretty good explanation. Hybrid powertrains get better mileage in city precisely because the gas engine doesn't have to constantly "fight" to re-accelerate back to speed. And on the highway, those tiny gas engines are perfectly capable of keeping things moving.
It's also why small diesels get better highway mileage than hybrids.

dtc100 06-29-2012 08:20 AM

The new F10 528i initially was equipped with the old N52 I6 and new 8spd AT, its highway mpg was rated above 30 as I recall.


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