Bimmerfest - BMW Forums

Bimmerfest - BMW Forums (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/index.php)
-   E39 (1997 - 2003) (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=103)
-   -   CCV, Oil Pan Gasket, & Fuel Pump Failure Related? (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=630786)

Jason5driver 07-02-2012 10:39 PM

CCV, Oil Pan Gasket, & Fuel Pump Failure Related?
 
I am almost positive that my CCV is again done for, again....

Link to initial thread:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1850072

I had a retired BMW master tech. (after 28 years) read the live codes on my car last weekend.
I do NOT know if this was for real, since I briefly met him at the outdoor seating area in-front of Starbucks on a Saturday morning.
He was all greasy/dirty (from what looked like working on a car), and had a scanner that read live-codes.
He said the catalytic number was 14, and should read 0, and some other number (I can't remember what...) reads 4, and should read somewhere around 14...
Hence, the reason for my hesitant acceleration when hitting the gas...
He said the timing was retarding...
And, he said the car's high crankcase pressure is the reason for my car's failed oil-pan gasket, and why my fuel pump is making noises (suspected failing again - pump was replaced just last year).
He first suggested replacing the Purge Vent Valve, then later, said to spray a whole can of B-12 carb/throttle body cleaner through the throttle body while the car is running...
This sounded kind of "old-school" to me...

Thoughts....?

I am so tired of changing/replacing this damn CCV...

I last replaced my CCV with the Cold-weather version in Jan. of 2010.
I think I have approximately 15-20k miles on it, maybe...?
Believe me, I definitely have been thinking HARD about deleting the CCV, and installing an Oil catch can....

Recent:
I don't hear a lot of noise coming from the fuel pump area now...
I switched gas stations, and have been using Quick Trip and Shell.
The sounds started when using the Ethanol-free Conoco station, so I stopped going there.

I have noticed that at start-up, the car spits out a LOT of bad fume, almost gasoline smelling...
Running rich?

I also did notice a little bit of a weird sound (humming/ buzzing) from the engine bay at start-up...

I am suspecting:
1. Disa Valve
2. Secondary Air pump/ air valve/ clogged hoses
3. Jet pump hose between gas tanks

And, I have had the car checked again for codes being thrown, and there is still NO codes...
However, I KNOW there is something wrong...

Oil analysis:
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/i...sisPage001.jpg

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/i...sisPage002.jpg

Thanks!
Jason

Jason5driver 07-03-2012 10:45 AM

No one has an idea...?

WDRAcing 07-03-2012 11:37 AM

I don't see how the fuel pump can be related to the other 2 issues at all. Running rich and timing retard can be caused by quite a few things. Is the overly rich smell when the motor is cold or is it every time you start it up. All cars run rich on cold starts and stay rich until they are up to operating temp. Different fuels smell slightly different when burned. Usually depending on the amount of detergents in the fuel. I've smelled different scents after changing petro stations, but I usually just buy gas on base. Which is generic and doesn't have any scent to speak of.

I'm working on a delete for the entire crankcase evac system. It will actually keep the crap OUT of the intake manifold instead of sending it there, not treehugger friendly though :)

Have you checked your static compression numbers? I would, just to see if maybe you have a cylinder allowing more blow-by then usual. If you're motor is ingesting to much blow-by gas, you're ECU is liable to retard timing as you're greatly reducing your effective octane rating by burning blow-by fumes.

Jason5driver 07-03-2012 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WDRAcing (Post 6931929)
I don't see how the fuel pump can be related to the other 2 issues at all.

Running rich and timing retard can be caused by quite a few things.

Is the overly rich smell when the motor is cold or is it every time you start it up?

All cars run rich on cold starts, and stay rich until they are up to operating temp.

Different fuels smell slightly different when burned.
Usually depending on the amount of detergents in the fuel.
I've smelled different scents after changing petro stations, but I usually just buy gas on base.
Which is generic and doesn't have any scent to speak of.

I'm working on a delete for the entire crankcase evac system.
It will actually keep the crap OUT of the intake manifold instead of sending it there, not treehugger friendly though. :)

Have you checked your static compression numbers?

I would, just to see if maybe you have a cylinder allowing more blow-by then usual.

If you're motor is ingesting too much blow-by gas, you're ECU is liable to retard timing as you're greatly reducing your effective octane rating by burning blow-by fumes.

Thanks for your input...!

The fumes are noticeable at start-up, which I guess is normal, but I have noticed it to be more strong.

I do not know the Static Compression numbers yet, but I will have them checked.

Basically, I trying to figure out WHY the CCV continuously fails on my car...
What is causing the CCV to constantly fail on my car...?

I do notice the car drives better after I open up the oil filler cap after parking the car for day to cool off.



I am with you, on keeping the bad oil and moisture from coming back in to the intake manifold.

So, I am assuming you are doing a catch can, or do you plan on still retaining the drain through the oil dipstick tube?

WDRAcing 07-03-2012 02:23 PM

I may keep the drain via dipstick tube, but install the tube going to my catch can. I'm going to use a header mounted evac system for suction.

$39 for this one.

http://static.summitracing.com/globa...SUM-120108.jpg

I'll have a vacuum gauge attached to the catch can to verify the vac #'s. If I don't get enough vacuum, which I doubt will be the case, I'll install an electric vacuum pump like this one from Dorman, to run in conjunction.

$54

http://static.summitracing.com/globa...NB-904-214.jpg

Jason5driver 07-03-2012 03:26 PM

Interesting....^^^....

I am looking at this:
http://store.crawfordperformance.com.../categories/78

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2-5-lite...-answered.html

Or, possibly the Mann-Hummel system:
https://www.mann-hummel.com/company/...=35&rec_no=270

WDRAcing 07-03-2012 04:37 PM

Holy crap they are expensive, my seperator will work very well and cost me maybe 50 bucks in parts.

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Bimmer App

Jason5driver 07-03-2012 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WDRAcing (Post 6932502)
Holy crap they are expensive, my seperator will work very well and cost me maybe 50 bucks in parts.

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Bimmer App

I agree!
What catch can are you using?

Thanks!
Jason

WDRAcing 07-03-2012 07:20 PM

I'll be fabricating the whole thing from scratch.

bluebee 07-04-2012 02:00 AM

This thread has useful information for the ccv delete thread:
- How to do a CCV delete (1)

WDRAcing 07-04-2012 04:45 AM

Just for reference in this thread, since it hasn't been said yet and was mentioned in your above link, keeping the block under vacuum is THE key to proper crankcase evac. A VTA (vent to atmosphere) system doesn't do anything but keep your crankcase from becoming pressurized. The goal should always be the removal of blow-by gases. You're not going to remove any fumes without some form of suction.

Blow-by is what happens during the combustion process. The piston and rings aren't 100% sealed. When the ignition event occurs, some of the combustion by-product passes by the rings and goes into the crankcase. The factory system uses engine vacuum to pull these fumes through an air/oil separator and then sends the leftover fumes directly to the intake manifold. Nothing good comes from this. All motor vehicles use this type of system because it's emissions friendly, not because it's the best method.

Putting the crankcase under vacuum does a couple of positive things right off the bat. It will help seal the piston rings against the sides of the cylinder walls. This has 2 measurable benefits. One being a large reduction in blow-by gases right at the source of the problem. The other is a whp increase that is gained by increasing the combustion efficiency of the motor itself. Since the combustion chamber is now sealed better, it will hold the compression of the combustion event more effectively. Thereby increasing the power output of every piston stroke. I've read in multiple places now that BMW uses low tension piston rings. So keeping a vacuum on the crankcase is imperative. VTA type systems should not be used.

Decreasing or removing blow-by gases from the intake manifold will increase the motor's effective octane ratio as well. The higher your effective octane ratio is, the more timing your ecu can run during all phases. Higher octane also decreases the chance you'll have any knock while putting the motor under a load, like when entering the hwy or passing etc.

doru 07-04-2012 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WDRAcing (Post 6933132)
Just for reference in this thread, since it hasn't been said yet and was mentioned in your above link, keeping the block under vacuum is THE key to proper crankcase evac. A VTA (vent to atmosphere) system doesn't do anything but keep your crankcase from becoming pressurized. The goal should always be the removal of blow-by gases. You're not going to remove any fumes without some form of suction.

Blow-by is what happens during the combustion process. The piston and rings aren't 100% sealed. When the ignition event occurs, some of the combustion by-product passes by the rings and goes into the crankcase. The factory system uses engine vacuum to pull these fumes through an air/oil separator and then sends the leftover fumes directly to the intake manifold. Nothing good comes from this. All motor vehicles use this type of system because it's emissions friendly, not because it's the best method.

Putting the crankcase under vacuum does a couple of positive things right off the bat. It will help seal the piston rings against the sides of the cylinder walls. This has 2 measurable benefits. One being a large reduction in blow-by gases right at the source of the problem. The other is a whp increase that is gained by increasing the combustion efficiency of the motor itself. Since the combustion chamber is now sealed better, it will hold the compression of the combustion event more effectively. Thereby increasing the power output of every piston stroke. I've read in multiple places now that BMW uses low tension piston rings. So keeping a vacuum on the crankcase is imperative. VTA type systems should not be used.

Decreasing or removing blow-by gases from the intake manifold will increase the motor's effective octane ratio as well. The higher your effective octane ratio is, the more timing your ecu can run during all phases. Higher octane also decreases the chance you'll have any knock while putting the motor under a load, like when entering the hwy or passing etc.


Good info right here. Thanks for sharing.

paodeejay 09-03-2012 01:03 AM

Any updates on this thread? I may need to do the ccv diy soon and I see horrible stories on how pita the whole process is.

Dackelone 09-03-2012 03:51 AM

Jason... have you seen these videos?


BMW E38 7 and 5 series M60 M62 M62-TU REAR OSV (membrane) swap in 10 minutes
http://youtu.be/kKNeN8tR3wM

http://youtu.be/s1fTSP8VHvA

Fudman 09-03-2012 05:17 AM

The process for replacing your CCV is definitely a PITA. No difficiult and no special tools required but access is extremely tight. My engine is beginning to show signs (increased oil consumption) of the CCV failing (again) after about 35K. I believe the cause of premature CCV failure is linked to two causes: 1) Short drives after a cold start and 2) Colder weather. These are the conditions that lead to the accumulation of the oil vapor condensate (mayo). It is tough to change the driving environment so if you can't change your driving habits, then accept the need to replace your CCV periodically. If a viable CCV replacement or delete is not identified, I will probably need to replace my CCV again next spring.

johnstern 09-03-2012 10:09 AM

Jason-Your rich running smell at startup reminds me of my car when the fuel pressure regulator was not working causing the car to run very rich at idle. The FPR on your car is part of the fuel filter. If you have access to a fuel pressure gauge, you could monitor fuel pressure while you drive the car rather than just throwing a new fuel filter at the car. That way you could be sure that your fuel pressure is in spec all the time.

paodeejay 09-03-2012 11:01 AM

Fudman, I've been dealing with my suspension and Brakes and overlooked the engine. I'll do tranny this weekend and engine is next. I recently bought a DISA repair kit from germanautosolutions since I hear a rattling sound, but the flapper looks really fine except for the oil inside the manifold, which I suspect CCV have failed already. I live in San Francisco where it's always cold all year and i drive just 2miles to work everyday. I also need to replace the oil filter housing gasket so i think most oil consumption/leak goes there. Here's the list I need to replace. You guys think I can do it all at once?

Oil filter housing gasket
Vanos upper hose
CCV and all four hoses
All Acc belts and tensioner

Jason - I'll follow your Tranny DIY thread. Is there a site that sells the Amsoil ATF other than Amsoil's Official site?

Thanks guys!:)

ztom 09-03-2012 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason5driver (Post 6931017)
I am almost positive that my CCV is again done for, again....

Link to initial thread:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1850072

I had a retired BMW master tech. (after 28 years) read the live codes on my car last weekend.
I do NOT know if this was for real, since I briefly met him at the outdoor seating area in-front of Starbucks on a Saturday morning.
He was all greasy/dirty (from what looked like working on a car), and had a scanner that read live-codes.
He said the catalytic number was 14, and should read 0, and some other number (I can't remember what...) reads 4, and should read somewhere around 14...
Hence, the reason for my hesitant acceleration when hitting the gas...
He said the timing was retarding...
And, he said the car's high crankcase pressure is the reason for my car's failed oil-pan gasket, and why my fuel pump is making noises (suspected failing again - pump was replaced just last year).
He first suggested replacing the Purge Vent Valve, then later, said to spray a whole can of B-12 carb/throttle body cleaner through the throttle body while the car is running...
This sounded kind of "old-school" to me...

Thoughts....?

I am so tired of changing/replacing this damn CCV...

I last replaced my CCV with the Cold-weather version in Jan. of 2010.
I think I have approximately 15-20k miles on it, maybe...?
Believe me, I definitely have been thinking HARD about deleting the CCV, and installing an Oil catch can....

Recent:
I don't hear a lot of noise coming from the fuel pump area now...
I switched gas stations, and have been using Quick Trip and Shell.
The sounds started when using the Ethanol-free Conoco station, so I stopped going there.

I have noticed that at start-up, the car spits out a LOT of bad fume, almost gasoline smelling...
Running rich?

I also did notice a little bit of a weird sound (humming/ buzzing) from the engine bay at start-up...

I am suspecting:
1. Disa Valve
2. Secondary Air pump/ air valve/ clogged hoses
3. Jet pump hose between gas tanks

And, I have had the car checked again for codes being thrown, and there is still NO codes...
However, I KNOW there is something wrong...

Oil analysis:
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/i...sisPage001.jpg

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/i...sisPage002.jpg

Thanks!
Jason


I think a lot of the above is wrong. The crankcase is under slight vacuum, not pressure. I doubt you have so much blow by to pressurize the case. The fpr has nothing to do with the crankcase. The fpr only maintains constant rail pressure, I doubt it's bad. I recommend checking the rail pressure at the Shraeder, also how long it holds pressure after engine off. I would never spray carb cleaner into intake, especially upstream of maf.

Fudman 09-04-2012 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paodeejay (Post 7050515)
Fudman, I've been dealing with my suspension and Brakes and overlooked the engine. I'll do tranny this weekend and engine is next. I recently bought a DISA repair kit from germanautosolutions since I hear a rattling sound, but the flapper looks really fine except for the oil inside the manifold, which I suspect CCV have failed already. I live in San Francisco where it's always cold all year and i drive just 2miles to work everyday. I also need to replace the oil filter housing gasket so i think most oil consumption/leak goes there. Here's the list I need to replace. You guys think I can do it all at once?

Oil filter housing gasket
Vanos upper hose
CCV and all four hoses
All Acc belts and tensioner

Jason - I'll follow your Tranny DIY thread. Is there a site that sells the Amsoil ATF other than Amsoil's Official site?

Thanks guys!:)


You're driving habits (short drives in cold weather) should lead to eventual CCV failure as the engine does not get hot enough to allow the oil condensate to drain back into the sump. If you remove your CCV, you should see the white mayo clogging the dipstick tube and the vent hose. It may also be present on your oil fill cap. Some symptoms are excess oil consumption and smokey exhaust, as oil gets ingested into the intake manifold.

Since the rattling sound was not your DISA (that is actually pretty rare), it is probably your Vanos bearings. Does it occur primarily on a cold start? Beisan has the fix. However, it is a 4-6 job to remove, repair and reinstall the Vanos. This is a highly recommended action as new seals will restore the timing of your engine. Since you plan to replace your belts and tensioners, you will have to remove the fan clutch which is the hardest step in the Vanos procedure.

Doing everything on your list would be a challenge in a single day unless you are very good and fast with a wrench. I tend to be slow and deliberate whenever I service my car as I have seen others cause very expensive damage when they rush. I would set aside two days to do everything on your list. Better safe than sorry.

Lastly, you don't indicate your mileage but you have AC belts and tensioners on your list. If you are in that deep, I would also consider a complete cooling system overhaul, if not previously done. This is the primary weak link that should be addressed at the 100K mark to maintain the overall reliability of the engine.

Jason5driver 09-06-2012 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dackelone (Post 7049978)
Jason... have you seen these videos?

No, I have not seen those videos, but they look great, and very informative...!
Thanks!
However, the videos are with a V8 E39, and my car has the I6.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Fudman (Post 7050031)
The process for replacing your CCV is definitely a PITA.
Not difficult and no special tools required but access is extremely tight.
My engine is beginning to show signs (increased oil consumption) of the CCV failing (again) after about 35K.
I believe the cause of premature CCV failure is linked to two causes:
1) Short drives after a cold start and,
2) Colder weather.
These are the conditions that lead to the accumulation of the oil vapor condensate (mayo).
It is tough to change the driving environment so if you can't change your driving habits, then accept the need to replace your CCV periodically.

If a viable CCV replacement or delete is not identified, I will probably need to replace my CCV again next spring.

Have you replaced the oil dipstick tube with the new version?




Quote:

Originally Posted by johnstern (Post 7050423)
Jason,
Your rich running smell at start-up reminds me of my car when the fuel pressure regulator was not working causing the car to run very rich at idle.
The FPR on your car is part of the fuel filter.
If you have access to a fuel pressure gauge, you could monitor fuel pressure while you drive the car rather than just throwing a new fuel filter at the car.
That way you could be sure that your fuel pressure is in spec all the time.

Thanks!
Yes, you are correct, the fuel filter on the newer E39's have the fuel pressure regulator integrated with the fuel filter.
I have recently replaced the fuel filter, so the fuel pressure regulator is new as well.
And, I have had the fuel pressure checked by my local mechanic via the Schraeder Valve off the fuel rail.
According to him, everything checks out Ok.



Quote:

Originally Posted by paodeejay (Post 7050515)
Fudman, I've been dealing with my suspension and Brakes and overlooked the engine.
I'll do the tranny this weekend, and the engine will be next.
I recently bought a DISA repair kit from 'German Auto Solutions', since I hear a rattling sound.
However, the flapper looks really fine, except for the oil inside the manifold, which leads me to suspect that the CCV has failed already.

I live in San Francisco where it's always cold all year, and I drive just 2 miles to work everyday.

I also need to replace the oil filter housing gasket.
So I think most of the oil consumption/leak is from there.

Here's the list of things I need to replace.
Do you guys think I can do it all at once?

1. Oil filter housing gasket
2. Vanos upper hose
3. CCV and all four hoses
4. All Acc belts and tensioner

Jason -
I'll follow your Tranny DIY thread.
Is there a site that sells the Amsoil ATF other than Amsoil's Official site?

Thanks guys!:)

Yes, you could most definitely do all of those tasks at one time together, since they are all in the same area, however, it might be time consuming...

You can find a local dealer in your area.
Look here at Amsoil's website:
http://www.amsoil.com/frequent.aspx

Quote:

Question: How can I purchase Amsoil products?
Answer: Purchase AMSOIL products online at www.amsoil.com or call 1-800-777-7094.
Become a Preferred Customer and purchase AMSOIL products at wholesale cost, which is approximately 20 percent to 25 percent less than retail price.
AMSOIL products also are available through independent AMSOIL Dealers.
Check the AMSOIL Dealer Locator on the corporate website to find a Dealer in a specific area.
Dealer locator:
http://www.amsoil.com/locator/dealerlocator.aspx




Quote:

Originally Posted by ztom (Post 7051079)
I think a lot of the above is wrong.
The crankcase is under slight vacuum, not pressure.
I doubt you have so much blow by to pressurize the case.
The fuel pressure regulator (FPR) has nothing to do with the crankcase.
The FPR only maintains constant rail pressure; I doubt it's bad.
I recommend checking the rail pressure at the Shraeder, also how long it holds pressure after engine off.
I would never spray carb cleaner into intake, especially upstream of maf.

Yes, you are correct.
The Crankcase/ valve cover is supposed to be under a slight vacuum.
However, once the CCV fails, the car will either give too much vacuum, or too little vacuum, depending on whether the Valve is stuck closed, or open, or there is a clog somewhere, or a break in a hose - causing a large vacuum leak...

I think the problem with my car, as it is now, has a FAILED CCV, and DISA VALVE.
I think the running rich, and hesitation in acceleration are both BIG signs of the Disa Valve being TOAST / BAD.

And, I agree, I would not spray Carb Cleaner through the MAF.
I think the thought was to spray it in-front of the MAF...
So, there would be NO spray through MAF at all.
You would only spray through the Throttle Body, ICF, and Intake Manifold...

The thing with the Disa Valve is, that it is very similar to the CCV Valve, because it is plastic, has a rubber diaphragm, and spring, which will eventually fail again soon....!

While I appreciate Gary at German Auto Solution's kit for the Disa Valve, the kit still does not really fix the idea of the cheap plastic and rubber failing again soon...
I would really like to see an alternative system, that replaces the Disa, without the constant failing plastic and rubber crap...

Thanks!
Jason

doru 09-06-2012 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason5driver (Post 7057464)

Stuff deleted

I would really like to see an alternative system, that replaces the Disa, without the constant failing plastic and rubber crap...

Thanks!
Jason

Toyota. Preferrably Corrola......:rofl:

Dackelone 09-06-2012 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason5driver (Post 7057464)
...And, I agree, I would not spray Carb Cleaner through the MAF.
I think the thought was to spray it in-front of the MAF...
So, there would be NO spray through MAF at all.
You would only spray through the Throttle Body, ICF, and Intake Manifold...

Liqui Moly makes a special intake manifold cleaner. You insert a tube into the intake with the engine running... it sprays a foam into the intake tract/manifold and you rev the engine as it smokes and burns off the sludge and carbon buildup, Works well I've used it before. I am sure they must also sell it in the states.

Or use something like SeaFoam.


LM 5111 Pro-Line Drosselklappen-Reiniger, 400 ml

http://www.amazon.de/LM-5111-Pro-Lin...962174&sr=1-64

Liqui Moly or CRC also make MAF cleaners that you spray onto your MAF to get rid of oilly buildup and dirt.

doru 09-06-2012 05:08 PM

Bavauto carries the Liqui-Moli lineup.
Have the exact same product in my garage, and some others as well.

Jason5driver 09-12-2012 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dackelone (Post 7057780)
Liqui Moly makes a special intake manifold cleaner. You insert a tube into the intake with the engine running... it sprays a foam into the intake tract/manifold and you rev the engine as it smokes and burns off the sludge and carbon buildup, Works well I've used it before. I am sure they must also sell it in the states.

Or use something like SeaFoam.


LM 5111 Pro-Line Drosselklappen-Reiniger, 400 ml

http://www.amazon.de/LM-5111-Pro-Lin...962174&sr=1-64

Liqui Moly or CRC also make MAF cleaners that you spray onto your MAF to get rid of oilly buildup and dirt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by doru (Post 7058247)
Bavauto carries the Liqui-Moli lineup.
Have the exact same product in my garage, and some others as well.


Yep...!
:D
Do you mean this...?
http://www.autohausaz.com/search/pro...8@Engine%20Oil

2037

Liqui Moly
Engine Oil; Motor Clean; Oil Change Prep

Also, I have just recently cleaned the Disa Valve on my car...
Quite interesting...
Link to pictures...
https://picasaweb.google.com/1045590...CIq7qPKsyLnrfQ

doru 09-12-2012 06:24 PM

Hello Jason. I checked your pics related to the DISA. I had a somewhat similar landscape inside the manifold, but with far less "grains". Also, I never had the said "grains" on the DISA.
The "grains" I am talking about are the little sand-like protrusions that are "welded" by the sludged/burned oil I saw inside your manifold as well. Feels almost like sandpaper to the bare hand.
I have also spied some welded sand on the side of the manifold (round opening) where the DISA should seal. Again, I never had that on my car. Maybe dust gets sucked in somwhere and it gets stuck to the manifold walls by the oil mist, then it just gets glued-on by heat.

The ICV which is just below (together with the TB) was also carboned-up solid. It didn't move at all when I tried to shake it. Took quite a while to clean the sucker. After that it would turn freely when I moved it in my hand. The TB was also gunked up on both sides. Not sure how it worked. Had no codes. Plugged in the GT1 and there were no pending codes either.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:37 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms