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-   -   X1 Pre-Order Cold Feet – too many questions – #1) too small? (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632555)

Teleskier 07-11-2012 05:03 PM

X1 Pre-Order Cold Feet – too many questions – #1) too small?
 
Stupid sales manager. He could have made a quick keen profit on a fully-loaded and most-highly-incentivized-options N20 X1 in less than 60 seconds of ‘paperwork’ and have locked me in to ED. I was excited, and was ready to pull the ED pre-order trigger. Instead he played the ‘hot car’ ED-at-almost-US-MSRP price gouging route. And now I had time to think.

There are too many open questions without seeing and driving this car. This “dose of reality” feeling was further driven home by this picture a few posts back:

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/a...yandPCD316.jpg

Holy crap – the alcohol has worn off and suddenly the person at the bar doesn’t look so hot anymore. Here from this realistic person-height photo, it looks just like a lowly and low station wagon – not an SUV at all.

It looks just like an unsexy staid Audi A3!! Yikes! How did that happen? A four door euro-sized station wagon that your Italian grandpa drives.

I _thought_ I had done my homework. I have a HUGE gallery of every X1 picture and video that exists. But only just now, I noticed how all of the BMW promo pics – ALL - show the car from a low below-human-height camera angle. This makes the car look much bigger and grander and SUV-like than it perhaps really is. Are all those people standing around it (including the photographer’s angle) really equally that tall, or is the car just really that short? It’s much more station wagon looking than SUV looking. What will it look like in real life, as you are looking down upon it (like a station wagon) in the parking lot surrounded by Escalades??

I also now notice how the BMW video commercials often do a clever little fast-forward speed-up move whenever the car is shown from this rear angle to obfuscate it. Not its prettiest side.

I need to see this car in person - and in American settings - before I can gamble on this.

My X1 size questions:
• Will it look Honda-Fit small next to American SUVs in the parking lot?
• Will its bad rear angles look ugly in person?
• Will American-sized men (who traditionally don’t sit with their legs squeezed tightly together like many in Europe) feel cramped in the very narrow leg cockpit (to make room for large cupholders on the middle deck)?
• In many pictures, the stock xline X1 looks bigger and sportier and higher with its new 2013 styling highlights than the M-Sport with its pre-2013 uniform unicolor aero package. Will the stock X1 counter-intuitively look better than the M-Sport will in real life?
• Is it small enough where it will drive like a fun fast GTI pocket rocket, or sit high enough that you feel closer to a sluggish tippy SUV like the Q5?
• Will it feel like a cheapest-end kids-first-car GTI, or look like an aging A3 station wagon, or look closer to the prior-generation sporty-but-still-serious looking X3?

The jury is still out. I need to see and drive it in person.

I don’t think it is as much of a sure thing that this car will be the run-away hit in the US that this one dealer thinks it will. I bet many in the US will find it:
• Too VW small
• Too small for taking rear seat adult passengers or more than two kids, never mind the multiple dogs
• Too low to see over traffic
• Too low for nosy looks into other cars
• Too low for real off-road
• The stiff rear hatch too difficult to close for many housewives or older folks
• Rear cargo area height will be too low for those who don’t want to bend down that much when putting groceries or heavy objects in back
• “It’s only a ONE series – the lowest and cheapest BMW” stigma will prevent it being bought for any status symbol.
• VW TDI will beat it for those concerned with good mileage but who still want some driving fun (vs Prius) – better mileage at much lesser cost (esp. if X1 looks VW small and looks of-the-VW-category).

I guess I’ll only know when I see it and drive it in person… this sales manager missed the quick easy ED pre-order sale… but better for me that he did.

Too many questions, too much risk, for the blind faith that it took (never mind the galling price gouging).

I have a feeling that I could either love it or hate it in person, and that a half a centimeter here or there could visually sway it either way.

What pictures convinced you that the X1 looks more like a sporty-active SUV than a staid old-school station wagon?

motordavid 07-11-2012 06:14 PM

We saw dozens of X1s in the GWN last summer...Vancouver area, Alberta, & Ontario. While I had my Canon 40D in my lap for 2 months for road shots, I neglected to shoot any of the X1s. Strictly from fading memory and imo, they look 'OK' in the flesh. You are accurate however, in your assessment of them being 'wagonish' looking and sort of like a slightly lifted 3 series wagon, and more squat/boxy, and less elegantly designed than the X3 or X5.

Not ugly, just not quite as groovy looking as the promo pics, if that translates...

For at least the few dozen here that seem to be salivating for one, BMWNA has done their job in making these things scare, and slightly hyped.

It was on our short list when announced 2+ years ago, but the dearth of product for the US mkt forced our hand in replacing the CEO's pos Honda CR-V with a loaded Hyundai Tucson, for considerably less dough; and she likes it. The X1 may still come up on our car list Juke Box if/when our '01 X5 goes off to Valhalla. But, very disappointed in no 6 spd manual, and a diesel off on the far distant horizon for the US mkt.

Very cogent points/questions on your part; I would think a CDA or Euro owner could give their opins.
GL, mD

adgrant 07-11-2012 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motordavid (Post 6946461)
You are accurate however, in your assessment of them being 'wagonish' looking and sort of like a slightly lifted 3 series wagon, and more squat/boxy, and less elegantly designed than the X3 or X5.

The X1 looks like a slightly lifted 3 series wagon because it is a slightly lifted 3 series wagon (an E91). Its definitely less elegant than the new 3 series wagon (F31) but I don't think it looks any less elegant that the X3 or X5 (I have an X5).

The X1 has a few advantages over the new 3 series wagon though;

1) It's much cheaper.
2) You can get it with a six cylinder engine.
3) The steering feel doesn't suck.

petriej 07-12-2012 09:36 AM

I heard X1 ED will come out of dealer allocation, so you're not going to get the typical awesome deal.

The X1 isn't too small for me, but everyone is different. The thing I worry about is if I'll be happy with Nevada leather. My X5 has nappa, and it is awesome.

Teleskier 07-12-2012 12:13 PM

I asked several times, several people, several ways... this same dealer confirmed that X1 ED does not come out of their dealer allocation and that ED never does. He just wants the MSRP profit since he views it as "you're getting a hot car - why should you pay any less than casual people paying MSRP here on the lot". This might be first gambit puffery, but it really rubbed me the wrong way. And it cost him an immediate turns-out-premature-for-me sale.

If it's going to look like an Audi A3 wagon, I might be forced to re-evaluate the A3 - where I'd get the superior mileage and torque and chipped turbo-kick of TDI diesel, along with the driving enthusiast fun of a real manual transmission.

This car seems to look totally different based on the angle of the shot. Here is another pic I used that tries to narrow down on its size and how it will look in parking lots:

http://www.xbimmers.com/goodiesforyou/P90052189.jpg

petriej 07-12-2012 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teleskier (Post 6947904)
I asked several times, several people, several ways... this same dealer confirmed that X1 ED does not come out of their dealer allocation and that ED never does. He just wants the MSRP profit since he views it as "you're getting a hot car - why should you pay any less than casual people paying MSRP here on the lot". This might be first gambit puffery, but it really rubbed me the wrong way. And it cost him an immediate turns-out-premature-for-me sale.

If it's going to look like an Audi A3 wagon, I might be forced to re-evaluate the A3 - where I'd get the superior mileage and torque and chipped turbo-kick of TDI diesel, along with the driving enthusiast fun of a real manual transmission.

This car seems to look totally different based on the angle of the shot. Here is another pic I used that tries to narrow down on its size and how it will look in parking lots:

http://www.xbimmers.com/goodiesforyou/P90052189.jpg

I'm sorry but this is just wrong. The 1M Coupe is a great example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrian's bmw (Post 6680188)
You mean the Z4 M Coupe or the 1 Series M. I think you mean the 1 Series M. If so, yes, they had to originate from dealer allocation.


speedracerf4i 07-12-2012 03:30 PM

Wagonish
 
Teleskier,

I had all the concerns you had before placing my order for an Xline for my wife. My ED pick up is early October and I can tell you from experience that X1 will come out of your dealer's allocation. Period! don't argue and just accept it as an iron clad fact. That doesn't mean you can't negotiate a little though. I got mine for $500 above ED invoice but that's because the dealer thought my ED order wasn't gonna come out of their allocation. I have an e-mail from BMWNA ED dept (Larissa) sent to my Rep regarding this fact. My dealer was gracious enough to proceed with my order knowing that they could of made more profit with their allocation.

Regarding the wagonish look of the X1, I was a little concerned as well. To minimize this, you can order Sapphire M-pack X1 to best conceal this wagon effect. The black rail + black rocker panel will add heft to the car. My X1 will have silver rocker that will make the car flatter like a wagon, but it was a compromise because my wife likes Terra leather. M-pack has no Jet black or Terra leather available.

I took a gamble without having seen an X1 in person, ever. I too think that the worst the car can look would be like an A3, in which I kind of like anyways.

Good luck with your soul search. Perhaps it would be wise for your to wait a couple of months before you place your order.:thumbup:

investor27 07-13-2012 12:30 AM

Agreed! You do have lots of good questions, so it probably better serves you to wait a few months to see and test drive the X1 before buying.

The A3 is great with respect of the TDI being available, but remember that it does NOT come with all-wheel-drive, which is what you wanted.

The X1 xDrive35i does come with a V6 Twin-scroll turbo engine, but it's mated to an electric power steering instead of a hydraulic power steering in the sDrive28i and xDrive28i.

petriej 07-13-2012 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by investor27 (Post 6948961)
Agreed! You do have lots of good questions, so it probably better serves you to wait a few months to see and test drive the X1 before buying.

The A3 is great with respect of the TDI being available, but remember that it does NOT come with all-wheel-drive, which is what you wanted.

The X1 xDrive35i does come with a V6 Twin-scroll turbo engine, but it's mated to an electric power steering instead of a hydraulic power steering in the sDrive28i and xDrive28i.

Yea, gotta love those BMW V6s....


: popcorn:

Teleskier 07-13-2012 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by investor27 (Post 6948961)
The A3 is great with respect of the TDI being available, but remember that it does NOT come with all-wheel-drive, which is what you wanted.

I've always been fine with FWD. I don't know if it's my driving style or tires (etc), but I frequently do better than many SUVs. One winter around Stratton on snowy roads, several SUVs with NY plates became incensed that I passed them (from VW? My "One less SUV" bumper sticker?) and aggressively and stupidly tried to keep up. I saw them in my rear view mirror sliding off the road into the ditches and trees. They were alright but cars dented up. You have to know your car and how it handles. Feel like many SUV drivers just 'assume' their car is good in snow. Anyway, I never drove an AWD car, so don't know what I'm gaining. The AWD X3 did seem to have vaguely better tire grip when cornering than I'm used to, but I couldn't give it a real track testing.

Also, I use my clutch quite a lot while driving in snow for the extra soft touch and control. I am a bit nervous switching to automatic transmission, where I'll lose that fine-tuned split-second driver control. I can feel the road and grip in my driver connection. I wondered at the time if those SUV drivers were simply removed from the road connection, where they couldn't feel their car's lack of grip on that icy hill stretch and thus were pushing their cars too hard. I could see their cars losing grip, yet strangely they did not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by investor27 (Post 6948961)
The X1 xDrive35i does come with a V6 Twin-scroll turbo engine, but it's mated to an electric power steering instead of a hydraulic power steering in the sDrive28i and xDrive28i.

That and the fact that N55 is not 8spd seems to be an odd choice for MSport. Wouldn't a MSport driver be wanting the hydraulic for the real 'feel the road' connection instead? Or do I have that backwards?

adgrant 07-13-2012 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by investor27 (Post 6948961)
Agreed! You do have lots of good questions, so it probably better serves you to wait a few months to see and test drive the X1 before buying.

The A3 is great with respect of the TDI being available, but remember that it does NOT come with all-wheel-drive, which is what you wanted.

The X1 xDrive35i does come with a V6 Twin-scroll turbo engine, but it's mated to an electric power steering instead of a hydraulic power steering in the sDrive28i and xDrive28i.

The 35 is an inline 6 not a V6. Also where has it been stated that it has electric power steering instead of hydraulic and what was the reason given for this change. It seems very unlikely to be. No other E chassis has electric power steering.

The A3 is basically an expensive VW Golf. Why not just get the Golf.

Teleskier 07-13-2012 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adgrant (Post 6949764)
The A3 is basically an expensive VW Golf. Why not just get the Golf.

If the X1 is just a more expensive Audi A3, and the A3 is just a more expensive Golf, and Golf is just a more expensive..... pretty soon I'll be reduced to riding a bicycle. :)

petriej 07-13-2012 02:10 PM

I understand the Audi -> VW relationship, but I'm not sure anyone could seriously claim the X1 is an expensive A3.

ND40oz 07-13-2012 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adgrant (Post 6949764)
No other E chassis has electric power steering.

Starting with the LCI E87, the E81, E82 and E88 all had electric power steering in Europe, except for the 135i and the 1M.

The efficiency dynamics models of the X1 also have EPS, but I didn't think the regular models did.

Teleskier 07-13-2012 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petriej (Post 6950057)
I understand the Audi -> VW relationship, but I'm not sure anyone could seriously claim the X1 is an expensive A3.

It depends upon what angle the picture is taken from... the one above that caused me panic shows the X1 looking EXACTLY like an A3 from the rear angle (like a small wagon). I don't think the A3 and X1 are so far apart - very much in the same league - especially in that panic picture above.

The other picture I'd be curious to see is the X1 next to a Suburu Forester - to gauge its size and how much like a AWD station wagon it looks like. X1 is likely smaller than the Suburu?

investor27 07-13-2012 06:35 PM

Directly from the BMW US website, under the model X1 xDrive35i's standard options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adgrant (Post 6949764)
The 35 is an inline 6 not a V6. Also where has it been stated that it has electric power steering instead of hydraulic and what was the reason given for this change. It seems very unlikely to be. No other E chassis has electric power steering.

The A3 is basically an expensive VW Golf. Why not just get the Golf.


ND40oz 07-13-2012 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by investor27 (Post 6950499)
Directly from the BMW US website, under the model X1 xDrive35i's standard options.

It states: Servotronic vehicle-speed-sensitive power steering

Doesn't say anything about electric power steering, servotronic is hydraulic.

adgrant 07-14-2012 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teleskier (Post 6950050)
If the X1 is just a more expensive Audi A3, and the A3 is just a more expensive Golf, and Golf is just a more expensive..... pretty soon I'll be reduced to riding a bicycle. :)

I would not describe the X3 as a more expensive A3.

adgrant 07-14-2012 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teleskier (Post 6950050)
If the X1 is just a more expensive Audi A3, and the A3 is just a more expensive Golf, and Golf is just a more expensive..... pretty soon I'll be reduced to riding a bicycle. :)

The X1 is a less expensive 3 series wagon. The A3 is a more expensive Golf. It is built on the same platform.

ND40oz 07-14-2012 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adgrant (Post 6951527)
The X1 is a less expensive 3 series wagon.

With quite a bit less room as well, the X1 really doesn't have that big of a cargo area, especially when compared to the E91.

hhgolf 07-14-2012 04:04 PM

Hatch opening dimensions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ND40oz (Post 6951634)
With quite a bit less room as well, the X1 really doesn't have that big of a cargo area, especially when compared to the E91.

So then if you had to bring your snowblower in for service, presuming the E91, F31, and x1 would all need to ride with open hatch, which would have the biggest mouth for the job? My hunch is the x1. But I would be interested in knowing the real aperture dimensions of these vehicles.

ND40oz 07-14-2012 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hhgolf (Post 6951920)
So then if you had to bring your snowblower in for service, presuming the E91, F31, and x1 would all need to ride with open hatch, which would have the biggest mouth for the job? My hunch is the x1. But I would be interested in knowing the real aperture dimensions of these vehicles.

Haven't seen the F31 yet, but between the E91 and E84 I rented, the X1 had the taller opening, it just wasn't nearly as deep. To fit the same amount of luggage in the X1, you had to pile it up to point where you couldn't see out of the back, whereas in the E91, you could. Or you just had to fold down the rear seats, which is what we ended up doing.

That being said, the snow blower better be pretty short anyway, or it's not fitting in the back of the X1 either.

adgrant 07-14-2012 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ND40oz (Post 6951634)
With quite a bit less room as well, the X1 really doesn't have that big of a cargo area, especially when compared to the E91.

The E91 doesn't have much of a cargo area either. If you want to haul stuff in a BMW, you need an X3 or X5 (the F31 3 series wagon is supposed to mb much better than previous 3 series though).

ND40oz 07-14-2012 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adgrant (Post 6952164)
The E91 doesn't have much of a cargo area either. If you want to haul stuff in a BMW, you need an X3 or X5 (the F31 3 series wagon is supposed to mb much better than previous 3 series though).

We could fit 4 people and their luggage for 10 days in an E91, in the X1, we could only fit 3 people and had to fold down a seat to hold their luggage. Rented them both for a trip just so I could compare them to one another.

investor27 07-14-2012 10:14 PM

No it doesn't. It clearly states electric power steering for the xDrive35i. Link.

And Servotronic can be had with electric or hydraulic, which is why the Electric Power Steering xDrive35i comes standard with Servotronic.



Quote:

Originally Posted by ND40oz (Post 6950610)
It states: Servotronic vehicle-speed-sensitive power steering

Doesn't say anything about electric power steering, servotronic is hydraulic.



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