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-   -   Bad deal? Sneaky sales tactics I suppose. (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=646178)

quagmire82 09-16-2012 06:32 PM

Bad deal? Sneaky sales tactics I suppose.
 
Hi all,

My sister-in-law just got CPO '09 328i with 58k miles for the asking price of 20k at a NY dealership. Her previous car was a 3-series too, but it was ruled a total loss as a result of flood damage. Solid deal I thought and told her it sounded good. I couldn't accompany her at the dealership but the carfax appeared great and it was a 1-owner car.

She signed the paperwork yesterday and called me today after looking at her receipt in a panic. The dealership charged her $1,500 for the Wheel and Tire Protection Package and $2,600 for Maintenance, and apparently, they never explained it to her or informed her.

The Wheel and Tire Package sounds like a complete waste after reading it essentially covers flats/punctures and generalized non-cosmetic damage. I don't have the particulars for the maintenance program, but after reading up on it on the BMW USA website, it sounds like it basically extends the maintenance to 6 years/100,0000 miles. Seems redundant to me as CPO covers 6 years/100,000 miles? Or maybe it is a maintenance plan exclusively through the dealership and not through BMW USA?

I'm certain the Wheel package is a crock. But how about the maintenance? I've been out of the purchasing loop for a little bit, but this seems unfair and sneaky.

Anyone know if the purchaser can someone wiggle out of these fees after the fact? Car was purchased Saturday.

Thanks a bunch gang

kjboyd 09-16-2012 07:04 PM

Maintenance Is different from CPO. CPO is warranty and maintenance is tune ups and oil changes. But sounds like she got owned on the prices. The wheel and tire will replace tires and cracked wheels which I understand in ny isn't such a bad thing to buy.

twhisten 09-16-2012 07:10 PM

The maintenance plan covers the oil changes and regular maintenance. Read exactly what it covers though, because I dont think it covers everything that the original maintenance plan covers.

sunny5280 09-16-2012 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quagmire82 (Post 7077959)
Hi all,

My sister-in-law just got CPO '09 328i with 58k miles for the asking price of 20k at a NY dealership. Her previous car was a 3-series too, but it was ruled a total loss as a result of flood damage. Solid deal I thought and told her it sounded good. I couldn't accompany her at the dealership but the carfax appeared great and it was a 1-owner car.

She signed the paperwork yesterday and called me today after looking at her receipt in a panic. The dealership charged her $1,500 for the Wheel and Tire Protection Package and $2,600 for Maintenance, and apparently, they never explained it to her or informed her.

The Wheel and Tire Package sounds like a complete waste after reading it essentially covers flats/punctures and generalized non-cosmetic damage. I don't have the particulars for the maintenance program, but after reading up on it on the BMW USA website, it sounds like it basically extends the maintenance to 6 years/100,0000 miles. Seems redundant to me as CPO covers 6 years/100,000 miles? Or maybe it is a maintenance plan exclusively through the dealership and not through BMW USA?

I'm certain the Wheel package is a crock. But how about the maintenance? I've been out of the purchasing loop for a little bit, but this seems unfair and sneaky.

Anyone know if the purchaser can someone wiggle out of these fees after the fact? Car was purchased Saturday.

Thanks a bunch gang

What makes it unfair and sneaky?

tturedraider 09-16-2012 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quagmire82 (Post 7077959)
Hi all,

My sister-in-law just got CPO '09 328i with 58k miles for the asking price of 20k at a NY dealership. Her previous car was a 3-series too, but it was ruled a total loss as a result of flood damage. Solid deal I thought and told her it sounded good. I couldn't accompany her at the dealership but the carfax appeared great and it was a 1-owner car.

She signed the paperwork yesterday and called me today after looking at her receipt in a panic. The dealership charged her $1,500 for the Wheel and Tire Protection Package and $2,600 for Maintenance, and apparently, they never explained it to her or informed her.

The Wheel and Tire Package sounds like a complete waste after reading it essentially covers flats/punctures and generalized non-cosmetic damage. I don't have the particulars for the maintenance program, but after reading up on it on the BMW USA website, it sounds like it basically extends the maintenance to 6 years/100,0000 miles. Seems redundant to me as CPO covers 6 years/100,000 miles? Or maybe it is a maintenance plan exclusively through the dealership and not through BMW USA?

I'm certain the Wheel package is a crock. But how about the maintenance? I've been out of the purchasing loop for a little bit, but this seems unfair and sneaky.

Anyone know if the purchaser can someone wiggle out of these fees after the fact? Car was purchased Saturday.

Thanks a bunch gang

Both of those "purchases" should be able to be undone fairly easily with very forceful instructions to the dealership.

Yeoman 09-16-2012 08:18 PM

Your sister in law apparently doesn't know how to say no.. her loss

tturedraider 09-16-2012 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quagmire82 (Post 7077959)
She signed the paperwork yesterday and called me today after looking at her receipt in a panic. The dealership charged her $1,500 for the Wheel and Tire Protection Package and $2,600 for Maintenance, and apparently, they never explained it to her or informed her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunny5280 (Post 7078055)
What makes it unfair and sneaky?

Did you miss reading that paragraph?

Zooks527 09-17-2012 02:19 AM

As tturedraider has noted, pushback on those items should be able to get them cancelled.

The wheel and tire insurance has some value, specially in high pothole areas. The price she was charged for it seems really high, based on what others have reported paying.

The $2500 maintenance plan will only pay for itself if she gets 2 brake jobs out of it, otherwise it is a stunning money pit. Check the "miles to brake change" indicator on the dash to see how many miles to the next brake job, and then figure out if you think it will go through 2 sets in the 42k miles she could own the car before the plan expires. Unless it is very close to the next change, I don't see that one making a lot of sense at that price, either.


FWIW,
George

sunny5280 09-17-2012 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tturedraider (Post 7078134)
Did you miss reading that paragraph?

I read it. Still don't see anything sneaky or unfair.

The X Men 09-17-2012 05:57 AM

Its an old finance manager trick, sneak the extras in there by simply calling some else. One of my dealer called it a value package :) If the OP's SIL lives in NYC and have the sport package in her 3 series, she might want to consider keeping the tire and wheel insuarnce. If not, I would cancel it ASAP.

triplrocks 09-17-2012 06:13 AM

My grandpa just took my 328xi to the dealer and they charged 260$ to register the new battery. They told him he had dirty oil and antifreeze and brake fluid, they said it all had to be changed. We had all that done 2 days ago so he made it clear that he did not like that they were trying to cheat him out of money. They also tried to sell him a maint. Plan.

andrew b 09-17-2012 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunny5280 (Post 7078455)
I read it. Still don't see anything sneaky or unfair.

If they added those packages without informing her (as that paragraph states) and without consent, here in KY that would be legal violation. The contract has to have your initials and signature saying you acknowledge the explanation and accept the packages.

sunny5280 09-17-2012 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrew b (Post 7078529)
If they added those packages without informing her (as that paragraph states) and without consent, here in KY that would be legal violation. The contract has to have your initials and signature saying you acknowledge the explanation and accept the packages.

While I haven't seen the paperwork I can almost guarantee you they have all the initials and signatures required. What I see here is someone who was excited to buy their new car and initialed and signed everything put in front of them without reviewing it.

A friend of mine recently bought a new (used) vehicle. While in with the finance manager she noticed they had included a maintenance program as well as an anti-theft service. When she inquired about them the manager stated they include them with all their vehicles. She said she didn't want them. At first he reiterated they were included in all vehicle purchases and were already in effect on this vehicle. She said that's not her problem and if they weren't removed there was no deal. He removed them. The ironic thing being they are still in effect (because they were so before she decided to buy the vehicle) so she ended up getting both for free.

This seems to be another case of the buyer not taking responsibility for their actions (or possibly inaction in this case). If the OP believes there was fraud here he can try to pursue it in court (assuming asking the dealer to remove them fails). I doubt he will be successful.

The X Men 09-17-2012 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunny5280 (Post 7078585)
While I haven't seen the paperwork I can almost guarantee you they have all the initials and signatures required. What I see here is someone who was excited to buy their new car and initialed and signed everything put in front of them without reviewing it.

I agree, this is most likely the senerio here.

ERdiesel 09-17-2012 11:34 AM

So you're trying to say the purchase price on the car was 20K, and an additional $4,100 was "added" onto that without your sister's knowledge or permission? Highly doubt it, your sister probably signed for them and just regretted the extra cost after the fact. Even if she was in a high state of "excitement" over getting a new car, once the dealer asks you to sign something for $24,100 when you're expecting $20,000, I highly doubt anyone in their right mind would auto sign such an increase. And regardless, if your sister signed for a purchase, it's hers. She needs to pay better attention to what she's getting herself into and stop blaming a dealer who probably was just doing what dealer's do, and that is to try and cross sell on other products related to the car. A simple "no" on her part and refusal to sign any paperwork with the unexpected cost increases would have put the dealer in his place.

laser 09-17-2012 12:27 PM

You know a lot of people don't buy cars from a dealer very often and its easy to get overwhelmed by the excitement of a new car, confused by the stack of papers they shove at you, and caught up in all the sales guy / finance guy double team talk.

It's too bad some dealers take advantage of their customers seemingly deciding they will never see this person again so let's make all the money we can on this sale.

Expected from a used car dealer but unacceptable if this was a BMW dealer.

ERdiesel 09-17-2012 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laser (Post 7079139)
You know a lot of people don't buy cars from a dealer very often and its easy to get overwhelmed by the excitement of a new car, confused by the stack of papers they shove at you, and caught up in all the sales guy / finance guy double team talk.

It's too bad some dealers take advantage of their customers seemingly deciding they will never see this person again so let's make all the money we can on this sale.

Expected from a used car dealer but unacceptable if this was a BMW dealer.



Sorry to be harsh, but unless the buyer is a 12 year old child or someone with the mind of a child, I don't buy that explanation. We're talking about thousands of dollars, not a few dollars. Assuming you're an adult of some intelligence, no one is going to seriously convince me that they can get "duped" into paying an extra $4,100 without their knowledge at the time of the transaction. Some people can just be full of excuses for this and excuses for that and short on personal responsibility.

sunny5280 09-17-2012 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERdiesel (Post 7079154)
Sorry to be harsh, but unless the buyer is a 12 year old child or someone with the mind of a child, I don't buy that explanation. We're talking about thousands of dollars, not a few dollars. Assuming you're an adult of some intelligence, no one is going to seriously convince me that they can get "duped" into paying an extra $4,100 without their knowledge at the time of the transaction. Some people can just be full of excuses for this and excuses for that and short on personal responsibility.

Agree 100%.

laser 09-17-2012 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERdiesel (Post 7079154)
Sorry to be harsh, but unless the buyer is a 12 year old child or someone with the mind of a child, I don't buy that explanation. We're talking about thousands of dollars, not a few dollars. Assuming you're an adult of some intelligence, no one is going to seriously convince me that they can get "duped" into paying an extra $4,100 without their knowledge at the time of the transaction. Some people can just be full of excuses for this and excuses for that and short on personal responsibility.

I think you miss my point.

Agree that adults have to be responsible and I cringe at the thought of people all over the country getting bailed out of mortgages they couldn't or didn't want to pay.

But having experienced the auto "dealer hustle" ever since my first car buying experience where the sales guy hid my trade in keys I think luxury brands like BMW ought to do better. Many do but there are also too many stories of sour customer experiences that tarnish the brand. (not just BMW)

sunny5280 09-17-2012 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laser (Post 7079237)
I think you miss my point.

Agree that adults have to be responsible and I cringe at the thought of people all over the country getting bailed out of mortgages they couldn't or didn't want to pay.

But having experienced the auto "dealer hustle" ever since my first car buying experience where the sales guy hid my trade in keys I think luxury brands like BMW ought to do better. Many do but there are also too many stories of sour customer experiences that tarnish the brand. (not just BMW)

She noticed the information post sale. Why did she not notice it before signing the paperwork?

I see nothing deceptive or dishonest on the part of this dealer. Maybe there's more but with the little information we have everything seems legitimate on the dealers part.

ERdiesel 09-17-2012 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laser (Post 7079237)
I think you miss my point.

Agree that adults have to be responsible and I cringe at the thought of people all over the country getting bailed out of mortgages they couldn't or didn't want to pay.

But having experienced the auto "dealer hustle" ever since my first car buying experience where the sales guy hid my trade in keys I think luxury brands like BMW ought to do better. Many do but there are also too many stories of sour customer experiences that tarnish the brand. (not just BMW)



Nope, I got your point loud and clear and well we can agree to disagree on this.

As far as a dealer hiding your trade in car keys (I assume to keep you from walking away from a potential deal), well yes there is no question that's shady BUT it's also a trick that a shady dealer is likely to employ. Even if you're not aware that this is a trick, DEMANDING your keys back in no uncertain terms will get your keys back. At worse, you lose a few minutes of your life dealing with such a juvenile business practice, but at best, you now know with certainty that the dealership that you're standing in is shady and should be avoided. I surely hope, you walked away from that dealer after they attempted that stunt..........

In any case, that is a far cry from this situation in which we all know as part of the purchasing process there is a contract that is ultimately signed between the seller and buyer with the FULL purchase price disclosed, FULLY transparent to all, and FULLY disclosed to all. Once signed, how can the person claim he/she got "duped" as to where the extra $4,100 came from? The only way to get duped, is if she signs for $20,000 and they somehow forged her signature on something else with all the extras (but if I remember correctly, you sign a bunch of different documents so this would require a lot of forging). Then we're not talking shady, but criminal. Otherwise, OP's sister in law needs to take personal responsibility if the dealership won't cancel the extras.

The X Men 09-17-2012 03:55 PM

I have a good friend who sell Acura, he tells ma all kind of crazy stories. You guys might be surprise at how many people who knows very little about the car buying process, even worst with leasing. A fast talking finance manager can be hard to follow sometime, I try to always slow down the whole process when the finance manager is explaining the numbers. There are plenty of ways to sneak extra stuff in the payment. Like I alaways tell my friends, know your final payment before you even walk into the dealer.

sunny5280 09-17-2012 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The X Men (Post 7079527)
I have a good friend who sell Acura, he tells ma all kind of crazy stories. You guys might be surprise at how many people who knows very little about the car buying process, even worst with leasing. A fast talking finance manager can be hard to follow sometime, I try to always slow down the whole process when the finance manager is explaining the numbers. There are plenty of ways to sneak extra stuff in the payment. Like I alaways tell my friends, know your final payment before you even walk into the dealer.

They can't sneak anything into the contract unless you let them by not reading the paperwork you're signing. As ERdiesel has said: It's difficult to sneak in $4,100 on a $20,000 purchase. That's 20% the price of the car. The OP's SIL should have read the contract before she signed it, not afterwards.

tturedraider 09-17-2012 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The X Men (Post 7079527)
I have a good friend who sell Acura, he tells ma all kind of crazy stories. You guys might be surprise at how many people who knows very little about the car buying process, even worst with leasing. A fast talking finance manager can be hard to follow sometime, I try to always slow down the whole process when the finance manager is explaining the numbers. There are plenty of ways to sneak extra stuff in the payment. Like I alaways tell my friends, know your final payment before you even walk into the dealer.

This is the case for the vast majority of buyers. It may not be wise on the consumer's part, but some of you are giving the average consumer way more credit for their level of intelligence than they are due. Even consumers who can afford to buy BMWs. And most consumers eyes completely glaze over when it comes to the issue of consumer finance.

I know from experience dealers operate on the theory that the majority of customers are willing and able to afford a payment of $100 - $200 more per month than they say is their maximum. And consumers routinely prove this is true. Roughly 95% of buyers are payment buyers. It may not be smart, but it is true.

This happens with men as well as women, but women tend to be a) much more trusting than men, b) much less likely to question a male "authority figure" to his face, and c) less educated about all the intricacies of consumer finance. $4,100 @ 6% for 60 months is just less than $80/month. While most people might notice that increase they are most likely to attribute it to their own lack of knowledge in knowing how to do the calculations correctly and it ends up falling into the payment range they can handle.

Dealers deal with this information every day.....and they still screw it up. The average consumer deals with it every three or four or five or ten years. Taking advantage of novice consumers who trust the dealership personnel to treat them fairly and honestly is the definition of sneaky sales tactics.

sunny5280 09-17-2012 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tturedraider (Post 7079870)
This is the case for the vast majority of buyers. It may not be wise on the consumer's part, but some of you are giving the average consumer way more credit for their level of intelligence than they are due. Even consumers who can afford to buy BMWs. And most consumers eyes completely glaze over when it comes to the issue of consumer finance.

Buying a car is not that difficult. If so many people are unable to do such a basic thing it says a lot to where this countries citizens have gone over the years. And it's not for the positive.


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