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-   -   So now that the F30 has been out a while.. (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=647233)

Kilgore Trout 09-21-2012 08:26 AM

So now that the F30 has been out a while..
 
Thoughts on f30 vs E90? I presume that many of you have been on test drives, had loaners, etc by now.

I just spent a week in an F30, do I have somerliminary opinions.

CALWATERBOY 09-21-2012 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout (Post 7087847)
Thoughts on f30 vs E90? I presume that many of you have been on test drives, had loaners, etc by now.

I just spent a week in an F30, do I have somerliminary opinions.


Whattaya think, having driven?

LegendsNeverDie 09-21-2012 08:45 AM

A lot nicer car with a lot more technology but lacking in the ultimate driving machine department.

laser 09-21-2012 08:51 AM

We were planning to by a new 328 but have lost the urge after seeing, driving loaners, and a little bad taste from my E60 535i and F10 535i.

My wife is big on styling and doesn't see much difference between the new and her LCI refreshed 2009 328i with the 17 in wheel option.

BTW we just replaced the runflat tires on that and it is like a new car driving so much better and more quietly.

My last two guinea pig first released 5 series cars gave me multiple HPFP failures (E60) and delayed throttle response (F10) that the dealer and BMWNA refused to address with a known software update per a documented SIB.

Now you also have to test Start / Stop as well as the new 4 cyl turbo and given BMW's reluctance, at least in my case, to address issues I'll think I'll pass on another beta product. :thumbdwn:

Kilgore Trout 09-21-2012 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY (Post 7087888)
Whattaya think, having driven?

I had mixed feelings. I loved the power of the turbo 4. Once BMW gets a handle on the NVH issues, I think the poweplant will be a gem.

Loved the smooth, slick AT.

Ride comfort, body control, general vehicle dynamics all true BMW. Excellent all around.

Seating is even more comfy than the excellent E90 seats.

Love the exterior styling.

Hated the numb, overly boosted EPS. It is not as horrible as what I have experienced in some recent Acura sedans but still vague.

I think the cabin has taken a huge step down in material quality. The center console is a cheap plastic and lots of exposed edges and badly aligned panels. This is easily the least impressive BMW interior I have experienced. There are also many head scratching ergonomic snafus.

The engine cutoff feature is a bad joke. A worse idea than RFTs.

Kilgore Trout 09-21-2012 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laser (Post 7087900)
We were planning to by a new 328 but have lost the urge after seeing, driving loaners, and a little bad taste from my E60 535i and F10 535i.

My wife is big on styling and doesn't see much difference between the new and her LCI refreshed 2009 328i with the 17 in wheel option.

BTW we just replaced the runflat tires on that and it is like a new car driving so much better and more quietly.

My last two guinea pig first released 5 series cars gave me multiple HPFP failures (E60) and delayed throttle response (F10) that the dealer and BMWNA refused to address with a known software update per a documented SIB.

Now you also have to test Start / Stop as well as the new 4 cyl turbo and given BMW's reluctance, at least in my case, to address issues I'll think I'll pass on another beta product. :thumbdwn:


That stop start feature is insane. It had me constantly swearing under my breath.

slant83 09-21-2012 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laser (Post 7087900)
We were planning to by a new 328 but have lost the urge after seeing, driving loaners, and a little bad taste from my E60 535i and F10 535i.

My wife is big on styling and doesn't see much difference between the new and her LCI refreshed 2009 328i with the 17 in wheel option.

BTW we just replaced the runflat tires on that and it is like a new car driving so much better and more quietly.

My last two guinea pig first released 5 series cars gave me multiple HPFP failures (E60) and delayed throttle response (F10) that the dealer and BMWNA refused to address with a known software update per a documented SIB.

Now you also have to test Start / Stop as well as the new 4 cyl turbo and given BMW's reluctance, at least in my case, to address issues I'll think I'll pass on another beta product. :thumbdwn:


+1 on being a beta tester for BMW..wait it out

DSXMachina 09-21-2012 12:08 PM

I'm not sure they are going to eliminate the NVH sourcing from the 4 cyl. engine, at least the V part of it. [Edit: The following italicised sentence is incorrect but I'll leave it in so that readers will understand later posts: BMW opted not to use counter rotating balance shafts to dynamically balance an engine which otherwise cannot really be balanced like the in-line 6. They claim it was for weight saving reasons, but my guess is that it was really the cost they wanted to avoid.]
Look for more exotic valved motor mounts with silicone filling to reduce the vibration. At least the perceived part of the vibration.
In regard to the auto stop/start feature; it's my understanding that this is a defeatable function. A press of a button is supposed to shut it off. No?
Electronic (direct coupled electric motor dirven) power steering is the devil's tool and does not belong on any car ever hoping to be mentioned in the same sentence as "sports car". Luxo touring barge, yes. 3'er, no.

laser 09-21-2012 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSXMachina (Post 7088266)
I'm not sure they are going to eliminate the NVH sourcing from the 4 cyl. engine, at least the V part of it. BMW opted not to use counter rotating balance shafts to dynamically balance an engine which otherwise cannot really be balanced like the in-line 6. They claim it was for weight saving reasons, but my guess is that it was really the cost they wanted to avoid.
Look for more exotic valved motor mounts with silicone filling to reduce the vibration. At least the perceived part of the vibration.
In regard to the auto stop/start feature; it's my understanding that this is a defeatable function. A press of a button is supposed to shut it off. No?
Electronic (direct coupled electric motor dirven) power steering is the devil's tool and does not belong on any car ever hoped to be mentioned in the same sentence as "sports car". Luxo touring barge, yes. 3'er, no.

No doubt BMW is being corporately driven to keep costs down and is being forced by governments (EU, US and others) to be eco minded.

EPS is much maligned but is actually one of the "new things" that I really don't have a problem with. It's non-parasitic on the engine and contributes to better fuel economy.

Now the clutched alternator that decouples on acceleration and "brakes" when slowing puts adequate charging at risk (on a $450 battery) and leaves me wondering how much that little clutch baby is gonna cost when the warning light comes on.

My S2000 has EPS and the steering is precise.

Kilgore Trout 09-21-2012 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSXMachina (Post 7088266)
I'm not sure they are going to eliminate the NVH sourcing from the 4 cyl. engine, at least the V part of it. BMW opted not to use counter rotating balance shafts to dynamically balance an engine which otherwise cannot really be balanced like the in-line 6. They claim it was for weight saving reasons, but my guess is that it was really the cost they wanted to avoid.
Look for more exotic valved motor mounts with silicone filling to reduce the vibration. At least the perceived part of the vibration.
In regard to the auto stop/start feature; it's my understanding that this is a defeatable function. A press of a button is supposed to shut it off. No?
Electronic (direct coupled electric motor dirven) power steering is the devil's tool and does not belong on any car ever hoping to be mentioned in the same sentence as "sports car". Luxo touring barge, yes. 3'er, no.


I 100% completely agree. Totally true.

And, yeah, the stop/start business can be defeated. Annoying as hell though.

boltjaM3s 09-21-2012 02:05 PM

Gee, what's this thread about?

BJ

Kilgore Trout 09-21-2012 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s (Post 7088515)
Gee, what's this thread about?

BJ

Yay! Welcome back.

tturedraider 09-21-2012 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSXMachina (Post 7088266)
I'm not sure they are going to eliminate the NVH sourcing from the 4 cyl. engine, at least the V part of it. BMW opted not to use counter rotating balance shafts to dynamically balance an engine which otherwise cannot really be balanced like the in-line 6. They claim it was for weight saving reasons, but my guess is that it was really the cost they wanted to avoid.
Look for more exotic valved motor mounts with silicone filling to reduce the vibration. At least the perceived part of the vibration.
In regard to the auto stop/start feature; it's my understanding that this is a defeatable function. A press of a button is supposed to shut it off. No?

DSX, please give us a primer on counter rotating balance shafts. The N20 has a forged crankshaft with four balance weights. It also has an offfset crankshaft. BMW also says it has two counter rotating balance shafts fitted with counter weights. These are driven by the crankshaft.

This information is from a BMW technical training document posted on www.Bimmerboost.com . I Googled "BMW N20 technical".

I don't like the 4 banger. I don't exactly dislike it either. My experience with it is that it is a powerful performer. I don't like it, 'cause it is not an inline six and I think it would not have been exceedingly hard for BMW to keep an inline six in the "lower end" 3er and get the efficiency they were looking for if they had really wanted to. Just a side note - if BMW ever chooses to drop the inline six the odds are high that I will drop BMW.

Nordic_Kat 09-21-2012 06:58 PM

Somewhat on topic:

Regarding the auto-start/stop: I absolutely cannot see the value of this with an AT transmission. For the record, we've had two european loaners both MT (a VW and a Ford SUV) which had the auto-start/stop function. The ONLY good thing about it with an MT is that you can't kill the engine with bad clutching. That said, if you are used to driving an MT, when the engine shuts off it is very disconcerting. I understand the theoretical concept, but in practice? MEH!!

DSXMachina 09-21-2012 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tturedraider (Post 7088853)
DSX, please give us a primer on counter rotating balance shafts. The N20 has a forged crankshaft with four balance weights. It also has an offfset crankshaft. BMW also says it has two counter rotating balance shafts fitted with counter weights. These are driven by the crankshaft.

This information is from a BMW technical training document posted on www.Bimmerboost.com . I Googled "BMW N20 technical".

I don't like the 4 banger. I don't exactly dislike it either. My experience with it is that it is a powerful performer. I don't like it, 'cause it is not an inline six and I think it would not have been exceedingly hard for BMW to keep an inline six in the "lower end" 3er and get the efficiency they were looking for if they had really wanted to. Just a side note - if BMW ever chooses to drop the inline six the odds are high that I will drop BMW.

Caught me asleep at the switch ttu. You are correct, the BMW four is as quoted by you; two balance shafts. I've been reading so much lately about 2-3-4 cylinder gas and diesel engines being developed to meet the new fuel efficiency mandates. I totally mixed up two engines, and to make matters worse I cannot remember which new four cylinder engine has no balance shafts. It's even possible it's a really small 4 and can easily get away without the shafts. Back to the trade mags for me.
If anyone is interested in why balance shafts are required in some engines, how they work and what they look like here's the Wiki link. They explain it better than I can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_shaft

As for dropping the in-line 6, and you dropping BMW, it may be inevitable. It's possible that in 10 years the only 6's will be in low volume M type performance cars so as not to upset the CAFE applecrate. Are you prepared to pay the premium?

DSXMachina 09-21-2012 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nordic_Kat (Post 7088991)
Somewhat on topic:

Regarding the auto-start/stop: I absolutely cannot see the value of this with an AT transmission. For the record, we've had two european loaners both MT (a VW and a Ford SUV) which had the auto-start/stop function. The ONLY good thing about it with an MT is that you can't kill the engine with bad clutching. That said, if you are used to driving an MT, when the engine shuts off it is very disconcerting. I understand the theoretical concept, but in practice? MEH!!

That's the distilled opinion of most journalists who've driven the car. My opinion? It's a gimmick which makes the mpg figure higher when run through the standard test sequence, but one which will be disabled by most drivers in the real world.

-=Hot|Ice=- 09-21-2012 07:26 PM

I've griped that BMW has lost it's way, and I feel that still holds true. BMW is using ///M as a marketing tool. Ever since they've become #1 selling premium luxury car, they've tossed everything about 'The Ultimate Driving Machine' out the window. Material used in their cars are horrible compared to the competition. Reliability is at an all time low. The next M3/M4 are also rumored to have electro-mechanical steering.

chrisk03 09-21-2012 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout (Post 7087847)
Thoughts on f30 vs E90? I presume that many of you have been on test drives, had loaners, etc by now.

I just spent a week in an F30, do I have somerliminary opinions.

Had an F30 335 loaner this week. Concur on the steering and the auto start/stop...good god, the "a-s-s" is awful. I actually stalled the car at the first red light...ha, then hit the off switch. It does kick back on whenever you re-start, but there's apparently a new software update you can request from the dealer to have it default "off". The whole "a-s-s" is a dumb idea, IMO, just something to please the EPA pricks.

Anyway, I would probably give a slight advantage to exterior styling to my E90...just do not like that straight line on the hood of the new F30. And other than the front profile, it doesn't seem to be that much different exterior wise to me b/tw the two. I prefer the layout of the interior in the F30 compared to the E90, especially in iDrive models. I guess I like the "iPad" look better than the double hump. Seats seemed close to the same, although the loaner was not sport, so softer cushioning, and hence an advantage to my E90...I like the harder seat cushioning. The new auto trans seemed much smoother than in my E90, even in "sport" mode, and ride was softer too. Again, attribute most of that to the lux vs msport diff b/tw the cars.

Overall, the new F30 is nice, but isn't enough to get me to want to trade "up" to the newer model when looking at 335 to 335.

My neighbor has the F30 328i sport and I like a lot, but damn it does sound like a diesel. Being a Honda fan, I'm partial to 4 cylinders, but that engine noise would bother the hell out of me. Love the newer electronic gizmos...and normal, "american" cup holders.

tturedraider 09-21-2012 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- (Post 7089034)
I've griped that BMW has lost it's way, and I feel that still holds true. BMW is using ///M as a marketing tool. Ever since they've become #1 selling premium luxury car, they've tossed everything about 'The Ultimate Driving Machine' out the window. Material used in their cars are horrible compared to the competition. Reliability is at an all time low. The next M3/M4 are also rumored to have electro-mechanical steering.

I don't agree with you. BMW doesn't exactly have any kind of stranglehold on the number one spot and they're not under any illusion that they do. As far as materials go, the materials in the F3x are as good as those in the E9x, which are as good as those in the E46, which were substantially better than those in the E36.

tturedraider 09-21-2012 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSXMachina (Post 7089006)
Caught me asleep at the switch ttu. You are correct, the BMW four is as quoted by you; two balance shafts. I've been reading so much lately about 2-3-4 cylinder gas and diesel engines being developed to meet the new fuel efficiency mandates. I totally mixed up two engines, and to make matters worse I cannot remember which new four cylinder engine has no balance shafts. It's even possible it's a really small 4 and can easily get away without the shafts. Back to the trade mags for me.
If anyone is interested in why balance shafts are required in some engines, how they work and what they look like here's the Wiki link. They explain it better than I can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_shaft

As for dropping the in-line 6, and you dropping BMW, it may be inevitable. It's possible that in 10 years the only 6's will be in low volume M type performance cars so as not to upset the CAFE applecrate. Are you prepared to pay the premium?

Thanks for the clarification. I thought maybe I'd lost my marbles when I first read your post. :)

Michael Schott 09-21-2012 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nordic_Kat (Post 7088991)
Somewhat on topic:

Regarding the auto-start/stop: I absolutely cannot see the value of this with an AT transmission. For the record, we've had two european loaners both MT (a VW and a Ford SUV) which had the auto-start/stop function. The ONLY good thing about it with an MT is that you can't kill the engine with bad clutching. That said, if you are used to driving an MT, when the engine shuts off it is very disconcerting. I understand the theoretical concept, but in practice? MEH!!

The value of course is fuel economy. You drive in a busy city so I'm sure you're often stuck in stop and go traffic. How much fuel is being wasted? Overall millions of gallons. This is all about CAFE stds. I know BMW's stop start system is crude but I think you get used to it. BMW has no choice.

tturedraider 09-21-2012 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott (Post 7089071)
The value of course is fuel economy. You drive in a busy city so I'm sure you're often stuck in stop and go traffic. How much fuel is being wasted? Overall millions of gallons. This is all about CAFE stds. I know BMW's stop start system is crude but I think you get used to it. BMW has no choice.

I hate it. I don't care if it saves fuel or how much. I would have the re-coding done or manually disable it EVERY SINGLE TIME. I would absolutely refuse to use it.

DSXMachina 09-21-2012 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tturedraider (Post 7089050)
I don't agree with you. BMW doesn't exactly have any kind of stranglehold on the number one spot and they're not under any illusion that they do. As far as materials go, the materials in the F3x are as good as those in the E9x, which are as good as those in the E46, which were substantially better than those in the E36.

In this week's Automotive News ( a trade newspaper) there is an article that addresses your point. It seems that Audi has their sights on BMW, and to mix up my metaphors a little, may soon be seeing BMW in their rear view mirrors.

It's no secret that BMW is feeling heat from Audi, look at the number of comparo's which put their products head-to-head in the monthly fan mags. In the past few years Audi has kicked BMW's butt when it comes to interior and exterior styling, and has pushed BMW to the wall when it comes to performance. BMW seems to still have that edge, though it's razor thin, and the 3'er (the meat and potatos on BMW's P&L statement) is still recognized as the overall leader in its category.

But being the leader also makes you a target. What Audi most wants from BMW is the only thing which matters; to win the numbers game, because with volume usually comes gross profit. And there's not a shareholder in the world who cares more about slalom times than he does about the speed with which his equity increases. I recall that Audi has beaten BMW several months this year in sales numbers, and may soon beat BMW in annual sales.

I for one am happy BMW is getting a run for the money. Competition is good, it improves the breed. Audi's efforts will result in BMW designing and making cars which can win in the marketplace. It might take a while but I think Audi's surge is going to end up shaking up BMW a little, and make them compete at a higher level than they have been.

Chop362 09-21-2012 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laser (Post 7087900)
We were planning to by a new 328 but have lost the urge after seeing, driving loaners, and a little bad taste from my E60 535i and F10 535i.

My wife is big on styling and doesn't see much difference between the new and her LCI refreshed 2009 328i with the 17 in wheel option.

BTW we just replaced the runflat tires on that and it is like a new car driving so much better and more quietly.

My last two guinea pig first released 5 series cars gave me multiple HPFP failures (E60) and delayed throttle response (F10) that the dealer and BMWNA refused to address with a known software update per a documented SIB.

Now you also have to test Start / Stop as well as the new 4 cyl turbo and given BMW's reluctance, at least in my case, to address issues I'll think I'll pass on another beta product. :thumbdwn:

That's it i'm out,lol....e90 328 looks better and the last of non-turbo's..A keeper for sure:thumbup:

tturedraider 09-21-2012 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSXMachina (Post 7089138)
In this week's Automotive News ( a trade newspaper) there is an article that addresses your point. It seems that Audi has their sights on BMW, and to mix up my metaphors a little, may soon be seeing BMW in their rear view mirrors.

It's no secret that BMW is feeling heat from Audi, look at the number of comparo's which put their products head-to-head in the monthly fan mags. In the past few years Audi has kicked BMW's butt when it comes to interior and exterior styling, and has pushed BMW to the wall when it comes to performance. BMW seems to still have that edge, though it's razor thin, and the 3'er (the meat and potatos on BMW's P&L statement) is still recognized as the overall leader in its category.

But being the leader also makes you a target. What Audi most wants from BMW is the only thing which matters; to win the numbers game, because with volume usually comes gross profit. And there's not a shareholder in the world who cares more about slalom times than he does about the speed with which his equity increases. I recall that Audi has beaten BMW several months this year in sales numbers, and may soon beat BMW in annual sales.

I for one am happy BMW is getting a run for the money. Competition is good, it improves the breed. Audi's efforts will result in BMW designing and making cars which can win in the marketplace. It might take a while but I think Audi's surge is going to end up shaking up BMW a little, and make them compete at a higher level than they have been.

Yes, but personally I think this has more to do with Audi loading up their cars with more stuff than BMW. They are buying their increased sales numbers. I guess you could say they're being the Hyundai/Kia of the high-end German makes. I dont like Audi interiors and their button happy MMI is a nightmare; they are now making it more like iDrive.

I don't know exactly how they equip their cars overseas, but I think FWD is much more acceptable in this class outside the U.S. And, of course, they've really made a name for Quattro; which is well deserved. However, I think when it comes to more "serious" performance BMW still spanks Audi. The FWD issue is exactly why BMW is capitulating with the 1er.

The current A4 FWD CVT is a COMPLETE DOG. But, I'm finding Audis with Quattro and FWD, too, are quite popular in places like my new digs, Chicago. Almost all the Bimmers I see are xDrive.


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