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-   -   Pirelli Winter Sottozero RF 2 VS Bridgestone WS70 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=648267)

Jen4BMW 09-26-2012 06:51 AM

Pirelli Winter Sottozero RF 2 VS Bridgestone WS70
 
Hello,
I am in the market for a good quality winter tire/wheel package for my 2013 X3 35i Msport and need advice. I want good cold, dry, wet and frozen handling and traction but don't want to sacrifice looks? I am posting in our X3 forum because our tire forum gets more "car" not owners.

After researching our forum(s) and tire rack I've narrowed my search down to 18inch packages but I remain open to suggestions for tires and wheels. My budget is around $1600 total.

What do you suggest between the Pirellis and the Bridgestone's? Why? Would you recommend opting for more expensive run flats? Why or why not? I assume we all need sensors no matter correct?

Tire rack has so many wheels to choose from...what are some good brands to focus on offering looks, quality and durability?
Thanks for the input!

lbjgh 09-26-2012 08:19 AM

Jen, I just picked up a set of Sottozero/ BMW 307 rims package from a local dealership. They were last year's stock so I saved $1100 over the current price of $3700.

To be honest I would have preferred Blizzaks because of our previous experiences with that tire and its excellent winter grip.

From online reviews, the Sottozero should be a better cold weather tire both in wet & dry conditions while not being as good as the Blizzaks in the deep snow. The all wheel drive should compensate for the deep snow conditions though.

Here is a youtube video showing the Sottozero's on an X3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxGl7HBEzjI

tango131 09-26-2012 09:26 AM

From experience on Porsche forums with folks who install winter tires on their cars, the sottozeros get mixed results. Some say they don't have good enough traction on the snow and wear out fast. Most folks lean towards Michelin. I have Michelin performance winters on my Porsche, PA2 model, and love them. They handle like an all season tire but grip like a snow tire. Ths is great for a performance car. Another option is the Michelin x ice 2 which is getting great reviews, but that tire is a full winter set up with softer sidewalls, etc. than the winter performance Michelin PA2.

It all depends what you prefer : ultimate traction in snow, but give away wet and dry traction and a more sloppy feeling drive with soft sidewalls; or excellent snow traction, but not best, and much better dry and wet traction and handling characteristics. Because we only get about 8 snows a season on average in Chicago and streets get cleared fast, I chose the performance side of the winter tire equation. If I lived in Canada or Alaska with constant snow on the ground for months on end, I would go for a full on winter tire like the x ice 2.

slambmw 09-26-2012 11:01 AM

I purchased 17" Pirellis with Alloy Rims during the summer and yet to try them. I know little of what constitutes a good winter tire, but the best time to buy is before the cold season. Any winter tire would be preferable than using the current factory units.

alex md 09-26-2012 02:54 PM

i used Michelin Alpine in my X5 a few years ago and they were phenomenal in deep snow

Alex

Jen4BMW 09-27-2012 09:32 AM

IBJGH, what tires spec did you go with? 245/45R 18's or did you go down to 245/45R 17's? Tango131 you raise some good points as well. We probably have a bit colder nastier weather in MN than you do in Chicago but its close and based on last winter there was no snow to your point. I've always preferred Michelin tires but tire rack rates a few other higher. I wonder how reliable tire rack is with their ratings and if marketing dollars influence their ratings??

lbjgh 09-27-2012 11:46 AM

245/50R18 100H Run-Flats without TPMS.

The Canadian cars don't use tire pressure monitoring system (TPMS) on the rims.

tango131 09-27-2012 09:18 PM

These are the tire rack survey ratings for performance winter and regUlar winter. These ratings are averages of customer rating reviews.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/survey...sp?type=W&VT=C

Also helpful are the TR tests where you can see measured tests on wet and dry braking, etc., which gives an idea of how the tire will perform on non snow covered roads, sample of winter test:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=135

We will try the stock pirelli AS this season to see how they go. If they suck in snow, which is possible/likely, we'll get winters next season. Good luck with your purchase and pls report back on performance on whatever you decide.

Sent from iPad.

Jen4BMW 09-28-2012 06:54 AM

Thanks Tango. I saw the Tire Rack ratings. I am no tire expert but I know on my Honda Accord nothing beat the Michelin MXV 4's which tops both the performance winter and extreme winter charts. Their just very expensive.

What I find with MN roads is that we're rarely driving on fresh loose snow. It's almost always tightly packed snow/ice left over from snow plows or were on wet cold salty roads. When it does snow its usually a few slippery inches of powder.

Any insight in how the OEM 19's on my Msport will do in the winter? Hate to soend $2500 right after dropping $55K in July on my X3. Would you hold off to see how the stock tires do or go performance snow or full on winter tires? If I went Michelin PA 2's I wonder if it would be worth the investment over the stock All Season 19 inch Goodyear LS 2's?? Everyone raves about the Blizzaks for pure winter traction but I wonder how smooth and quiet they are or if I'll bounce down the road. Of course DHP might help in this regard.

Thanks,
Jen

Tipsy McStagger 09-28-2012 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jen4BMW (Post 7101594)
Thanks Tango. I saw the Tire Rack ratings. I am no tire expert but I know on my Honda Accord nothing beat the Michelin MXV 4's which tops both the performance winter and extreme winter charts. Their just very expensive.

What I find with MN roads is that we're rarely driving on fresh loose snow. It's almost always tightly packed snow/ice left over from snow plows or were on wet cold salty roads. When it does snow its usually a few slippery inches of powder.

Any insight in how the OEM 19's on my Msport will do in the winter? Hate to soend $2500 right after dropping $55K in July on my X3. Would you hold off to see how the stock tires do or go performance snow or full on winter tires? If I went Michelin PA 2's I wonder if it would be worth the investment over the stock All Season 19 inch Goodyear LS 2's?? Everyone raves about the Blizzaks for pure winter traction but I wonder how smooth and quiet they are or if I'll bounce down the road. Of course DHP might help in this regard.

Thanks,
Jen

jen-

The LS/2s are going to turn into roller skate wheels pretty soon here. I was driving the other night when it was just over 40 degrees and they were already feeling a little greasy. By the survey and test results online they will certainly be a nightmare if we have a normal MSP winter. If we have one like last year though...

Just my two cents - I have settled on winter wheels in 18" (cheap alloys) through either tire rack or tiresbyweb depending on which tire we go decide to go with. We are five blocks outside of city proper so everything gets plowed immediately but we do drive quite a bit through SW minneapolis (ice hell) and like you, I'm on the fence as to which tire type will be best for us. We both telecommute so we don't ever HAVE to drive on bad days, and our second vehicle is a Jeep Cherokee that will go through anything. I'm leaning towards a performance winter tire. If I were a daily commuter, I think the Nokian Hakkapelitta R is the best choice, along with the X-ice Xi3, blizzak LMs, etc. Studless winter tires are just going to be a lot squirmier and squishier than a performance winter or A/S tire. If we have another mild winter or two, the performance oriented winters will look even better. If we get our butts kicked I'll be wishing I ordered Hakkas.

Here is my short list, in order of preference at this point. I'll order within the next few days, looks like we have some time yet.

Vredestein Wintrac4Extreme -- (225/55/18 or 235/50/18 they don't make our stock sizes)
Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 -- (245/50/18)
Nokian Hakkapelitta R -- (245/50/18 non run-flat version)
Michelin Pilot Alpin PA2 ZP -- (245/50/18 only run-flat I'm considering)
Michelin X-ice Xi3 -- (235/50/18)
Blizzak LM-60 -- (235/50/18)

btw, I don't care for the LS/2 RFTs at all, so those are gone this winter and will be replaced with a proper non-RFT summer tire like Pilot Sports, P Zeros or Potenzas. Might also ditch the factory setup altogether and go with a staggered set.

As an aside, the Vredestein package will run $1900 balanced, mounted, TPMS installed and shipped on 18" alloys, and the Hakka Rs are right around $2k even. The Pilots on wheels come in around $2100. Blizzaks around $1700.

My main problem dropping to 17" or going with a mushier, grippier tire is that we have a solid 5-6 months where the average historical high temperature is below 45F and a lot of that time where the main roads are bone dry.

Jen4BMW 09-28-2012 06:57 PM

Great stuff Tipsy. Thanks! I'll ride your coat tails and trust your research. You'll have to let me know what you finally choose for both tires and wheels. One question...without run flats do you just call a tow truck if a tire goes down?

Is there any advantage to getting OEM BMW wheels or isn't there anything overly special about them except the badge in the middle and their hefty price tag? Just out of curiously when you order tires and wheels do you have them sent directly to your home or sent directly to a shop for installation? I live in an apartment and cringe at the thought of hauling tires and wheels around myself. What shop in the Twin Cities are you using?

Just out of curiously do you have DHP on your X3? I can't say I really have any complaints with the Goodyear LS2's as the rides really nice especially in sport mode.

Thanks!
Jen

02420X3 09-29-2012 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jen4BMW (Post 7102984)
Is there any advantage to getting OEM BMW wheels or isn't there anything overly special about them except the badge in the middle and their hefty price tag? Just out of curiously when you order tires and wheels do you have them sent directly to your home or sent directly to a shop for installation? I live in an apartment and cringe at the thought of hauling tires and wheels around myself.

I can't speak for Tipsy, but I can add my observations.

Often, when you buy aftermarket wheels, you can have BMW hub badges added - for a price, and it is usually a small price.

I had Tirerack do both the mounting and the Hunter Road Force balancing for me, so there was no issue there.

I had the Tirerack wheel/tire/TPMS combo that I purchased delivered to my office, where they were dropped on the loading dock. I moved them from the dock to my X3, and then drove the 1.5 miles to the local independent BMW mechanic, who is listed with Tirerack, and who did the summer/winter swap for me. The tires and wheels are effing heavy.

If you remember nothing else that I ever say or write, remember this. You DO NOT want your winter rims/tires delivered to your apartment.

Knowing what I know now, I could have, and should have, had the tires/wheels drop-shipped to the local Tirerack-listed Independent BMW shop. I did not have a relationship with the shop before my first winter/summer tire swap. I do now.

There's one more question that you need to consider... Where are you going to store your off-season sneakers?

lbjgh 09-29-2012 05:55 AM

1 Attachment(s)
When we discuss winter tires we should also consider our local conditions. What works great for one person may not work as well for others.

Attached is from the most recent consumer's reports.

Jen4BMW 09-29-2012 07:48 AM

....and I thought I was a good researcher! Seriously, you guys amaze me. Thanks for the CR snapshot IBGJH and 024 you cleared up the delivery questions I had. Note to self, send tires directly to installer.

I'll be honest and say using an independent tire rack shop scares me given I am so Type A perfectionist minded. What's been your experience using the Tire Racks independent network? What does one look for since the quality of the work is based on the mechanic not necessarily the free coffee in the lobby.

Personally I had some terrible luck going outside the dealer network with my old Honda 2 years ago and ended up trashing a perfectly good hub and wheel do to loose lug nuts.

Thanks!

slambmw 09-29-2012 12:43 PM

Lifting the tires with the alloy wheels are heavy. You need to fold the seats down to get all the tires in the vehicle. So you need to consider storing and transporting these tires.

You can pay BMW to store your tires for a fee...approx $200 annually. So you might consider a storage facility instead and ask someone help to carry to your vehicle.

02420X3 09-29-2012 09:47 PM

Tirerack will mount and balance your new tires and wheels in-house. Your local Tirerack installer would just be mounting them. You should certainly check reviews and comments on them before deciding.

My local Tirerack installer is an independent BMW shop. They have shown me how hard the wheels can be to remove, sometimes requiring a little beating with a rubber mallet. They have shown me buildup that they recommend wire-brushing off, reducing the need for the next rubber mallet beating. They have offered to clean the brake dust residue off of the wheels going into storage. They have also consulted with me as to tire pressures, recommending that I go about 2lbs. higher on both front and rear. I'm very happy with them, and plan to use them for non-dealer work.

You also have to consider what to do with an almost 3-foot stack and 300-350lbs weight of off-season tires and wheels. Perhaps your BMW dealer offers a storage option. Perhaps your dealer wouldn't mind having your Tirerack order drop-shipped to them, and charging you to mount your winter sneakers and store your summer sneakers. Service is a different profit center than Parts, so you're not stepping on Service's toes by buying from Tirerack. At a minimum, Service should know the correct lugbolt torque setting.

BMW4grrl 10-01-2012 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lbjgh (Post 7097499)
Jen, I just picked up a set of Sottozero/ BMW 307 rims package from a local dealership. They were last year's stock so I saved $1100 over the current price of $3700.

To be honest I would have preferred Blizzaks because of our previous experiences with that tire and its excellent winter grip.

From online reviews, the Sottozero should be a better cold weather tire both in wet & dry conditions while not being as good as the Blizzaks in the deep snow. The all wheel drive should compensate for the deep snow conditions though.

Here is a youtube video showing the Sottozero's on an X3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxGl7HBEzjI

lbjgh...what dealership did you use in the GTA. I have just been told that I have to go with the 18" tires for my 35i (M-sport). BMW Autohaus will let me know tomorrow if they have last year's package in stock. I don't want to pay $3,700 for a winter package. I'll go to Tire Rack first. So I'm looking for a saving and hope it's not too late!

Are you able to confirm that our 35i's have to go with 18" wheels. I've now spoken to two different GTA dealerships and they're both telling me the same thing. Bigger brakes (I think callipers) come with the 35i.

lbjgh 10-01-2012 02:48 PM

BMW Autohaus. They had the package advertised on kijiji.ca

I am skeptical that the 35i requires 18" wheel because my research indicates both the 35i and 28i have the same size brakes.

BMW4grrl 10-01-2012 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lbjgh (Post 7100105)
245/50R18 100H Run-Flats without TPMS.

The Canadian cars don't use tire pressure monitoring system (TPMS) on the rims.

lbjgh...if I order from Tire Rack is it true that I do not need to add the TPMS? It's $200 more.

lbjgh 10-01-2012 06:47 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Yep, see attached extract from the manual.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMW4grrl (Post 7107454)
lbjgh...if I order from Tire Rack is it true that I do not need to add the TPMS? It's $200 more.


Tipsy McStagger 10-02-2012 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jen4BMW (Post 7102984)
Great stuff Tipsy. Thanks! I'll ride your coat tails and trust your research. You'll have to let me know what you finally choose for both tires and wheels. One question...without run flats do you just call a tow truck if a tire goes down?

Is there any advantage to getting OEM BMW wheels or isn't there anything overly special about them except the badge in the middle and their hefty price tag? Just out of curiously when you order tires and wheels do you have them sent directly to your home or sent directly to a shop for installation? I live in an apartment and cringe at the thought of hauling tires and wheels around myself. What shop in the Twin Cities are you using?

Just out of curiously do you have DHP on your X3? I can't say I really have any complaints with the Goodyear LS2's as the rides really nice especially in sport mode.

Thanks!
Jen

Jen, sorry it took me so long to respond to you.

As far as the non runflats, I will carry a portable 12v compressor, a patch kit and a can of slime (sealant). I might grab a Continental MobilityKit which appears to fit the bill but haven't researched that much yet. Tbh, I haven't experienced a flat on any vehicle in a couple decades and am not really worried about it. Might join AAA but otherwise we don't travel long distance much during winter months so we are always close to a dealership or repair shop.

We have DHP and I use it almost exclusively in sport mode. I just don't like the ride of RFTs, the stiffer sidewall makes them crashy over bumps compared with a non-RFT. And they cost too much, and weigh a ton.

I'll be using Paul Williams Tire shop because I ordered wheels and tires separately so will need them mounted and balanced. I ended up ordering some nice rotary forged CSL style wheels in 18x8.5 from modbargains.com and got free shipping. I was not comfortable with anything cheaper than the Enkei brand cast wheels from tirerack and these were the same price so no-brainer. Although it will limit how narrow a tire I can use, which is fine. Paid an extra $120 for 4xOEM center caps and 4xM stickers.

Also have decided to order the Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 (non RFT) in the 245/50R18 along with TPMS sensors from tirerack. I'm having everything shipped to my home and I'll take it over to Paul Williams in a couple weeks or so.

Total for wheels, tires, center caps, installed with labor will be right around $2100. It's on the high end of what we wanted to spend but I'm satisfied with the wheel quality and think the tires will be worth the premium.

I called Motorwerks and Minnetonka yesterday and they are both selling the 18" 307 rims with Pirelli Sottozero Serie II RFTs for $2800. That's actually a good price for the package and the BMW wheels will be very high quality.

You might call and ask either the dealerships or Paul Williams about winter tire storage, I'm sure they all offer something.

BMW4grrl 10-03-2012 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lbjgh (Post 7097499)
Jen, I just picked up a set of Sottozero/ BMW 307 rims package from a local dealership. They were last year's stock so I saved $1100 over the current price of $3700.

To be honest I would have preferred Blizzaks because of our previous experiences with that tire and its excellent winter grip.

From online reviews, the Sottozero should be a better cold weather tire both in wet & dry conditions while not being as good as the Blizzaks in the deep snow. The all wheel drive should compensate for the deep snow conditions though.

Here is a youtube video showing the Sottozero's on an X3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxGl7HBEzjI

lbjgh...how long ago did you buy these? I called Tony D. yesterday about the 18" package and his best price was $3,300. I'd buy them if I could get them for $2,600.

lbjgh 10-03-2012 03:21 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I purchased Sept. 17th.

The set that I bought was last year's stock from what they told me.

Here is the ad from Kijiji where they were advertised.

Good luck getting them to match the price. :thumbup:

Tipsy McStagger 10-12-2012 10:27 AM

Got mah winters delivered and mounted a couple days ago. Waiting for jack adapters and wheel hangers from ReverseLogic before mounting. Well that and the weather.

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/o...et/wheels2.jpg
http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/o...et/wheels1.jpg

tango131 10-12-2012 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tipsy McStagger (Post 7129752)
Got mah winters delivered and mounted a couple days ago. Waiting for jack adapters and wheel hangers from ReverseLogic before mounting. Well that and the weather.

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/o...et/wheels2.jpg
http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/o...et/wheels1.jpg

Very nice!!! You will not be disappointed with the PA4's. I have the PA2's ("N-Spec" = Porsche edition), which is 2 generations removed, and they are great performance winters. PA4's should be better.

Do you mind disclosing how much approx. you paid for the package? I'll see how the stock Pirelli C7 do, and if they suck, will go a similar route as you next year.


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