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-   -   Front tire wear question-20" Dunlop OEM's 2,320 miles (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649060)

Ace88 09-30-2012 12:41 PM

Front tire wear question-20" Dunlop OEM's 2,320 miles
 
Hi Guy's,

I have a 2012 X5d with the 20" Dunlops. I have 2,320 miles on X5, maintained tire pressure to precise BMW settings of 33F 35R. No aggressive driving. Steering wheel is dead straight and does not pull in either direction although it does tramline on certain road conditions.

I am noticing feathering or chamfering on both front tires on the outside row of lugs or tread, outside meaning closest to the face of the wheel. It's the same wear on both tires, one is not worse than the other. I began to notice a rumble feeling and sound when coming to a stop or making a U turn, you can feel the coarseness in the steering wheel.

Normal? Need more negative camber? Different tire pressure? :dunno:

Thanks a lot.

ard 09-30-2012 02:26 PM

1. GET THE ALIGNMENT CHECKED.

2. FORGET ABOUT CAMBER- IT IS "TOE" THAT USUALLY KILLS TIRES. People can 'see' the camber so their intuiton is 'tilt the tire and fix the wear. WRONG. The toe is causing the tire to wear.

3. The BMW warranty on alignmnt is only 2000 miles. However, if you get it to the dealer quickly they MIGHT make an exception. The problem is they will gouge you on the alignment up front, say "we'll see what BMW says", and then come back and say 'you're screwed, pays us $300...and about that tire wear, tough"

4. Go to a tire store, get a $99 alignment done.

5. My prediction? Excessive Toe In. You want it 0.01-0.03"

Report back

A

PS There will be many inane posts to follow- about how 20" tires wear faster or about 'you've got to pay to play' (truly moronic)...until you check your alignment, anything else is pointless....

Ace88 09-30-2012 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ard (Post 7105483)
1. GET THE ALIGNMENT CHECKED.

2. FORGET ABOUT CAMBER- IT IS "TOE" THAT USUALLY KILLS TIRES. People can 'see' the camber so their intuiton is 'tilt the tire and fix the wear. WRONG. The toe is causing the tire to wear.

3. The BMW warranty on alignmnt is only 2000 miles. However, if you get it to the dealer quickly they MIGHT make an exception. The problem is they will gouge you on the alignment up front, say "we'll see what BMW says", and then come back and say 'you're screwed, pays us $300...and about that tire wear, tough"

4. Go to a tire store, get a $99 alignment done.

5. My prediction? Excessive Toe In. You want it 0.01-0.03"

Report back

A

PS There will be many inane posts to follow- about how 20" tires wear faster or about 'you've got to pay to play' (truly moronic)...until you check your alignment, anything else is pointless....

Thank you Ard,
I'll see if I can get in later this week and I will report back. Appreciate your response.

CALLAWAY845 10-01-2012 12:42 PM

I agree with ARD, that is not the price you have to pay to have a 20 inch setup. Since I have 139,000 miles (all with 20 inch rims) on my '07, I can speak on this issue. The Dunlops will feel more "engaged" than other brands, and a shorter tire life a consequence of that. Your experience is not typical though. An precise alignment will clarify things for you. Good luck...

Lance Alot 10-01-2012 02:57 PM

I dunno..it seems pretty clear that the 20" tires wear much quicker and lead to more bent rims than the 18" or 19" variant. It sounds like in the case of the OP though, you also have alignment issues. Of course, the low aspect ratio of 20's likely contributes to some of these alignment problems though. Good luck, and keep us posted.

ard 10-01-2012 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Alot (Post 7107197)
I dunno..it seems pretty clear that the 20" tires wear much quicker and lead to more bent rims than the 18" or 19" variant. It sounds like in the case of the OP though, you also have alignment issues. Of course, the low aspect ratio of 20's likely contributes to some of these alignment problems though. Good luck, and keep us posted.

It is an oft repeated excuse than people hear from dealers who would rather blame tires (and peoples' choices of rim/style) than a 'sub optimal' alignment.

I am of the firm conviction that you take the SAME model tire- everything the same- and mount an 18, 19 and 20, AND ALIGN IT FOR BEST WEAR, the differnce in lifetime will not be dramatic. Within 10-20%. All IMO.

The problem with trying to correlate anecdotes here is that 20" rubber tends to be softer compound- and nobody really know WHAT their alignment specs are. In fact most owners will go through tire set after tire set, and never get the alignment checked!

And, as we can all agree- OP with 2400 miles is seeing abnormal wear no matter what the size and compound

quackbury 10-03-2012 06:33 AM

I just replaced my 20" Dunlop RFT's with 20" Bridgestone RFT's. Night and day difference. The bottom line is that the Dunlops are truly crappy tires in every possible respect.

ard is right in saying part of your issue is likely your alignment. But another part is that the Dunlops suck.

Sorry.

Lance Alot 10-03-2012 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quackbury (Post 7110579)
I just replaced my 20" Dunlop RFT's with 20" Bridgestone RFT's. Night and day difference. The bottom line is that the Dunlops are truly crappy tires in every possible respect.

ard is right in saying part of your issue is likely your alignment. But another part is that the Dunlops suck.

Sorry.

Wow, which Bridestones did you get? I have the Dueler 19", and they are pretty crappy IMO.

CALLAWAY845 10-03-2012 09:39 PM

I agree with quackberry, the Bridgestone RFT is much better than the Dunlops. I am on my second set of them, the first set lasted me around 45k. The biggest difference is the rolling resistance factor, the dunlops resisting forward movement much more than the bridgestones.

tonka858 10-05-2012 11:18 AM

how much are the bridgestone?

quackbury 10-05-2012 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonka858 (Post 7115849)
how much are the bridgestone?

I paid $1,400 at Town Fair, including mounting, high speed balance, TPMS rebuild, 4 wheel alignment, disposal and sales tax.

Sent from my HTC Inspire using BimmerApp

Lance Alot 10-05-2012 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonka858 (Post 7115849)
how much are the bridgestone?

I'm guessing it is the Bridegstone Dueler RFT that you are talking about. Do yourself a favor and go test drive an X5 with these things on it before you buy. My experience is that they pretty much so suck. They kind of remind of a big version of the tires that I used to have on my "Big Wheel" as a kid. OK, not that bad, but you get the point.

quackbury 10-05-2012 01:54 PM

Gosh. Wish I'd had you there to tell me what to buy. After 9 BMW's (4 of which were X5's) I'm obviously clueless.

The tires in question are the Dueler HP Sport RFT, one of the two different OE tires BMW fits (the other being the Dunlops). If my X5 wasn't leased, I likely would have gone with another tire, probably the Conti DWS. But since I need to return it at lease end with RFT's, my choices were limited to:
1. Re-up with the Dunlops, which are truly dreadful tires;
2. Switch to the Bridgestones, which couldn't possibly be worse than the Dunlops;
3. Buy non-RFT's and let BMWFS charge me $1,600 at lease end for tires;
4. Buy non-RFT's and hope I could find a set of takeoffs from another Fester when my lease is done.

Opion 1 wasn't an option. Option 3 would have cost me at least $2,500, vs. $1,400 for the so far eminently acceptable Bridgestones. Option 4 was a crap shoot. So I got the Bridgestones thinking they might suck, but so far I like them a lot. As they say, YMMV. But I find Callaway's comments reassuring.

2rlake 10-05-2012 03:17 PM

i have a set of the Continental DWS on order ... my tire guy has replaced several OEM sets with these and has had great customer feedback ... will let you know in a few weeks

quackbury 10-05-2012 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2rlake (Post 7116327)
i have a set of the Continental DWS on order ... my tire guy has replaced several OEM sets with these and has had great customer feedback ... will let you know in a few weeks

Exactly what I would do if mine wasn't a lease.

Sent from my HTC Inspire using BimmerApp

Ace88 10-12-2012 12:31 PM

Update to my alignment
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hi Guy's,
Wanted to update you on what was found during the alignment check on my brand new X5d with 20" Dunlops and NO active steering.

As you know from my first post at the beginning of this thread I noticed what I believed to be abnormal tire wear regardless of tire size.

Ard was dead on!! The toe was off as well as a couple other areas, but the toe was way off.

A little about me, basically you want to buy my vehicles when I sell them. I'm anal to say the very least. All my cars which have included 997S, 550i, 996, 335i and now X5d are pampered or better yet maintained to the T per manufacturers spec. I hand detail myself with the finest products, avoid regular highway driving and poor roads best I can, never let anyone else drive my cars, and just simply take care of my belongings. So what I'm kinda getting at is that no I didn't hit a curb, pothole, speed bump, or go off road. This is clearly a factory miss here.

See specs below.

Thanks Ard.
Ace

tonka858 10-12-2012 12:44 PM

how did you even part with your 997s?

ard 10-12-2012 01:15 PM

Thanks. But your toe is definitely NOT set for optimal wear.

They just 'made it in the green' but did not minimize it. In fact the RF toe os STILL out of spec (spec is 0.03+/-0.03 ...it is 0.07, max SHOULD be 0.06)

You want all 4 set to 0.02 to 0.03.

IMO

Having said all this, you will do better with this setting, but could do even better.

A

bxmxwx 10-12-2012 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quackbury (Post 7116182)
Gosh. Wish I'd had you there to tell me what to buy. After 9 BMW's (4 of which were X5's) I'm obviously clueless.

The tires in question are the Dueler HP Sport RFT, one of the two different OE tires BMW fits (the other being the Dunlops). If my X5 wasn't leased, I likely would have gone with another tire, probably the Conti DWS. But since I need to return it at lease end with RFT's, my choices were limited to:
1. Re-up with the Dunlops, which are truly dreadful tires;
2. Switch to the Bridgestones, which couldn't possibly be worse than the Dunlops;
3. Buy non-RFT's and let BMWFS charge me $1,600 at lease end for tires;
4. Buy non-RFT's and hope I could find a set of takeoffs from another Fester when my lease is done.

Opion 1 wasn't an option. Option 3 would have cost me at least $2,500, vs. $1,400 for the so far eminently acceptable Bridgestones. Option 4 was a crap shoot. So I got the Bridgestones thinking they might suck, but so far I like them a lot. As they say, YMMV. But I find Callaway's comments reassuring.

You could also consider Option 5: Drive OEM tires to close to the minimum specs required by BMW upon lease-end, then replace them with anything your heart desires. On return, put the original tires back. The trick here is to consider this option way before the tires need replacement and I wish I was that smart :) (although I do not lease).

SteelPeddler 10-12-2012 01:36 PM

I basically have a tire shop in my garage. I bought the 21" wheel/tire package for wife's 2010 x5d, to replace the dunlops ($650/tire) I was able to find 20" bmw wheels on ebay and equipped them with conti DWS for same price as 21" tires only. My x5d has Bridgestone 20" Duelers......No comparison, Conti's are the best. Keep in mind, they are not run flats. Spoke to my mechanic at BMW and he is not a fan of RFT. He said put a small air compressor in trunk with a can of green slime (sealant). Again, I can't stress how much better of a ride the conti's have over the Duelers....

Ace88 10-12-2012 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ard (Post 7130162)
Thanks. But your toe is definitely NOT set for optimal wear.

They just 'made it in the green' but did not minimize it. In fact the RF toe os STILL out of spec (spec is 0.03+/-0.03 ...it is 0.07, max SHOULD be 0.06)

You want all 4 set to 0.02 to 0.03.

IMO

Having said all this, you will do better with this setting, but could do even better.

A

Hi Ard,
Why would BMW AG (and I ask because I simply can't imagine) say "target data" for toe is 0.05 left and 0.07 right? Will the BMW dealer even dare go to 0.03 if I ask? I'll bet they'll say they can't set it outside of BMW's specs.

Certainly is much better than it was though right?:dunno:

ard 10-12-2012 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace88 (Post 7130346)
Hi Ard,
Why would BMW AG (and I ask because I simply can't imagine) say "target data" for toe is 0.05 left and 0.07 right? Will the BMW dealer even dare go to 0.03 if I ask? I'll bet they'll say they can't set it outside of BMW's specs.

Certainly is much better than it was though right?:dunno:

You are definitely much better, that much is certain.

The dealer will surely talk you out of this as they dont want to redo it...

There are, for cars that are tracked, reasons you may want toe. Maintaining turn-in stabitlity is one of them. BUT these issues are generally theoretic as nobody is tracking these X70s.

Now, why have a 'target' and then a +/-??? I am involved with spec develoment all the time- sometimes it is just a convention, sometimes there is a preference for the target. SOmetimes you spec 5.00 plus minus 1; or you spec 4.00 to 6.00 or you spec 4.00 plus 2 minus zero. All the same. Keep in mind that the numbers I listed are ALL "within" BMWs spec.... 0.02 is "0.05 minus 0.03"...and since BMWs spec is 0.05 plus minus 0.05, that means any value from 0,00 up to 0.10 is "in BMW spec".

You can choose to believe that BMW knows best, but when you find the few post from folks that press to get the toe on the minimum end of the range and they are seeing 30k miles on a set of tires, you'll know why.

macming 03-13-2013 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ard (Post 7105483)
3. The BMW warranty on alignmnt is only 2000 miles. However, if you get it to the dealer quickly they MIGHT make an exception. The problem is they will gouge you on the alignment up front, say "we'll see what BMW says", and then come back and say 'you're screwed, pays us $300...and about that tire wear, tough"

I got an alignment done tonight, and my front passenger side has a 0.5 degree POSITIVE camber. Since the camber is not adjustment without replacing a control arm, what are my odds of getting it done under warranty? :rofl:

RockChips 03-13-2013 08:59 PM

camber is not adjustable?

i never heard that before

macming 03-13-2013 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockChips (Post 7441924)
camber is not adjustable?

i never heard that before

Front camber is NOT adjustable, only the rear camber is.

Front camber is "adjusted" by using another control arm. BMW makes control arms in three sizes, which is a bit $$ to use for adjustment after all the bushings settle.


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