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-   -   Why turbocharged not supercharged? (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649317)

Donm 10-01-2012 06:50 PM

Why turbocharged not supercharged?
 
Been curious why MB has abandoned supercharging and did BMW ever use it to that extent? Seems twin scroll and twin turbo have taken center stage. The supercharged Jag Supersport motor is a nice drive, I have only driven the XJL though.

Regards to all,
Don M

jjsC6 10-01-2012 07:13 PM

They both have pros and cons. For every advantage one has, I can think of similar advantages to the other. Generally speaking I think turbos have the potential for better fuel economy off boost though - you see turbos on the newer vehicles with lower displacement that are more economy oriented. On the other hand, BMW especially has a knack for tuning the turbos with very broad torque band. Turbos have much less parasitic losses as well. But like I said, it would be easy to sit here and name the disadvantages as well.

daikyu 10-02-2012 04:55 AM

I have a Jaguar XF Supercharged rated at 420HP, and a 550xi rated at 400HP.

My butt dyno says the XF feels quicker. I think it is the always on power from the supercharger. I wish the 550 responded like the XF does. The jag has more of a sportier feel(I did opt for the sportiest version of the car), and the 550 a bit more luxury (I got the non sport version because the Jag sucks in the snow).

Donm 10-02-2012 05:04 AM

The XJL I drove is the 510 HP version and is kick ass from about 50 mph up, no slouch off the line either.

Seems that the turbo plumbing is so much more convoluted that supercharging would be preferred by mfg's but the mpg aspect must be strong.

Thanks for the insight!

daikyu 10-02-2012 05:07 AM

The 510HP Jag engine is the new standard for them. I got the first model year XF 2009 and the engines were smaller.

The XJ is a much bigger vehicle than the XF. Like going from a 5 to a 7 series.

The X Men 10-02-2012 05:19 AM

I would think fuel efficiency is one of the main reason why a lot of car manufacturers are using turbo instead of the supercharger.

Alan L. 10-02-2012 06:31 AM

Turbos tends to have more torque compared to Superchargers. Both have its pros and cons.

Alan

AutoUnion 10-02-2012 06:38 AM

Both have their pros and cons. It's cool to see little engines using both, like that European VW 1.4 twin-charge engine

Donm 10-02-2012 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daikyu (Post 7108216)
The 510HP Jag engine is the new standard for them. I got the first model year XF 2009 and the engines were smaller.

The XJ is a much bigger vehicle than the XF. Like going from a 5 to a 7 series.

Current year XJL specs out as 200 pounds lighter than the XF. I hear that the XJL is aluminum body, have not tested with a magnet but I might do it! It's actually a feat to build a car that light and large. Price reflect it , too:rofl:

AutoUnion 10-02-2012 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donm (Post 7109716)
Current year XJL specs out as 200 pounds lighter than the XF. I hear that the XJL is aluminum body, have not tested with a magnet but I might do it! It's actually a feat to build a car that light and large. Price reflect it , too:rofl:

Yup, XJ is fully aluminum. So is the current Audi A8. That is why it is significantly lighter than an equivalent 7 series, even with its AWD system.

bm323 10-03-2012 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoUnion (Post 7109737)
So is the current Audi A8. That is why it is significantly lighter than an equivalent 7 series, even with its AWD system.

Fellow troll, how is the Audi A8 AWD significantly lighter than the 7 series RWD?

http://models.audiusa.com/a8/detaile...ons?engine=123

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...ata/index.html

Stealth.Pilot 10-03-2012 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bm323 (Post 7112485)
Fellow troll, how is the Audi A8 AWD significantly lighter than the 7 series RWD?

http://models.audiusa.com/a8/detaile...ons?engine=123

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...ata/index.html

Your sources are comparing different countries which have different measurement standards.

Comparing the US website data of BMW and Audi, the SWB A8 weighs 4531lbs and SWB 750i weighs 4575 lbs. which is about the same and in my opinion puts the Audi to shame.

However the Jaguar XJ SWB V8 (no longer available in 2013) weighs 4035lbs which is a substantial weight savings.

So AutoUnion is right about the part of the Jag, but not right about the Audi (I wouldn't call 44 lbs a significant weight saving).

Jaguar has much more sophisticated technology in use of aluminum than Audi and from what I hear the XJ is more rigid too. In my drives I was extremely impressed with the XJ Supersport. If they had BMW electronics, I may have bought one instead of my 550i.

Stealth.Pilot 10-03-2012 10:09 PM

Back on topic, I would like to see a supercharged or triple charged (one supercharger, two turbos) BMW V8 with D4S.

bm323 10-03-2012 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot (Post 7112571)
Your sources are comparing different countries which have different measurement standards.

Comparing the US website data of BMW and Audi, the SWB A8 weighs 4531lbs and SWB 750i weighs 4575 lbs. which is about the same and in my opinion puts the Audi to shame.

However the Jaguar XJ SWB V8 (no longer available in 2013) weighs 4035lbs which is a substantial weight savings.

So AutoUnion is right about the part of the Jag, but not right about the Audi (I wouldn't call 44 lbs a significant weight saving).

Jaguar has much more sophisticated technology in use of aluminum than Audi and from what I hear the XJ is more rigid too. In my drives I was extremely impressed with the XJ Supersport. If they had BMW electronics, I may have bought one instead of my 550i.

Issue is with Audi, not Jaguar - AutoUnion is a "fellow troll" ( and what term did he use? "badge whore" :)) for VAG

A8 3.0T 4376 lbs. [1984 kg]
http://models.audiusa.com/a8/detaile...ons?engine=101

740i 4310 lbs http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

750iL 4660 lbs vs A8 L 4.0T 4597 lbs [2085 kg]

Stealth.Pilot 10-04-2012 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bm323 (Post 7112644)
Issue is with Audi, not Jaguar - AutoUnion is a "fellow troll" ( and what term did he use? "badge whore" :)) for VAG

A8 3.0T 4376 lbs. [1984 kg]
http://models.audiusa.com/a8/detaile...ons?engine=101

740i 4310 lbs http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

750iL 4660 lbs vs A8 L 4.0T 4597 lbs [2085 kg]

I am not sure Vag is an appropriate term for Internet forum.

Leave AutoUnion alone. Nothing wrong with liking VWs. I rent them from time to time.

bm323 10-04-2012 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot (Post 7112663)
I am not sure Vag is an appropriate term for Internet forum.

Leave AutoUnion alone. Nothing wrong with liking VWs. I rent them from time to time.

Yes nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with liking BMWs either; but I don't go to Audi forums and continue posting for eons degrading Audi :) In fact not one post from me in any Audi forum as such.

Do you go to any Audi forum and bash Audi, whether with true or false points?

Stealth.Pilot 10-04-2012 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bm323 (Post 7112668)
Yes nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with liking BMWs either; but I don't go to Audi forums and continue posting for eons degrading Audi :) In fact not one post from me in any Audi forum as such.

Do you go to any Audi forum and bash Audi, whether with true or false points?

Why would I do that? It's not their fault they can't afford a BMW.

Autounion is here cos he drives a BMW too.

bm323 10-04-2012 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot (Post 7112674)
Why would I do that? It's not their fault they can't afford a BMW.

Autounion is here cos he drives a BMW too.

yes, he claims he drives one; spends tons of time in the various subforums bashing BMW ... esp the F10 which he doesn't own ;)

a simple click on his posts ...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...62&postcount=9

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=35

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...&postcount=278

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...t=#post6928289

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...t=#post6939872

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...t=#post6926775

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...t=#post6925428

Donm 10-04-2012 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot (Post 7112576)
Back on topic, I would like to see a supercharged or triple charged (one supercharger, two turbos) BMW V8 with D4S.

Several years ago at a BMW rally for the F800 bikes in Fontana NC there was also a Crossfire rally. On car there was fitted with a MB big V8 with a supercharger conventionally mounted and a turbo mounted back near the muffler to pre charge the supercharger. As you might imagine he didn't quite have the fuel system programming polished up but what an undertaking!:yikes:

One of the attractions to the Fontana area is Deals Gap, aka, the Dragon, a well know biker and driver's road. To my chagrin, the autos were the real daredevils through the Dragon.

SP, how would you imagine the triple charger lay out?

Regards,

The X Men 10-04-2012 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bm323 (Post 7112704)
yes, he claims he drives one; spends tons of time in the various subforums bashing BMW ... esp the F10 which he doesn't own ;)

AutoUnion has as much right to be on this forum as you do. He presents a counter point, which make things interesting around here. If every post in here is about how great BMW is, imagine how boring this forum would be, it will be like a giant group hug around here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with comparing BMW to the competition, if it wasnt for Audi and MB's stiff competition, BMW would not be where they are today.

Needsdecaf 10-04-2012 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot (Post 7112571)
Your sources are comparing different countries which have different measurement standards.

Comparing the US website data of BMW and Audi, the SWB A8 weighs 4531lbs and SWB 750i weighs 4575 lbs. which is about the same and in my opinion puts the Audi to shame.

However the Jaguar XJ SWB V8 (no longer available in 2013) weighs 4035lbs which is a substantial weight savings.

So AutoUnion is right about the part of the Jag, but not right about the Audi (I wouldn't call 44 lbs a significant weight saving).

Jaguar has much more sophisticated technology in use of aluminum than Audi and from what I hear the XJ is more rigid too. In my drives I was extremely impressed with the XJ Supersport. If they had BMW electronics, I may have bought one instead of my 550i.

Considering the Audi is packing 150 to 200 pounds of AWD hardware that's not too bad.

AutoUnion 10-04-2012 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bm323 (Post 7112644)
Issue is with Audi, not Jaguar - AutoUnion is a "fellow troll" ( and what term did he use? "badge whore" :)) for VAG

A8 3.0T 4376 lbs. [1984 kg]
http://models.audiusa.com/a8/detaile...ons?engine=101

740i 4310 lbs http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

750iL 4660 lbs vs A8 L 4.0T 4597 lbs [2085 kg]


http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

http://imageshack.us/a/img528/5074/s...21004at920.png

Look at the curb weight difference. Almost 300 lbs. Unlike you, I do use facts to backup my arguments.

bm323 10-04-2012 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The X Men (Post 7112854)
AutoUnion has as much right to be on this forum as you do. He presents a counter point, which make things interesting around here. If every post in here is about how great BMW is, imagine how boring this forum would be, it will be like a giant group hug around here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with comparing BMW to the competition, if it wasnt for Audi and MB's stiff competition, BMW would not be where they are today.

Sure; did I say he has no right to?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...t=#post7100931 the point is not that one should be thrashing the competition; the point is that he persistently thrashes BMW for how own motives. And if you had read, I have mentioned a few times the F10 has a serious weakness.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=11 this was asking his basis

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=15 I would assume that I have a right to question his basis; he can jolly well disregard, as he has done before :)

bm323 10-04-2012 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoUnion (Post 7112888)
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

Look at the curb weight difference. Almost 300 lbs. Unlike you, I do use facts to backup my arguments.

I assume you disregarded the official US BMW and Audi websites for your own motives; and you know for a fact that the 3 cars tested had the same options incl seats :)

Needsdecaf 10-04-2012 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bm323 (Post 7112951)
I assume you disregarded the official US BMW and Audi websites for your own motives; and you know for a fact that the 3 cars tested had the same options incl seats :)

I have no dog in this fight, but I have long since learned to distrust "official" weights by a significant margin. The face that the two cars were tested to the same spec (passengers, fluids, etc.) on the same set of scales on the same day means much more to me.


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