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-   -   Opening Puma Cases for Dirty Valves (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649708)

jwhallman 10-03-2012 04:10 PM

Opening Puma Cases for Dirty Valves
 
I just got back from the dealer today: my 2007 335i with 60K miles had been missing at wide open throttle, which I can see from this forum is practically guaranteed due to a rather poorly engineered direct injection design for the N54.

The car is a CPO so I still have about 10 months of CPO contract left. The dealer takes the car with the check engine light on and replaces all six injectors. I did not have the preferred "261" model number installed as my car was built in April of 2007. This was all done under warranty. Now that part is outstanding but what was not so good was that I hit the freeway and the car starts missing again.

So I drop it off again and they tell me it has really dirty valves. And they tell me this is a fuel issue: eff you it is a fuel issue. Those valves never see fuel, the car is direct injected. But they tell me that, ordinarily, this will not be covered because of that. Are you kidding me? are you going to sell me a car that becomes undriveable with the check engine light blaring and tell me to eat the cost of the repair? I cannot believe that BMW thinks they can get away with this BS: ultimately, it is a mechanical issue because the car becomes undriveable. I have never used anything but premium fuel in that car. And besides, fuel doesn't wash the intake valves in a direct-injection vehicle. But the service advisor tells me I needed to buy their injector cleaner service more often. I got suckered into that $229 once but the car didn't idle as smoothly afterwards. And even if I had bought it more often, that doesn't have anything to do with scrubbing the valves.

I believe a class acttion lawsuit should be started for all the poor souls out there who are paying to get their valves cleaned. Those valves are dirty because of lousy engineering.

By the way: you better think twice about buying a 2007 335i off warranty: my CPO has paid off with whole new turbos and all new injectors. Think about getting hit with that charge in addition to your car payments. I asked the service provider what the new turbos would have cost me off warranty: he tells me 6K! and that the injectors would have been another 3.5K.

jwhallman 10-03-2012 06:30 PM

My point is that BMW sells cars with this story about free maintenance and then CPO it to 100K and also sell me the extended maintenance (I got suckered into at the time for $2.5K...) but then tell me valves that look like Satan's Butthole are my problem, well that is BS.

Those valves look like Satan's rear end because of a mechanical flaw: it is not fuel related. And their warranty is supposed to cover the drivetrain: what can be more drivetrain than an engine missing and missing and missing?

The 2.5K for the extended maintenance is getting me two oil changes, a micofilter, and rear brake pads. Even a dealer has to blush about such a ripoff. What kills me about the brake job is that they claimed the rotors were good. Show me one brake job in the history of the universe off-warranty at the dealer in which they tell you your rotors are fine.

Any CPO car that is missing because of dirty valves should automatically be covered under warranty: it is a mechanical issue that resulted from poor design. A class action to get BMW to reimburse any uncovered valve cleaning should be filed immediately for all CPO owners.

David1 10-04-2012 07:30 AM

It is not a mechanical flaw. Carboned up valves are the norm for DI motors no mater the manufacturer. I would like to know how your dealer knows what Satan's butthole looks like. Maybe another dealer would know what Peter Pan's butthole looks like.

jwhallman 10-04-2012 07:54 AM

I hate to burst your BMW bubble but it is indeed a mechanical flaw. Google for the edmunds article about carbon in DI engines. The problem is virtually non-existent in certain General Motors DI engines due to proper design. That BMW has been out engineered by GM is very telling Plus Bmw touts their free maintenance as being so finely tuned to the vehicle while it is practically guaranteed that following that maintenance plan gives you a missing engine with hard to diagnose mechanical issues. My dealer took two tries to figure it out. And then for BMW to not own up to this problem under warranty is BS.

David1 10-04-2012 08:12 AM

That is an old article on a motor that is not used anymore. That design of valve overlap can no longer be used due to tightend emissions regs There newer motors have carbon issues. The DI motors that don't are the ones that also have port injection. Also, BMW knows about it and has specific tools to clean it. You just have a poor dealer. All good BMW techs know about it especially on the older V12 7 series cars from back in the day. If you had an audi, you would be doing carbon cleaning once a year!

jwhallman 10-04-2012 08:26 AM

Even if one Believes that all DI engines suffer from carbon (they don't) it is BMW who touts their 100% free maintenance. Look at the TV ads that proclaim even your wipers are covered free of charge. But that is a big fat lie because their lousy engineering means your valves should be cleaned by 50k miles.

btw: Peter pan's butthole? WTF :)

HPIA4v2 10-04-2012 08:42 AM

No offense but if dealer replaced all 6-injectors you are ahead of the game compare to most of us, just ask the dealer to walnut blast the intake valves at cost (retail used to be around $800). You gain all 300HP back on your car and will feel the difference and if tuned you'll see no misfire at OT guarantee.

During recall campaing of HPPFP, dealer only replaced 3-out of 6 injectors on my 535i.

But in life there is always principle to stands for, if you feel like to fight it.

jburke4689 10-04-2012 09:17 AM

$3.5k for a set of injectors?! A complete set of injectors at the dealer is $750. Labor is about 4 hours including initial adaptions. That translates to about $1,250 total in my market. You need to seriously reconsider the dealer you use for service.

CALWATERBOY 10-04-2012 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David1 (Post 7112906)
It is not a mechanical flaw. Carboned up valves are the norm for DI motors no mater the manufacturer. I would like to know how your dealer knows what Satan's butthole looks like. Maybe another dealer would know what Peter Pan's butthole looks like.


Hold it right there son! I'm from San Francisco, and that sort o'talk's taken seriously, meaning something completely different here.

Please, move it to the Leather forum.

CALWATERBOY 10-04-2012 09:48 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by jwhallman (Post 7113018)
Even if one Believes that all DI engines suffer from carbon (they don't) it is BMW who touts their 100% free maintenance. Look at the TV ads that proclaim even your wipers are covered free of charge. But that is a big fat lie because their lousy engineering means your valves should be cleaned by 50k miles.


No they don't. Anecdotally related to PCV valve blow-by [crankcase oil] without fuel to wash it off the valves, coking is usually related to high rpm operation. Meth injection having little or no effect re: coking. The final, totally effective solution is to route PCV valve exhaust to atmosphere.

But -- tut tut tut! -- that's an emissions violation carrying somewhat of a penalty.

A quick SEARCH will reveal details of BMW's cyclonic separation, catch-can solutions, and many pics of coked valves. Will also route you to solutions such as this DIY - click on the PDF in Post #1. Dealers generally charge $600 for the walnut shell treatment - BMW's developed tools specifically for the task; I've ordered them in anticipation of the issue. Yup, I like the certainty of a good DIY.

There's been mention of a cure involving fuel and valve timing, and there are theories about fuel dilution and lubricant volatility, but the little I've read offers no tech specs. GM reputed to have have an effective solution.

Call me nuts, but a condensing catch-can would seem to be an excellent thing.

How 'boutcha, 60k+ mi N54 pilots.....have you had the problem?

Attachment 344313
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CALWATERBOY 10-04-2012 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwhallman (Post 7112946)
I hate to burst your BMW bubble but it is indeed a mechanical flaw..

Bedtime reading....check the clickable ref's

CALWATERBOY 10-04-2012 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwhallman (Post 7111787)
The car is a CPO so I still have about 10 months of CPO contract left. The dealer takes the car with the check engine light on and replaces all six injectors. I did not have the preferred "261" model number installed as my car was built in April of 2007. This was all done under warranty. Now that part is outstanding but what was not so good was that I hit the freeway and the car starts missing again.

So I drop it off again and they tell me it has really dirty valves. And they tell me this is a fuel issue: eff you it is a fuel issue.

I believe a class acttion lawsuit should be started for all the poor souls out there who are paying to get their valves cleaned. Those valves are dirty because of lousy engineering.


They're prob right about a fuel issue....ethanol and volatility of crankcase lube components; PCV.

But....that doesn't excuse BMW Engineering from addressing the issue in the design phase. USA being their largest market, they did not do due diligence re: HPFP, and valve coking issues.

HPFP was an drop dead simple fix well known to engineers for over 60 years. Took BMW 4 years and a Federal threat to make the software change and repair damaged parts....expect the same for this, coming to a head as many engines will reach 60k mi from about now, forward.

Recommend you start the ball rolling! You and others can [should] complain to NHTSA about the safety aspect - missing engine/loss of power at a critical moment - which is all they will be concerned about. It is from NHTSA that many recalls originate. The point here is to document, document, document instances of the problem to build a database.

Even if NHTSA takes no action, the volume of cases will be an attorney's wet dream. You get the point. GOOD LUCK TO YA!

Zooks527 10-04-2012 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY (Post 7113209)
How 'boutcha, 60k+ mi N54 pilots.....have you had the problem?

Well, I'm inhaling before spitting in the face of God, but, at 82k, I don't appear to.

vrmoreno3 10-04-2012 11:40 AM

Curious, does anyone use the gas additive for valve cleaning? Or is that a no-no.

CALWATERBOY 10-04-2012 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vrmoreno3 (Post 7113487)
Curious, does anyone use the gas additive for valve cleaning? Or is that a no-no.

Ineffective - fuel does not contact valves where they coke, N54/55/20.

Orient330iNYC 10-04-2012 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vrmoreno3 (Post 7113487)
Curious, does anyone use the gas additive for valve cleaning? Or is that a no-no.

it will only clean the injector.

the issue with a direct injection engine, the injector is in the cylinder. gas additives worked on manifold injected cars as the fuel would wash over the intake valves on its way into the cylinder.

with a direct injection engine, the fuel is injected directly into the cylinder, so the fuel (and cleaning additives) never touch the back of the intake valves.

fun2drive 10-04-2012 07:01 PM

54K miles mine is a 3/2007 and ZERO issues.
I do however know that this is a DI engine and will coke the valves eventually. However there is a better PVC valve that is sold
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=190
which is reported to not allow oil fumes to bleed through vs a catch can.
So I will do a DIY and do the valves and new PVC when needed and most likely not have much of an issue.
When you run the holey crap out of this engine then back off you put oil fumes into the engine which can bleed through and end up carboning the intake valves.
I have read some about an added injector for the purpose of keeping the intake valves clean.
GM does not have intake valve issues because they have a solution.
However Audi, VW and others to include BMW do have this issue.

I will keep my BMW most likely 12 years or so and have no issue with this car being 1 1/2 years out of warranty...

galahad05 10-04-2012 09:27 PM

This is frankly fascinating.
I've toyed with the idea of a catch can, but have heard conflicting reports about their true worthiness in combating oil vapor deposits into the intake system.
Now I'm hearing about the sub-par stock PCV valve (leaks under boost) and the replacement....

Not to mention the outstanding pdf how-to done on the intake valve cleaning.

This makes me want to open the engine back up again and look at the valves.

Any opinions on here about the BMW oem pcv valve?

CALWATERBOY 10-04-2012 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fun2drive (Post 7114370)
.... there is a better PVC valve that is sold
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=190
which is reported to not allow oil fumes to bleed through vs a catch can.


>AHEM<

A cautionary tale: overclocked motivation.

Fumes would be diff to stop if not condensed; liquid phase no prob. But if pressure and/or oil added downstream o'PCV valve, bets off.

Didn't see PCV2 valve on RB Turbos' web site - emailed Rob....


.

jwhallman 10-04-2012 10:56 PM

Maybe the dealer wants me to feel less robbed about the 2.5k extended maintenance that got me two oil changes and some brake pads by telling me the injectors were 3.5k but that is what I was told when they were replaced under warranty. In any case I did get the walnut shell cleaning comped under puma but the fact that I was being told that it was because I didn't buy the fuel injector cleaning often enough pisses me off. I love my 335i but it has required all new injectors, turbos, plus this walnut job. They also replaced the plugs with the walnut blasting. And the sleeve on the tranny had to be replaced. BMW took a hit on their warranty on this one.

I shouldn't have bought a loaner as my CPO.

jwhallman 10-04-2012 11:06 PM

N54 pilots? The only thing I can find under that term are Michelin tires

CALWATERBOY 10-04-2012 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwhallman (Post 7114779)
Maybe the dealer wants me to feel less robbed about the 2.5k extended maintenance that got me two oil changes and some brake pads by telling me the injectors were 3.5k but that is what I was told when they were replaced under warranty. In any case I did get the walnut shell cleaning comped under puma but the fact that I was being told that it was because I didn't buy the fuel injector cleaning often enough pisses me off. I love my 335i but it has required all new injectors, turbos, plus this walnut job. They also replaced the plugs with the walnut blasting. And the sleeve on the tranny had to be replaced. BMW took a hit on their warranty on this one.


Would PO this ol' boy too -- I'm callin' this dealer out: Show us all above work was required!

Bet is wasn't - bet there were a few shots in the dark....a few....

jwhallman 10-05-2012 10:36 PM

The turbos were replaced about a year ago. The dealer had the car for more than a week that time to get the necessary approvals. So that repair was unrelated to the missing on wide open throttle issue. I paid the dealer (Crevier) for the extended maintenance so from my point of view the dirty valves happened on their watch, not mine. So when I was told it was a fuel issue and that it is not covered under warranty I started arguing. Finally the service advisor tells me that BMW would cover the walnut shells but that I had to kick in 300 for the plugs because they were "collateral damage." what a crock of bull****. It ended up to be 50 bucks (the extended maintenance deductible)

jwhallman 10-05-2012 10:46 PM

I told the dealer they better not put the old injectors back in when it became apparent they had botched the dirty valve diagnosis such that the real problem was not the injectors. The service advisor tells me he doesnt think they would do that. WTF? So it is a possibility they might? I half feel like pulling off the intake manifold to make sure the new injectors are still on. Supposedly you can read the part numbers on them while they are still installed

anE934fun 10-06-2012 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orient330iNYC (Post 7113546)
it will only clean the injector.

the issue with a direct injection engine, the injector is in the cylinder. gas additives worked on manifold injected cars as the fuel would wash over the intake valves on its way into the cylinder.

with a direct injection engine, the fuel is injected directly into the cylinder, so the fuel (and cleaning additives) never touch the back of the intake valves.

I have been wondering about this for a while. BMW goes to great lengths to encourage the use of high detergent gasoline. As you post, with D.I. engines, there seems to be little benefit to be gained from using high detergent gasoline (no valve cleaning). Once the gas is burned, the exhaust is no different than what is produced using the non- high detergent gas. Am I missing something?


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