Bimmerfest - BMW Forums

Bimmerfest - BMW Forums (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/index.php)
-   F10 / F11 (2011 - Current) (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=141)
-   -   Diesel F10 coming to US...in 2013! (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=656424)

Needsdecaf 11-06-2012 05:22 AM

Diesel F10 coming to US...in 2013!
 
Diesel F10 coming to the US in 2013, as well as a host of other diesel models.

F30 3 Series sedan diesel - first half 2013
F31 3 Series touring - second half 2013
F10 5 Series diesel - third quarter 2013
X5d diesel - end of 2013
7 Series diesel - first half 2014
X3d diesel - first half 2014

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=670025

According to a friend of mine, he was told by a BMWNA staffer that the X3d will be coming sooner, and will have the 4 pot diesel, not the 6.

miamiboyca 11-06-2012 06:07 AM

Any idea which of the Diesel engines will come for the F10?

Emilner 11-06-2012 06:08 AM

Doesn't the X5 come in diesel?

d geek 11-06-2012 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miamiboyca (Post 7178422)
Any idea which of the Diesel engines will come for the F10?

From what I've seen it will be the 530d (single turbo 3L)

AutoUnion 11-06-2012 08:24 AM

Yup, this was leaked a couple weeks ago. Shame it's so far out. Looks like BMW is waiting for the LCI to bring the diesel, which will probably be the 6 cylinder

miamiboyca 11-06-2012 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoUnion (Post 7178726)
Yup, this was leaked a couple weeks ago. Shame it's so far out. Looks like BMW is waiting for the LCI to bring the diesel, which will probably be the 6 cylinder

Hopefully the tri-turbo will come over too!

Mark K 11-06-2012 08:40 AM

Not to rain on this parade (actually, I'm very excited about this - but for very different reasons), here's my wife's text message from this morning after she dropped our E92 for service: "Asked for a 1er and got an X1. God I hate automatic!"

'Nuff said.

Yes, I DO know I'm an extremely lucky man and I keep that in mind every day, believe me.

d geek 11-06-2012 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miamiboyca (Post 7178733)
Hopefully the tri-turbo will come over too!

Extremely unlikely due to the lack of demand for high-performance ($$$) diesels over here. They can't justify the EPA certification costs.

Decboy 11-06-2012 09:02 AM

Maybe someone here can educate me on diesel engines. Most auto makers now offer a diesel version to their model line. I see diesel fuel with the same price as 91 here in SoCal. I know diesel offers better mileage but at what expense? There's a shift back to diesel these recent years. I know back in the day, diesel fuel was not as clean as regular premium but what has changed today?

d geek 11-06-2012 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decboy (Post 7178857)
Maybe someone here can educate me on diesel engines. Most auto makers now offer a diesel version to their model line. I see diesel fuel with the same price as 91 here in SoCal. I know diesel offers better mileage but at what expense? I know back in the day, diesel fuel was not as clean as regular premium but what has changed today?

Mainly the big change is using diesel particulate filters (DPF) to greatly reduce the soot. High pressure injection systems and advanced injectors also allow a much more controlled injection sequence which improves both power and emissions.

cheezypoof 11-06-2012 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decboy (Post 7178857)
Maybe someone here can educate me on diesel engines. Most auto makers now offer a diesel version to their model line. I see diesel fuel with the same price as 91 here in SoCal. I know diesel offers better mileage but at what expense? There's a shift back to diesel these recent years. I know back in the day, diesel fuel was not as clean as regular premium but what has changed today?

Along with what was said above, newer passenger car Diesels also have urea-based de-NOx catalysts which, combined with the DPF, are needed to meet current US emissions legislation.

This chemical processing plant hanging off the back of the engine, along with high pressure injectors, turbos etc. all add to cost = Diesels are much more expensive to build than gasoline engines, and this cost is typically passed on to the customer. So you have to spend more to get into a Diesel vehicle.

Fuel efficiency is 20% or so better, but where I live Diesel fuel is at the best of times the same price as premium gasoline, but more often it's 10 to 20 cents more than premium. Unfortunately this pretty much wipes out any financial benefit of improved fuel economy. If Diesel fuel was in higher demand, and/or enjoyed tax breaks like it does in Europe, then the cost-to-own benefits would be a lot better for US buyers.

Note, I'm not anti-Diesel by any means, we have a new Touareg TDI which we love, but don't buy a Diesel thinking it's going to save you a bunch of $ because it's not. The sticker EPA rating may look good, but the total picture is about equal to a modern high efficiency gasoline engine.

miamiboyca 11-06-2012 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decboy (Post 7178857)
Maybe someone here can educate me on diesel engines. Most auto makers now offer a diesel version to their model line. I see diesel fuel with the same price as 91 here in SoCal. I know diesel offers better mileage but at what expense? There's a shift back to diesel these recent years. I know back in the day, diesel fuel was not as clean as regular premium but what has changed today?

The CO2 emissions of the new diesel engines is very low and hey do get better mileage than gasoline engines, but I had the same questions. I asked a friend from South Africa about it and he explained to me that in addition to the fuel savings, these engines are INCREDIBLY durable. As he said to me " you can beat the ^$%$ out of them" and you will be tired first. They also provide a huge amount of torque and towing capacity.

Take a look at this top gear review of the 535d, would love to get my hands one of these....

http://www.topgear.com/uk/bmw/5-series/road-test/535d


The 3.0-litre twin-turbo straight six, comprehensively re-engineered for the sixth-gen 5-Series, now produces 295bhp and a walloping 442lb ft of torque, good for a 0-62mph time of 5.7 seconds - only a second behind BMW's own M5 - but economy of 45mpg and CO2 emissions of just 162g/km

miamiboyca 11-06-2012 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheezypoof (Post 7178926)
Along with what was said above, newer passenger car Diesels also have urea-based de-NOx catalysts which, combined with the DPF, are needed to meet current US emissions legislation.

This chemical processing plant hanging off the back of the engine, along with high pressure injectors, turbos etc. all add to cost = Diesels are much more expensive to build than gasoline engines, and this cost is typically passed on to the customer. So you have to spend more to get into a Diesel vehicle.

Fuel efficiency is 20% or so better, but where I live Diesel fuel is at the best of times the same price as premium gasoline, but more often it's 10 to 20 cents more than premium. Unfortunately this pretty much wipes out any financial benefit of improved fuel economy. If Diesel fuel was in higher demand, and/or enjoyed tax breaks like it does in Europe, then the cost-to-own benefits would be a lot better for US buyers.

Note, I'm not anti-Diesel by any means, we have a new Touareg TDI which we love, but don't buy a Diesel thinking it's going to save you a bunch of $ because it's not. The sticker EPA rating may look good, but the total picture is about equal to a modern high efficiency gasoline engine.

Fuel efficiency gains are much more than 20% in modern diesels.

cheezypoof 11-06-2012 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miamiboyca (Post 7178976)
Fuel efficiency gains are much more than 20% in modern diesels.

Disagree. Just look at the VW lineup and the Diesels get you 20%, maybe 25%. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an example that delivers "much more" than 20% gain.

Your statement used to be true, but that chemistry plant comes with penalties - you have to use more fuel (post-injection) to burn accumulated particulates.

miamiboyca 11-06-2012 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheezypoof (Post 7179010)
Disagree. Just look at the VW lineup and the Diesels get you 20%, maybe 25%. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an example that delivers "much more" than 20% gain.

Your statement used to be true, but that chemistry plant comes with penalties - you have to use more fuel (post-injection) to burn accumulated particulates.

Look at the previous post - fuel economy of 45, in mixed driving compared to the 535i of about 25-27.

yogi799 11-06-2012 10:32 AM

You all must factor in that a typical diesel always costs more that it's gasoline equivalent, so it'll be 2-5 years before you see any savings to begin with.

This is the main dilemma a lot of folks in EU face. Right off the bat you get slammed with a higher sticker price and it only makes sense if you a) buy used and negotiate the price OR b) plan on keeping the car 10-15 years OR c) you drive A LOT (like hundreds of miles a day).

X5 diesel, for example, costs $2500 more than 35i, here in Canada. That gets you 1800 litres of gas (about 500 gallons). Think how many years you'd need to drive to use that much more gas.

So it's an investment more than anything else.

NoI4plz 11-06-2012 10:36 AM

Great news for future diesel buyers. However if your buying a diesel caz u think they'll be reliable like the old mercs is plain dumb. The
Amount of tech involved to keep these motors working is ridiculous. The motors structural build might be great, but without all the modules, you literally have the equivalent to a pile of crap under the hood.

In addition the fuel economy is great, however your not gonna beat a Prius or likewise. BMW knows this and advertises as such, this a performance diesel with the added benefit of some efficiency. The fuel costs are actually higher with d, so the 5mpgs extra u get goes toward paying the extra 10-15 cents per gallon.

There are also problems that some owners will face, due to their environment (availability of ideal gas stations). So it all adds up.

Mark K 11-06-2012 11:44 AM

Diesel advantages:

- everything when compared with COMPARABLE gasoline engine. Comparable gasoline engine will be the one that can do the same amount of work as diesel.

Diesel disadvantages:

- you can't rev it high which makes it much less suitable for enthusiastic driving with MT than a high-revving gasoline counterpart. Things would much improve with DCT, but then it is racing, not enthusiastic driving - just ask Audi. That's about it.



I can't believe the paradox that exists with diesel engine and usage in EU/US. Europeans, generally speaking, have NO business driving diesel cars, they should be driving hybrids. They drive very light cars mostly in stop-and-go traffic or heavy traffic anyway. When they don't drive in stop-and-go traffic, they (unlike the Americans) do know the purpose of the "go" pedal and are not afraid to use it, thus high-revving engines are a good choice. Yet, in some EU countries, more than 70% of new cars sold are diesel while hybrid is viewed just as a curious automotive appendix and evolution hiccup.

Americans, generally speaking, have NO business driving gasoline only/hybrid vehicles, we should be driving mostly diesels. Americans drive heavy vehicles without any understanding of the concept of acceleration or what the "go" pedal is there for. Most of the engine work is done at ridiculously low rpms. Most of the miles are not in stop-and-go traffic and distances traveled are in any case bigger than what Europeans do. Yet ... well, you know the rest of the story.

swajames 11-06-2012 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miamiboyca (Post 7179048)
Look at the previous post - fuel economy of 45, in mixed driving compared to the 535i of about 25-27.


Don't forget that the Top Gear MPG numbers are based on the British gallon which is around 20% bigger than the US gallon so we're not going to see quite the same numbers over here.

dunderhi 11-06-2012 02:11 PM

The cost difference between diesel and premium gas tends to be regional and seasonal. At my local filling stations, diesel tends to be a cheaper on average. Yesterday, it was only a penny cheaper, but from late last Spring up to last month it was about 10-20 cents cheaper per gallon. I check every time I fill up my 550. :(

As far as RPMs are concerned, efficient turbo gassers have redlines that are only about 1,000rpms higher than their diesel counterparts.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the true advantage of diesel which is torque! It is like someone put a low rpm turbo on a turbo motor. In everyday traffic conditions, a diesel motor will feel faster than a comparable gasser since the torque is always present and there's no need to get the rpms into "band".

Finally, I conducted a cost analysis of the 335i vs 335d when I bought my 335d. Does anyone want to guess how long it took to recoup the 335d's higher sticker cost? Don't bother, since the answer was zero days, and zero months, zero years. Out the door the 335d was cheaper due to incentives and tax breaks. Now add cheaper fuel and better mileage and the deal gets even better. If Mrs D gets less than 34-35mpgs on a tank of fuel, it's considered a bad tank. :thumbup:

Needsdecaf 11-06-2012 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunderhi (Post 7179583)
The cost difference between diesel and premium gas tends to be regional and seasonal. At my local filling stations, diesel tends to be a cheaper on average. Yesterday, it was only a penny cheaper, but from late last Spring up to last month it was about 10-20 cents cheaper per gallon. I check every time I fill up my 550. :(

As far as RPMs are concerned, efficient turbo gassers have redlines that are only about 1,000rpms higher than their diesel counterparts.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the true advantage of diesel which is torque! It is like someone put a low rpm turbo on a turbo motor. In everyday traffic conditions, a diesel motor will feel faster than a comparable gasser since the torque is always present and there's no need to get the rpms into "band".

Finally, I conducted a cost analysis of the 335i vs 335d when I bought my 335d. Does anyone want to guess how long it took to recoup the 335d's higher sticker cost? Don't bother, since the answer was zero days, and zero months, zero years. Out the door the 335d was cheaper due to incentives and tax breaks. Now add cheaper fuel and better mileage and the deal gets even better. If Mrs D gets less than 34-35mpgs on a tank of fuel, it's considered a bad tank. :thumbup:

This is exactly true.

Think of it this way. The diesel gain shouldn't be compared to the equivalent engine of the same size and cylinder count. It should be compared to the next size up. "For the price of X you can have Y".

The way I look at it is this: for an F10, I can get the same mileage as a 528 with the torque (almost) of a 550. Or at least 160 ft-lbs more than a 528. So I think of it as a relative bargain when you compare total cost of ownership to a 550 (entry price plus cost of fuel).

Similarly, for an X5, the 35d engine is my engine of choice. Again, you get 120 more ft-lbs than an X5 35i, and within 30 ft-lbs of the X5 50i. It's $7,500 less, and your fuel economy goes from 14/20 to 19/26. Is the 0-60 performance the same? No. Is the in gear performance the same? No, but it's a lot closer than you'd think.

cheezypoof 11-06-2012 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swajames (Post 7179262)
Don't forget that the Top Gear MPG numbers are based on the British gallon which is around 20% bigger than the US gallon so we're not going to see quite the same numbers over here.

A bigger gallon certainly helps.

We will see more Diesels because they help OEMs achieve 2016 CAFE standards. But just like hybrids, this comes at a cost to the consumer. I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed when they realize they have a looong way to go before breaking even on $2k to $3k premium they paid for the motor.

Diesels earned market share in Europe because their governments were primarily interested in legislating fuel consumption, aka CO2; they effectively subsidized Diesel operating costs, but had to sacrifice NOx and particulate standards. To meet US standards requires more costly aftertreatment devices, which also penalize Diesel efficiency.

The notion that Diesels will last forever does not apply. As another poster mentioned, all the high tech stuff they have to hang on a modern Diesel to make it perform (and do so cleanly) is just more stuff that can break.

Finally, performance (torque) - no doubt the new Diesels are a blast off the line, and you can get huge torque #s from smaller displacement thanks to the higher compression ratio. To me the biggest downside of Diesels when it comes to driving enjoyment is the lack of audio soundtrack, they just don't sound fun.

yogi799 11-06-2012 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunderhi (Post 7179583)

Finally, I conducted a cost analysis of the 335i vs 335d when I bought my 335d. Does anyone want to guess how long it took to recoup the 335d's higher sticker cost? Don't bother, since the answer was zero days, and zero months, zero years. Out the door the 335d was cheaper due to incentives and tax breaks. Now add cheaper fuel and better mileage and the deal gets even better. If Mrs D gets less than 34-35mpgs on a tank of fuel, it's considered a bad tank. :thumbup:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf (Post 7179603)
This is exactly true.

Think of it this way. The diesel gain shouldn't be compared to the equivalent engine of the same size and cylinder count. It should be compared to the next size up. "For the price of X you can have Y".


I wouldn't quite agree with any of that. Ie. a diesel engine must be considerably larger to produce the same power. Ie. a 335d would be an equivalent of 328i, not 335i. 335i is over a second faster in a 0-60 dash and this is typically how we've come to compare car's power and performance (we don't usually compare torque in small cars as that's more applicable to other applications such as towing). A 335d would therefore be quite a bit more expensive than a 328i.

Diesel engine needs larger displacement to produce similar power. Likewise, a 4-cycle engine needs to be larger than a 2-cycle for comparable power.

This is most easily verified by studying performance numbers.

I do agree with Dunderhi, however, that in a typical city driving diesel will sure enough "feel" quicker, as RPM is typically low. Not so much on an autobahn though (or some faster interstates). There, torque loses its glamour and anything above 60mph is all about true power (where 335d would compete with 328i, not 335i). 335i leaves the diesel in the dust.

Mark K 11-06-2012 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunderhi (Post 7179583)

As far as RPMs are concerned, efficient turbo gassers have redlines that are only about 1,000rpms higher than their diesel counterparts.

Very true. Nonetheless, the "joy" of revving N55 for a downshift is quite different than revving a diesel engine. Trust me, I do rev-matched downshift in both of my cars. OK, my diesel is not M57, but the basics are still the same. As I said, it has nothing to do with real world numbers, it is just about "right feel". Even more important is that, besides that very subjective "feel", there is not a single reason to buy a gasoline car over a comparable diesel.

dunderhi 11-06-2012 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheezypoof (Post 7179630)
A bigger gallon certainly helps.

We will see more Diesels because they help OEMs achieve 2016 CAFE standards. But just like hybrids, this comes at a cost to the consumer. I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed when they realize they have a looong way to go before breaking even on $2k to $3k premium they paid for the motor.

As I learned personally, incentives and tax breaks can actually make diesels cheaper out the door.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheezypoof (Post 7179630)
Diesels earned market share in Europe because their governments were primarily interested in legislating fuel consumption, aka CO2; they effectively subsidized Diesel operating costs, but had to sacrifice NOx and particulate standards. To meet US standards requires more costly aftertreatment devices, which also penalize Diesel efficiency.

I haven't seen much of a penalty at all, unless of course you don't think my 37.5mpgs combined is low.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheezypoof (Post 7179630)
The notion that Diesels will last forever does not apply. As another poster mentioned, all the high tech stuff they have to hang on a modern Diesel to make it perform (and do so cleanly) is just more stuff that can break.

True, but the same arguments have been made about power windows and power brakes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheezypoof (Post 7179630)
Finally, performance (torque) - no doubt the new Diesels are a blast off the line, and you can get huge torque #s from smaller displacement thanks to the higher compression ratio. To me the biggest downside of Diesels when it comes to driving enjoyment is the lack of audio soundtrack, they just don't sound fun.

Stock vs stock - the audio sound track in my 335d sounds much better than my 550. I had to pay Dinan $3,500 to give my 550 a decent sound track.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:00 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms