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-   -   New CCV and NOW it decides to make noise??? (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=657537)

meb1970 11-11-2012 02:54 PM

New CCV and NOW it decides to make noise???
 
Need MAJOR help!!!!

Please see my previous posts.

Things already done to the car:
New plugs
New Air Filter
Changed the VC Gaskets
New Plugs again
new plug boots
new oil
new oil filter
new fuel filters
new ECU relay
new fuel pump relay
new A/C belt

Car was still idling rough and blowing white/blue smoke at start-up. Also, the plugs on either side were coated with oil before I changed the VC gasket.
Got slight "whirling" sound when weather was colder within the past week. Checked the CCV as described (removed oil filler cap and NO vacuum or pressure), no change in idle when oil fill cap removed, etc.

Changed the CCV yesterday (relatively easy). Car idles better after warm up, but I know it will blow smoke for a couple of days after sitting, right?
However, now I am getting a very load howl when at idle. I can put my hand on the new CCV and actually feel it. Also, the car puts out a plume of smoke on hard acceleration and NEVER did that before.

WORSE: I checked my oil this morning and went for a LONG ride (75-100 miles). I get a message from the computer telling me my oil is low. I check, and to my surprise, I have almost no oil????

Any thoughts? Anyone one from Southern New Jersey that can help?
Anyone from the PA, DE. MD, or NJ area want to buy this #$% car ???

robertobaggio20 11-11-2012 04:32 PM

DON'T PANIC.

Firstly, do not drive this car until you've topped up oil till the required mark.

Secondly, have you noticed any oil leaks anywhere ? On the ground ?

Thirdly, you gotta try the stop test to get specific error codes. Its easier for you to youtube this as there are many descriptive videos on that.

The care is NOT supposed to blow smoke after sitting for a couple of days. It might however blow steam, due to water condensation on the inside of your exhaust pipes. There is a huge difference in appearance between steam and smoke and the implications for your engine are accordingly different as well.

YOu might benefit from taking your car into a mechanic's workshop for a thorough check. You'll probably need an undercarriage inspection to trace sources of oil leaks and just see if there are any other problems. An online forum has great limitations simply because we are not infront of the car with you.

I assume that you've topped up oil ? You'll need to give many things a once over with your eyeball at least. The maintenance thread at the top of these forums is a good place to start.

Have extra bottles of oil and water in your trunk until you've sorted this problem out.

Please explain what lead you to make the changes that you've listed in your original post (op). Was there a problem you were having or suspected that you had ? Or was it purely preventive maintenance ?


rgds,
Roberto

meb1970 11-11-2012 07:48 PM

New CCV and NOW it decides to make noise???
 
Firstly, do not drive this car until you've topped up oil till the required mark.
Already done

Secondly, have you noticed any oil leaks anywhere ? On the ground ?
No. That is the weird thing. Even after I shut it off I smell no oil either

Thirdly, you gotta try the stop test to get specific error codes. Its easier for you to youtube this as there are many descriptive videos on that.
I was getting a 1215, 1212, 1221. Now all I get is a 1221 (Lambda)

The care is NOT supposed to blow smoke after sitting for a couple of days. It might however blow steam, due to water condensation on the inside of your exhaust pipes. There is a huge difference in appearance between steam and smoke and the implications for your engine are accordingly different as well.
I know this. The color is blue tinted, which indicates oil

YOu might benefit from taking your car into a mechanic's workshop for a thorough check. You'll probably need an undercarriage inspection to trace sources of oil leaks and just see if there are any other problems. An online forum has great limitations simply because we are not infront of the car with you.

I assume that you've topped up oil ? You'll need to give many things a once over with your eyeball at least. The maintenance thread at the top of these forums is a good place to start.

Have extra bottles of oil and water in your trunk until you've sorted this problem out.

Please explain what lead you to make the changes that you've listed in your original post (op). Was there a problem you were having or suspected that you had ? Or was it purely preventive maintenance ?
The car started idling rough late in the summer. It got a lot worse since the temperatures have dropped.

robertobaggio20 11-11-2012 08:35 PM

Hi Mate,

You're losing oil because its going out the tailpipe, not because of a leak. However, its a very good idea to doublecheck that.

Blue smoke is not good. Please see :

http://autoleak.com/Oil/Blue-Smoke-F....php?topic=Oil

I've got a quick solution for you. Go to a gas station and pick up one of those $7 oil treatment cans. This is NOT an engine flush, this is oil treatment. The can should say something like it will stop smoke from your tailpipe. Its usually half a quart or less. ( If you have many choices, use the STP oil treatment, comes in a can.)

This is essentially thicker engine oil than your car is used to. It will flow thickly. It will thicken the viscosity of the oil in your engine. This leads to less efficient running as the engine's internals need to do more work to move around, but the difference is usually not significant. However, the thicker oil creates better sealing in your piston rings, and may reduce or stop the smoke. Better sealing also means better compression, so your engine's performance may actually improve, and be sustained if the gains in compression outweigh the losses in internal friction.

If this works even partially, then henceforth, use slightly thicker oil in your engine than the manual's recommendation, to minimise the smoke problem. I once used this to stop an engine's mild smoking propensity.

You may also have a headgasket issue (can someone confirm this possibility based on the op's symptoms? Thanks.) If that's the case, you can always try a product such as steel seal, which is basically a HG in a bottle solution. These can seal small ruptures in HGs, although if yours is a HG issue it might not be all that small by now. Google and youtube for videos. They are not cheap - $95, but imo its worth trying. Whichever product you use, ONLY use those products which are coolant friendly. Those that are not, which require you to flush your existing coolant out first, are substantially cheaper but contain silicates which will react with coolant and sediment out and can clog up things like water pumps etc. Unless you're draining your engine block, its virtually impossible to flush out all of the old coolant during a normal radiator flush, so whatever is left behind will react with silicate products and cause problems.

The above are the 'quick and dirty' patches to this problem. If you want to be more hardcore about this, you'll need to do a compression test and a cylinder leakdown test (youtube for videos) to determine the state of your engine. Depending on what you find (the fest and google will help you interpret results) you can decide what your budget allows you to do.

I'd personally recommend that you do the compression test as the kit is cheap ($40 shipped off ebay) and it can be done with no special equipment or skills. The leakdown test is more of a second stage test, but it requires shop air and some skills in turning the engine to top dead centre on each cylinder. There's another test using the vacuum pressure gauge, which is the bastard cousin to the leakdown test, but its cheap ($30 shipped), helps you narrow down problems too and can be DIYed easily so that might be something you might want to look at. All of these gauges can be sold off on ebay at 30% of your buying price without difficulty, so its well worth the investment.

I've given you the whole range of all the possibilities, but it might be something very minor and livable, so don't jump to conclusions yet. Please be zen about it and keep us posted.

And download and read the bentley manual.


rgds,
Roberto

robertobaggio20 11-11-2012 08:37 PM

Rough idling could be a dirty idle control valve (icv, likely), a failing crankshaft position sensor (cps, unlikely) or a bad/dirty throttle position sensor (tps, also unlikely).

The cps's resistance should be tested when the engine is cold and when it is hot, to see if it is in range according to its specs. This requires a digital multimeter, which is cheap. The tps's switch can be unplugged and both the tps and the switch can be cleaned out and affixed back. The ICV might be a problem for you to remove due if it is located in an inaccessible place. Unfortunately that's the best bet for your idling issue.

The idling situation should have nothing to do with your blue smoke issues. The idle probably got worse because your icv got dirtier and not because the weather changed. Probably.



rgds,
Roberto

snowsled7 11-12-2012 04:56 AM

Or it could just be a worn out nikasil block. Start with the compression test.

Monsignor 11-12-2012 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meb1970 (Post 7188885)
Anyone from the PA, DE. MD, or NJ area want to buy this #$% car ???

Trade you my E28.

meb1970 11-12-2012 04:17 PM

Clarifications
 
I already cleaned the ICV about 2 weeks ago

The CPS tested good

I had 20/50 in on Saturday. Sunday morning it was about a quart low, so I added some
Barrs Stop Leak since it will supposedly help valve seals. I have NEVER been more than a quart low. After driving about 80 miles on Sunday, I received a "oil level low" message only to discover that all of a sudden I was low 4 quarts? No major leaks under the car either.

No one has addressed why after installing a new CCv (the one on back of the manifold)
why I am now blowing smoke on acceleration (which never happened before) or why the CCV is howling like crazy at idle (and it never did before). Or, why the sudden burning of oil.

It isn't a head gasket. The oil and antifreeze are both very clean and the car has never overheated.

I am taking it to European Performance in Wilmington, DE. tomorrow. They are going to do a leak down test to start with.

My guess: The new extra vacuum that the new CCV is producing has made the manifold gaskets bad or they were bad before and it just became more obvious. Any thoughts?

robertobaggio20 11-12-2012 05:07 PM

Maybe you installed the ccv wrongly. Although the car cant go so badly wrong that way....at most you would have weird idling or economy.

If this only happened after you installed it, then you must have screwed something up. Go through evrrything in your head slowly and doublecheck your work while at the engine.

I wonder....hmmmm.....if you are suddenly losing so much oil, did you somehow insert the ccv tube right into the oil in the oil pan? So its sucking up oil into the chamber and not just oil fumes?

Monsignor 11-12-2012 05:25 PM

Maybe there's a pinched line somewhere or some blockage or some sort of plastic stopper in the CCV that isn't collecting oil vapor and shooting it back through the intake. Put an oil catch can on it, they can be made from a plastic bottle and you will see how much oil is collecting. After I sprayed my Z I had oil consumption and I installed a catch can to help take the oil passage out of the manifold.

Maybe just take it out and reinstall it.

EDIT: Did you change the hoses also? It really sounds like you have a clogged or backed up hose somewhere.
Did you say that you put stop leak in it? That's raising suspicion.

My E28 offer still stands.

Josh429er 11-12-2012 08:34 PM

I don't think It's a head gasket, a compression test would show that also. But I agree with 95 E34, pull the ccv off and reinstall.

Monsignor 11-13-2012 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh429er (Post 7191462)
I don't think It's a head gasket, a compression test would show that also. But I agree with 95 E34, pull the ccv off and reinstall.

Correct. Almost certainly not a HG issue.

OP what you are describing is textbook clog or bad hose.
  • Did you replace hoses also?
  • Are hoses still good?
  • check them for blockage

meb1970 11-13-2012 06:37 PM

UPDATE.....New CCV and NOW it decides to make noise???
 
Took the E34 540 to European Performance in Wilmington, DE this morning.

Results from smoke test: Loose hose on CCV and i have a more significant leak at the throttle body than I thought.

John replaced the loose hose free of charge. The CCV is still howling like a b#%. I also have positive pressure when the oil fill cap is removed. Before I replaced it, I had no vacuum or pressure, but no howling/whirling sound either. The old one was bad as noticed with lake of oil in the manifold and the oil coated gasket.

Since they understand that I am not an idiot and can actually work on my own car, they suggested a new CCV and to replace the throttle body gasket. Not sure how the new CCV would have went bad so quickly. My thought is maybe the leak at the front at the throttle body just immediately caused it to fail since I was pulling in too much air from the outside?

He stated I should start with the obvious and that it would probably fix it. With a bad CCV and a bad throttle body gasket, I am not getting enough vacuum to evacuate the oil correctly.
He did not suspect that I needed anything major like valve seals or manifold gaskets.

Since he is also a personal friend of someone that I work with who has been taking his car to this shop for over 20 years, I have to appreciate his input and honesty.
Any other shop would have kept the car for several days and charged me a fortune!!!

Monsignor 11-13-2012 06:45 PM

Knew it was a hose!

Glad you got it fixed. I agree with the bad hose causing the CCV to fail so quickly. Hopefully you can send it back for a replacement citing the shop's conclusion and because it is probably still within warranty.

meb1970 11-13-2012 07:06 PM

New CCV and NOW it decides to make noise???
 
Not sure it is fixed just yet. I bought the new CCV and throttle body gasket when I was at the shop (genuine BMW too). I won't have a chance to install until Saturday.

The hose was just loose and smoke from the test was coming out. I used a small fuel line instead of a vacuum line apparently. Could that have actually cooked the CCV prematurely?

BMR_LVR 11-13-2012 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meb1970 (Post 7193419)
Not sure it is fixed just yet. I bought the new CCV and throttle body gasket when I was at the shop (genuine BMW too). I won't have a chance to install until Saturday.

The hose was just loose and smoke from the test was coming out. I used a small fuel line instead of a vacuum line apparently. Could that have actually cooked the CCV prematurely?

I know virtually nothing about the CCV, hence I have not commented on this thread. However, if a vacuum hose is called for, and you used a fuel line, then that may have caused the problem. As I understand it, the fuel line would have collapsed under vacuum thus blocking the hose. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Monsignor 11-13-2012 07:14 PM

I used fuel line on my Z's catch can (which is between the PCV on the valve cover and the intake plenum) because it is actually stronger.

Josh429er 11-13-2012 07:22 PM

Lol corrected?

BMR_LVR 11-13-2012 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95 E34 (Post 7193438)
I used fuel line on my Z's catch can (which is between the PCV on the valve cover and the intake plenum) because it is actually stronger.

I learn something new every day. I would like to feel the correct vacumm hose for the CCV and compare its pliability to the fuel line he put on there though.

Monsignor 11-13-2012 07:50 PM

I couldn't pinch my line between my thumb and index finger, or it was difficult.

BMR_LVR 11-13-2012 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95 E34 (Post 7193518)
I couldn't pinch my line between my thumb and index finger, or it was difficult.

From his description of "little" fuel line, he may have used the soft rubber lines I have seen that would easily collapse under vacuum. Hard to know though without seeing feeling it or at the very least, seeing a picture to know what type of fuel line he used.

I hope he figures the problem out though.

Monsignor 11-13-2012 08:45 PM

I agree, Steve.


I use that sentence a lot

robertobaggio20 11-13-2012 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMR_LVR (Post 7193456)
I learn something new every day. I would like to feel the correct vacumm hose for the CCV and compare its pliability to the fuel line he put on there though.

I believe fuel lines take higher pressure than the vacuum pressure generated by a standard NA engine. Would be obliged if someone would confirm.

robertobaggio20 11-13-2012 11:05 PM

Having said that, how can a ccv system that's badly installed merely with weak vacuum lines, and how can a bad throttle body gasket, lead to the overconsumption of oil out through the tailpipe?

All that should happen is (a) crankcase gases are not being evacuated (b) unmetered air is getting into the engine. This should lead to bad running, poorer economy, and engine oil that gets denatured more quickly, but not the rapid loss of engine oil itself.

Unless someone corrects me here, I don't think you've found the problem...

Monsignor 11-14-2012 05:14 AM

As a pollution control system, many cars for a very long time have had recirc systems of valve cover air to separate oil vapors from it, to lessen the impact of those vapors entering the engine and being burnt and sent out the exhaust system.
Burnt oil is horribly bad for the environment.

When this recirc/separation system fails, it fails to remove the oil and oil vapors from crankcase atmosphere and subsequently from being burnt.


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