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-   -   Budget Stroker (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=658881)

Bluedevil1 11-18-2012 10:52 AM

Budget Stroker
 
I've been wondering about stroking my 540i and since I have picked up some m60 heads I might as well do everything at once.

Alot of ppl and builders use M5 crank with arrow rods and forged pistons....

BUT I never want to go with any kind of boost because I prefer a naturally aspirated engine.

How about just using the M5 crank and stock rods which are forged and forged pistons STD size? knocks off 3k for sleeving and about 2500 for rods ..I think ha
I didnt do any math but thats probably around a 4.6 or 4.7

I've looked at my cylinder walls about 5k miles ago and looks great!

I'd stay around 12.0:1 compression
m60 heads and cams
m60 intake
A1 headers
and supporting mods ie fuel tune

e39540iv8 11-18-2012 03:42 PM

What's your target HP and how much do you think you'll get with the mods listed.

By the way the S62 isn't that expensive anymore you can find some motors pretty cheap in the US. That thing can be tuned to around 400whp NA, of course it's going to be really loud. Plus the S62 is already a 5 litre, it's bored as well as stroked.

edjack 11-18-2012 04:43 PM

A stroker might be easier than transplanting all the different engine sensors and DME.

Bluedevil1 11-18-2012 05:50 PM

My target hp with this would be around 425-450 rwhp after EVERYthing is said and done... I want to stick with the m62, I just think it would be stellar to have a naturally aspirated 540i beating up an M5 without boost. Replacement parts and dme would be too much of a headache. I want to keep it as simple as possible .

And its already loud.... Just not quite what it will be with the headers and compression....ect ect

DennisCooper! 11-19-2012 05:22 AM

Hi,

I'm not so knowledgeable on this sort of engine conversion method etc, previously, I've had stuff like this done by people who do know !

However, you are wanting to go from a stock 280'ish bhp to around 500 bhp at the crank, for a 'budget' way of doing the job ? - I think you may well be asking too much here! Keep in mind Alpina did the 4.6 and 4.8 litre conversions on the BMW 4.4 engines and got somewhere around 350 and 375 bhp at the crank after doing their work - I believe they DID use Forged components etc so as to keep the potential reliability long term of the engine. Looks like you are asking/wanting another 100+ BHP and I'd guess that the amount of money you are going to spend to get that, reliably will be significantly more than if you supercharged the engine. However, you say you don't want to go the FI route, so to get around 500 BHP out of this engine you are going to (most likely) need to drop big money into getting it.

Take a look around as to what others have done and their power gains etc, don't forget your budget will also need to include any other uprated aspects to the engine, probably a stonger gearbox and diff. I'd also say you'd need to uprate your suspension and of course a BBK as well, which will all bump your pricing up substantially.

Lastly, I may well be totally wrong and the engine can be relatively easily and cost effectively taken to around 500 bhp!

Cheers, Dennis!

Bluedevil1 11-19-2012 06:52 AM

lol Yeah I was waiting for this....

I mentioned its after EVERYTHING IS SAID AND DONE

I really dont think it is out of the question

Knife edged m5 crank
Shot peened rods
Milled m60 heads pnp aftermarket cams
A1 Headers
Tune
M60 Intake

I think after JUST the m60 heads, stroker crank and headers I should be around 350-375 BHP not RWHP pretty easy

I Think this will be interesting to see what happens.

e39540iv8 11-19-2012 09:54 AM

Ask Bricas, he got his naturally aspirated M62 to get 282whp. Now you're stroking it and putting on heads which should give you more. 370 crank HP is definitely achievable no question but 450 wheel HP you're gonna have to spend alot more. Good luck with your goal but call VACmotorsports if you want some information, they build race M62s and they can definitely build you a ~600 crank HP M62 but it will cost an arm and a leg.

By the way I didn't know the M60 head was superior, can you explain it because I find it intriguing and awesome :D

Bluedevil1 11-19-2012 06:02 PM

Ok first off before anybody posts please read my posts clearly!

I am looking for 425 to 450 BRAKE HORSEPOWER in case people missed that.

And I have never said 500 hp at all, and I did also mention that i want to be 425-450 AFTER EVERYTHING is said and done.

Just with the stroke,heads,intake and headers I think I'll be right around 330 Whp

I see alot of people running 260-270 Stock and a few more that dynoed 275-290 with bolt ons and tune.

And 4 reasons on using the M60 heads

1) availability/cost for me
2) smaller chamber so more compression
3)Cams are a little hotter
4)two row teeth for timing chain

Other than that Identical

And "BUDGET" means 10-12k not a few thousand. By budget I mean about 50% of a built engine by VAC or other builder. I am looking to have a built by me engine not paid for bc I make tons of money. Then I can be proud of MY work.

e39540iv8 11-19-2012 10:50 PM

Quote:

My target hp with this would be around 425-450 rwhp after EVERYthing is said and done... I want to stick with the m62, I just think it would be stellar to have a naturally aspirated 540i beating up an M5 without boost. Replacement parts and dme would be too much of a headache. I want to keep it as simple as possible .

And its already loud.... Just not quite what it will be with the headers and compression....ect ect
Actually you did say rwhp which would be over 500 crank.

e39540iv8 11-19-2012 10:54 PM

I admire your goal but honestly 10-12k on a car like this is a waste. You should get an E39 M5 and do that up. Or get a better car. Believe me the E39 is a money pit and an old POS, I regret buying it and to think of spending 10-12k on it is just crazy to me. By the way for that much you could do an LS swap and make ALOT of HP. These BMW V8s are piece of ****, an LS3 will get you over 500whp NA.

Bluedevil1 11-20-2012 02:22 PM

Yes i could get an m5 but its more expensive overall and i love the 540, I've had three and I've had a few things go out but nothing more than 200$


Ls swap in a bimmer.... I'd get a Gto if i wanted an LS. American muscle is nice and I've had a few including a 99 cobra but not in a BMW


I don't see how the 540 is a pos...

the540wgn 11-20-2012 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e39540iv8 (Post 7204453)
Believe me the E39 is a money pit and an old POS

:confused:

DennisCooper! 11-20-2012 02:51 PM

Hi

As per above and previously quoted, you did ask for 425-450 rwhp. Rwhp to me and others suggest 'rear wheel horsepower and thus, as a ballpark that'd be around 500-530 bhp at the crank. To get those kinds of figures from the 4.4 V8 engine is going to cost I suspect more than you are envisaging. Could you perhaps mention how much you think it's going to cost? over on a few other forums, I believe similar projects on these engines and the S62 where owners have put up details of pricing so you could then compare.

e39540iv8 - I disagree with you in that sweeping statement! ANY car is a money pit and a potential POS if it's not properly and correctly looked after :)

Cheers, Dennis!

e39540iv8 11-20-2012 03:19 PM

I guess it must be an isolated incident being MY E39 is a POS and not you guys'. Honestly guys I used to love this car, the look is TIMELESS and the interior is very well laid out and I love the way it sounds but this car has really given me alot of trouble but as I said it must be my one that's f'ed up. I guess coming from an EVO the 540i is a little "boat-like" :D The steering is vague and elastic band like.

Bluedevil1 11-20-2012 05:49 PM

e39540iv8 , DennisCooper! I am sorry and I totally thought I wrote BHP and not RWHP I have been a mechanic for 13 years and I swear I do know the difference in "Reality" of nearly 500 bhp in our cars.


I realized the proof in upgrades like cams,pnp head ect are really not there for our cars so I will try my hardest to make sure there is a baseline, after m60 head and cams , and then that plus headers, ect ect I believe that these engines are capable of a ton of power and reliability will still be there as a daily driver.

e39540iv8 11-20-2012 08:27 PM

Good luck with the project and keep up posted ;)

PS: Regarding the LS swap the car would still be a BMW, only not under the hood. You'd still have the chassis dynamics, the interior only with a very powerful engine :D An LS3 would really be something and over 500whp in NA with mods.

PavelK313 11-20-2012 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e39540iv8 (Post 7206270)
Good luck with the project and keep up posted ;)

PS: Regarding the LS swap the car would still be a BMW, only not under the hood. You'd still have the chassis dynamics, the interior only with a very powerful engine :D An LS3 would really be something and over 500whp in NA with mods.

IMHO LS based engines are not for everyone.
I personally love the power they make but absolutely hate the way they look and especially the way they sound.

I prefer sound of OHC instead of push rod.
My dream swap into E39 would be 03-04 terminator.

DennisCooper! 11-21-2012 06:33 AM

Hi Bluedevil,

*Tongue in Cheek* - If you have been a mechanic for 13 years, and make an error between typing up BHP and RWHP - I wonder if I left my car with you for an oil change you'd drop in an Supercharged S62 inadvertently ?! ;)

*proper response* - As per above, you are looking to increase the oem 286 BHP to wanting around 425-450 BHP at the CRANK - which is still a 200 BHP increase over standard. As you've still not mentioned what you consider a 'budget' conversion would likely be in costs, it's hard to be more accurate. However, as Alpina themselves only took this engine to 375 BHP in their V8S models, I still say research more into exactly what they did and then research into how to then reliably get 100 BHP more and keeping it naturally aspirated. I still say the actual cost will be more than double or perhaps triple of what a tried and tested supercharger conversion would cost - but, I may be wrong! As you are a mechanic, you will save on 'labour' charges as you'll probably do the work yourself. To a customer like me, who doesn't know what a spanner is, I wonder what the cost would be to get 425-450 BHP from the 4.4 litre engine normally aspirated!

Cheers, Dennis!

Bluedevil1 11-21-2012 05:50 PM

As for my typing mistake ... lack of sleep as i run on 3-4 hrs.

139-164 crank HP difference but yes still a huge increase.

Labor thar has anything to do with performance is crazy high prices and i would never attempt this if i was paying for the labor.
IM hoping the head difference with cams are around 50-75bhp jump but its not always that easy i know.

LS swap is looking more and more intriguing everytime i research it,
a terminator engine is a great idea as far as power it can take in stock form is insane and twin screw is a plus!

I wanted yo try and make a adapter plate for that Eaton to bolt to our engines but still expensive as hell to fortify the engine.
If anything 400-410 might have to do when it comes to this stroker project

e39540iv8 11-21-2012 05:57 PM

No a Terminator engine wouldn't be good, it's iron block and will increase weight. In the Terminator sure it's amazing when you slap on a massive Kenne Bell but you really need an aluminum engine if you wanna do a swap. The LS3 is a good option in my opinion but the electronics are a bitch. Plus the traction control won't work anymore I'm sure and the cluster needs work and etc etc etc which discourages anyone because if it's just a matter of the engine sitting in the engine bay it's not even a challenge.

By the way PavelK313 who cares what the LS motor looks like, it's under the hood and if it's making over 500hp who cares. As for the sound they sound very aggressive and savage. Sure it's a different sound but I find the M62 even with the most aggressive pipes to be a little "refined" which is a good thing but for shear brutality it's not the engine of choice.....although neither is the LS. For shear brutality I've only found one car that fits the bill, the Ford GT. That car sounds like a storm with a free flowing exhaust.

Back to topic, this isn't gonna be cheap or easy both ways, LS or M62 but the LS will offer greater performance for the price. Is a 450hp M62 possible? Hell yes! It's just a matter of how much it takes. Hell for the right price VAC will build you a ~600hp M62/S62 race crate motor but again, the price is everything.

e39540iv8 11-21-2012 06:04 PM

By the way one question, is a twin screw blower absolutely not possible with the M62? Can't an adapter plate be machined on a non-vanos M62? This would make so much sense because a twin screw provides the most linear power/torque curve. I hate centrifugal SCs but FI either way is definitely the way to go. It's cheaper and has alot more potential. Sure, highly tuned NAs are a blast due to their responsiveness and feel but let's be honest this is an E39, while a great chassis it's a big car and the weight hurts it so FI makes sense in this platform. On a GT3 911 on the other hand NA is a must. Different car, different personality.

Bluedevil1 11-21-2012 07:08 PM

Yes that was my original ide, not sure how tuning would go but it should be straight forward.
if anyone knows of a cheap lower Plenum from a 03-04 cobra ill buy it to try as long as ill have a bad m62 in the shop. Twin screw is as close as you can get to N/A as far as boost goes. Kenne bell would be awesome to have on a m62!

Alot of options with that adapter hmmmm
i wish money was limitless and I'd quit work and work on projects the rest of my life and enjoy myself.

Topaz540i 11-21-2012 07:15 PM

Just get cai I hear its like +20 hp

Bluedevil1 11-21-2012 08:42 PM

Lol awhp too?

540s pretty much already have cai with a stock filter... you will be lucky to get 10

e39540iv8 11-22-2012 02:35 AM

How about an M60/M62 head on an S62 block? Would that work and eliminate any electronic issues due to it still having M60/M62 heads and intake? It would be a 5 litre and honestly you could get 450 crank HP from a setup like that with headers, intake, tune, throttle body, pulleys, manifold and worked heads. So would it fit?


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