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-   -   Motor Trend comparo: 1st Cadillac ATS, 2nd C350, 3rd 335i (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=660177)

Chris90 11-24-2012 08:09 PM

Motor Trend comparo: 1st Cadillac ATS, 2nd C350, 3rd 335i
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHE85kHxRw8

Quote:

The latest episode of "Head 2 Head" from Motor Trend is a battle of the little luxury sixes, looking to see which of these $50,000 sport sedans, all equipped with automatic transmissions, can lay the largest claim to your money: the 321-horsepower, six-speed Cadillac ATS 3.6, the 302-horsepower, seven-speed Mercedes-Benz C350 Sport or the 300-horsepower, eight-speed BMW 335i.

Ouch. 335i is described as rubbery and not fun to drive.

I know Motor Trend is a rag, but jeez, losing to a C350? That's almost worse than losing to the ATS.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/24/m...illac-ats-3-6/

bmw_or_audi 11-24-2012 08:29 PM

I can't believe they don't have the specs of the specific car tested written down somewhere. SO many magazines do that it drives me crazy.

Did it have the dynamic handling package?

Did it have summer or all-season tires?

beden1 11-24-2012 08:44 PM

BMW F32/F30 = rebadged Cadillac Cimarron
Mercedes C350 = rebadged BMW 3 Series E92
Cadillac ATS = rebadged combination Nissan 370Z, Mercedes C350 and BMW 3 Series E92

Oh how the mighty have fallen! First the 5 Series and now the 3 Series.

I foresee the average age of BMW owners growing older in the near future. :)

beden1 11-24-2012 09:08 PM

I think BMW should have left the 3 and 5 Series alone, and continued their traditions as sport sedans. If they wanted to attract buyers who want a more comfortable ride, and things like Luxury line models, then they should have introduced that with the 4 Series, the redesigned 6 Series and the 7 Series.

boltjaM3s 11-24-2012 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris90 (Post 7212282)
Ouch. 335i is described as rubbery and not fun to drive.

I know Motor Trend is a rag, but jeez, losing to a C350? That's almost worse than losing to the ATS.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/24/m...illac-ats-3-6/

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1 (Post 7212310)
BMW F32/F30 = rebadged Cadillac Cimarron
Mercedes C350 = rebadged BMW 3 Series E92
Cadillac ATS = rebadged combination Nissan 370Z, Mercedes C350 and BMW 3 Series E92

Oh how the mighty have fallen! First the 5 Series and now the 3 Series.

I foresee the average age of BMW owners growing older in the near future.

And yet again, E90 owners are heard from, trying to justify why they drive old, out of style used cars that any 15 year old can buy with his summer job money.

I have a great idea. Since you hate the F30 so much, don't buy one.

BJ

boltjaM3s 11-24-2012 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi (Post 7212299)
I can't believe they don't have the specs of the specific car tested written down somewhere. SO many magazines do that it drives me crazy.

Did it have the dynamic handling package?

Did it have summer or all-season tires?

It doesn't matter.

Motor Trend is in the magazine business. You sell a lot more magazines when you print a controversial story, and there's nothing more predictable than BMW winning a sport sedan comparo.

The F30 is a bigger, softer version of it's prior forms and it's to be expected that so-called "enthusiast" rags won't see the value in it. BMW has built the car to the specs that it's customers want, and clearly their customers want a softer ride with a boatload of creature comforts. No such comparo for that.

BJ

beden1 11-24-2012 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s (Post 7212342)
And yet again, E90 owners are heard from, trying to justify why they drive old, out of style used cars that any 15 year old can buy with his summer job money.
I have a great idea. Since you hate the F30 so much, don't buy one.

BJ

Just checked KBB for the value of my car with 5,000 miles. It's still worth more than you paid for yours. $50,603

boltjaM3s 11-24-2012 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1 (Post 7212339)
I think BMW should have left the 3 and 5 Series alone, and continued their traditions as sport sedans. If they wanted to attract buyers who want a more comfortable ride, and things like Luxury line models, then they should have introduced that with the 4 Series, the redesigned 6 Series and the 7 Series.

I think BMW knows what it's doing. They have decades of sales information, millions of datapoints, they know how to build the precise cars that their customers want.

Last time I looked, the F30 was performing very well, the MB is no different than it was in years past, and the ATS isn't selling.

Every curve, every dimension, every feature on the F30 is there because that's what BMW's customers told them they wanted. Do not question the car or it's intended buyers. You aren't one of them. You're not the target audience. If you liked the car, it would be a shock. The fact that you detest it is precisely what's supposed to happen.

BJ

boltjaM3s 11-24-2012 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1 (Post 7212346)
Just checked KBB for the value of my car with 5,000 miles. It's still worth more than you paid for yours. $50,603

Sure, you put up an ad at that price, tell me how many offers you get. Low mileage doesn't matter when the car looks as old as that.

BJ

-=Hot|Ice=- 11-24-2012 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1 (Post 7212310)
BMW F32/F30 = rebadged Cadillac Cimarron
Mercedes C350 = rebadged BMW 3 Series E92
Cadillac ATS = rebadged combination Nissan 370Z, Mercedes C350 and BMW 3 Series E92

Oh how the mighty have fallen! First the 5 Series and now the 3 Series.

I foresee the average age of BMW owners growing older in the near future.

You should of seen this coming when they introduced the F01 7 series. It was only a matter of time that it trickled down the line. The average age of BMW owners is somewhere around 47. I think BMW is exactly where it wants to be for awhile. They've completely changed their cars to signify this.

beden1 11-24-2012 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s (Post 7212350)
Sure, you put up an ad at that price, tell me how many offers you get. Low mileage doesn't matter when the car looks as old as that.

BJ

Actually, I would probably get over that price since my car is so clean and has every option except for parking sensors. I also feel the value will stay strong for a number of years because BMW did not make many 335is' particularly in convertibles.

Used car values are also currently rising due to the many cars lost during hurricane Sandy, and there is an overall shortage of quality used cars for the years 2009 through 2011 because car sales in general were down during that period due to the recession.

But, I'm not interested in selling my car.

boltjaM3s 11-24-2012 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi (Post 7212299)
I can't believe they don't have the specs of the specific car tested written down somewhere. SO many magazines do that it drives me crazy.

Did it have the dynamic handling package?

Did it have summer or all-season tires?

I just watched the review.

The first 60% of the review deals with infotainment systems, and the BMW blew away the Mercedes and destroyed the Cadillac.

The last 40% of the review deals with driving dynamics, and the reviewer says that the Cadillac drives better in the curves than it does in a straight line, the Cadillac has a harsh ride that Cadillac customers will not appreciate, and the Cadillac needs a new transmission. So, of course, Cadillac wins. LOL.

All that's needed to make enthusiast magazines happy is a car that's not good to drive the way normal people drive it- on city streets and on the highway. They bring three cars to a canyon and declare the flawed car with no customer base the winner. What a scam.

But it'll sell magazines, and that's what's important.

BJ

boltjaM3s 11-24-2012 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1 (Post 7212360)
Actually, I would probably get over that price since my car is so clean and has every option except for parking sensors. I also feel the value will stay strong for a number of years because BMW did not make many 335is' particularly in convertibles.

Used car values are also currently rising due to the many cars lost during hurricane Sandy, and there is an overall shortage of quality used cars for the years 2009 through 2011 because car sales in general were down during that period.

But, I'm not interested in selling my car.

Your car is not some enthusiasts dream or a future collectible. It's a pedestrian BMW hardtop convertible. Nice car, but let's not go crazy.

And as for driving dynamics, I've driven your car and the F30 4 cylinder is more fun to drive and more connected to the road than the E93. Your car is at its finest at 30 MPH on a sunny day. Top up at 90 MPH, not the best purchase decision.

BJ

av98 11-24-2012 09:39 PM

You all do know that the 3 series the ATS was based on was the E46 right? Check out "Competitive Benchmarking" section in the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_ATS

More articles from MT interviewing Cadillac

http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows...ts_first_look/

The review hits on what the previous 3 series enthusiast owners feedback has been on the F30.

Great thing is that BMW M Performance has products that can get you back to the older 3 series feel. It's a matter of time before they come out with a BMW M Performance package. :)

beden1 11-24-2012 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s (Post 7212365)
Your car is not some enthusiasts dream or a future collectible. It's a pedestrian BMW hardtop convertible. Nice car, but let's not go crazy.

And as for driving dynamics, I've driven your car and the F30 4 cylinder is more fun to drive and more connected to the road than the E93. Your car is at its finest at 30 MPH on a sunny day. Top up at 90 MPH, not the best purchase decision.

BJ

Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black, and from what you have said here, you have definitely never driven a 335is.

-=Hot|Ice=- 11-24-2012 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by av98 (Post 7212366)
You all do know that the 3 series the ATS was based on was the E46 right?

The review has been hitting the forum readers previous 3 series enthusiast owners feedback.

Great thing is that BMW M Performance has products that can get you back to the older 3 series feel. It's a matter of time before they come out with a BMW M Performance package. :)

Yeah, The M Sport stuff will help make the steering feel go from 'light and boring' to 'give your muscles a work out and boring'. :thumbup: :rofl:

boltjaM3s 11-24-2012 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by av98 (Post 7212366)
You all do know that the 3 series the ATS was based on was the E46 right?

The review hits on what the previous 3 series enthusiast owners feedback has been on the F30.

Great thing is that BMW M Performance has products that can get you back to the older 3 series feel. It's a matter of time before they come out with a BMW M Performance package.

The ultimate goal of a sport sedan is to sell millions of units to happy customers. The ATS isn't selling, the Mercedes has plateaued, and the F30 is thriving. All this other rhetoric about "sporty dynamics" matters only to a very small niche of people.

Motor Trend spent 60% of the video talking about infotainment systems. The headline should have been "Infotainment Comparo - BMW By A Landslide" on two accounts: First, it would have been a more honest representation of this bogus comparo, Second, infotainment systems mean more to the average buyer in this segment than steering feel by a ratio of about 100:1.

BJ

boltjaM3s 11-24-2012 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1 (Post 7212367)
Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black, and from what you have said here, you have definitely never driven a 335is.

I owned my E93 longer than you've owned yours, and I put 30,000 miles on mine while you struggle to get to 5,000 so please don't tell me who is an expert on its driving characteristics and who isn't.

Your car is a sporty-looking, tops-down family cruiser, nothing more. And, by the way, that's what BMW intended it to be. You can be a pretend Andretti in your Porsche.

BJ

-=Hot|Ice=- 11-24-2012 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s (Post 7212375)
I owned my E93 longer than you've owned yours, and I put 30,000 miles on mine while you struggle to get to 5,000 so please don't tell me who is an expert on its driving characteristics and who isn't.

Your car is a sporty-looking, tops-down family cruiser, nothing more. And, by the way, that's what BMW intended it to be. You can be a pretend Andretti in your Porsche.

BJ

Don't most BMW's fall into that category? I honestly can't call the M cars sports cars anymore. They're too bloated and dull to drive. Sports sedan/Coupe/Convertible would be more fitting.

av98 11-24-2012 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s (Post 7212370)
The ultimate goal of a sport sedan is to sell millions of units to happy customers. The ATS isn't selling, the Mercedes has plateaued, and the F30 is thriving. All this other rhetoric about "sporty dynamics" matters only to a very small niche of people.

Motor Trend spent 60% of the video talking about infotainment systems. The headline should have been "Infotainment Comparo - BMW By A Landslide" on two accounts: First, it would have been a more honest representation of this bogus comparo, Second, infotainment systems mean more to the average buyer in this segment than steering feel by a ratio of about 100:1.

BJ

Sadly, every sales person I drove with for any BMW test drive do confirm that potential buyers are more concerned about rear view cameras and the features of the NAV vs how the car drives. Guess that's what sells and is shaping BMW, sadly we will all be driving Lexus type cars in the future... :(

beden1 11-24-2012 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s (Post 7212375)
I owned my E93 longer than you've owned yours, and I put 30,000 miles on mine while you struggle to get to 5,000 so please don't tell me who is an expert on its driving characteristics and who isn't.

Your car is a sporty-looking, tops-down family cruiser, nothing more. And, by the way, that's what BMW intended it to be. You can be a pretend Andretti in your Porsche.

BJ

When did you own a 3 Series convertible (335i or 335is or otherwise)? And, in my Porsche, I don't have to pretend to be anybody else.

-=Hot|Ice=- 11-24-2012 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by av98 (Post 7212380)
Sadly, every sales person I drove with for any BMW test drive do confirm that potential buyers are more concerned about rear view cameras and the features of the NAV vs how the car drives. Guess that's what sells and is shaping BMW, sadly we will all be driving Lexus type cars in the future... :(

There's always Porsche. I hope to own a Cayman one day. Driving pleasure maximized to it's fullest.

beden1 11-24-2012 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by av98 (Post 7212380)
Sadly, every sales person I drove with for any BMW test drive do confirm that potential buyers are more concerned about rear view cameras and the features of the NAV vs how the car drives. Guess that's what sells and is shaping BMW, sadly we will all be driving Lexus type cars in the future... :(

Most people looking to buy a BMW probably only care about the badge, but there is a core group of BMW owners who are going to be turned off by the softening of the brand. This will open up opportuntities for other car manufacturers to offer what BMW no longer produces. I think this hurts BMW in that the enthusiast market is significant and is a strong benefit to their image sales.

Lexus is coming out with what looks to be a strong competitor car, and Porsche is rumored to be coming out with a priced BMW competitor as well (to name but a couple).

trinipirate 11-24-2012 10:02 PM

sorry but part of why i buy a car depends on looks too. the benz on the inside is still ancient, i can't get past the ATS's ugly dated body, and i would get the 335 in a heartbeat. followed by the benz, and stick in a volvo (yes i said volvo) or audi before the ATS. all in the same class of course.

beden1 11-24-2012 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- (Post 7212384)
There's always Porsche. I hope to own a Cayman one day. Driving pleasure maximized to it's fullest.

You're already driving one of the best all around performance cars on the planet.


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