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-   -   Is this a valid lemon claim? (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661065)

Gurud 11-28-2012 05:52 PM

Is this a valid lemon claim?
 
If in the first month of ownership the dealer replaces the entire sunroof and the headliner? Car was taken in 4 times and spent almost 20 days at the dealer over the course of 5 weeks.

This was done in response to a rattle (loose sunroof perhaps). I am not convinced the car is entirely rattle free even after all this...

So far BMW has offered me a small refund, approx one lease payment's worth.

While I absolutely love the car, rattle is annoying and I am not quite sure what my rights are. A strict interpretation of NY lemon law would imply there is something there...

Needsdecaf 11-28-2012 06:16 PM

No, you do not qualify. The problem was ultimately fixed. Also, you do not meet the 30 days out of service requirements. I had a car that was to be lemoned in NY, and it ultimately wasn't as it was ruled that Nissan had "one last shot" and they finally fixed it. During that course, I became very familiar with NY Lemon Laws.

wildvlad 11-28-2012 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurud (Post 7219975)
If in the first month of ownership the dealer replaces the entire sunroof and the headliner? Car was taken in 4 times and spent almost 20 days at the dealer over the course of 5 weeks.

This was done in response to a rattle (loose sunroof perhaps). I am not convinced the car is entirely rattle free even after all this...

So far BMW has offered me a small refund, approx one lease payment's worth.

While I absolutely love the car, rattle is annoying and I am not quite sure what my rights are. A strict interpretation of NY lemon law would imply there is something there...

If this is the lease - why bother? You are driving loaner with unlimited free miles!

The more it breaks - the more free miles you can get out of the loaner, the newer your car remains, less wear and tear on the tires, lesser chance of going over the mile allowance at the end of the lease.

Gurud 11-28-2012 07:11 PM

It is not a lease, i own the car. They just offered me the equivalent of one month's payment.

Gurud 11-29-2012 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf (Post 7220024)
No, you do not qualify. The problem was ultimately fixed. Also, you do not meet the 30 days out of service requirements. I had a car that was to be lemoned in NY, and it ultimately wasn't as it was ruled that Nissan had "one last shot" and they finally fixed it. During that course, I became very familiar with NY Lemon Laws.

Isn't there also a clause which says the dealer is allowed 4 attempts to fix the car. It has been 4 for me.

RambleJ 11-29-2012 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurud (Post 7219975)
If in the first month of ownership the dealer replaces the entire sunroof and the headliner? Car was taken in 4 times and spent almost 20 days at the dealer over the course of 5 weeks.

This was done in response to a rattle (loose sunroof perhaps). I am not convinced the car is entirely rattle free even after all this...

So far BMW has offered me a small refund, approx one lease payment's worth.

While I absolutely love the car, rattle is annoying and I am not quite sure what my rights are. A strict interpretation of NY lemon law would imply there is something there...

BMW did that to me, offered me a months payment. I took it and shut up, then more problems kept happening, then I just reached out to a lemon laywer and in a matter of a couple weeks the car was out of my hands and a nice was replaced with a nice check to put down on my E60.

Do not take the words of someone here as gold, reach out to a lemon lawyer and they will tell you if you have a case or not. Its as simple as asking the professional who deals with these issues on a day to day basis.

And I have experience in doing this as I have lemoned 2 cars in the last 4 years... One a new lease and the second a low mile pre owned. There are cars out there that are just lemons and the owner should no have to suffer.

chuck92116 11-29-2012 07:55 AM

In California the lemon law kicks in if you take the car in for the same repair more than 3 times, or if any single repair requires the car to be in the shop longer than 30 days.

If the delay or repairs are due to parts delay BMW would usually offer to buy back the car with a trade assist in lieu of the lemon law process.

Quacker 11-29-2012 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck92116 (Post 7220869)
In California the lemon law kicks in if you take the car in for the same repair more than 3 times, or if any single repair requires the car to be in the shop longer than 30 days.

If the delay or repairs are due to parts delay BMW would usually offer to buy back the car with a trade assist in lieu of the lemon law process.

Hi Chuck,

Are you sure that the 30 day rule applies on a per defect basis? Over here, I think it's 30 days total for all defects combined during the first year of ownership.

dannyc9997 11-29-2012 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quacker (Post 7221349)
Hi Chuck,

Are you sure that the 30 day rule applies on a per defect basis? Over here, I think it's 30 days total for all defects combined during the first year of ownership.

If they supply you with appropriate substitute transportation, it's my understanding that eliminates the "time limit" since you are not without a car.

Carlemon.com (for what it's worth) says this

Quote:

If your vehicle has been out of service for repair because of problems covered by the warranty:

for a total of 30 days or more, not necessarily all at one time, during the first 24 months or 24,000 miles, and
there were two repair attempts during the first 12 months or 12,000 miles immediately after delivery, and
a substantial problem still exists
you pass the 30-days test.

If a comparable loaner vehicle was provided while the vehicle was being repaired, that time does not count toward the 30 days.
That's for texas but I assume similar rules for most if not all states

chuck92116 11-29-2012 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quacker (Post 7221349)
Hi Chuck,

Are you sure that the 30 day rule applies on a per defect basis? Over here, I think it's 30 days total for all defects combined during the first year of ownership.

30 days or more for any repair(s), this is about getting your car back in a timely manner. i.e. They can't just keep in for 5 months waiting on parts. It has nothing to do with defects per se, it is about getting a timely repair. It does not matter if you are given a loaner car.

Needsdecaf 11-29-2012 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurud (Post 7220641)
Isn't there also a clause which says the dealer is allowed 4 attempts to fix the car. It has been 4 for me.

It's three strikes and you're out, but it's fixed. You might be worried long term, but if you really wanted to lemon the car, you should have stopped after the third attempt and said you had your shot.

Now the car is fixed and the arbitrator will say "mfgr. did their job, be on your way".

The X Men 11-29-2012 04:13 PM

I am pretty sure you cannot lemon a car for rattles anyways. Most lemon laws states that a problem have to render the car unoperational or a safety problem. You best bet is to go thru the BMW trade assist route, but like needsdecaf said, if the problem is fixed, its a moot point.

Gurud 11-29-2012 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The X Men (Post 7221947)
I am pretty sure you cannot lemon a car for rattles anyways. Most lemon laws states that a problem have to render the car unoperational or a safety problem. You best bet to thru the BMW trade assist route, but like needsdecaf said, the problem is fixed so its a moot point.

The problem is not really fixed though. I still hear a rattle and it is annoying. Noticed it a lot today.

In NY i believe the law states that the dealer gets 4 attempts to fix it.

Also, it is not just about a simple rattle. BMW would not have replaced entire sunroof and headliner and offer me money if it was a trivial thing.

I was contemplating whether to file the lemon paperwork myself, bad idea?

Gurud 11-29-2012 05:10 PM

Was not familiar with trade assist. After reading about it, i would be very happy with that.

Will ask my dealer about it. Or should I go directly to BMW NA?

hh3uunp 11-29-2012 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurud (Post 7222042)
The problem is not really fixed though. I still hear a rattle and it is annoying. Noticed it a lot today.

In NY i believe the law states that the dealer gets 4 attempts to fix it.

Also, it is not just about a simple rattle. BMW would not have replaced entire sunroof and headliner and offer me money if it was a trivial thing.

I was contemplating whether to file the lemon paperwork myself, bad idea?

If I paid that much for a car I would be so angry. Is it a really annoying rattle I drove a toyota highlander with the most annoying rattle I wanted to crash it into the guard rail

jmfan 11-29-2012 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurud (Post 7222052)
Was not familiar with trade assist. After reading about it, i would be very happy with that.

Will ask my dealer about it. Or should I go directly to BMW NA?

Contact BMW relations directly.

I had a rattle problem with my 328 convertible top that would not go away after numerous attempts and over a month in the shop. I wrote a nice email letter to BMW relations telling them I loved the car but could not accept the noisy top. I got an immediate response and was assigned a rep. Within one week someone from BMW drove my car at the dealership. I was offered a complete buy back the next day for 100% what I paid for it including taxes and registration. I did not have to buy another BMW but with the excellent customer service I received, I ordered a new 535. It took two and a half months to get the new car and BMW let me continue driving the 328 at no charge. I don't know many companies that offer that level of customer service.

Gurud 11-30-2012 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmfan (Post 7222443)
Contact BMW relations directly.

I have been in contact with BMW customer relations about this. They have assigned a rep and she is the one who offered me the cash back equivalent to one lease payment.

As you suggested, I sent them (another) long email yesterday saying that my intention is to own a 2013 535 as long as it is not defective. I am not looking to get my money back, just a defect free car. Lets see what happens....

jmfan 11-30-2012 07:09 AM

Not knowing all of the specifics of your situation, it may not warrant the same response I got from BMW, at least at this point in your repair attempts. Plus the lemon laws are different in your state and these factors will obviously determine how BMW responds to different problems. I am sure they have specific policies for dealing with different scenarios.

In my case, the dealer made 5 attempts to repair and they could not make the rattle go away completely. They got close but the problem always resurfaced within a day after picking up the car from service. The dealer was frustrated but kept attempting to fix it to my satisfaction.

The problem started as a simple rattle around the driverís window. I took the car in at 800 miles for the first repair attempt. After the second attempt, I was told that the trunk was not aligned properly at the factory causing the top to get tweaked after opening and closing. The dealer spent days and weeks for each visit trying to realign everything to make the noise go away without success. Some minor paint repair was also needed where the top rubbed against the rear quarter panel. I think the dealer had given up and BMW had already incurred so much expense for labor, parts and loaner cars that it was more effective for them to get me out of the car and cut their losses. There may have been more underlying causes that were not disclosed to me.

I considered my problem to be more cosmetic than major mechanical. It did not keep me from driving the car, except for the time in service, but it affected my ďjoyĒ of driving. The noise was not horrible and many people would have probably lived with it. I found it unacceptable for a car in this price range and BMW agreed.

I was frankly shocked that I did not have to fight BMW harder. I was prepared to hire a lemon law attorney if necessary. A simple email asking to BMW asking for help yielded a very positive result for me.

When I first spoke to the BMW Relations rep, I was asked what I wanted to be happy. He immediately offered me the equivalent of three monthís payments to see if that would satisfy me. I told him it was not a money issue. I loved the car and simply wanted help to get the problem corrected. Once a representative from BMW inspected my car and reviewed my case, I was immediately offered a buy back.

My suggestion is to keep taking it to the dealer for attempted repairs. Try another dealer if possible. If there is a legitimate issue then BMW will ultimately find a way to satisfy the problem. If not, contact a lemon law attorney.

Gurud 11-30-2012 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmfan (Post 7222921)
My suggestion is to keep taking it to the dealer for attempted repairs. Try another dealer if possible. If there is a legitimate issue then BMW will ultimately find a way to satisfy the problem. If not, contact a lemon law attorney.

That is the course I am planning to follow. However, it has been 5 attempts already, where they fix this and that (after replacing sunroof and headliner). I am getting close to just saying to BMW to swap the car or I go the lemon route.

Do you need an attorney? Or can I do this myself?

The X Men 11-30-2012 09:08 AM

NY state new car lemon law:

Exceptions when manufacturers may not be required to provide a refund or replacement:
The problem does not substantially impair the value of the car to the consumer; OR
The problem is a result of abuse, neglect or unauthorized alteration of the car.

http://www.ag.ny.gov/consumer-frauds...law-fact-sheet

Rather a rattles can substantially impair the value of the car is up for debate. I would write an Email to the BMW rep stating your intention to file for a lemon law claim. If you really have a case, they will return your communication within days to try to work something out. An attorney can tell you your rights and rather you qualify for the lemon law or not, but you can file for the lemon law claim yourself.

Good Luck

jmfan 11-30-2012 09:18 AM

If you havenít already done this, tell your BMW Relations representative you want someone from BMW (other than the dealer) to inspect your car to verify the problem. If they agree, you will be asked to drop the car off at the dealer and they will give you a loaner. This took about a week for me. I believe an area manager from BMW reviewed my case at the dealer and drove the car. I was constantly updated by my BMW Relations rep. by phone and email. I was not present during the inspection. The BMW manager visited the dealership on a Friday and on the following Monday morning I was notified they were doing a complete buy back.

In my situation I did not have to use an attorney or have the need to go to that level. I simply asked BMW for help in a very nice way and I got treated like royalty. I got to a point where I could no longer rely on the story the dealer was telling BMW in my case.

Again, your specific case could be very different than mine, but it sounds similar.

Gurud 11-30-2012 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmfan (Post 7223196)
In my situation I did not have to use an attorney or have the need to go to that level. I simply asked BMW for help in a very nice way and I got treated like royalty. I got to a point where I could no longer rely on the story the dealer was telling BMW in my case.

Again, your specific case could be very different than mine, but it sounds similar.

Actually this may be even simpler. It will take about one minute to illustrate the problem.

At standstill, when I gently push up against the sunroof glass with my palm, it budges and creaks. This is the new and replaced sunroof.

In contrast, my 2007 530 sunroof is rock solid when I do the same to it.

Gurud 11-30-2012 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmfan (Post 7223196)
If you havenít already done this, tell your BMW Relations representative you want someone from BMW (other than the dealer) to inspect your car to verify the problem..

The car has been repaired at a facility other than the dealer. BMW has a service center nearby.

They verified the original problem and did all the subsequent repairs. The service manager there is well aware of the issue.

jmfan 11-30-2012 10:33 AM

I would not find your sunroof problem acceptable either and it is not normal. My 535 does not do that. In fact my car is 100% rattle and squeak free so far. I have read about a few sunroofs exploding but have not heard anyone else complaining about it being loose or creaking.

If your service manager admits the problem exists after all the repairs then you are in the same position as me. In my case, the dealer probably would have kept attempting repairs, but I could tell they wanted to throw in the towel. I am pretty sure they were in communication with BMW, but it took action on my part to get BMW to move towards a buy back.

I think your only course of action at this point is to hopefully get satisfaction from BMW Relations by moving the issue up the BMW ladder or seeking the advice of a lemon law attorney.

In preparation for a potential lemon lawsuit, I fully documented the dates and times of every visit, all email and phone conversations and each employee name, from the day I found the problem. A lemon law attorney will definitely want this information. If you havenít already done this, start writing down as much of this information as you can while it is still fresh in your mind. I have found that dealers will list symptoms and corrections on the service paperwork, but they are careful to generalize on things that may incriminate them after repeated repairs. My paperwork never stated that the service manager drove the car with me numerous times and admitted to the problem.

jmfan 11-30-2012 10:43 AM

This is a total long shot, but one other possible solution is to ask to speak to the general manager of your dealership to see if he can help you. I did not have to go this route, but depending on the quality of your dealership, they may help escalate the problem with BMW Relations, or even offer to get you into another car.


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