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-   -   Is this consistent with the BMW brand? (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661454)

clinkinfo 11-30-2012 07:29 PM

Is this consistent with the BMW brand?
 
So long story short, an 08 4.8 x5 has developed 4 significant oil leaks at 58000 miles. Specifically, the valve cover, the vacuum pump, the oil switch, and the upper left timing case cover are all leaking oil.

The leaks are significant enough to be dripping oil out onto the ground.

After some conversations with the dealer and BMWNA, the dealer began to try and take the IMO odd position that (paraphrasing):

Well, at this mileage is COMMON for BMW engines to leak significant oil. We see it frequently.

Now, having owned about 5 different BMWs over the years, as well as some competitive brands, I can honestly say I've never experienced any significant oil leaks at any mileage with those other cars, much less the catastrophic seal failure(s) that have begun on this x5. My recollection is manufacturers learned how to competently seal simple things like valve covers about 40 years ago.

Of course, I've called the dealer out a bit on that comment/position. As a degreed mechanical engineer and a car enthusiast, there is no way you can convince me that in this day and age MULTIPLE seal and gasket leaks at such a young age and mileage, especially after receiving ALL proper Prescribed maintance, can be considered reasonable. Forget about the concepts we all love to believe about BMW, like any degree of design or manufacturing excellence.

So here's the question:

If the statement is true, and failures like this are expected just after warranty, how can anyone argue in support of BMW design/manufacturing quality.

If the statement is untrue, why would you want to try and give consumers that impression about your brand?

Either way, how does that position help the brand image with the consumer? or is that now sadly the new level of BMW quality?

vavet5308 11-30-2012 08:26 PM

I see what you're saying and empathize with you, but I would say your previous experience is exceptional and your current experience is more typical, but 58k still seems a bit early. Have your driving conditions changed? I see you're in NJ. Are you doing more short trip driving than with your previous BMWs or did you own them in NM, only driving them on 3 hour long trips?

clinkinfo 12-01-2012 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vavet5308 (Post 7224351)
I see what you're saying and empathize with you, but I would say your previous experience is exceptional and your current experience is more typical, but 58k still seems a bit early. Have your driving conditions changed? I see you're in NJ. Are you doing more short trip driving than with your previous BMWs or did you own them in NM, only driving them on 3 hour long trips?

No, really no changes. Just a strange and sudden thing. I'm surprised to hear you say that, especially given past BMW experiences and the fact that other manufacturer's have had oil seals figured out for decades. The 100k 05 x3 is even dry as a bone!

Seems very unacceptable for a brand of BMW's pricing premiums. You would think at the extreme even the EPA would even have issues with that type of answer. Yeah, our designs leak oil onto the ground after 50k miles....it's normal.

Elias 12-01-2012 06:04 AM

This is a big reason why a lot people don't want to own Bmw's any more after 50k. The reliability factor has been poor these last few years on some of their models. I'm not at all
surprised your having oil leaks at 50k, if you go to the X5 forums i'm sure you will see other issues common to X5s. If I was you I would dump that car or extend your warranty asap.

clinkinfo 12-01-2012 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elias (Post 7224728)
This is a big reason why a lot people don't want to own Bmw's any more after 50k. The reliability factor has been poor these last few years on some of their models. I'm not at all
surprised your having oil leaks at 50k, if you go to the X5 forums i'm sure you will see other issues common to X5s. If I was you I would dump that car or extend your warranty asap.


I was looking at the x5 forums for similar stories, didn't find an overwhelming number of them.

As a long time BMW lover, this is a sad statement on the brand and likely will make me think harder about alternatives the next time around.

vavet5308 12-01-2012 07:32 PM

I think it's a mentality thing. It's just sort of accepted that oil leaks will happen and they will be addressed. It's not an issue. It's almost like back in the days when spark plugs and points had to be changed and the timing had to be set a couple times a year, the carburetor had be every 2 years, etc. It was just something you accepted with owning a vehicle. BMW dedicates their efforts to developing innovative technologies and safety features.

x3brian 12-02-2012 09:18 AM

These gaskets do fail but in experience it's closer to 150k or 6 or 7 years.

I too am an engineer and agree 100%. However, I do have a theory that prolonged oil change durations contribute to this. Did you 100% follow BMW oil changes? That's only about 3 oil changes in 58k miles.

Now with that said ask for goodwill!!!! At 58k and a 2008 you are in the running for it. The dealer controls that process not BMWNA. It sounds like this dealer doesn't want your repeat business and is playing shuck and jive so you don't ask for it!

clinkinfo 12-03-2012 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x3brian (Post 7226521)
These gaskets do fail but in experience it's closer to 150k or 6 or 7 years.

I too am an engineer and agree 100%. However, I do have a theory that prolonged oil change durations contribute to this. Did you 100% follow BMW oil changes? That's only about 3 oil changes in 58k miles.

Now with that said ask for goodwill!!!! At 58k and a 2008 you are in the running for it. The dealer controls that process not BMWNA. It sounds like this dealer doesn't want your repeat business and is playing shuck and jive so you don't ask for it!


Appreciate the comments, and we are working on the goodwill side of things, don't know what the outcome will be yet.

Certainly, your assessment of 150k seems far more reasonable from an engineering perspective to expect potential leaking issues. Yes, 100% followed the BMW maintance schedule and I agree with your suspicions. I've often wondered about these long duration oil changes, I'm not a huge fan of them. But the industry does seem to be moving in that direction as a whole. But you might be on to something.

It's interesting, there's an independent BMW mechanic here in my town who I don't know well at all. But in my conversation with him, he said the seals are not the issue on these engines, it's the oil switch. In his experience, the oil switch fails and causes some type of pressure problem which forces oil out the seals. I can't confirm any of that, but it was an interesting alternative perspective from someone who claimed to fix many of them.

in the past, I've loved working on my different BMW's as I often appreciated the engineering thought that went into many components. But if others are also having these type of problems and BMW is claiming them to be normal, there are serious design/manufacturing problems and an even more serious perspective problem from BMW itself.

x3brian 12-03-2012 08:09 PM

Keep us posted on your end results! The dealer does control the process so don't let them push you too hard.

Also if you are mechanically inclined these are not too horribly bad DIY jobs. I know on the x3 forums we have some solid write ups on our stickies for both the m54 and n52 inline six. I am sure similar postings are out there for your v8.

Also regarding oil changes I change mine every 8k miles with BMW 5w30 synthetic oil regardless of what the computer says. My 09 is at 103k miles and has no leaks and the lifters are as quite as a church mouse.

However I am a classic over maintainer. My end goal is 300k miles. For me it makes logical sense to do this. I promise I am NOT trying to start the 1,000,000 oil change debate thread. ;)

clinkinfo 12-04-2012 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x3brian (Post 7229472)
Keep us posted on your end results! The dealer does control the process so don't let them push you too hard.

Also if you are mechanically inclined these are not too horribly bad DIY jobs. I know on the x3 forums we have some solid write ups on our stickies for both the m54 and n52 inline six. I am sure similar postings are out there for your v8.

Also regarding oil changes I change mine every 8k miles with BMW 5w30 synthetic oil regardless of what the computer says. My 09 is at 103k miles and has no leaks and the lifters are as quite as a church mouse.

However I am a classic over maintainer. My end goal is 300k miles. For me it makes logical sense to do this. I promise I am NOT trying to start the 1,000,000 oil change debate thread. ;)

I've been debating tearing it down myself and repairing it. I almost want to do it just to see for myself what failed and how. I agree, looks easy enough.

I will post an update when I have one!

clinkinfo 12-04-2012 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x3brian (Post 7226521)
These gaskets do fail but in experience it's closer to 150k or 6 or 7 years.

I too am an engineer and agree 100%. However, I do have a theory that prolonged oil change durations contribute to this. Did you 100% follow BMW oil changes? That's only about 3 oil changes in 58k miles.

Now with that said ask for goodwill!!!! At 58k and a 2008 you are in the running for it. The dealer controls that process not BMWNA. It sounds like this dealer doesn't want your repeat business and is playing shuck and jive so you don't ask for it!


So latestest update, the dealer (and i guess BMWNA) is claiming the oil leaks are common and consistent with BMW's 'commitment to quality', therefore, they will not offer any assistance, whole or partial.

I clearly ket them know their commitment to quality is not consistent with my expectations of quality and I will therefore end my 15+ year relationship with their brand, and move to a brand more aligned with my expectations.

I do have to say though, it was a surprising response.

ProRail 12-04-2012 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clinkinfo (Post 7224260)
So long story short, an 08 4.8 x5 has developed 4 significant oil leaks at 58000 miles. Specifically, the valve cover, the vacuum pump, the oil switch, and the upper left timing case cover are all leaking oil.

The leaks are significant enough to be dripping oil out onto the ground.

After some conversations with the dealer and BMWNA, the dealer began to try and take the IMO odd position that (paraphrasing):

Well, at this mileage is COMMON for BMW engines to leak significant oil. We see it frequently.

Now, having owned about 5 different BMWs over the years, as well as some competitive brands, I can honestly say I've never experienced any significant oil leaks at any mileage with those other cars, much less the catastrophic seal failure(s) that have begun on this x5. My recollection is manufacturers learned how to competently seal simple things like valve covers about 40 years ago.

Of course, I've called the dealer out a bit on that comment/position. As a degreed mechanical engineer and a car enthusiast, there is no way you can convince me that in this day and age MULTIPLE seal and gasket leaks at such a young age and mileage, especially after receiving ALL proper Prescribed maintance, can be considered reasonable. Forget about the concepts we all love to believe about BMW, like any degree of design or manufacturing excellence.

So here's the question:

If the statement is true, and failures like this are expected just after warranty, how can anyone argue in support of BMW design/manufacturing quality.

If the statement is untrue, why would you want to try and give consumers that impression about your brand?

Either way, how does that position help the brand image with the consumer? or is that now sadly the new level of BMW quality?

Havent read the entire thread, but I've got a 1999 528 that has never lost a drop of oil. I take it in at about 13K and get the standard oil service. Have never had a service problem.

x3brian 12-04-2012 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clinkinfo (Post 7230999)
So latestest update, the dealer (and i guess BMWNA) is claiming the oil leaks are common and consistent with BMW's 'commitment to quality', therefore, they will not offer any assistance, whole or partial.

I clearly ket them know their commitment to quality is not consistent with my expectations of quality and I will therefore end my 15+ year relationship with their brand, and move to a brand more aligned with my expectations.

I do have to say though, it was a surprising response.

I am frustrated for you. Your state says NY but my first thought was you were in MD as there is a well known dealer that says similar stuff. Do you have a past relationship with this dealer?

Here is the deal...this is the dealers comment not BMWNA. The dealer has autonomy to authorize goodwill warranty repairs if it would have been covered by bumper to bumper, the car is less than 18 months out of warranty and the car has less than 75k miles. There is a TSB explaining this. It sounds like this dealer doesn't want your business because they are more concerned about the higher labor rate you pay vs BMW pays. I am very familiar with the goodwill policy as I had a failed front differential at 62k miles on my x3.

Here is a link to the TSB:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=439251

This is what I would do...find a new dealer and explain the situation politely that it should be covered under good will and you now want to create a new long term relationship for your BMWs and future purchases.

tturedraider 12-05-2012 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clinkinfo (Post 7224260)
So long story short, an 08 4.8 x5 has developed 4 significant oil leaks at 58000 miles. Specifically, the valve cover, the vacuum pump, the oil switch, and the upper left timing case cover are all leaking oil.

The leaks are significant enough to be dripping oil out onto the ground.

After some conversations with the dealer and BMWNA, the dealer began to try and take the IMO odd position that (paraphrasing):

Well, at this mileage is COMMON for BMW engines to leak significant oil. We see it frequently.

Now, having owned about 5 different BMWs over the years, as well as some competitive brands, I can honestly say I've never experienced any significant oil leaks at any mileage with those other cars, much less the catastrophic seal failure(s) that have begun on this x5. My recollection is manufacturers learned how to competently seal simple things like valve covers about 40 years ago.

Of course, I've called the dealer out a bit on that comment/position. As a degreed mechanical engineer and a car enthusiast, there is no way you can convince me that in this day and age MULTIPLE seal and gasket leaks at such a young age and mileage, especially after receiving ALL proper Prescribed maintance, can be considered reasonable. Forget about the concepts we all love to believe about BMW, like any degree of design or manufacturing excellence.

So here's the question:

If the statement is true, and failures like this are expected just after warranty, how can anyone argue in support of BMW design/manufacturing quality.

If the statement is untrue, why would you want to try and give consumers that impression about your brand?

Either way, how does that position help the brand image with the consumer? or is that now sadly the new level of BMW quality?

It is not a true statement and the SA is doing what so many do so naturally, lie, lie, lie.

ProRail 12-05-2012 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clinkinfo (Post 7224260)
So long story short, an 08 4.8 x5 has developed 4 significant oil leaks at 58000 miles. Specifically, the valve cover, the vacuum pump, the oil switch, and the upper left timing case cover are all leaking oil.

The leaks are significant enough to be dripping oil out onto the ground.

After some conversations with the dealer and BMWNA, the dealer began to try and take the IMO odd position that (paraphrasing):

Well, at this mileage is COMMON for BMW engines to leak significant oil. We see it frequently.

Now, having owned about 5 different BMWs over the years, as well as some competitive brands, I can honestly say I've never experienced any significant oil leaks at any mileage with those other cars, much less the catastrophic seal failure(s) that have begun on this x5. My recollection is manufacturers learned how to competently seal simple things like valve covers about 40 years ago.

Of course, I've called the dealer out a bit on that comment/position. As a degreed mechanical engineer and a car enthusiast, there is no way you can convince me that in this day and age MULTIPLE seal and gasket leaks at such a young age and mileage, especially after receiving ALL proper Prescribed maintance, can be considered reasonable. Forget about the concepts we all love to believe about BMW, like any degree of design or manufacturing excellence.

So here's the question:

If the statement is true, and failures like this are expected just after warranty, how can anyone argue in support of BMW design/manufacturing quality.

If the statement is untrue, why would you want to try and give consumers that impression about your brand?

Either way, how does that position help the brand image with the consumer? or is that now sadly the new level of BMW quality?

Nope. My 1999 528 uses NO oil between 10-13K changes. You may have a lemon. (Sorry. I apparently responded earlier. Don't know why this post came up again.)

clinkinfo 12-21-2012 11:36 AM

Just a quick update, 2 dealers and BMW North America have held firm that multiple oil leaks are in fact reasonably common and more importantly, acceptable, at 58,000 miles. They have All diagnosed the same leaks identified in the initial post and they will not provide any goodwill assistance towards repair, partial or whole.

I have appealed as high as I can go, and I have spoken to everyone I can at both dealerships. There is no budging by anyone.

I have to say, I'm surprised and disappointed.

usaret 12-21-2012 12:30 PM

My 2009 X3 with N52 engine developed a weep of gasket number 5 (more of an "O" ring) fairly early on but off warranty.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/j/j/315.png

I changed it myself in conjuction with an oil and antifreeze change. The E Torx socket set cost more than the gasket. In a total of almost 102,000 miles it's the only issue I've had with the car.

mr29 12-21-2012 04:51 PM

threaten to contact your local news channel. i did this to a dealer who lied on my car application when i was young in order to get me approved for a car loan. they quickly fixed the issue by buying the car back and paying my loan off in full. only way some people will listen is when you can affect their money income

Sent from my XT557 using Bimmer App

x3brian 12-24-2012 03:57 PM

That's irratating but it somewhat confirms the estimated life listed on this article for vanos seal replacement.

http://www.beisansystems.com/procedu..._procedure.htm

That's just BMW saying "yeah we know it can happen".

Sorry man...the good thing though as a community us bmw folks will help you through it. This isn't a hard DIY.

fivepointnine 12-24-2012 09:03 PM

my X3 has had relatively poor reliablity, the CCV system failed at 63k miles!!!!!! also had a hold on the intake boot at that mileage. Valve cover gasket started dumping oil at 72k miles. front control arms had to be replaced due to worn bushings at 80k miles. These are problems that should not show up until 100k miles or more on a non-BMW. My Mercedes CLK500 is rock solid at 75k miles, only a burned out light bulb!


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