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-   -   shifting issue/wrong atf? (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661780)

Shaske87 12-02-2012 03:22 PM

shifting issue/wrong atf?
 
I've been trying to figure this issue out for a while now with no luck. About two weeks ago I was going down the freeway and hit a metal shard and sliced my drivers side front tire and transmission oil pan. So lost all the fluid and had to be towed home. Replaced pan and refilled with dextron 3 like the big green sticker says. Now driving down the road it doesn't slip in any gear. The issue is during the gear shifts it revs up 500 to 1000 then drops and accerates normal. Fluid level is good. Does this warm and cold. I refilled the transmission correctly. Slim not sure if maybe the newer fluid is to blame or something else was hit that would cause this. My car is a 95 525i automatic. Has 220k on motor and body. Transmission has 110k

robertobaggio20 12-02-2012 05:52 PM

This is quite common. Your tranny is old, and the clutches are worn. Old fluid has become thick with wear and tear and thus compensates for worn clutches. New fluid is too thin, and worn clutches tend to slip during shifting.

The alternate explanation would be that the internal parts of the transmission, the oil passages and oil pumping mechanisms, have become too large from pumping around thicker fluid, to accommodate new thinner fluid. This is a form of damage.

The mechanical reason for this is still out there, but basically, the problem manifests when you change to new fluid, on an old transmission.

The solution is to replace your oil with thicker but new tranny oil. Either royal purple or valvoline has got a product called high mileage transmission oil. Use that. And after that, please do report your results back here.

I'm sorry, I know that this is going to be an expensive experiment, but someone here had the same problem, did the above, and fixed it that way. Please give that a shot. Your alternative would be to get a used tranny or rebuild your existing one, both of which are expensive affairs. [Since you've got a near classic car, you might want to consider a rebuild if you intend to keep her for the long term. ]

For good measure, before you change the oil, do the following :

1. Clean out your throttle position sensor. Use contact cleaner on the sensor and its socket, use a toothbrush to clean the contacts, apply dieletric grease and fix it back.

2. Delete all your error codes. Unclamp both your main and transmission ecu. Wait a few minutes, then reclamp them back. Start the car and let it idle with no throttle feathering, for around 10 minutes. Then go for a drive.

3. If the above two methods executed in sequence fail, then you've gotta try the high mileage tranny oil. You can keep your existing oil filter (assuming you changed it together with the new dex3 oil you just put in). Transmission oils are compatible with each other, so don't worry about flushing etc.


Please keep us updated about your progress. Thanks.

Shaske87 12-02-2012 08:01 PM

Thank you for the advice. When I get home I will try the first two and let you guys know what happens.

snowsled7 12-03-2012 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaske87 (Post 7226938)
I've been trying to figure this issue out for a while now with no luck. About two weeks ago I was going down the freeway and hit a metal shard and sliced my drivers side front tire and transmission oil pan. So lost all the fluid and had to be towed home. Replaced pan and refilled with dextron 3 like the big green sticker says. Now driving down the road it doesn't slip in any gear. The issue is during the gear shifts it revs up 500 to 1000 then drops and accerates normal. Fluid level is good. Does this warm and cold. I refilled the transmission correctly. Slim not sure if maybe the newer fluid is to blame or something else was hit that would cause this. My car is a 95 525i automatic. Has 220k on motor and body. Transmission has 110k


It sounds like low fluid level to me.

If you are sure the fluid level is perfectly correct, then it is possible the trans was physically damaged by the road debris. If there was enough force to poke a hole in the pan maybe the valve body took a hit. This is the cast alum part that you see whith the trans pan off. This is the main control for shifting, even the slightest crack or leak could cause poor shifting.

I have NO faith in the notion that adding new, correct, replacement fluid is the cause of your problem because it is too thin. I wouldn't bother with high milage mechanic in a bottle, it is highly unlikely it will fix your car.

BMWFatherFigure 12-03-2012 06:45 AM

Also did you service the tranny while the pan was off, adjusting the clutches etc? Would have been the ideal time. +1 on cracks and also (?) damaged or bent actuators and rods.

robertobaggio20 12-03-2012 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowsled7 (Post 7227883)
It sounds like low fluid level to me.

If you are sure the fluid level is perfectly correct, then it is possible the trans was physically damaged by the road debris. If there was enough force to poke a hole in the pan maybe the valve body took a hit. This is the cast alum part that you see whith the trans pan off. This is the main control for shifting, even the slightest crack or leak could cause poor shifting.

I have NO faith in the notion that adding new, correct, replacement fluid is the cause of your problem because it is too thin. I wouldn't bother with high milage mechanic in a bottle, it is highly unlikely it will fix your car.

High mileage tranny oil from multi million dollar brand name oil companies are most certainly not a "mechanic in a bottle" products and there is nothing overtly wrong with mechanic in a bottle situations, if actual mechanics such as Scotty Kilmer are prepared to advocate them in public in for appropriate situations. Obviously, such products will never be equal to a direct repair, but they solve the problem in enough situations to have proven their worth.

And we have seen situations on these forums where people with no prior damage to their transmissions, encountered gear slippage immediately after changing to new oil of the correct rating, and filled correctly according to the manual. Most of them posted here and disappeared without stating how they fixed it, but one german dude who specialised in buying E34s cheap from returning US servicemen and then selling it off at a profit, had this same problem with one of his cars and fixed it by switching to RP's high mileage tranny oil. He was one happy dude. That was over a year ago.

Anyway, the classic quick and dirty way to test if your have insufficient tranny fluid is as follows. Shift to D and accelerate to 30 mph and hit the brakes very hard...an e brake. When the car stops fully, release the brakes immediately and do not tap on the accelerator. Watch for how long the car takes to move forward. It should only take 1-3 seconds. If it takes something like 10 seconds, or an inordinately long period of time, you've got too little fluid.

The hard brake causes all the fluid to rush to the front of the transmission. It takes a few seconds to flow back to the back. The tcm will not let the transmission engage until it detects oil at the back of the tranny (or something like that). Its a fail safe. If there is too little oil, there will be nothing left at the back of the tranny when you hit the brakes. If you have enough oil, this will not be a problem.

robertobaggio20 12-03-2012 08:29 AM

1 Attachment(s)
OP, the attached tables might help you get better visibility on this issue.

snowsled7 12-03-2012 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robertobaggio20 (Post 7227937)
High mileage tranny oil from multi million dollar brand name oil companies are most certainly not a "mechanic in a bottle" products and there is nothing overtly wrong with mechanic in a bottle situations, if actual mechanics such as Scotty Kilmer are prepared to advocate them in public in for appropriate situations. Obviously, such products will never be equal to a direct repair, but they solve the problem in enough situations to have proven their worth.

So explain to me their worth when you admit in the same paragraph that it is not the same as a "direct repair".

Opinions vary on the validity of oil companies marketing claims. They have been suing each other for lying for decades. Accept the the claims they make at your own risk. Expect that the $100 you drop on trans fluid is most likely not going to fix the car, spend accordingly I say.

Quote:

And we have seen situations on these forums where people with no prior damage to their transmissions, encountered gear slippage immediately after changing to new oil of the correct rating, and filled correctly according to the manual. Most of them posted here and disappeared without stating how they fixed it, but one german dude who specialised in buying E34s cheap from returning US servicemen and then selling it off at a profit, had this same problem with one of his cars and fixed it by switching to RP's high mileage tranny oil. He was one happy dude. That was over a year ago.
Very compelling evidence:rolleyes:

Quote:

Anyway, the classic quick and dirty way to test if your have insufficient tranny fluid is as follows. Shift to D and accelerate to 30 mph and hit the brakes very hard...an e brake. When the car stops fully, release the brakes immediately and do not tap on the accelerator. Watch for how long the car takes to move forward. It should only take 1-3 seconds. If it takes something like 10 seconds, or an inordinately long period of time, you've got too little fluid.

The hard brake causes all the fluid to rush to the front of the transmission. It takes a few seconds to flow back to the back. The tcm will not let the transmission engage until it detects oil at the back of the tranny (or something like that). Its a fail safe. If there is too little oil, there will be nothing left at the back of the tranny when you hit the brakes. If you have enough oil, this will not be a problem.
More very scientific evidence that will tell you exactly nothing, except that your fluid may be REALLY low.

robertobaggio20 12-03-2012 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowsled7 (Post 7228358)
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertobaggio20
High mileage tranny oil from multi million dollar brand name oil companies are most certainly not a "mechanic in a bottle" products and there is nothing overtly wrong with mechanic in a bottle situations, if actual mechanics such as Scotty Kilmer are prepared to advocate them in public in for appropriate situations. Obviously, such products will never be equal to a direct repair, but they solve the problem in enough situations to have proven their worth.

So explain to me their worth when you admit in the same paragraph that it is not the same as a "direct repair".

You can ask scotty kilmer. I'm sure he promotes things that are totally useless and have zero benefit in all situations.


Quote:

Originally Posted by snowsled7 (Post 7228358)

Opinions vary on the validity of oil companies marketing claims. They have been suing each other for lying for decades. Accept the the claims they make at your own risk. Expect that the $100 you drop on trans fluid is most likely not going to fix the car, spend accordingly I say.


I have a mechanic who says that this (new oil causing slippage in an old transmission right after an oil change) might be possible. He has seen it happen. His theory is that the old oil was left in there for way too long before being changed, thickened too significantly, the tranny generated damage in trying to pump thicker oil around, and now cannot function with thinner oil. He feels that its not because of worn clutches that were being compensated for by the thicker old oil.

The point ???? He has noticed this exact same problem before, that of slippage right after an oil change, despite using only oem fluids and filling transmissions properly. His solution for his customers of course was to replace the transmission. He is not a forum member clearly. :)


Quote:

Originally Posted by snowsled7 (Post 7228358)


Quote:
And we have seen situations on these forums where people with no prior damage to their transmissions, encountered gear slippage immediately after changing to new oil of the correct rating, and filled correctly according to the manual. Most of them posted here and disappeared without stating how they fixed it, but one german dude who specialised in buying E34s cheap from returning US servicemen and then selling it off at a profit, had this same problem with one of his cars and fixed it by switching to RP's high mileage tranny oil. He was one happy dude. That was over a year ago.

Very compelling evidence

Of course, nothing on these forums is worth anything if it challenges one's superstitions. :)


Quote:

Originally Posted by snowsled7 (Post 7228358)

Quote:
Anyway, the classic quick and dirty way to test if your have insufficient tranny fluid is as follows. Shift to D and accelerate to 30 mph and hit the brakes very hard...an e brake. When the car stops fully, release the brakes immediately and do not tap on the accelerator. Watch for how long the car takes to move forward. It should only take 1-3 seconds. If it takes something like 10 seconds, or an inordinately long period of time, you've got too little fluid.

The hard brake causes all the fluid to rush to the front of the transmission. It takes a few seconds to flow back to the back. The tcm will not let the transmission engage until it detects oil at the back of the tranny (or something like that). Its a fail safe. If there is too little oil, there will be nothing left at the back of the tranny when you hit the brakes. If you have enough oil, this will not be a problem.

More very scientific evidence that will tell you exactly nothing, except that your fluid may be REALLY low.

Ermmm.....that was kinda the point here ? :rofl:

snowsled7 12-03-2012 03:03 PM

I have no idea who scotty kilmer is, nor why I should care?

The mechanic trans theory is humorous at best. I suspect you made it up anyway. The stuff described simply does not happen, even if it was his theory:rolleyes:

The fluid level is OK per the OP, it has been suggested repeatedly that he check it. I would reccomend the method in the Bentley manual over some sort of silly panic stop trans fluid check.... unless you follow up with your italian tune-up:rofl:

robertobaggio20 12-03-2012 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowsled7 (Post 7228762)
I have no idea who scotty kilmer is, nor why I should care?

The mechanic trans theory is humorous at best. I suspect you made it up anyway. The stuff described simply does not happen, even if it was his theory:rolleyes:

The fluid level is OK per the OP, it has been suggested repeatedly that he check it. I would reccomend the method in the Bentley manual over some sort of silly panic stop trans fluid check.... unless you follow up with your italian tune-up:rofl:

Of course you shouldn't care, and of course contrarian evidence posted by others must be made up. Sorry, I forgot, my bad.

OP, you should check your fluid. Jesus, you have a 318. So you should be using a 4hp22 tranny. It has a dipstick. Check the levels when its cold, and when the car is hot (after having driven the car for at least 15 minutes). It must be within the dipstick's indicators in both situations.

If not.....you know what you have to do.

BMR_LVR 12-03-2012 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robertobaggio20 (Post 7228837)
Of course you shouldn't care, and of course contrarian evidence posted by others must be made up. Sorry, I forgot, my bad.

OP, you should check your fluid. Jesus, you have a 318. So you should be using a 4hp22 tranny. It has a dipstick. Check the levels when its cold, and when the car is hot (after having driven the car for at least 15 minutes). It must be within the dipstick's indicators in both situations.

If not.....you know what you have to do.

The OP says it is a 95 525 auto.

I agree that the first step is to ensure that it has the proper level of fluid (done per the Bentley manual instructions).

Shaske87 12-03-2012 04:30 PM

So cleaned up the connections and unplugged the computers. Reconnected them and let the car idle. Took it for a drive and there was an improvement. The first shift is perfect. The second and third still Rev a bit. Instead of reving 500 to 1000 it only does about 200 to 500 on hard acceleration and on normal driving shifts fine. So that process helped quite a bit. I'm tempted to put a bottle of lucus into to see if that helps that last bit. Or would something else be better than that?

Shaske87 12-03-2012 04:53 PM

Fluid level is good. The process I used to refill and check as far as I know is supose to be correct. I filled it until it started folding out the hole. Started the car. Ran through all the gear 10 times holding at each gear for 5 seconds. Then topped off fluid again. I then let the car idle for 30mins to get the tranny at normal operating tempature. Then ran through the gears 10 more times. Topped it off until there Was a small amount coming out the hole then sealed it. If it did the process wrong please say so.

BMR_LVR 12-03-2012 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaske87 (Post 7228949)
Fluid level is good. The process I used to refill and check as far as I know is supose to be correct. I filled it until it started folding out the hole. Started the car. Ran through all the gear 10 times holding at each gear for 5 seconds. Then topped off fluid again. I then let the car idle for 30mins to get the tranny at normal operating tempature. Then ran through the gears 10 more times. Topped it off until there Was a small amount coming out the hole then sealed it. If it did the process wrong please say so.

Sounds like you did the process properly as long as the transmission temperature was within the specified temperature range (86-131F). I use a laser temp reader on the transmission pan to determine this.

The other thing is that the trans filter may be somewhat clogged. If nothing else works, you can try a new filter and fluid. I know some say that is a bad idea, but I personally think it is a good idea. I service my transmission every 25K miles. Plus, if nothing else works, it is worth a try if the last resort is a rebuild.

Edit: Did you put in a new filter when you replaced the banged up pan?

robertobaggio20 12-03-2012 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaske87 (Post 7228908)
So cleaned up the connections and unplugged the computers. Reconnected them and let the car idle. Took it for a drive and there was an improvement. The first shift is perfect. The second and third still Rev a bit. Instead of reving 500 to 1000 it only does about 200 to 500 on hard acceleration and on normal driving shifts fine. So that process helped quite a bit. I'm tempted to put a bottle of lucus into to see if that helps that last bit. Or would something else be better than that?

Drive it for a few more days and see how it behaves

Your fill procedure is correct....a little bit of an overkill but that never hurt :).
Meanwhile look for a friction modifier...a thickening agent.

When the car revs up and then shifts, do you get a hard shift or a smooth one ?

Cogitating on your reports further, i suspect that your throttle position sensor might be due for a replacement. Test resistances according to bentley both when the engine is hot and cold and see if you find anything off. Good luck.

Shaske87 12-03-2012 05:51 PM

When it shifts during the Rev it goes into the gears smoothly. Doesn't slam into gear or anything. Gonna test the tps in a few hours. Volt meter has dead battery. LOL. At the same time I'm gonna look at some friction modifiers. Probably gonna get lucus brand unless there is a better recommendation.

Shaske87 12-03-2012 06:17 PM

The filter i didn't change with the pan. It didn't look damaged and it only has like 15k on it. I replaced it when I put the transmission in a few months ago. I used the original fluid it had since at the time I had been told to keep it because of the material in it.

BMR_LVR 12-03-2012 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaske87 (Post 7229113)
The filter i didn't change with the pan. It didn't look damaged and it only has like 15k on it. I replaced it when I put the transmission in a few months ago. I used the original fluid it had since at the time I had been told to keep it because of the material in it.

Ok. That effectively rules out a clogged filter. Personally, I don't go along with the theory about problems coming from new fluid, but that's just me.

I agree that Lucas additive would probably be appropriate at this point. I hope you don't wind up needing a rebuild.

I wish you the best of luck and hope you get it straightened out.

robertobaggio20 12-03-2012 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaske87 (Post 7229113)
The filter i didn't change with the pan. It didn't look damaged and it only has like 15k on it. I replaced it when I put the transmission in a few months ago. I used the original fluid it had since at the time I had been told to keep it because of the material in it.



What material are you referring to ? Please let us know everything you can remember about what you were told when you put in the tranny.

And unless youve checked the oil and found it to be good, you should change it out whenever you replace a transmission. It sounds like the yard anticipated the exact problem you have right now.

Shaske87 12-06-2012 04:56 PM

So drove it around with a bottle of Lucia in the tranny with no change in the shifting. Did notice however my torque converter seems to be dying. At idle its making a ticking noise similar to a valve tick but coming from the torque converter. So thinking that is the sorce to my shifting issue.

robertobaggio20 12-06-2012 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaske87 (Post 7235119)
So drove it around with a bottle of Lucia in the tranny with no change in the shifting. Did notice however my torque converter seems to be dying. At idle its making a ticking noise similar to a valve tick but coming from the torque converter. So thinking that is the sorce to my shifting issue.

Could once again be related to oil that is too thin for the tranny in its current state. The smoking gun is that all these problems happened right after you changed the oil.

Please post a direct link to the lucas product that you used ? Thanks.


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