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-   -   So is the general feeling that you shouldn't own a BMW out of warranty? (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663169)

BentZero 12-09-2012 08:59 PM

So is the general feeling that you shouldn't own a BMW out of warranty?
 
I've been lurking for awhile and more often than not people have said that owning a BMW outside of warranty is a bad idea. I've owned Japanese cars all of my life and I'm spoiled by their reliability. I love a fun driving car as much as the next guy. I also fall in love with my cars and tend to hold on to them.

However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.

(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks :p).

ChrisF01 12-09-2012 09:56 PM

There are pros and cons to every make.

Japanese tend to be more reliable (not so much mazda from what I hear), but they're boring or underpowered, the GT-R/LFA would be the exception.

Domestic are getting their act together (interior materials, fit and finish, etc), though their dealer network is terrible. I absolutely love my '12 300SRT, but all the dealers near me are complete garbage and I'll never own another domestic after this car. Car has been bulletproof, same with my '08 Charger SRT8 before I traded it in, as well as my Jeep, Tahoe and Silverado. Only have to do oil changes and tire rotations. Though I did replace the shocks on my Silverado at 120k recently, but it was shipped to Hawaii and back. And I suspect that was the culprit.

German tend to be higher maintenance, and lesser reliable; But the offset is that they're at the top for fit and finish, driving dynamics, quality, and dealer network (for me anyways - mine near me is awesome). If I had to keep a car for 10 years, I'd still get a German car. I will never go back, I'd just have to make sure I keep it very well maintained, do proactive maintenance like more frequent than 15k oil changes :rolleyes:

hans007 12-09-2012 10:09 PM

i don tthink BMW in particular is that bad , i know several people with BMWs well out of warranty that are running fine. the main thing is parts and filters and such cost a little more than say an acura.

I wouldn't own a VW / audi out of warranty (hell i will never own one again....) but I know the lower tier cars for BMW are generally more reliable. my dad has a 2004 X3 with 130k miles on it, and it has been super reliable. Had a roomate with a 1990 525i with 190k miles and it ran fine too nothing ever crazy happened to them that wouldn't happen to any other car that age.

bennyg1 12-09-2012 10:56 PM

Buy old car, maybe have to fork out a bit for repairs, possibly if you buy bad get ripped off you'll need to fork out a lot

Buy new car you might buy a lemon, very slight chance though, but you certainly will do a massive chunk of your money in depreciation and maybe more with finance.

I have paid an extra 50% of the purchase price in 6 weeks for my 19 yr old 540i, in transfer fees/stamp duty, insurance, and various repairs (fuel pump, p/s flush due to incorrect fluid, engine and tranny mounts which some douche mechanic ought to lose accreditation over (should not have passed roadworthy cert for sale), and theres a bit of shimmy which will need some steering bits in 6mo or so... but I budgeted for more so am not worried yet. I think people get excited thinking they bought a $1k or $5k BMW and then get a nasty surprise about what follows that theyre not prepared for.

tturedraider 12-09-2012 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BentZero (Post 7240147)
I've been lurking for awhile and more often than not people have said that owning a BMW outside of warranty is a bad idea. I've owned Japanese cars all of my life and I'm spoiled by their reliability. I love a fun driving car as much as the next guy. I also fall in love with my cars and tend to hold on to them.

However, I absolutely hate having to take time out of my day to deal with automotive repairs. I'm assuming that warning against owning outside of warranty is due to the fact that there will be more than a few repairs to deal with.

(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks :p).

I don't think so. You should ask this question in the E46 forum.

av98 12-10-2012 04:46 AM

As an E46 ZHP owner it really depends on your comfort level with working on your cars vs cost. I average $3k a year in total cost for maintenance out of warranty; combination of Indy mechanic + DIY (really depends if I have time to get away from our 3 kids [16 month old twin girls are lots of work] + house chores). This includes tires, brakes, etc but I do average 20K a year which is higher than most, considering my rear tires only last a year and account for 1/4 of that cost.

So cost of maintenance out of warranty really depends on mileage driven (the lower the cheaper it is), DIY skills and also type of car. Most BMW owners usually put aside about $2-3K a year for general maintenance.

Hope this helps.

Bob Shiftright 12-10-2012 05:20 AM

"So is the general feeling that you shouldn't own a BMW out of warranty?"
 
Like everything, "It all depends". If you want a 2002, the only way to drive one is to buy one that's out of warranty. :D

The BMW mechanical stuff doesn't bother me (well, not too much). But the electronics took a step forward (or backward) in complexity and serviceability from the E46 to the E9x.

My E91 has had multiple electronic poltergeists and required several software updates and reprogramming. That's difficult to do without visiting the dealer.

(Since the F31 will not be available in the US with a manual transmission, I won't buy one -- and I have mixed feelings about that. The E91 is a lot of fun to drive. The maintenance issues have been an annoyance, however. I may go Japanese for my next DD, just so long as I can get my manual transmission fix.)

SilverX3 12-10-2012 05:57 AM

BMW = Been (to) Most Worshop : there it explains your question

For me

BMW = Be My Woman.... And I love the brand just like I love my woman

My neighbour drives a Mitsubishi... He said BMW = Big Mother Wa...Ker

Si diff people diff view

beden1 12-10-2012 06:23 AM

In SE PA where I live, I see older BMWs driving on the roads everywhere I look, so many people apparently do keep their cars out of warranty.

krash 12-10-2012 06:30 AM

Ever own a Chevy or a Volvo out of warranty?

Tears. Lots of tears.

boltjaM3s 12-10-2012 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BentZero (Post 7240147)

(Patiently awaiting BJ's condescending remarks :p).

Not going to be condescending as its Christmas and my daughter's Elf On The Shelf is watching.

Answer these three questions:

1. How much of a monthly payment can you afford comfortably?

2. Is your job upwardly mobile during the next 6 years?

3. Is self-respect and a successful outlook important to you?

BJ

JoeFromPA 12-10-2012 06:43 AM

I think it's more important to say:

Are you so lazy and uninformed that you must take your out of warranty BMW to a BMW dealership? If so, then don't own a BMW out of warranty.

If you enjoy some basic DIY and have a good indy BMW specialist, then it's no big deal.

From a financial viewpoint: I spend less per year to maintain a 11 year old M5 (one of the most expensive BMWs to own) than most people in the f30 forum spend each year paying for depreciation.

So alot of people who want their newer car warranty to avoid a sudden financial stress are actually paying more in their cars lost value each year than they would if they simply accepted an out of warranty car.

Joe

P.s. I've owned my m5 for 12k miles and it's rolling over 115k miles. I've spent ~$1800 so far, including about $1200 as soon as I bought it to replace the worn parts identified in my pre purchase inspection. Since then, it's been quite a fine ride.

Jamesonsviggen 12-10-2012 07:00 AM

I love and trust my '98. It's been very reliable.

I would not own my '13 or any BMW within the past 10 years or so without a warranty.

beden1 12-10-2012 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen (Post 7240562)
I love and trust my '98. It's been very reliable.

I would not own my '13 or any BMW within the past 10 years or so without a warranty.

Please explain why.

Daedalus34r 12-10-2012 07:21 AM

European cars in general will be more expensive to maintain because of parts cost and labor rates. My E46 has only needed repairs for systems that were known to be problematic (like the cooling system). Everythign else has just been wear and tear stuff, tires, brakes, oil changes, etc. It has been wonderfully reliable and i plan to keep it for a long time. Averages to maybe $1.5k a year in maintenance and repairs. Not that bad at all compared to the cost of a new car.

I feel like people give bimmers a bad rep cuz they do this:

1) buy a used car just outside of warranty (50k+ miles)
2) not understand that a used car outside of warranty will be at that mileage where things need to be replaced.
3) perform maintenance and repairs and whine about it to everyone and the internet.
4) not realize that the significant upfront repair cost at the mileage (just after purchase) will be followed by a long period of basic wear and tear parts replacement so in the long run the cost of ownership will average out and reduce.
5) people think bmw's are bad to own outside of warranty.

Alpine300ZHP 12-10-2012 07:25 AM

I have owned several BMW's out of warranty and my opinion is that it is always cheaper to own a car out of warranty than to keep buying or leasing a new car every 3 years or 50k miles. The problem, from my vantage point, is that many people go out of warranty and expect the car to run forever with no money put into it in terms of preventative maintainance or repairs. My experience has been that a problematic BMW will show its true colors long before the warranty ends (this has happened to me) and if that is the case dump it. If you get a good BMW then it will go 200k miles with proper care. It boils down to this...if you are a monthly payment driver with nothing else left over after you pay your bills then you should not drive a BMW out of warranty. This person should just lease so there is nothing unexpected. If you are financially secure and can handle an occasional 1k repair bill then you will save money keeping the car until it is somewhere between 120k - 200k miles. Lastly, I do not subscribe to the BMW service schedule for cars I am keeping past the warranty date and I have my own modified schedule that I follow and is primarily based on Mike Miller recommendations and my own personal experience.

Alpine300ZHP 12-10-2012 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daedalus34r (Post 7240590)
European cars in general will be more expensive to maintain because of parts cost and labor rates. My E46 has only needed repairs for systems that were known to be problematic (like the cooling system). Everythign else has just been wear and tear stuff, tires, brakes, oil changes, etc. It has been wonderfully reliable and i plan to keep it for a long time. Averages to maybe $1.5k a year in maintenance and repairs. Not that bad at all compared to the cost of a new car.

I feel like people give bimmers a bad rep cuz they do this:

1) buy a used car just outside of warranty (50k+ miles)
2) not understand that a used car outside of warranty will be at that mileage where things need to be replaced.
3) perform maintenance and repairs and whine about it to everyone and the internet.
4) not realize that the significant upfront repair cost at the mileage (just after purchase) will be followed by a long period of basic wear and tear parts replacement so in the long run the cost of ownership will average out and reduce.
5) people think bmw's are bad to own outside of warranty.

You are right. You said it better than I did.

Alpine300ZHP 12-10-2012 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by av98 (Post 7240412)
As an E46 ZHP owner it really depends on your comfort level with working on your cars vs cost. I average $3k a year in total cost for maintenance out of warranty; combination of Indy mechanic + DIY (really depends if I have time to get away from our 3 kids [16 month old twin girls are lots of work] + house chores). This includes tires, brakes, etc but I do average 20K a year which is higher than most, considering my rear tires only last a year and account for 1/4 of that cost.

So cost of maintenance out of warranty really depends on mileage driven (the lower the cheaper it is), DIY skills and also type of car. Most BMW owners usually put aside about $2-3K a year for general maintenance.

Hope this helps.

I agree with your numbers. 2-3k a year including maintainance costs is cheap considering that these are BMW's. That is about 250-300 bucks a month and you cannot lease any modern BMW for an amount close to that number.

JoeFromPA 12-10-2012 07:38 AM

Gonna chime in on the recent comments about Mike Miller's schedule. I used to be a huge proponent of that schedule and felt that BMW was sacrificing long-term owners (or owners of older BMWs) by switching to their "maintenance free!" schedule. And I'm a big oil analysis guy who watches closely the results.

While I don't believe the infrequent lubricant changes are good for the car, the fact is that we have plenty of high performance, high mileage, hard used BMWs now going on 10 years after the longer maintenance intervals were introduced. We are not observing a huge spike in failed engines, failed transmissions, or failed differentials. Cooling systems in the more recent BMWs are performing at the same rates as ones in the 90s and early 2000s were (which was not great, even with more frequent maintenance).

I have seen more BMWs with dirty engines, no doubt. But, for whatever it's worth, BMW seemed to hit the mark on less frequent maintenance - it didn't destroy their cars reliability.

I would not hesitate to own an Naturally aspirated BMW made in the last 10 years provided it passed a thorough pre-purchase inspection and showed signs of being well cared for (i.e. even treadwear, non-excessive suspension wear, smooth running engine and trans)

jfox335i 12-10-2012 07:51 AM

I would own a BMW out of warranty, but would prefer to have one "in warranty". I would be hesitant to own an Audi/Porsche out of warranty.

Lorenzzo 12-10-2012 07:57 AM

Interesting as to how polarized the perspectives are with DIY types seemingly confident out of warranty. Makes me want to get a fun BMW out of warranty I appreciated in the past.

As to the more complicated electronics, at first I figured it wouldn't be that different than keeping my home theatre running. But I guess we don't really know that yet.

beden1 12-10-2012 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfox335i (Post 7240636)
I would own a BMW out of warranty, but would prefer to have one "in warranty". I would be hesitant to own an Audi/Porsche out of warranty.

Porsche consistently gets very high marks for reliability, and similar threads like this in the Porsche Forum show minimal out-of-pocket expenses for used Porsche owners mostly for normal maintenance.

Lorenzzo 12-10-2012 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1 (Post 7240664)
Porsche consistently gets very high marks for reliability, and similar threads like this in the Porsche Forum show minimal out-of-pocket expenses for used Porsche owners mostly for normal maintenance.

Any particular recommendations as to models?

beden1 12-10-2012 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorenzzo (Post 7240666)
Any particular recommendations as to models?

www.rennlist.com

Go to water cooled model section and check the 911 or the Boxster/Cayman Forums. Search for reliability threads or register and post your question about reliability. That's what I did before I bought mine and I was really pleased that the Porsches held up very well.

The 997.2 (911 model) seems to be problem free. The 997.1 had a couple of issues. The Boxster and Caymans seem to be very good as well.

Most of the owners seem to change their own oil as the dealer price is over $300. Rear tires seem to need replacing quicker than the front tires and it looks like an average of 8,000 miles to replace the rear tires.

Jamesonsviggen 12-10-2012 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1 (Post 7240579)
Please explain why.

They have become very complicated in regards to electronics, require more and more dealer specific specialty software/computers and tools to fix, lots of plastic in things like the cooling system(even my '98 is guilty of this).

I like to fix my own cars once out of warranty, and the modern BMW's make that increasingly difficult.

I feel this way about pretty much all cars today.


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