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-   -   All of these "doesn't handle well enough" comments need some perspective (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=667379)

otonimus 01-01-2013 05:44 PM

All of these "doesn't handle well enough" comments need some perspective
 
The F30 may not handle with the same level of feel as previous 3's... And I'm not arguing that, as I'm certainly no BMW expert. This is my first 3 (sportline), and I haven't spent enough time with previous 3's to really have an opinion one way or another.

However, let's remember what it's still far better than:

My previous car, a 2004 Mazda 6s, which by all accounts handles far better than any Honda Accord or Toyota Camry, the cars with which it competes... and the F30 kills the Mazda 6S in handling, of course... So the F30 is supposed to be a big step up from this class of car, and it sure as hell is.

It's also way better than my 99 A4 2.8 was, with the Sport Package. And my dad's 2011 Jetta Diesel. And my friend's 2010 G37 sedan, and my other friend's 2008 E300. And my ex's 2004 Volvo S50. Spanks all of them. I could go on and on.

So anyone who is looking to step up from lesser handling cars of a similar size, fear not. This ain't no Accord with a nicer badge.

If you're looking for it to handle as well as your old 3, perhaps not... but that doesn't mean it's "vague" or "disconnected"... it's still one hell of a nice handling car.

Just 2 cents from someone who isn't as expert is these car as you are, and apparently happier with the F30 as a result :p:):):)

floydarogers 01-01-2013 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by otonimus (Post 7283396)
...If you're looking for it to handle as well as your old 3, perhaps not... but that doesn't mean it's "vague" or "disconnected"... it's still one hell of a nice handling car...

To add to that:
The latest Car&Driver is just out, with an update to their "Lightning Lap". One of the cars they tested was an F30 335i (sport package). The noted that "even with only the N55 300 hp engine, it was only 0.6s slower around VIR than the previous E90 335is with 320 hp. They absolutely loved the car - the easiest to handle car in this batch, and never a mention of EPS.

Oh, yes. The F30 had the 8 speed auto. Take that you manual cavemen.:bigpimp:

g37to335i 01-01-2013 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by otonimus (Post 7283396)
The F30 may not handle with the same level of feel as previous 3's... And I'm not arguing that, as I'm certainly no BMW expert. This is my first 3 (sportline), and I haven't spent enough time with previous 3's to really have an opinion one way or another.

However, let's remember what it's still far better than:

My previous car, a 2004 Mazda 6s, which by all accounts handles far better than any Honda Accord or Toyota Camry, the cars with which it competes... and the F30 kills the Mazda 6S in handling, of course... So the F30 is supposed to be a big step up from this class of car, and it sure as hell is.

It's also way better than my 99 A4 2.8 was, with the Sport Package. And my dad's 2011 Jetta Diesel. And my friend's 2010 G37 sedan, and my other friend's 2008 E300. And my ex's 2004 Volvo S50. Spanks all of them. I could go on and on.

So anyone who is looking to step up from lesser handling cars of a similar size, fear not. This ain't no Accord with a nicer badge.

If you're looking for it to handle as well as your old 3, perhaps not... but that doesn't mean it's "vague" or "disconnected"... it's still one hell of a nice handling car.

Just 2 cents from someone who isn't as expert is these car as you are, and apparently happier with the F30 as a result :p:):):)

Totally agree with you, my 335i m sport handles better than my G37. By most accounts the G37 is a great car in this segment. I have had 328i E90 loaners and I do not see any evidence of my 335i giving anything up in terms of handling.

boltjaM3s 01-01-2013 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by otonimus (Post 7283396)

If you're looking for it to handle as well as your old 3, perhaps not... but that doesn't mean it's "vague" or "disconnected"... it's still one hell of a nice handling car.

Just 2 cents from someone who isn't as expert is these car as you are, and apparently happier with the F30 as a result

Bravo.

Keep in mind, 99% of those even mentioning disappointment in handling own E90's, haven't test-driven an F30, and are just parroting what they've read in enthusiast magazines.

The F30 is a fantastic handling car, responds to steering command with precision, sticks to the road like glue, shifts like smooth lightning, torque's like a rocket, and pushes no road bumps or pothole feedback to the driver. It's an amazing car.

BJ

Elk 01-01-2013 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floydarogers (Post 7283501)
The latest Car&Driver is just out, with an update to their "Lightning Lap". One of the cars they tested was an F30 335i (sport package).

Keep in mind the F30 335's 3.13.2 time was bested by the lowly V-6, solid rear axle Ford Mustang at 3:12.5 and even the Chevy Cobalt SS at 3:13.0.

The F30 is a performance car if you have never driven anything with better handling or performance, a merely competent four-door if you have more experience.

Jamesonsviggen 01-01-2013 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elk (Post 7283672)
Keep in mind the F30 335's 3.13.2 time was bested by the lowly V-6, solid rear axle Ford Mustang at 3:12.5 and even the Chevy Cobalt SS at 3:13.0.

The F30 is a performance car if you have never driven anything with better handling or performance, a merely competent four-door if you have more experience.

The v6 Mustang had the shoes and suspension of the GT. The v6 is no longer a dog and is a 13 second car.

The Cobalt SS had the FWD record for the Ring for awhile and made its crank hp at the wheels.

Both cars not to be underestimated.

otonimus 01-01-2013 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elk (Post 7283672)
Keep in mind the F30 335's 3.13.2 time was bested by the lowly V-6, solid rear axle Ford Mustang at 3:12.5 and even the Chevy Cobalt SS at 3:13.0.

The F30 is a performance car if you have never driven anything with better handling or performance, a merely competent four-door if you have more experience.

Last time I checked this thread was about handling, not straight line performance.

But to your point, does a 2008 911 count? Got to drive one. Faster and better handling than the F30... but I don't see how that makes the F30 "merely competent", it certainly doesn't in my mind.

Zeichen311 01-01-2013 09:00 PM

: popcorn:

av98 01-01-2013 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by otonimus (Post 7283396)
The F30 may not handle with the same level of feel as previous 3's... And I'm not arguing that, as I'm certainly no BMW expert. This is my first 3 (sportline), and I haven't spent enough time with previous 3's to really have an opinion one way or another.

However, let's remember what it's still far better than:

My previous car, a 2004 Mazda 6s, which by all accounts handles far better than any Honda Accord or Toyota Camry, the cars with which it competes... and the F30 kills the Mazda 6S in handling, of course... So the F30 is supposed to be a big step up from this class of car, and it sure as hell is.

It's also way better than my 99 A4 2.8 was, with the Sport Package. And my dad's 2011 Jetta Diesel. And my friend's 2010 G37 sedan, and my other friend's 2008 E300. And my ex's 2004 Volvo S50. Spanks all of them. I could go on and on.

So anyone who is looking to step up from lesser handling cars of a similar size, fear not. This ain't no Accord with a nicer badge.

If you're looking for it to handle as well as your old 3, perhaps not... but that doesn't mean it's "vague" or "disconnected"... it's still one hell of a nice handling car.

Just 2 cents from someone who isn't as expert is these car as you are, and apparently happier with the F30 as a result :p:):):)

No argument here if you are coming from another brand. It's not even a close comparison. There's a reason why all the other car manufacturers chase the 3 series and use it as a benchmark.

Unfortunately, most of the people complaining are the previous owners of 3 series generations looking to upgrade into the latest and greatest. Most find that the current model is not worth upgrading into because they have been spoiled by the even better and greater whole package feel that the previous generations have made legendary. The previous generation 3 series was never the fastest from 0-60, on the track, 1/4 mile, skidpad, slalom, etc... I could go on and on and on about specs and comparisons. It was always considered a drivers car because it's precision of control and balance was unparalleled across all trims- base, sport, M models. It basically was so well designed starting from the chassis, suspension, brakes, engine, interior and exterior that the whole package is a benchmark for others to chase. The amount of driver input was never dulled, delayed or compromised as most are complaining with the new F30. It just seems the target market for this latest generation is more towards the main stream of drivers which drives the most volume of revenue and sales. Can't blame BMW, it's what makes Toyota and Honda lots of money. However, thank god they still provide options to get back to the previous 3 series whole package, higher percision, control with refinement benchmark; add BMW M performance parts. So they have achieved to get into the mainstream market while appeasing their enthusiast followers; even if it requires more customization than previously needed from their older generation 3 series. Just my 2 cents.

Now go customize or enjoy to your own content. :)

boltjaM3s 01-01-2013 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by otonimus (Post 7283704)
Last time I checked this thread was about handling, not straight line performance.

But to your point, does a 2008 911 count? Got to drive one. Faster and better handling than the F30... but I don't see how that makes the F30 "merely competent", it certainly doesn't in my mind.

I'll save you some time. Took me awhile to figure out that this isn't a BMW forum. It's a BMW enthusiasts forum, and there's the rub.

There are people who expect their German luxury cars to have a secondary purpose, to be a warrior on the track and back in the day the E36 was the perfect car for that. Looked great in the executive parking lot, was a beast on the weekends.

Many of these people (raises hand) grew up and like the fact that the 3 Series has grown up with them. We're not 25 anymore, need a car for 45 year olds now. And like us, the 3 Series is now more mature, larger, softer, more spacious, more luxurious. But a few of these people are stuck in 1995 and begrudge BMW for ruining their sporty weekend trackster. When the subject of Old BMW values vs. New BMW realities arises they throw up smokescreens and zany stats and make up stories about interior materials and popup screens and 0.00005ths of a second, and use buzzwords like "tradition" and "heritage" against the very brand they love.

There's no winning this battle. Run while you can. Create a thread about iPhone compatibility; no one argues over that. Know that Bimmerfest is a wonderful forum filled with great BMW aficionado's, but there are a few bad apples that aren't onboard with BMW's present and want to continually shove BMW's past down our throats as if we don't get it, as if we didn't own E36's and E46's and E90's and aren't smart enough to figure out what BMW is up to.

BMW makes a Roadster. BMW is working on a 1 Series Sedan. There are 1000's of quality E46's available for sale in every city in America. You'd think they'd figure it out by now.

BJ

boramkiv 01-01-2013 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elk (Post 7283672)
Keep in mind the F30 335's 3.13.2 time was bested by the lowly V-6, solid rear axle Ford Mustang at 3:12.5 and even the Chevy Cobalt SS at 3:13.0.

The F30 is a performance car if you have never driven anything with better handling or performance, a merely competent four-door if you have more experience.

Not to mention the F30 has four doors and the mustang is built from the ground up as two doors. The tested cobalt has 2 doors. Love it when people leave out important details especially when the say "solid rear axle". The mustang wants to be a 4 door with IRS like the F30 and will probably get that treatment in '14.

dtc100 01-01-2013 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s (Post 7283671)
Bravo.

Keep in mind, 99% of those even mentioning disappointment in handling own E90's, haven't test-driven an F30, and are just parroting what they've read in enthusiast magazines.

BJ

Nonsense, almost every one of the E90 drivers who are thinking of replacing, likely have driven an F30 by now:) Even you have continued to complain about your L328i's body roll.

CALWATERBOY 01-02-2013 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100 (Post 7283925)
Nonsense, almost every one of the E90 drivers who are thinking of replacing, likely have driven an F30 by now:) Even you have continued to complain about your L328i's body roll.


BMW continues it's drive toward comfort, contrast to M.

When's that M3 comin' on?

pony_trekker 01-02-2013 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s (Post 7283671)
Bravo.

Keep in mind, 99% of those even mentioning disappointment in handling own E90's, haven't test-driven an F30, and are just parroting what they've read in enthusiast magazines.

The F30 is a fantastic handling car, responds to steering command with precision, sticks to the road like glue, shifts like smooth lightning, torque's like a rocket, and pushes no road bumps or pothole feedback to the driver. It's an amazing car.

BJ

OK, you win. I will give it a chance.

You are right. I am b!tching about a car I haven't even driven. It's just that I love my E92 so . . .

But I did drive the current and previous generations of 5 series and hated them.

LegendsNeverDie 01-02-2013 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floydarogers (Post 7283501)
To add to that:
The latest Car&Driver is just out, with an update to their "Lightning Lap". One of the cars they tested was an F30 335i (sport package). The noted that "even with only the N55 300 hp engine, it was only 0.6s slower around VIR than the previous E90 335is with 320 hp. They absolutely loved the car - the easiest to handle car in this batch, and never a mention of EPS.

Oh, yes. The F30 had the 8 speed auto. Take that you manual cavemen.:bigpimp:

They also tested a 2007 335i Coupe on 08/2007 that posted a time of 3:10.5 vs 13:13.2 for the F30.

LegendsNeverDie 01-02-2013 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elk (Post 7283672)
Keep in mind the F30 335's 3.13.2 time was bested by the lowly V-6, solid rear axle Ford Mustang at 3:12.5 and even the Chevy Cobalt SS at 3:13.0.

The F30 is a performance car if you have never driven anything with better handling or performance, a merely competent four-door if you have more experience.

It is unreal to me how little credit such cars get and how well the perform and outperform the competition for the price.

gooer 01-02-2013 05:41 AM

The F30 is a great handling car. When I first received, I was a little disappointed by the slight "numbness" in the steering. However, after a month of driving I absolutely love how it drives. Going through a fast turn or a tight turn - the car is always where you want it to be. The lack of feel is an illusion, and makes the car more comfortable and luxurious to drive.

Michael Schott 01-02-2013 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pony_trekker (Post 7284058)
OK, you win. I will give it a chance.

You are right. I am b!tching about a car I haven't even driven. It's just that I love my E92 so . . .

But I did drive the current and previous generations of 5 series and hated them.

What were your expectations of the 5 series? A larger 3 series?

Ronin951 01-02-2013 06:33 AM

Go drive an a4 sport. Then go straight to BMW and drive an F30 sport. No comparison. I was actually set on an A4 based on paper/reviews. I left there disappointed and wanting to keep what I had, which I knew keeping wasn't an option. I then drove the F30 and couldn't wait to sell my ZHP. BMW tried to sell me the "drive it like it's stolen" experience. Audi tried to sell me gadgets that I'll never use.

Though I'll miss my e46 ZHP, the bone stock F30 annihilates the A4 and matched if not exceeded my e46, which has an aftermarket tire, brake, and suspension setup. My sales guy was also a DE instructor I had had in the past, so trust me we had a spirited test drive. Not just around the corner type of stuff. All I can say is go drive one. They may match other manufacturers on paper, but there's nothing llke a BMW on the market. Though, I admit I didn't drive a ATS.

If you're in the market for a new car. Go drive them and let your butt make the decision. Not some Car & Driver review, etc. Buy whichever you like the best and join their forums and enjoy your ride. That's what being an enthusiast is about....not brand loyalty or hearsay.

Edit: s/new/knew/

LegendsNeverDie 01-02-2013 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin951 (Post 7284154)
Go drive an a4 sport. Then go straight to BMW and drive an F30 sport. No comparison. I was actually set on an A4 based on paper/reviews. I left there disappointed and wanting to keep what I had, which I knew keeping wasn't an option. I then drove the F30 and couldn't wait to sell my ZHP. BMW tried to sell me the "drive it like it's stolen" experience. Audi tried to sell me gadgets that I'll never use.

Though I'll miss my e46 ZHP, the bone stock F30 annihilates the A4 and matched if not exceeded my e46, which has an aftermarket tire, brake, and suspension setup. My sales guy was also a DE instructor I had had in the past, so trust me we had a spirited test drive. Not just around the corner type of stuff. All I can say is go drive one. They may match other manufacturers on paper, but there's nothing llke a BMW on the market. Though, I admit I didn't drive a ATS.

If you're in the market for a new car. Go drive them and let your butt make the decision. Not some Car & Driver review, etc. Buy whichever you like the best and join their forums and enjoy your ride. That's what being an enthusiast is about....not brand loyalty or hearsay.

Edit: s/new/knew/

I spent some time behind the wheel of a B5 A4 Quattro and E46 330 ZHP and could not disagree with you more. The F30 is a luxury car compared to the two, both in technology and driving characteristics.

Jamesonsviggen 01-02-2013 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by av98 (Post 7283787)
No argument here if you are coming from another brand. It's not even a close comparison. There's a reason why all the other car manufacturers chase the 3 series and use it as a benchmark.

Unfortunately, most of the people complaining are the previous owners of 3 series generations looking to upgrade into the latest and greatest. Most find that the current model is not worth upgrading into because they have been spoiled by the even better and greater whole package feel that the previous generations have made legendary. The previous generation 3 series was never the fastest from 0-60, on the track, 1/4 mile, skidpad, slalom, etc... I could go on and on and on about specs and comparisons. It was always considered a drivers car because it's precision of control and balance was unparalleled across all trims- base, sport, M models. It basically was so well designed starting from the chassis, suspension, brakes, engine, interior and exterior that the whole package is a benchmark for others to chase. The amount of driver input was never dulled, delayed or compromised as most are complaining with the new F30. It just seems the target market for this latest generation is more towards the main stream of drivers which drives the most volume of revenue and sales. Can't blame BMW, it's what makes Toyota and Honda lots of money. However, thank god they still provide options to get back to the previous 3 series whole package, higher percision, control with refinement benchmark; add BMW M performance parts. So they have achieved to get into the mainstream market while appeasing their enthusiast followers; even if it requires more customization than previously needed from their older generation 3 series. Just my 2 cents.

Now go customize or enjoy to your own content. :)

You are talking about different things.

The F30 not being balanced because it loses some steering feel/feedback? No.

The F30 328 with SPORTS suspension is incredibly balanced. It feels light on it's feet(or nose), changes direction very well and has a controlled tossable feel that is just as good as the E90 ever was. Throw in the torque of the N20 to power out of turns and you have a great thing going. In terms of balance as in all the qualities that makes a sporty sedan, it took a little from column A but gained a lot in other columns.

So the F30 isn't unbalanced, or lost balance or however you were trying to paint it. It just has something different, and a bit less of a quality-steering feel than the E90.

There is such exaggeration round here sometimes, REDUCTION or DECREASE is not the same as NONE or NOTHING.

Ronin951 01-02-2013 07:42 AM

Though I've never driven one, I rode in a heavily mod'd B5 at VIR. I imagine stock it would definitely give a ZHP a run for its money. However, what I drove the other day was a B8.5.

Jamesonsviggen 01-02-2013 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin951 (Post 7284275)
Though I've never driven one, I rode in a heavily mod'd B5 at VIR. I imagine stock it would definitely give a ZHP a run for its money. However, what I drove the other day was a B8.5.

I still want a B5 s4 Avant 6mt in RS4 spec with bigger turbos. I love the idea of a low 12/high 11 second AWD wagon.

Buildbright 01-02-2013 08:45 AM

Tires. I dove a sportline on the track with high performance tires. The f30 was a beast but the thing you must remember is that these numbers were with a professional or highly skilled drivers. The average driver would show different numbers. Mustangs are hard to push to the limit with there solid axle. You can't just read numbers you must go out and find out for yourself.

Chris90 01-02-2013 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by otonimus (Post 7283396)
The F30 may not handle with the same level of feel as previous 3's... And I'm not arguing that, as I'm certainly no BMW expert. This is my first 3 (sportline), and I haven't spent enough time with previous 3's to really have an opinion one way or another.

However, let's remember what it's still far better than:

My previous car, a 2004 Mazda 6s, which by all accounts handles far better than any Honda Accord or Toyota Camry, the cars with which it competes... and the F30 kills the Mazda 6S in handling, of course... So the F30 is supposed to be a big step up from this class of car, and it sure as hell is.

It's also way better than my 99 A4 2.8 was, with the Sport Package. And my dad's 2011 Jetta Diesel. And my friend's 2010 G37 sedan, and my other friend's 2008 E300. And my ex's 2004 Volvo S50. Spanks all of them. I could go on and on.

So anyone who is looking to step up from lesser handling cars of a similar size, fear not. This ain't no Accord with a nicer badge.

If you're looking for it to handle as well as your old 3, perhaps not... but that doesn't mean it's "vague" or "disconnected"... it's still one hell of a nice handling car.

Just 2 cents from someone who isn't as expert is these car as you are, and apparently happier with the F30 as a result :p:):):)

Handling is one of those words that has many meanings.

Criticism by professionals that I've read is that the F30 doesn't have any steering feel. That's very different from saying the handling isn't good, or from saying the steering isn't accurate or fine. It can be very good and accurate despite no feel.

The 3 series with each generation outhandles the previous one, my E46 would I'm sure be faster around a tight road coarse than my E36, just due to more modern suspension design and tighter body stiffness. I've no doubt the F30 is the same, especially with the lighter 4 cylinder up front.

Top Gear just wrote that the M135i is a better sports car than the new Boxster, despite having zero steering feel. That says a lot, I think.


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