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-   -   What major repairs @ which milage (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=669452)

BvN 01-11-2013 01:26 PM

What major repairs @ which milage
 
Hi all,

I'm doubting to renew my CPO because of the costs. It will cost me approx 1250 euro's (say $1500) a year for the highest coverage (which covers everything except tires, breakpads, etc.)
So I need more than $1500 on repair costs to make the CPO worth the money.

I was wondering which repair costs you all ran into @ which milage?

What is your opinion in my case? The car is a 2006 650i vert. with approx 22000 miles on it. It's not a daily drive thus I'll drive not more than 4000 miles a year.

tampamark 01-11-2013 01:49 PM

My experience is as follows, these are the repairs, all were warranty or CPO, I am including estimated cost from DEALER if I didn't have the warranty:

Steering Wheel angle sensor - $ 1200 @ 32,000 miles
Mechatronics sleeve - $ 1200 (?) @ 33,000 miles
ARS Block (dyamic drive) - $ 1800 @ 35,000 miles
Dash gauge cluster - $ 1500 @ 38,000 miles

My car had 27,000 miles when I bought it.

BvN 01-11-2013 02:13 PM

Thanks Mark, that are serious costs within a small range of miles!

tampamark 01-11-2013 04:44 PM

I should say that it was the first 2.5 years of ownership, I have owned it for 3.5 years now. My CPO has expired so I am hoping for the best on maintenance costs!

Skarv 01-11-2013 05:32 PM

I've had mine for 15,000 miles and two years... form 64k to 80k which should be bad from maintenance required perspectives.

Needed:
Transmission reprogram ($300) Not really maintenance Not covered in CPO
Convertible top sensors ($1100) Not covered in CPO
DCS failure ($600) COVERED in CPO!!!!!!!
Brakes (DIY for $160) Not covered in CPO
Trans filter & fluid (DIY 220) Not covered in CPO
Tires ($ Long story, but essentially free as they came on my M6 wheels almost new) & not CPO
CCV valves (DIY for $60) Not covered in CPO
Thermostat (DIY for $90) Not covered in CPO
Coolant hose (DIY for $49) Not covered in CPO
Filters and Oil (DIY for $???) Not covered in CPO
. Not covered in CPO
. Not covered in CPO
. Not covered in CPO



My point... My car came with a CPO and I found that BMW found a way to wiggle out of every single opportunity to pay on it. There was always a technicality. The big ticket item: The roof was non CPO because it is in their eyes "an accessory!" As I've said before, I wonder how many Cabrios they have sold without this accessory. Another illustration..... defective transmission programming... and it is not considered part of the "drivetrain" and hence not covered. Really? The software is integral to the transmission. It can't work without it. It is defective by their admission, and unchanged since delivery, and not subject to wear AND Not covered?

I wouldn't waste my money on their CPO. Understand your car, maintain it well, and don't flog it, and it will last you a good long time. I may be more lucky than most, but despite my relatively high mileage, no majors expenses. Just meticulous maintenance of the fluids and systems AND careful use. Drive hard, but without potholes, low fluids, dirty fluids, right pressures etc.

But it does disgust me to have had to pay some significant coin to repair two engineering defects that BMW refused to cover under CPO. Simply stupid image management to not take responsibility for their engineering. Especially on what is one of their flagship products with what would presumably be the sweet spot of their target customer base.

Maintain well and use the money from the CPO for beer. It will make you feel better than BMW will when they refuse to pay on a technicality.

tampamark 01-11-2013 10:23 PM

Well, I also had tires, oil changes, brake flushes, microfilter change and other adjustments that were not covered by CPO. But I never expected my CPO to cover operational wear items so I am not upset, the items that were not covered were clearly listed in the exclusion list in my case. I agree about the top issue, they should cover that no matter what since it is an engineering failure.

Since the topic was MAJOR repairs I didn't really bring up the minor stuff. But there is plenty of that in a car of this caliber!

Yorgi 01-11-2013 10:55 PM

The main point to remember is that warranties are sold to make a profit. They don't push them on you for the good of their health.

If you have the cash flow to handle the unexpected occasional $1,500 repair then I would skip the CPO. I would definitely skip CPO if you work on your own car for minor maintenance items like brakes and oil changes.

That said, a few people on the board have cars that required several big $ repairs and the CPO really paid for itself. I still feel this is the exception.

My '06 650i has had zero issues over the last 2.5 years other than normal wear items. Car has about 68K miles (110K km) on it. I drive the crap out of my cars (I also track the 650i occasionally) and have used it for several very long road trips to mountain roads where I thoroughly flogged the car.

07 E63650i 01-11-2013 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tampamark (Post 7306655)
My experience is as follows, these are the repairs, all were warranty or CPO, I am including estimated cost from DEALER if I didn't have the warranty:

Steering Wheel angle sensor - $ 1200 @ 32,000 miles
Mechatronics sleeve - $ 1200 (?) @ 33,000 miles
ARS Block (dyamic drive) - $ 1800 @ 35,000 miles
Dash gauge cluster - $ 1500 @ 38,000 miles

My car had 27,000 miles when I bought it.

That is just scary!

Skarv 01-12-2013 06:52 AM

Yorgi absolutely nailed it.

If on average they weren't going to take more money from you than they were going to pay on repairs, they wouldn't sell the policy.

My gripe however is that they even refuse to pay on what they SHOULD.

This makes it particularly worthless IMO.

And to TampaMark's point, and one I was trying to make... Most of what you will spend is routine maintenance and wear... which isn't and is not expected in the CPO.

Once in a while, someone does have an engine replacement on the CPO. One should look a them the same as you look at the Jackpot winner in a casino. Lucky, not smart.

tampamark 01-12-2013 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 07 E63650i (Post 7307611)
That is just scary!

ha, this is true! But if I didn't have a warranty I would have had all that work done at an indie and not the dealer so the overall cost of repairing myself would have been less.

One advantage that should be mentioned is that when you have CPO you get the work done at the dealer. Sometimes indie shops aren't as capable, I am not sure an indie would have figured out the dash cluster problem. It took the dealer 4 days of scoping the Fiber Optic lines to find what was causing my car to go crazy.

Also, while my car is at the dealer, I get a free loaner car! I can't tell you how important this is since the 6 is a daily driver for my Wife.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarv (Post 7307873)
And to TampaMark's point, and one I was trying to make... Most of what you will spend is routine maintenance and wear... which isn't and is not expected in the CPO.

Once in a while, someone does have an engine replacement on the CPO. One should look a them the same as you look at the Jackpot winner in a casino. Lucky, not smart.

You are correct there, once the factory warranty is over so is the free oil, brakes, and microfilter. No matter what car I own I will have tires, brakes, battery, fuids, so I really don't count that in my assumptions about the car ownership and CPO coverage.

My experience was very good with the CPO program, they never denied coverage on an item that was in the included list, it was clean and painless.

If the OP is looking at an aftermarket extended warranty and not BMW CPO then coverage and ease of claims vary by company.

FredoinSF 01-12-2013 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yorgi (Post 7307587)
The main point to remember is that warranties are sold to make a profit. They don't push them on you for the good of their health.

If you have the cash flow to handle the unexpected occasional $1,500 repair then I would skip the CPO. I would definitely skip CPO if you work on your own car for minor maintenance items like brakes and oil changes.

That said, a few people on the board have cars that required several big $ repairs and the CPO really paid for itself. I still feel this is the exception.

My '06 650i has had zero issues over the last 2.5 years other than normal wear items. Car has about 68K miles (110K km) on it. I drive the crap out of my cars (I also track the 650i occasionally) and have used it for several very long road trips to mountain roads where I thoroughly flogged the car.

+1 here. I am into my fourth year with the 650i and do the basic fluid changes on my own. The only warranty repair I can recall post delivery has been the passenger side sill plate that was no longer lighting up. It has lowish miles (bought with 13k and 37k now) so obviously it's not a daily driver, but it has been perfect. Oh, and I hook it up to a battery tender if it is going to sit for more than a couple of days.
I had the original 4 year / 50k miles BMW warranty the first two years and was debating getting additional warranty coverage when it expired, but in my case it would have been a waste.
To date, I have paid for oil (motor, trans, and diff), filters (oil, air, and cabin), tires, a short shift kit, and a boot legged 2013 map update. I hope the trend continues.

whitedesigns 01-13-2013 11:17 AM

my experience
 
vacuum pump replaced - under warranty
since then - $0
overall repair costs - $0

always garage kept with dehumidifier
NO modifications
i don't drive it like I stole it (which I suspect many on this board do)
approximately 70K miles

BvN 01-15-2013 10:49 AM

Thanks for the info all! I know regular maintenance is needed now and then. I spend approx another 1500 euro's on it last year. (New rear tires, replacing oil and other fluids etc..) and te opinion of the BMW dealership was that the car was in top condition and tat's the way I want to keep it thus it gets all neccessarry maintenance in time. I also don't drive it like I stole it. Just once drove it to it's limiter. Great to live near Germany where they don't have a speedlimit on most of the highways :)
Anyways it looks like the repairs Mark mentioned are uncommon. I can handle one unexpected 1500 to 2000 euro repair. Just as much as the costs of te aftermarket CPO.
Hope too see more opinions and experiences :)

Peck 01-15-2013 12:44 PM

I have had mine for a little over 2 years. I got it at 67k. the only issues I have had besides normal fluid changes etc is around 80K my radiatior went out, the expansion tank needed replaced soon after. I have 90k on it now, been real happy with it. Car has been well maintained all its life.

HerbP 01-15-2013 04:17 PM

With a low mileage BMW with 26k miles, I would roll the dice. Change your oils at 7500k miles or less, & you will probably never see any major engine problems. Change your oil at 15k miles between changes, you might need to have a CPO. BMW is gambling that they will never see a major drive train problem, until their warranty is over. They encourage you to go with 15k mile oil changes, because they are the ones who will reap the profit in the long haul! :dunno:

bimmerzone 01-18-2013 01:24 PM

I have never had to disagree with Yorgi and same this time!

CPO (or any other warranty) is for the provider to make money... thats the bottom line, else they won't be offering it.

With that being said, if you do all the maintenance yourself and with a little bit of good luck, you will do well without the CPO.

Of course there are cases where you have a major repair and the CPO will come in handy... (same goes for home fire insurance, flood insurance...)


Back to the OP's question, at 22k miles, you really should not have much to worry about (again, don't come beat me up if you had to unfortunately have a bill repair bill...lol)

Skarv 01-18-2013 01:40 PM

I'll add one more idea to this discussion about this (and any) insurance.

The people selling the policies are in a position to know the real risk much better than any of us. They have the actual data. Given that data on claim patterns, they price the policies, and the price them so that they still make money.

Unless you have a solid reason to believe that your case is likely to be different from their general experience, then you are betting against a card counter.

Not that you cant win, but its bad poker if you don't have a better counting system... which most of us don't.

BvN 02-01-2013 03:54 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Thanks all! I've decided to go without prolonging my warranty and hope for the best :) Indeed this insurance companies are there to make profit and I'm convinced that my 650i is in such a condition that I should expect any problems with it.

SO :thumbup: :D

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/att...1&d=1359719643

mjposner 02-01-2013 04:32 AM

Everyones analysis like this "CPO (or any other warranty) is for the provider to make money... thats the bottom line, else they won't be offering it." is wrong. What they do is spread the risk over a large group so that overall, the costs of repair do not exceed the cost of the coverage. They also have hits and misses, as it is a guess (past performance does not guarantee future performance). At the individual level it is a much trickier analysis. Do you trade certainty (XX dollars for Y years) with risk (repairs may be less or more than XX in the same YY period). Given BMW's complicated design, high cost of parts and labor and the likelihood of at least one major item failing in YYY years, I personally opted for the extended warranty.

As an aside, I bought a 2004 Audi Allroad in 08, one owner, full service, clean carfax and only 35k miles. in 1.5 years and 17k miles it had over $17,500 in required repairs. All but $1k covered by my extended warranty.

Check out my car blog: http://carfisheye.blogspot.com/

bimmerzone 02-01-2013 06:07 AM

your point is exactly right too... While they are in it to make money, it like everyone chipping in a little into a pool of cash, and whoever needs it from a "catastrophic issue" gets to take cash out of the pool, and not suffer a major financial blow. (again just like any other insurance)





Quote:

Originally Posted by mjposner (Post 7352391)
Everyones analysis like this "CPO (or any other warranty) is for the provider to make money... thats the bottom line, else they won't be offering it." is wrong. What they do is spread the risk over a large group so that overall, the costs of repair do not exceed the cost of the coverage. They also have hits and misses, as it is a guess (past performance does not guarantee future performance). At the individual level it is a much trickier analysis. Do you trade certainty (XX dollars for Y years) with risk (repairs may be less or more than XX in the same YY period). Given BMW's complicated design, high cost of parts and labor and the likelihood of at least one major item failing in YYY years, I personally opted for the extended warranty.

As an aside, I bought a 2004 Audi Allroad in 08, one owner, full service, clean carfax and only 35k miles. in 1.5 years and 17k miles it had over $17,500 in required repairs. All but $1k covered by my extended warranty.

Check out my car blog: http://carfisheye.blogspot.com/


Skarv 02-01-2013 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjposner (Post 7352391)
Everyones analysis like this "CPO (or any other warranty) is for the provider to make money... thats the bottom line, else they won't be offering it." is wrong. What they do is spread the risk over a large group so that overall, the costs of repair do not exceed the cost of the coverage. They also have hits and misses, as it is a guess (past performance does not guarantee future performance). At the individual level it is a much trickier analysis. Do you trade certainty (XX dollars for Y years) with risk (repairs may be less or more than XX in the same YY period). Given BMW's complicated design, high cost of parts and labor and the likelihood of at least one major item failing in YYY years, I personally opted for the extended warranty.

As an aside, I bought a 2004 Audi Allroad in 08, one owner, full service, clean carfax and only 35k miles. in 1.5 years and 17k miles it had over $17,500 in required repairs. All but $1k covered by my extended warranty.

Check out my car blog: http://carfisheye.blogspot.com/

You are actually agreeing with the "don't buy" crowd so I don't see why you call it "Wrong". Essentially, your point is that on average, they pay out less than they take in. Which means that they are betting that on average, they will charge each of us more than they pay out for our cars. Individually, you are correct, some of us will win because we might have a lemon. But that doesn't change that it is a bad bet. Essentially, you are advocating playing roulette with the odds against you. Yes you can win, but on average you will lose. Essentially, financially, you are advocating a bad decision, but betting on a good outcome. AKA lottery tickets.

This scenario however can be a good decision too. Insurance has its place even if by definition it is a bad financial bet. That place is when you can't afford to lose. Essentially, you can't afford to be the outlier. Then it makes sense because you will lose your house, or you lose your life savings etc. This is why liability insurance is a good decision for most of us. But this is a function of how much money you have. Bill Gates shouldn't bother, but I should.

So back to CPO:

If you can't afford a big repair, but you can afford the CPO, then buy it. (good decision for financial reasons)
If you can't sleep at night, or enjoy your car in the day, because you might get a big repair, buy it. (good decision for non financial reasons)
If you have reason to believe your car is 'at risk' then buy the CPO.
If you can afford repairs, and can sleep knowing you can lose this bet that has odds in your favor, the let the CPO pass. (good decision for financial reasons)

Final footnote: All of the above is irrelevant if you bought an Audi!! In the experience of my friends, (non scientific survey) you own an Audi, you buy the CPO. One of these was a tow truck driver who said "another Audi today" as he picked up my friend's dead one. I have never seen more major trouble in a single marque. Seems the odds are stacked in your favor with Audis :dunno:

Yorgi 02-01-2013 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarv (Post 7352671)
...So back to CPO:

If you can't afford a big repair, but you can afford the CPO, then buy it. (good decision for financial reasons)
If you can't sleep at night, or enjoy your car in the day, because you might get a big repair, buy it. (good decision for non financial reasons)
If you have reason to believe your car is 'at risk' then buy the CPO.
If you can afford repairs, and can sleep knowing you can lose this bet that has odds in your favor, the let the CPO pass. (good decision for financial reasons)
...

This is the best summary I've seen on whether or not you should buy an aftermarket warranty. :thumbup:

bimmerzone 02-02-2013 03:14 AM

Skarv's guide to CPO should be a sticky.... makes all common sense

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarv (Post 7352671)

So back to CPO:

If you can't afford a big repair, but you can afford the CPO, then buy it. (good decision for financial reasons)
If you can't sleep at night, or enjoy your car in the day, because you might get a big repair, buy it. (good decision for non financial reasons)
If you have reason to believe your car is 'at risk' then buy the CPO.
If you can afford repairs, and can sleep knowing you can lose this bet that has odds in your favor, the let the CPO pass. (good decision for financial reasons)

Final footnote: All of the above is irrelevant if you bought an Audi!! In the experience of my friends, (non scientific survey) you own an Audi, you buy the CPO. One of these was a tow truck driver who said "another Audi today" as he picked up my friend's dead one. I have never seen more major trouble in a single marque. Seems the odds are stacked in your favor with Audis :dunno:


tampamark 02-02-2013 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjposner (Post 7352391)
Everyones analysis like this "CPO (or any other warranty) is for the provider to make money... thats the bottom line, else they won't be offering it." is wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarv (Post 7352671)
You are actually agreeing with the "don't buy" crowd so I don't see why you call it "Wrong". \

It is very funny, when I read mjposner's response I said the same thing, he just agreed that companies offer the warranty to make a profit! No one, not even the company, anticipate they will make money on every individual contract they sell.

I am not sure if I am unfortunate or fortunate that my CPO paid off. I am very conflicted!

Nitrogen 02-02-2013 02:27 PM

With only 22K miles on the car and you only drive 4k miles a year, you should as you did get rid of the CPO. You should open another savings account name it CPO and put around $900 a year into it and consider it a CPO.
By the time the car starts needing repair you would have saved some cash to cover lots of things. I commute to work in mine 1.5 hours one way and I have not had crazy problems purrs like kitten and roars when needed.
But I do keep it well maintained as I used to be an automotive tech. for 8 years- but not on BMW's still learning these beasts.


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