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-   -   These engines take forever to warm up (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=671779)

Zooks527 01-23-2013 06:05 AM

These engines take forever to warm up
 
Since the day it was new, I've been surprised at how long it takes for the oil temperature to come up on my car. Case in point was today. 12 minutes from the house, 10 miles away with 8 of them on the highway, and the oil temperature still hadn't moved off the peg. Barely made it to 210F by the time I reached the office 30 minutes / 30 miles later.

Now, granted, it was 6F this morning when I left the driveway, but still ......

dmatre 01-23-2013 06:35 AM

Not certain about how quickly the oil temps come up in a 335, but typically it does take quite a bit longer (several times longer) than the coolant.

I was offered the chance to wring out a friend's Ferrari once. Of course, we had to wait until all of the temps got up to the normal operating range before the fun could begin. We drove around on the highway waiting for all the temps to stabilize.

It was the longest 30 minutes of my life....

raleedy 01-23-2013 08:02 AM

Not really. The bottom peg on the oil temp gauge is 160 Fahrenheit. That's much higher than ambient temperature. The engine is warmed up long before the needle moves.

55 01-23-2013 08:14 AM

At least you have the gauge to keep it under control. I can judge the engine temperature only by the amount of heat from the climate control system. Even my daughters little Toyota has the cold temperature indicator, I have nothing.

GarySL 01-23-2013 08:35 AM

Maybe that's why the manual says to drive as soon as you start it and not wait until the car warms up.

Spagolli94 01-23-2013 08:56 AM

Sure, it's fine to drive it as soon as you start it, but don't you need to wait a while until you punch it?

laser 01-23-2013 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raleedy (Post 7332009)
Not really. The bottom peg on the oil temp gauge is 160 Fahrenheit. That's much higher than ambient temperature. The engine is warmed up long before the needle moves.

Not really ..... that's why the needle moves .....

GarySL 01-23-2013 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spagolli94 (Post 7332107)
Sure, it's fine to drive it as soon as you start it, but don't you need to wait a while until you punch it?

I didn't say anything about punching it or hitting the redline. I would quote the owners manual but don't have it at my finger tips. Just drive it to warm it up don't wait.

Lufthansa 01-23-2013 09:22 AM

I don't believe the oil warms up any slower than any other car using 7 qts. of oil. It's just that other cars' temp gauges relate to coolant vs. oil temps.

cwinter 01-23-2013 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lufthansa (Post 7332156)
I don't believe the oil warms up any slower than any other car using 7 qts. of oil. It's just that other cars' temp gauges relate to coolant vs. oil temps.

Exactly, as indicate by others here as well.

We recently had a rental pick up that had both coolant and oil temp gauges. The coolant gauge was up to normal much faster than the oil temp, and the oil temp changed freely as we drove, cooling down on the highway at low RPMs and going up again in town with frequent stops and starts.

I always found that BMWs coolant temps reach normal operating temperature much faster than other cars, to be honest. They also start blowing hot air into the cabin during cold temps faster than most cars. :dunno: The old E36 I used to drive warmed up really quickly (coolant temp) in cold temps in Germany. The Hyundai I had before that hardly warmed up at all driving few miles, but then that was before Hyundai made quality cars. ;)

daytrader 01-23-2013 10:18 AM

Yeah, mine too. I'ts about 30 min till I hit 220 on the oil gauge. Till then I let them all pass me by knowing my turbos will love me much more for it! :)

DSXMachina 01-23-2013 10:51 AM

It's near zero F. these mornings in NH. If anyone would like to see the data I'll start from cold tomorrow morning and scan coolant temperature and oil temperature on my way into work. Then I'll post the graphs and you can see what happens when.
Please note that this will pain me greatly. Ilsa prefers to hibernate for the Winter but she'll do it in the interest of furthering the collective knowledge. Ask nicely.

(I've done this before, but didn't save the graphs. There are lots of interesting data points.)

Bemo 01-23-2013 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSXMachina (Post 7332311)
It's near zero F. these mornings in NH. If anyone would like to see the data I'll start from cold tomorrow morning and scan coolant temperature and oil temperature on my way into work. Then I'll post the graphs and you can see what happens when.
Please note that this will pain me greatly. Ilsa prefers to hibernate for the Winter but she'll do it in the interest of furthering the collective knowledge. Ask nicely.

(I've done this before, but didn't save the graphs. There are lots of interesting data points.)

I'll post more goat-caring tips if you do it. Is this an incentive enough? :)

08 335Ci 01-23-2013 11:00 AM

Oil temp lags water temp by about 50 degrees. So when your oil gauge show 160, your water is already at 210 degrees F.

Coolant only cools the block and head of heat that has traveled THROUGH them. Oil cools the moving parts, pistons, crank, valvetrain, turbos .... where the heat is generated through combustion and friction. Oil temp is a much better indicator of engine condition them water temp. The owner's manual gives a pretty good explaination of this.

furby076 01-23-2013 11:12 AM

My car's engine starts to warm up the moment I sit my butt in the drivers seat. No ignition required.

:freakdanc:bareass::flame:

vercetti0 01-23-2013 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarySL (Post 7332135)
I didn't say anything about punching it or hitting the redline. I would quote the owners manual but don't have it at my finger tips. Just drive it to warm it up don't wait.

Page 122 in the owners manual.

jburke4689 01-23-2013 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 08 335Ci (Post 7332329)
Oil temp lags water temp by about 50 degrees. So when your oil gauge show 160, your water is already at 210 degrees F.

Coolant only cools the block and head of heat that has traveled THROUGH them. Oil cools the moving parts, pistons, crank, valvetrain, turbos .... where the heat is generated through combustion and friction. Oil temp is a much better indicator of engine condition them water temp. The owner's manual gives a pretty good explaination of this.

Correction, on the N54 at least, coolant cools the turbos. Oil does lubricate them and does carry away some of the heat as a result, but it is the coolant's job to cool the turbos.

The following is right out of the BMW Engine Management Training Document....

The turbine and the compressor can rotate at speeds of up to 200,000 rpm.
The exhaust inlet temperature can reach a maximum of 1050C. Because of these high temperatures, the N54 engine's turbochargers are not only connected with the engine-oil system but also integrated in the engine-coolant circuit.It is possible in conjunction with the N54 engine's electric coolant pump even after the engine has been switched off to dissipate the residual heat from the turbochargers and thus prevent the lube oil in the bearing housing from overheating.

Zooks527 01-23-2013 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSXMachina (Post 7332311)
It's near zero F. these mornings in NH. If anyone would like to see the data I'll start from cold tomorrow morning and scan coolant temperature and oil temperature on my way into work. Then I'll post the graphs and you can see what happens when.
Please note that this will pain me greatly. Ilsa prefers to hibernate for the Winter but she'll do it in the interest of furthering the collective knowledge. Ask nicely.

(I've done this before, but didn't save the graphs. There are lots of interesting data points.)

I can scan coolant temperature on the fly, but can't find the PID code to get oil temperatures or I would have done it out of curiosity. You don't happen to know it, would you?

I hit peak coolant temperature after about 6 miles (4 on highway). As noted, oil temperature is still slowly rising even after 30 miles.


Quote:

Originally Posted by raleedy (Post 7332009)
Not really. The bottom peg on the oil temp gauge is 160 Fahrenheit. That's much higher than ambient temperature. The engine is warmed up long before the needle moves.

You have a far looser definition of "warmed up" than I do. I'd guess the crankshaft is still going to grow another 0.1" in length by the time it reaches 240 from 160, with the same thing going on for the diameter of items stuck into bearings.

Regarding the ever popular "when can I punch it" question, I'll keep mine below 3000 rpm while the needle is still on the peg, and I won't really get on the throttle until I'm past 200 on the oil.


Quote:

Originally Posted by jburke4689 (Post 7332367)
It is possible in conjunction with the N54 engine's electric coolant pump even after the engine has been switched off to dissipate the residual heat from the turbochargers and thus prevent the lube oil in the bearing housing from overheating.

This is a nice feature, which alleviates the "drive like your grandmother for the last 5 miles" advice you typically hear for a turbocharged car. Also prevents the interminable "Where can I get a TurboTimer for the N54?" threads.

furby076 01-23-2013 11:42 AM

Is it possible that 1) the gauge is broken and/or 2) your engine runs cool? You are using steptronic, so unless you are in DS mode the engine shouldn't really get that hot.

I do miss the oil temp gauge. It's useful for all to know, not just manual shifters

Zooks527 01-23-2013 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by furby076 (Post 7332430)
Is it possible that 1) the gauge is broken and/or 2) your engine runs cool? You are using steptronic, so unless you are in DS mode the engine shouldn't really get that hot.

No, it's not broken, because it's done this since day 1. In the summer, it will come off the peg a bit sooner, and eventually ends up around 240 if the outside temperature's over 50 degrees or so. Highest it ever reached is +/- 255 on CTC3, and you could smell the difference outside the car.

08 335Ci 01-23-2013 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jburke4689 (Post 7332367)
Correction, on the N54 at least, coolant cools the turbos. Oil does lubricate them and does carry away some of the heat as a result, but it is the coolant's job to cool the turbos.

The following is right out of the BMW Engine Management Training Document....

The turbine and the compressor can rotate at speeds of up to 200,000 rpm.
The exhaust inlet temperature can reach a maximum of 1050C. Because of these high temperatures, the N54 engine's turbochargers are not only connected with the engine-oil system but also integrated in the engine-coolant circuit.It is possible in conjunction with the N54 engine's electric coolant pump even after the engine has been switched off to dissipate the residual heat from the turbochargers and thus prevent the lube oil in the bearing housing from overheating.

I knew somebody would bring up that feature. And the manufacturers always make a slight improvement into the best thing since sliced bread. I know, I've read my fair share of training materials. But I will admit, water cooling the turbos will lower the stress (heat) on the oil, maintaining the oil's properties longer.

So the N54 is the exception, not the norm. to my statement. My statement applies to ALL cars (even non turbo), motorcycles (Suzuki's SACS especially), medium and heavy duty trucks. Oil does a lot more cooling then people realize.

Don't forget, turbos work by the expansion of exhaust gases. Cool them too much and you'll loose boost. You won't feel it with the N54's stock boost of 8psi but in a big truck or all out racer .... every bit counts.

daytrader 01-23-2013 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSXMachina (Post 7332311)
It's near zero F. these mornings in NH. If anyone would like to see the data I'll start from cold tomorrow morning and scan coolant temperature and oil temperature on my way into work. Then I'll post the graphs and you can see what happens when.
Please note that this will pain me greatly. Ilsa prefers to hibernate for the Winter but she'll do it in the interest of furthering the collective knowledge. Ask nicely.

(I've done this before, but didn't save the graphs. There are lots of interesting data points.)

Quoting "Van the man"; that would be fantabulous! :thumbup:

galahad05 01-23-2013 01:55 PM

Somewhere I read an informative post from one of the big N54 tuners, who mentioned that the DME firmware prevents full boost until oil temps reach 180 F.
On my car's gauge (2007 model) that's two ticks off of the base.

So essentially this is BMW Engineering's opinion on the matter.

DSXMachina 01-23-2013 06:04 PM

Hate to quote myself, but here's something I posted 5 years ago in another forum.
Why does my engine take so long to warm up?

Q: Why does my 335's engine take so long to warm up?

A: Actually it doesn't take any longer than any other engine. It just seems to take longer because you are being informed by the much more important engine oil temperature. Most temperature gauges tell you the temperature of the coolant ("antifreeze") in the cylinder head. This is NOT what you need to know, and here's why BMW engineers want you to know the oil temperature.
It's an old engine builder's maxim that cylinder heads make the power, the block only gets it to the wheels. It's the cylinder head which contains the compressed air/fuel mixture, and where that mix is ignited generating very high temperatures with little heat transfer area. As a result the head heats up much faster than the more massive block.
Cylinder head temperature is a very poor indicator of the block temperature! There are many rotating and sliding components in the block which may not yet have expanded to the proper size for optimal wear, and the minimization of stress. Yes, you can be getting lots of heat in the passenger compartment, maybe even defrosting that overnight ice accumulation. But the block can still be so cold that frost will be on the block's exterior.
The oil temperature is a much better indicator of the overall engine temperature. Your engine is NOT 'warmed up' until your oil temperature is in the correct range. Then you can be sure that your crankshaft has lengthened to the point where thrust bearing strain is reduced, that pistons are optimally sized to the cylinders, that journal clearances are dead-on nominal, and cylinder head gasket clamping force is correct. Then go ahead and drive it as it was designed to be driven, knowing that your oil temperature is telling you what you really need to know.

Nordic_Kat 01-23-2013 07:06 PM

Okay, I know I'm comparing kiwi's to kumquats, but even in very temperate south east Texas temperatures, on the 328i I see this same behavior. I have a 4.5 mile commute to work. There are almost no days in the months between Nov 30 and Feb 28 that I ever get the temp gauge off the peg during my morning commute, and that usually includes two little engine races along the way.

I would very much like to see Ilsa's EKG!!


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