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-   -   The end of an era - Porsche 911 Turbo PDK ONLY - No manual (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=693172)

tim330i 04-30-2013 12:58 PM

The end of an era - Porsche 911 Turbo PDK ONLY - No manual
 
Porsche 911 Turbo PDK only

Porsche has rolled out the specs on the new 911 Turbo and signaled the end of an era. The new top end daily drive-able super car from Stuttgart won't come in manual transmission. The days of endless threads on manual vs fill in the blank replacement technology are coming to an end.

Yes new forms of transmissions are faster, more fuel efficient and safer then three pedaling your way around but I have yet to find anything as satisfying. With performance cars like Ferrari and Lamborgini have already dropped manual options it is expect, but disappointing, to see Porsche following suit.

BMW is already phasing out the third pedal in many of its vehicles because of diminished consumer demand. The latest 8 speed auto or DTC can simply shift better and certainly with less work for the majority of buyers. It will be a sad day when the M3 no longer has a manual option, and that day is coming.

Quote:

Angry mobs, grab your pitchforks. There's no more manual-PDK is the only transmission now. The center differential is now a computer-controlled, water-cooled Haldex unit that can send 13 percent more power up front.
Read Car and Drivers 9 facts about the new 911 Turbo and let us know what you think.

9 Things You Should Know About the New Porsche 911 Turbo

Then to make you feel better watch the 911 Turbo test mule tear up the Nurburgring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg5vsJcJQro#!

AutoUnion 04-30-2013 04:02 PM

who cares if it has PDK? If the MT was really that important, then Porsche would have sold more and clearly they didn't.

The people who can actually afford these cars (not some butthurt "enthusiasts" on the internet) don't care that there's no MT. They want the PDK.



I'm sure this car will be a complete beast!

OBS3SSION 05-01-2013 06:14 AM

The higher-end Porsches are designed to be track toys, race cars, and the ultimate performance vehicles. A manual transmission no longer fits those requirements. I don't see the problem. :dunno:

tim330i 05-01-2013 06:15 AM

Logically I agree 100%. Emotionally, that is a different story.

Tim

solstice 05-01-2013 08:29 AM

Zero surprise to me after their ultimate purist car the GT3 already went PDK. However I find it petty and arrogant of Porsche who pride themselves with option lists long as phone books where you can tailor down to nonsense items that you can no longer have a choice in such a core part of the driving experience as auto or manual transmission. I'm on the fence myself after my first dual clutch in my M3 and having owned a dussin or so MTs. The MT is no doubt more engaging but the DCT comes with a new set of cool sensations. I'm back and forth on what to choose for my next M3 ( F80 ).

swajames 05-01-2013 09:18 AM

No one knows their customers like Porsche. It's not arrogance, it's a response to what customers want and buy. According to my dealer, most cars sold today are PDK-equipped. The minute the GT3 went PDK only, it was a foregone conclusion that the 991 Turbo would follow suit. Let's not forget it's only in the US that you can get a manual F10 M5, and even then I'd bet that the take up is pretty low and the next gen will be DCT only.

williakz 05-01-2013 09:22 AM

Some thoughts collected from a thread on same subject on another forumů.

What if DCTs came with a "stick" gear shifter along with a "clutch" pedal? The shifter would tell the DCT which gear to select and the pedal would be non-functional but give the driver the "feel" of clutching? Driving would be easier as every shift could be perfectly timed and would be perfectly executed, yet it would still be engaging for those expert in the use of a manual transmissions. Would this arrangement satisfy traditionalists? Can the engineers pull it off? Thoughts?

How about the "clutch" pedal operates to unlock the shift lever? No shift can occur until the pedal is depressed, then the DCT performs the requested shift. Or is this whole outcry about auto/manual really about CONTROL and has little to do with functionality or feel?

Manuals are dead, dead, dead. But manual lovers are still around - the manufacturers will have to wait awhile until they're all dead, dead, dead too. The question is what to do in the meantime. If a relatively simple, low-cost adaptation of state-of-the-art hybrid transmissions can satisfy traditionalists until they die off, manufacturers can maximize demand for their products. And once DTS (Driver-Timed Shifting) is perfected, it can be specified as the front-end for whatever transmission technology (from Fred Flinstone's peds to DCT) is really making the car go.

Can the engineers can replicate that feeling of engagement by the clever application of technology? Like they pump engine sound into the cabin to recreate the traditional sports car sound? Like they carefully and purposely allow road bumps to be transmitted through steering components so you get the "feel" of 1930's steering technology using 21st century components?

solstice 05-01-2013 11:02 AM

I guess it could be different for different people for me it comes down to two main items where the DCT is inferior.

1. With an MT I can select exactly the gear I want directly without passing through other gears. Each gear has a physical location. I don't need to count or look to see what gear I'm selecting just move the selector to the gears location.

2. I can disengage the clutch with both hands firmly on the steering wheel with no distractions to the hands. This is big when driving on snow and ice and you want to "free-wheel" to recover grip. Today's electronics helps you with this but again this is handing over the control to the car.

So yes, an MT is about control, always have been. That said the DCT has other advantages so it's a difficult decision but for a GT3 I would absolutely want an MT with zero doubt. The turbo I would have with DCT so this is no big deal for me but the GT3 is a massive dissapointment with it's EPS 4W steering and PDK only. I worshipped that car due to it's purity, now it's just a very good car among others. I rather save the money and get a 911 CS

swajames 05-01-2013 11:18 AM

I bet the 991 GT3 is still going to be absolutely spectacular to drive, though. The pervading view seems to be that if the GT3 is truly a track car for the street, which it is, then a car with PDK is faster around the track than the manual. Totally agree that it's a shame to see one of the last bastions of the manual transmission move some of their models to PDK only but I'd guess the non-GT3 and non-Turbo 991 models will continue to offer stick and they are still excellent cars. Having lived with a 997 manual, I do think my next 911 would be PDK, though....

solstice 05-01-2013 11:48 AM

I agree with that swajames and understand Porsche's positioning and the importance of the GT3's track times and to them racing it in various series and many of their customers. Personally though I can not afford a GT3 as a track toy but I just love driving pure cars with raw classic feedback and control, as such the GT3 was my dream car and now it's not so it's a bit sad. I still think they could have allowed the option of an MT to all 911s as long as there are takers.

408Racer 05-01-2013 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tim330i (Post 7555630)
Logically I agree 100%. Emotionally, that is a different story.

Tim

+1


http://twilight.ponychan.net/chan/fi...2882301075.jpg

williakz 05-01-2013 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solstice (Post 7556324)
1. With an MT I can select exactly the gear I want directly without passing through other gears. Each gear has a physical location. I don't need to count or look to see what gear I'm selecting just move the selector to the gears location.

2. I can disengage the clutch with both hands firmly on the steering wheel with no distractions to the hands. This is big when driving on snow and ice and you want to "free-wheel" to recover grip. Today's electronics helps you with this but again this is handing over the control to the car.

So you would be a candidate for D-STAG (Driver Selection of Timing and Gear) where a "clutch" pedal and "gear" stick would be supplied to transmit driver requests to the transmission control unit (TCU) for arbitration and execution. You could select EXACTLY the gear you want using the gear selection input device (stick). You could also control the precise timing of the shift by using the "clutch" pedal to signal the TCU that a gear shift is desired and upcoming.

Your second requirement is both silly and dangerous as modern automatic traction control systems have been demonstrated to be quicker to act and vastly more effective in their co-ordination of various vehicle systems than you could ever hope to be with your single, ill-conceived action of clutch disengagement.

solstice 05-01-2013 03:42 PM

Well, I've driven MTs for over a decade in a location which is covered in snow half of the year ( I grew up in Sweden ) with and without driver aids and while the aids are efficient they do not provide the same driver engagement and control over shaping and recovering slides and "my single, ill-conceived action of clutch disengagement." has served me well. And again, we are not talking about what is "best, fastest or safest" but what is most entertaining and engaging. Maybe soon a fully computerized car that handles everything is better than my humanly flawed I'll-conceived driver inputs but I'll still prefer driving not be driven. It's why I like cars, I like driving, it's fun. Silly me.

williakz 05-01-2013 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solstice (Post 7557038)
...we are not talking about what is "best, fastest or safest" but what is most entertaining and engaging. It's why I like cars, I like driving, it's fun. Silly me.

You said it, not me. Silly you. Grow up.

solstice 05-01-2013 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by williakz (Post 7557294)
You said it, not me. Silly you. Grow up.

Charming.

TacticalBassist 05-02-2013 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solstice (Post 7557038)
It's why I like cars, I like driving, it's fun.

Nothing silly about that. I enjoy driving too, and I think a fully automated car would be extremely boring.

Ajax 05-03-2013 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solstice (Post 7556324)
I guess it could be different for different people for me it comes down to two main items where the DCT is inferior.

1. With an MT I can select exactly the gear I want directly without passing through other gears. Each gear has a physical location. I don't need to count or look to see what gear I'm selecting just move the selector to the gears location.

2. I can disengage the clutch with both hands firmly on the steering wheel with no distractions to the hands. This is big when driving on snow and ice and you want to "free-wheel" to recover grip. Today's electronics helps you with this but again this is handing over the control to the car.

So yes, an MT is about control, always have been. That said the DCT has other advantages so it's a difficult decision but for a GT3 I would absolutely want an MT with zero doubt. The turbo I would have with DCT so this is no big deal for me but the GT3 is a massive dissapointment with it's EPS 4W steering and PDK only. I worshipped that car due to it's purity, now it's just a very good car among others. I rather save the money and get a 911 CS

1. You could still select the exact gear you wanted with a PDK. Your act of thinking, "which gear am I in, how fast am I going, which gear should I go to?" takes immensely more time than it would take to blip a PDK up or down 3 gears.

2. You can disengage the clutch on a PDK with both hands on the steering wheel. You just pull both paddles back.

solstice 05-04-2013 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ajax (Post 7561428)
1. You could still select the exact gear you wanted with a PDK. Your act of thinking, "which gear am I in, how fast am I going, which gear should I go to?" takes immensely more time than it would take to blip a PDK up or down 3 gears.

2. You can disengage the clutch on a PDK with both hands on the steering wheel. You just pull both paddles back.

1. You can not select the exact gear without going through others. That act of thinking is part of what adds to the "engaging" part of driving a manual. And you actually don't need to think it all becomes intuitive after a while in a way that blipping through a DCT doesn't. At least not for me I still need to check the gear display often when driving my M3 with DCT. I'm not saying the manual is overall faster it isn't but it's more immidiate, intuitive and precise in gear selection in certain scenarios.

2. When you are in a slide or at the edge of grip and often need lightning fast reflexes and focus I prefer to only use my hands to steer not to fiddle with the paddles. It's imo much better to use a limb that is not used for anything else, your left foot. Now, with a lot of training you can likely eliminate the advantage but it's still not as clean for someone who has driven MTs for most of their lives. For younger drivers used to ATs it's another story.

Again DCT or MT depends on the car for me, it's not that I can't see or enjoy the advantages of the DCT, heck I bought one but for a car like the GT3 I would want an MT others will choose differently if the choice was there. It's the lack of choice that is the main complaint not the PDK as such.

Alpine300ZHP 05-07-2013 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solstice (Post 7563209)
1. You can not select the exact gear without going through others. That act of thinking is part of what adds to the "engaging" part of driving a manual. And you actually don't need to think it all becomes intuitive after a while in a way that blipping through a DCT doesn't. At least not for me I still need to check the gear display often when driving my M3 with DCT. I'm not saying the manual is overall faster it isn't but it's more immidiate, intuitive and precise in gear selection in certain scenarios.

2. When you are in a slide or at the edge of grip and often need lightning fast reflexes and focus I prefer to only use my hands to steer not to fiddle with the paddles. It's imo much better to use a limb that is not used for anything else, your left foot. Now, with a lot of training you can likely eliminate the advantage but it's still not as clean for someone who has driven MTs for most of their lives. For younger drivers used to ATs it's another story.

Again DCT or MT depends on the car for me, it's not that I can't see or enjoy the advantages of the DCT, heck I bought one but for a car like the GT3 I would want an MT others will choose differently if the choice was there. It's the lack of choice that is the main complaint not the PDK as such.

I am a diehard MT guy. I mean my 535i was a 6MT. I decided to go DCT this time and let me tell you that I love it. I love MT, but I am fast becoming a DCT convert. It just works so well it is crazy. I knew I was a DCT convert when I got to track an M6 with DCT. I have also driven the Panny GTS with PDK and if I buy a Porsche it will be with PDK.


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