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335d: DTUK CRD-T Vs. JBD box?

53K views 140 replies 24 participants last post by  Bimmerx53 
#1 ·
It seems the DTUK-T is a better option as it is a two channel system controlling fuel throughput as well as turbo boost. DTUK is manufactured by DTE in germany which has years of diesel tuning experience for multiple auto manufacturers. JBD only controls fuel, does not control turbo boost, and JBD makes only one module for this one engine.

I could be wrong, please enlighten me. I have been considering buying both myself.
 
#65 · (Edited)
I'm with Stugots on this one. Different people are willing to get their toe closer to the edge of a cliff and perhaps even hang off of it by their hands. Others want to be two feet from the edge. If a product can't get "close" because the seller/producer doesn't want bad press, the cliff hanger guy suffers. My analogies aside, some want to run with high potential and others just a little bump. The widget shouldn't hold the risk takers back. I'm waiting on tax return and considering the DTUK-CRD. Either that or the Execuhitch.
 
#68 ·
Hmmm, do I want my car to go faster, or tow a boat??? Let me think about it.:dunno:

hahaha:rofl:
 
#69 ·
OK guys, I get it. Flexibility, options, it's all good. So long as you know it before hand.

Stugout, you have repeated twice that there are 28 different settings/maps with the DTUK-CRD-T. I can only account for 4 (1,2,3,4) of them. Where do the other multiples of 7 come from?

I see Maps and Settings, are their 4 maps each with 7 different settings? All Andrew explained was that there was a 0 (0%), 1 (10%), 2(20%) and 3(30%) setting that corresponded with an increase in 0.1v output per step. That sounds like 4 options to me. :dunno:
 
#70 ·
Each map has the ability to go -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, and +3. That's 7 settings per map, making a total of 28 settings to choose from.
 
#74 ·
As you guys Know I have the RENNtech flash and did the my dynos incorrectly with the DSC NOT completely off as it should of been. I am very glad with your results. My results before the flash were 230 whp after the flash was 300 whp NOW bear with me I did not have the DSC coreectly OFF, so I gather I lost some amount of correct whp. In any case I now have the AMSOIL Microfiber filter and HOPEFULLY when I get the time and COJONES to go the dyno I will post new dyno runs. BTW @FLYINGMAN how the hell were they able to get the torque numbers? Problem is that down here NO ONE knows who to get it from a DIESEL, they've never done one!! HELP me SOMEONE on this please!!!
 
#75 ·
In another thread on here someone posted up their experience getting a different flash(name elludes me right now). But he stated which shop was able to get the torque readings in there. So perhaps what you could do is email/call that shop to ask them how they did it. In my experience most shops are willing to share such information although my experience is in the shop-to-shop exchanges and not just Joe Blow calling up and asking.
 
#79 · (Edited)
I just called Lenny @ RENNTECh to confirm this from Snipe, will keep u guys posted Im also curious since I did the 1/2 run @ 130 mph with wind gusts of 25 mph aginst me, hopefully next time I break at 140 mph. Look me up a www.sneakyclub.com January 2012 Event click "RESULTADOS" (Translation RESULTS) and look for Alex Hernandez the ONLY 335d clocked @129.68, the guy under me with 335i had the latest JB configuration and was upset I beat him BUUYYAAAA!! :)

Here's the link: http://www.sneakyclub.com/3-er-evento/resultados/
 
#80 ·
Hey guys,

Too lazy to read the whole thread but if you have any JBD related questions feel free to ask. During development we started with a 2 sensor system, and then a 4 sensor system. The 2 sensor was fuel pressure and MAP, but we found MAP alone would not allow boost control on the 335D and X5D. This required the MAF signal and a boost solenoid signal. With those 4 sensors we could then remap boost in addition to fuel. But found very little gains at higher boost levels. So decided to offer the simpler and less expensive fuel pressure only option which has proven to be rock solid reliable over around 1000 diesels we've tuned so far.

It's very possible the DTUK is running a more aggressive fuel curve and produces 10hp more, etc, but I would be dubious of 30hp+ difference posted based on our testing. If there really is 30hp+ in there that we're not getting with the JBD we'll go release a JBD_2 for you guys with the 4 sensor control. ;)
 
#85 ·
Hey guys,

Too lazy to read the whole thread but if you have any JBD related questions feel free to ask. During development we started with a 2 sensor system, and then a 4 sensor system. The 2 sensor was fuel pressure and MAP, but we found MAP alone would not allow boost control on the 335D and X5D. This required the MAF signal and a boost solenoid signal. With those 4 sensors we could then remap boost in addition to fuel. But found very little gains at higher boost levels. So decided to offer the simpler and less expensive fuel pressure only option which has proven to be rock solid reliable over around 1000 diesels we've tuned so far.

It's very possible the DTUK is running a more aggressive fuel curve and produces 10hp more, etc, but I would be dubious of 30hp+ difference posted based on our testing. If there really is 30hp+ in there that we're not getting with the JBD we'll go release a JBD_2 for you guys with the 4 sensor control. ;)
Thanks for posting!
 
#86 ·
Hey guys,

Too lazy to read the whole thread but if you have any JBD related questions feel free to ask. During development we started with a 2 sensor system, and then a 4 sensor system. The 2 sensor was fuel pressure and MAP, but we found MAP alone would not allow boost control on the 335D and X5D. This required the MAF signal and a boost solenoid signal. With those 4 sensors we could then remap boost in addition to fuel. But found very little gains at higher boost levels. So decided to offer the simpler and less expensive fuel pressure only option which has proven to be rock solid reliable over around 1000 diesels we've tuned so far.

It's very possible the DTUK is running a more aggressive fuel curve and produces 10hp more, etc, but I would be dubious of 30hp+ difference posted based on our testing. If there really is 30hp+ in there that we're not getting with the JBD we'll go release a JBD_2 for you guys with the 4 sensor control. ;)
JB2 now thats what i am talking about!

How can running the same fuel pressure settings as the JBD and 10 more psi of boost not yield much more in the way of power? It seems to me what we are missing is a tune that pushes the boost envelope a bit more. Most of the fuel good fuel boxes used by the diesel truck crowd are making BIG power by not only increasing fueling but also by increasing boost.
 
#89 ·
I could see the small turbo being perhaps close to peaked out in what it can provide as more power. I'd think more is left in the big turbo. Of course don't forget if there is something left in them then does the rest of the system support it. I have seen olde factory turbo cars you can ramp up the boost on but the intercoolers and exhausts really caused some issues at that point.
 
#90 ·
That's a good observation regarding the smaller turbo. I don't know the specs, but one would think BMW wouldn't slap in a turbo that is operating at or near it's max capcaity, but who knows. It's the smaller turbo that kicks in first right? So one would think running call it 10psi more on that bigger turbo in the upper RPM/speed range would result in some nice HP increases where the diesel even with the JBD could really use it since the car's power tends to drop off in the upper gear range after 60 mph.
 
#92 ·
For some reason I have in my head this is a compound boost setup. The first turbo kicking in at near idle conditions and feeding into a larger turbo to pre spool it and allow it to kick in lag free once needed. Is that how it is or are they separate? Regardless the smaller turbo is for the low rpm range and why I think added boost there really is not going to show much at all for power. The "lack" of higher end HP I do not think is from lack of boost but nature of diesels. My friends built up Powerstroke still lacks higher rpm power.
 
#94 ·
See I thought they operated indpendent of one another but in sequence at times. The smaller turbo is always running at a high boost pressure at the lower rpm range, whereas the larger turbo kicks in at the upper RPM range under load but in sequence with the smaller turbo.

The lack of upper end power while it is the nature of how diesel engines work coupled with how our cars are geared, more boost at the upper rpm range would help to mitigate some of that loss, but yes the engine will never pull nearly as strong to redline as a gasoline engine.
 
#96 ·
In keeping with the discussion I thought this is was a good summary taken from myturbodiesel.

Common turbo myths dispelled

The biggest myth is that every turbo car can make more power just by turning up the boost. Boost is only a measure of intake pressure. Pressure can only be created when there is resistance from a restriction.

Everything else being equal and within reasonable limits for the setup, more boost makes more power only if the turbo is operating in an efficient range of performance and if the rest of the setup can benefit from it. Most turbocharged cars have a little room to safely increase boost. If you were to increase the boost to the point where the turbo is trying to move too much air, it actually reduces performance. This is because past the point of diminishing returns, a turbo is basically blowing hot air. This hot air creates intake air pressure and more boost because boost = measure of pressure. Again, back to the idea of volumetric efficiency, you want the maximum mass of air for the engine. Unless the air can be cooled sufficiently by the intercooler, the density of the air might actually be less than it would have been at a lower boost level. This psi level of diminishing returns is different for every setup and every car and even varies by ambient conditions. At that point, some modern cars compensate by using their computer and sensors to adjust the timing to prevent detonation. The TDI engine car computer has air temperature and pressure sensors and a program that will prevent increased power if the only change is increased boost. You need a chip or other performance enhancement to increase fueling, see 1000q: basic performance upgrades for the TDI for more details.

Again, it is a common mistake to equate boost, or intake pressure, with denser air. Assuming the other variables are constant, the ideal gas law PV=NrT shows that if you raise pressure, temperature increases. Also keep in mind the above paragraph about operating a turbo outside of its areas of efficiency. It's easy to get so caught up with quick power gains from more boost pressure that one can forget that the ultimate goal of turbocharging is increasing air density, not just pressure. In designing the engine as a whole system, you want to create the same amount of power with the least amount of boost, within a range, to reduce stresses on the engine and turbo and to keep air moving at a reasonable speed throughout the intake tract.

One more time: boost pressure is a measure of intake restriction. You could put a choke in the intake air path and that would also create boost (but reduce power). A turbo moving a lot of air but showing relatively low boost on a boost gauge means there is low air restriction in the intake air path. Remember, the goal in increasing power is to move more air, more efficiently, not just create boost. Changing camshafts to allow more air into the combustion cylinders, changing the combustion cylinders by boring and making the diameter of the cylinders wider, or stroking the engine and making the length of the piston travel longer, can all increase the amount of air moved.

Adding a larger turbo does not mean the engine will make more power. In a modern car, the turbo is regulated by sensors, computer feedback, and solenoids set to control the boost at a certain pressure. The computer measures the pressure with sensors normally at the intake manifold or some spot right before the intake manifold. Everything else being equal (load, rpm, etc), one large turbo and one small turbo will flow identical pressures of air at a given psi but remember that psi is just a measure of pressure - air mass is what matters and is what makes power!

Here is an example: to flow a certain amount of air, where a smaller turbo may have already passed its maximum efficiency and is blowing mostly hot expanded air, a larger turbo will still be operating in its area of maximum efficiency and is moving cooler denser air at the same psi. Again, assuming that one turbo is stressed too much and the other is in its peak efficiency, they are both giving the same psi but not the same density of air. 20 psi is always 20 psi, the difference between an efficient turbo and a turbo blowing hot air is the temperature of the air coming out of the turbo which affects density. 20psi of 50oC air is not the same as 20psi of 14oC air. There are also other factors that effect this such as the size of the turbo housings, backpressure, etc.. You want to select a turbo which balances responsiveness with moving your desired mass of air. Do a lot more research and consult your performance and parts vendor before crunching the numbers and selecting a turbo setup. The same turbo on a 4.0L engine will respond totally different than on a 2.0L engine.
 
#108 ·
@NotNormal WTF a whole lot of miles of fun traveling wow. I have put 13k in less than year here in Puerto Rico thats 100 miles x 35 miles LOL. Sorry I love driving my DIESEL!!! Anyway finally people are coming to grasp at the potential our BEASTS have and are being unleashed. I am happy the RENNtech flash I have. I almost bought Terry's product which BTW my mechanic here in Puerto Rico sells alot. I support RENNtech's product as well as Terry's and anyone who tries to make our babies drive how they were intended to be driven.
 
#110 ·
Hey, sadly no, I've not got the baseline HP figure to hand....next time I go past the dyno place I'll pop in and find out the uncorrected figure

Egr pipe....arrived today but I wasn't around when the postman came, collecting it for the sorting office tomorrow
If I get chance I'll set too fitting it .....
 
#113 ·
Well....fitted my EGR blank, effortless and simple, as expected.
Done 60 miles or so, stretched my cars legs alittle .... First impressions, marginally quicker spool, seems alittle stronger midrange and has a crisper more constant feel to the power delivery top end too

The shock so far, no engine management light. Although, I'm sure that'll pop up in due course haha

Booked in for a remap on Thursday, so I'll see what that yields !

So far so good....
 
#116 ·
Thankyou, yes, feeling allot better

Done about 100 miles now, mixed driving, from town stop start to high speed hard acceleration too.
No lights as yet.

Hey Tom,

Thanks for the follow up! Did you install or did a shop do that? Can you walk us through the install process?

Also can you post up the link for the part that you purchased?
Hi, yes, sure, I fitted it myself.
Not at all difficult ... One bolt was alittle awkward/fiddly button stress.

*remove engine cover

*removed the central air duct above radatior

*release boost hose from throttle body

*disconnect electrical connector for throttle body

*remove three torques screws (t30)
Throttle body comes off at this point

*undo the jubilee clip on the left of the egr valve

*remove vacuume pipe on right of egr

*undo four 5mm allenkey bolts holding egr on

At this point you have an open inlet manifold and are ready to fit the egr removal pipe

Clean the faces of any oil residue

Refit the egr blank in the reverse process of the above

Please note, you will loose one of the mounting points for the engine cover, but fear not, it doesn't effect it in any way. There are enough bolts on the engine cover to keep it secure and you'll not have any rattles.

Here is where I got my kit from :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E60-E...arParts_SM&hash=item257057a096#ht_2013wt_1501

It comes complete with bolts ect... But tbh, I felt more comfortable reusing the standard BMW bolts

Any questions, please feel free to ask.....if I can help, I will .....
 
#117 ·
Tom -

Many thanks. Needless to say this is promising! Unfortunately we don't have a tuner here stateside that can code for this (yet). Maybe Evolve has something? But perhaps based on your experience so far it is not needed. Iwould be interested in seeing if your light ever does come on. I realize you are taking the car in to have it tuned for this but man wish I could convince you to drive it another 500 miles or so to see if that damn ses light ever comes on

Is the part sold by the same guy I spoke to a while back and is this part different then the one I was looking at?

Chris
 
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