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Cold weather and the battery charge

39K views 126 replies 33 participants last post by  brilliant 
#1 ·
Hello,

I have got my X3 xDrive35i 2013 in August this year and did not have any problems with the battery before today. We do not drive too much every day, although we do driver every day. I have seen the messages from the people having problems with X3, having to charge it regularly. I anticipated that it may happen and bought the original BMW charger once I have found a good deal.

Last night the temperature outside dropped to -24C, by more than 10C in one night. When I started the car in the morning it was OK. Once I got to my destination and turned off the engine I have noticed the orange message "charge the battery". Shortly after I went back home, did another stop on the way and saw the message saying that the car is disabling some functions while parked because of the low battery charge. Then I went home and let the car to idle for about 30 mins on my driveway - I needed to make another trip with my baby and I did not want to risk. Finally, after getting back home I have noticed that the message about the low battery charge was still present. So I decided it was time to open that charger. I have left it charging for about 6 hours and when I went outside to check it the light was green, like if the charger has done its job. I was surprised because I expected it to work for at least 20-30 hours or so. Charger delivers 1.25 A, the battery is 90 Ah, if it was mostly discharges I expected it to charge for quite a while. I needed to make another trip, everything was fine, no more message about the low battery.

Anyone experienced something like this? Did you have any problems with X3's battery after a cold wave?
 
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#48 ·
Rho, concur ... unless there are problems in the system. It's possible that, in extended cold weather as described in this thread, one or some of the components don't get the job done. Given the number of complaints, it seems like there might be a design flaw or weak component in there somewhere. I know that BMW does extensive cold weather testing so it's hard to fathom what is going wrong. Probably beyond the ken of most dealers and will have to be solved by the BMW engineers.
 
#49 ·
Probably beyond the ken of most dealers and will have to be solved by the BMW engineers.
As I said yesterday, looks like they have found a possible problem. When they get the part and I get it replaced on my car I will post the description from the report. And I will certainly try to ask the guys there about the nature of the problem they have found, just for my curiosity.
 
#53 ·
I also appreciate RhoXS's contribution to this topic.

I'm in a mild climate with no problems, but I am curious. I have a plug in voltmeter in the front cigarette lighter port, and have started testing with a clamp on Hall effect amp meter to measure battery current in the negative lead. I'll publish more detailed results later as I monitor charge/ discharge rates. Example: seems like the discharge rate reduces to .4A after the engine is turned off, and systems begin shutting down.

My only mystery so far is the typical operating voltage. It ran at 14.8V or so when I first installed the voltmeter. Seemed consistent for weeks, then moved to 13.6 (except going higher during "coasting") for about a week, and now it is back to 14.8V. Only problem is I can't correlate any operational differences to explain it.

I'm mainly just interested in getting baseline voltage and current data for future reference if a problem ever arises.
 
#54 · (Edited)
At least for selfish interests I am glad you are taking those readings. Not only is the net battery current an interesting parameter, I still have it in the back of my mind that the cigarette lighter voltage may not always exactly match the battery terminal voltage because of a DC-DC voltage regulator that maintains the vehicle electrical system at a mostly constant voltage. I don't think this is the case because my brief test indicated it is not, but, also, the fact that I have seen voltage variations at the console cigarette lighter output I think also confirms this is also what the battery is seeing.

What temperatures are you seeing that you define as a mild? Based on observations (seat of pants type of observations) and the voltage vs temperature relationship graphically presented in the document Coder referenced in an earlier post, I perceive the transition from a 13.5 volt or so system voltage to a 14.5 volt or so value occurs in the 40 F something range. I also perceive the battery well (where the temperature sensor is) under the rear deck, does not warm up to cabin temperatures so it remains cold when the cabin might be toasty.

Thanks for your contribution. It is appreciated.
 
#55 ·
Ah ha, RhoXS, I think the temperature factor was it. We did have a cold spell about the same time as the 13.6 reading, but now back to 60's in the San Francisco area. Should have remembered the earlier post.

Thankfully, my area won't support real cold weather testing, but I'm going to set up the amp meter and one or two voltmeters. To capture the data, I'm going to set up a video recorder for long term analysis. The first test was cut short because the Fluke meters turned themselves off after 20 min... had to go back and read the manual.

I too am curious about the cigarette lighter voltage vs the battery voltage, but there are four positive leads... any idea which one to monitor? Yep, I don't just assume they all represent the classic positive terminal.
 
#56 · (Edited)
I am not sure what you meant when you said "We did have a cold spell about the same time as the 13.6 reading" but voltage is supposed to increase with low temperatures.

I use a Fluke 87 V and that auto off feature is certainly necessary but it is a pain sometimes. I think it can be overridden but I don't remember how. I have seen cases when these (and similar meters) were set up to record peak voltages when starting large machinery and the data was lost when the start was delayed and the meter had shut itself off.

When I monitored the voltage directly at my battery, if I remember correctly, the negative terminal was just sufficiently visible to easily put the point of a probes on it. The positive terminal had a little door on the top of the red plastic assembly that opened and exposed the bare terminal, again just enough to put the point of a probe on it. I strongly suggest measuring the voltage right on the lead battery terminals and then you know exactly what the all important battery terminal voltage is.
 
#57 ·
I cannot disagree with RhoXS...true, after thinking about what I was told and what I have read I can hardly believe it is possible to have 14+ volts on the lighter socket when the engine is running without alternator being engaged. Also, it is possible that the battery charging logic (i.e how much current is sent to the battery at any given moment of time) has nothing to do with the alternator producing the electricity. At the end, $50 charger is smart enough to manipulate the amperage to properly charge the battery, why can't the electrical system in $60K+ car do the same? ;)

BTW, I have got myself a CTEK MUS 4.3 charger at the end. I was a good deal and I have heard too much good feedback about it. I did a test this weekend, allowed the BMW "advanced charger" to go to "green" more and then replaced it with CTEK one. I was not surprised to see that CTEK quickly jumped to mode 3 (bulk charging), stayed in this mode for about 2 hours, then went to mode 4 (absorption, when it is supposed to charge the battery to the maximum while reducing the current) and spent another ~2-2,5 hours in that mode. It was mildly cold outside. I suspect that BMW tender does not really do good job in cold climate plus it uses only 1,25A and CTEK one uses up to 4,3A.

For our place I see -22C for the coming week so we'll give it another test while waiting for the magical fix from BMW :)
 
#58 · (Edited)
... I can hardly believe it is possible to have 14+ volts on the lighter socket when the engine is running without alternator being engaged. Also, it is possible that the battery charging logic (i.e how much current is sent to the battery at any given moment of time) has nothing to do with the alternator producing the electricity. At the end, $50 charger is smart enough to manipulate the amperage to properly charge the battery, why can't the electrical system in $60K+ car do the same? ;)
Its a lot simpler than that.

First, contrary to a common misconception, without seeing any documentation, I am 100% certain the alternator is always mechanically "engaged". There is no mechanical clutch etc. that engages or disengages the alternator. The charging system executes its decisions by electronically controlling the alternator output voltage, probably by simply controlling the field voltage.

Second, when the system decides it needs to charge the battery, it simply adjusts alternator output voltage to whatever voltage corresponds to the state of charge that is desired. During normal driving in mild temperatures that is around 13.5 volts. When coasting or braking that is about 14.6 volts or so.

I am reasonably certain that 13.5 volts or so will correspond to about an 80% state of charge for a lead acid battery. 80% is also where BMW says the battery is maintained so there is room to put coasting and braking energy without overcharging the battery. BMW also states they provide an oversized battery so the amount of energy available at 80% is equivalent to 100% of the energy available from a smaller battery as would be used if they did use this funky ass system to recover breaking and coasting energy. 14.6 volts or so is the charging voltage to 100% charge the battery. How charging voltage corresponds to the state of charge is a function of battery chemistry, not battery size. However, a bigger battery will charge at a higher charging current than a smaller battery.

Standard automotive lead acid batteries do not like sitting at anything less than a 100% charge. Typically a car battery is intended to do nothing more than start the car and then be immediately recharged to a 100% state. Maintaining a standard automotive battery at less than 100%, even a little less than 100%, will cause it to gradually lose capacity and fail (look up "sulfation" if you want to know why). That is why BMW uses so called AGP batteries in our X3s as they have so called deep cycle qualities and can better tolerate remaining at less than a 100% state of charge.

As long as the alternator is keeping the voltage at the battery terminals where desired, there will be sufficient current to provide for both the vehicle electrical load and what goes into the battery. If the alternator was not providing for 100% of the electrical load, the difference would have to come from the battery and that means the terminal voltage would drop below 12.6 volts because energy would be flowing out of the battery. The alternator does not "send current to the battery" per se, it is controlled to establish a voltage at the battery terminals and then, for a given voltage, the current is determined by the battery based on the state of charge.

Think about this way. Voltage is analogous to pressure. Current is analogous to water flow in a plumbing system. The greater the pressure, the greater the flow. Voltage is what drives current flow like pump pressure pushes water flow. To charge a battery, the alternator has to maintain a sufficiently high pressure to overcome the battery's natural internal pressure (12.6 volts). The greater the alternator's pressure is above the battery's internal pressure, the more flow will go into the battery. If the alternators internal pressure drops below the battery's internal pressure, then flow will be out of the battery.

You stated "why can't the electrical system in $60K+ car do the same?". It has been my observation, certainly open for debate, that the system does indeed do an excellent job as long as nothing is broken. My observations are only based on a single vehicle (my X3) but everything I have seen indicates the system works very well, even if it is ridiculously over engineered.
 
#59 ·
Now I can confirm 101% all these troubles were not caused by the battery. It was -22C last night. I have left the charger overnight and in the morning it was all shining green. Measured the voltage on the battery in sleep mode - 12.59V (-22C, so this number is quite good according to the table from batteryfaq.org). My wife went to the school and could not start the car again when she came back 5 minutes later. This time the car displayed "Drivetrain malfunction..." error and did not start. The starter did not even turn. BMW Roadside assistance - same sh@t again, no answer. Called the manager from BMW, he told me that it sounds exactly like the problem they have found with the power distribution box. He told me to ask my wife to keep trying to start the car once in 5 minutes and it would start eventually, so it did about 30 minutes later. Now she is at the dealership but they still do not have that part that was backordered :(
 
#60 ·
I find this an interesting thread. Last weekend, after starting my car in -22 C (-7.6 F) and driving for over an hour, I got "Charge battery" message after engine shutdown. The interior lights didn't work and the car was saving electricity hear and there. I charged the battery with an intelligent charger for over two days and haven't seen the message again (so far).

Before the message showed up, I had been driving longish trips (1-2-3 hours per engine start), so I was quite surprised when the car asked for charging. I started googling and found several similar cases both in Finland and in other countries. As far as I know, the problems start when the temperature drops to -20 C (-4 F) or so. Today, I have been reading the power management document (I find it interesting).

I have also started monitoring the system voltage while driving (you can enable a voltage display in the instrument cluster, but I haven't verified the accuracy of the readings yet). Yesterday, I started off from a warm garage, and the system voltage was 13.6 V in the beginning (14.6 V when coasting), but it slowly climbed to 14.6 - 14.7 V (as the battery temperature dropped?). During that trip, the charging appeared to work perfectly, as far as I can tell. The trip was a short one, so I think the battery didn't get too cold. Maybe the charging problems start when the battery temperature drops to -20 C or so.

The car will be checked by the local BMW dealer tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure they won't be able to find anything wrong with it and will blame my "driving profile" for the problem. (I never ever had problems with batteries in any of my previous cars, so I'm not going to buy that explanation.)

There seems to be lots of disinformation about cars, batteries, and cold weather. If your car has a good alternator, it will supply the current required by heaters, lights etc. and NOT discharge the battery when driving at all. If the battery still is discharged, there must be something wrong - a bad battery, failing alternator - or a design flaw in the intelligent power management system.

I will try to keep monitoring the system voltage, especially when it is below -20 C and see if the voltage drops in some circumstances. I am pretty sure that the problems (well, at least THIS problem) will not show up when it isn't "cold enough". At least all the posts I have read mention -20 C as the temperature where the problems start.
 
#61 ·
I am very disappointed with this car and I give up. I will be contacting BMW and demanding that they buy back this piece of **** they call a car by mistake. Seriously, I am not supposed to waste so much time maintaining this car. Especially after discovering (in my case) that all these stories told by the dealer about the battery was complete BS - that was finally proven yesterday. In 5 months since buying it I just visited the dealership really too often, not only for this reason but to fix other problems. And there is still one more thing to fix in this car - the noisy sunroof. I understand that it is not all their cars that are affected by these problems (otherwise BMW would be bankrupt by now ;) ) but the personal experience with this particular car is now so negative that I have zero confidence in it. If BMW refuses then looks like I will be looking for an attorney.
 
#62 ·
For those having issues, I've copied and pasted what another person wrote on another thread on the "other" forum about this issue.

Here it is:

I have my x3 in today getting the PDM replaced for the 2nd time. The dealer told me that BMW is working on a permanent fix and that they will contact me when available.

It's definitely cold weather related. The 1st occurrence was before Christmas when the temps went down to sub -30C. It happened again on the weekend with temp at -37C.

The problems occur after the vehicle has warmed up then been allowed to sit for a bit in the extreme cold. The 1st time it occurred I was unable to start the car. I called for a tow and was told that it would be a couple of hours. After about 30 minutes of waiting I thought I would give it a try and the car started but the Drivetrain Malfunction stayed. I shut off the car and tried again after 15 minutes and every was fine.

They've explained the problem as follows: the PDM has a breather on it and with the cold weather it's been allowing condensation to build inside. When the car is cold the condensation is frozen and has no impact on the system. As it warms the condensation melts and that is when you have problems. When the engine area gets cold enough for the moisture to freeze again all is fine.
 
#63 · (Edited)
Thanks for posting that excellent information. Although I am not having a problem I am very curious about what is going on. If anyone knows, it would be good if the following questions could be answered.

What is the PDM and where exactly is it?

Is it safe to assume the water that gets into it essentially shorts out a circuit board as I guessing this is an electronics control module (Power Distribution Module?? - Although its more likely from a German translation).

Is there a TSB on it?
 
#64 ·
What is the PDM and where exactly is it?

Is it safe to assume the water that gets into it essentially shorts out a circuit board as I guessing this is an electronics control module (Power Distribution Module?? - Although its more likely from a German translation).

Is there a TSB on it?
From what I was told by my (former) dealer - they wanted to replace the Power Distribution Module. Which seems to me like an acronym for PDM...

They seem to be backordered everywhere so they had to order one from Germany - and even there it is not immediately available.
 
#69 ·
I agree with RhoXS in his msg #58. Ican also tell that there is very huge resistors in cars heater. Ask your local dealer the power of resistors. For example 1250W used in scandinavia makes abt. 96Amps. So it is no wonder if there are problems with a battery. The car could not manage if battery is not fully charger or charger could not carry all load.

Ask if dealer can make parameter change "IGR=aktiv to nicht_aktiv"

There is also "flavor" in a BMW brand webasto control. Webasto don't heat if cars motor is running :( Webasto will heat by 5kW power and consumpts only abt. 48w electricity. If webasto works normally, you dont need high power resistors and you save battery.

[Sorry bad english]
 
#70 · (Edited)
Actually I wrote wrong info to other forum, it is actually igr=off in engine control unit. Dealer can't do that, what they can do is to remove "brake energy regeneration" from the vehicle order and code the car. That does the same thing. Anyways I think that they are not willing to do that. It turns off intelligent battery charging so battery is charged to 100% instead of 80%. I wouldn't rush on this, I am still testing it. It is possible that the car won't lower charging voltage after the battery is full -> if I have understood correctly, this will destroy the agm-battery in the end so it is possible that a regular battery is needed. I will inform you guys after my battery has been fully charged.
 
#72 · (Edited)
Maybe taxes are not problen in US/Canada? Please ask your local dealer to disable "brake energy regeneration" from the vehicle order and code the car.

Final solution is that BMW makes software that disables automatically "brake energy regeneration" if temperature is below for eg. -10c.

Please insist that from BMW. Your consumer protection is in high level so egg on the lawyers against BMW!!! If BMW complains something of the emissions, say that Start/stop disables automatically @+3c temperature. Emission are tested in +20c temperature.
 
#73 ·
Maybe taxes are not problen in US/Canada?
LOL. Cannot say about US, but taxes is a PROBLEM in Canada ;)

say that Start/stop disables automatically @+3c temperature. Emission are tested in +20c temperature.
Haha. My Start/Stop was shutting the car down when it was -4C. After driving for about 800m. With cold engine. I told that to the dealer. What I heard back was the stuff like "new software" and "it measures the battery temperature, not the outside temperature". From what I have read, there is definitely a small controller in the battery contact that, among other things, reports the temperature.

But I was also uncomfortable about stopping the cold engine when it is mildly cold outside just after driving for 800m. If BMW cannot explain that, then I will have my ASS reprogrammed to remember the last setting, that will allow me to permanently disable it for a long period of time.
 

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#77 ·
My 2012 X3 35i let me down for the first time yesterday. It was about -19 F yesterday morning and the X3 was in the garage which was about 30 F. X3 started right up, with no errors or warnings. I drove to work, 25 miles mostly highway and takes me about 30 minutes. Parked the X3 turned it off and got a low battery warning. Didn't think to much of it because I got this error once before. I had to run some errands for lunch so I left about 4 hours later and the X3 started up again but I got a increased battery discharge warning.

I drove about 15 minutes to the store, shut off the X3 ran inside for about 10 minutes. Came back out and the X3 wouldn't start, made a clicking noise and gave me a charge battery warning. Luckily I always carry jumper cables in the car and I was able to get a jump from someone.

I think the charging system in this car really sucks, get rid of that stupid efficiency dynamics stuff, I'll take the 1 mpg penalty.

I put it on the charger when I got home, but It was -21 F this morning so I drove my old 2006 Mazda 3 because I was afraid of getting stranded in my $50,000 BMW. Really sad.
 
#78 ·
Just got a call from BMW. They have replaced the PDM for the same one. They claim that the old part was defective. Looks like they take the protective measures to get the cars out as quickly as possible regardless of the end result. So, looking forward to another cold morning in the dead car soon.
 
#79 ·
Got the car back. Considering that I have made a few post talking about the issue recently + requested that BMW buys it back they were rushing to get it out of the shop. Funny, just last Thursday they did not even have the tracking number on the new PDM. And on Monday it was installed ;) Miracle. I asked the straight question if they have installed the new part or the same one - the answer was "the same". They claim that the old PDM was defective.

Interesting - the service invoice mentions "PUMA 56461584". Anyone has an idea what is it?

Also, BMW customer service has refused to even discuss the buyback. I guess they take advantage of the lack of lemon laws in Canada, they have enough troubles with that in USA, I think ;) Not even apologizing for real for the crap they have sold, just standard "I truly apologized for the frustration you have with your vehicle". Hahaha, you was stupid enough to pay us - you are screwed, we have won ;)

Well, that how much they value their image in Canada, I suppose. Surely will tell the story to my dentist in details when I see her ;)

My biggest concern (apart of getting rid of that lemon - that's the lawyer's job now) is that this car will die again soon enough and either me or my wife will be stuck again in an ultimate but ultimately unreliable driving machine.
 

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#80 ·
I'm trying out the NOCO G7200 on my X3 tonight. It started from 25% and rose rapidly to 50, 75, and now it's in the 75 - 100 mark. The lack of driving (8800 kms in a year) and the cold does cause some changes in the car's behavior. Certainly not the warnings / errors that others have been getting, but I''ve seen the sluggish cranks, refusal to go into ASS, and the car not powering up the accessories immediately (or even shutting down accessories if it does manage to go into ASS).

First time trying a trickle charger so will see how it turns out tomorrow.
 
#86 ·
At the same time I was told by the foreman at the service that at 80% in very cold weather the startability becomes problematic. They measure the startability using some sort of magical formula....when I had battery at 82% they calculated the startability at 36%.
 
#91 ·
PuMA is a BMW database of all reported problems and fixes. I think the acronym means Problem und Mebnahmenmanagement Aftersales or something like Problem and Measures management Aftersales.
 
#95 ·
Have you guys been getting the message again? I got it a few times during that cold spell here in Ottawa in late Dec early Jan and brought it in to the dealer and was told that it's due to the cold weather and if the error wasn't persistant then it's nothing to worry about. So what I did from then on is always lock the car when I get home even though it's in the garage and unplug anything inside the car that could be still draining some power and haven't seen the message again.
 
#96 ·
I believe we are talking about two different problems here. One is the general problem with [some] vehicles experiencing excessive battery drain and not recharging them properly due to bad design and somewhat challenging usage patterns. And another one is that weird issue about the PDM that prevents the car from starting after a trip in cold weather. So far we had two incidents of the latter type with my car. Plus the low battery condition which was, I believe, corrected by charging the battery with an external charger. At least, this is how I see it...
 
#99 ·
Any more on this? After weeks of temps in the low 20's and below zero, I hadn't gotten any warnings on my X3. Took it out today and for the first time I got a "charge battery" warning when I shut off the vehicle. After it sat for 6 hours it started right up but said battery was discharging while car was off and certain electronics were shut down. I will have had the X3 for three years come July and this is the first time I've gotten the message. So I'm wondering if I push for a new PDM or just throw it on the charger and hope things go better from here on out. Doesn't sit well with me that I have to worry about charging the car every time it gets cold. I live in Michigan for goodness sake. It's cold here for 4-5 months straight!!
 
#100 ·
BTW, I think I (at least me personally) can close on this battery issue. I have a solid proof both stalls we had have absolutely nothing to do with the battery. So it was all BS from the service to get me out of the door, at least the first time. After the issue with PDM was identified I have stopped charging the car frequently. Recently I did a test: did not charge it for a week, driving my usual routes, turning all the heating stuff I needed without any hesitation. So? At the end of that week we had pretty warm day and the car was doing ASS when it was about -0.5C outside. Not that I liked the fact that it was stopping the cold engine (!) when it was less than +3.5C, but the fact that it was doing it proves that the battery charge was quite sufficient. And after that I have connected the CTEK charger. So it went from the phase 3 to phase 4 very quickly, which means that the battery was most likely at 90% or more.
 
#101 · (Edited)
I have been avoiding making any more comments because too many people still seem to think the system is poorly designed. However, I think what you said above validates my argument. The electrical system in the X3, including the charging function, when everything is functioning properly, is robust, works very well, is capable of charging the battery, and easily handles a heavy vehicle electrical load. If there is a need to charge the battery with an external charger, then something is not working properly and needs to be fixed. Obviously, from the large number of posts regarding this topic, there are some components that do not appear to exhibit the high degree of reliability that we have every reason to expect. There appears to be an especially high failure rate in very cold weather. Nevertheless, when everything works as designed, the system needs zero driver attention either to manually charge the battery with an external charger or to manage/minimize electrical load. Since automotive batteries are designed to recharge quickly and the total starting energy is delivered in a very short period of time (just seconds), the battery gets recharged to the desired state during even relatively short trips. Needeing to charge a healthy battery at highway speeds for long drives is a myth. By the way, starting an engine only uses, worst case, less than 5% of the total battery capacity.
 
#107 · (Edited)
Just purchased a Deltran Battery Tender for our 2011 X3. It has been so cold here in Central Illinois and I have been only driving 20-30 miles per day. Went about 3-4 days without driving it as we used our new 2014 Siverado Z-71(replaced our 2008 Z-71 that was destroyed by tornado in November ( - yea it's been that kind of winter) to plow through the snow and cold. That's when the 'Low Battery Charge' warning appeared. Really don't want to be stranded in a parking deck.
 
#108 ·
I do the same thing with the same Deltran. Our X3 often sits for 3~ 5 days without being used. That coupled with extreme temps we have been having lately makes it just seem like a wise decision. Also, the SA at the nearest BMW dealer told me that I can expect 24 months additional service out of the battery by using a trickle charger. That alone makes it worthwhile to me. Never have seen a error message in winter. Might be a bit of a overstatement, but who knows.
 
#109 ·
Fed up

I, too, am having issues with my 2013 X3's battery. I really have a problem with a car that cost over $55k that requires that I regularly charge its battery in cold weather. The car is in a garage at approximately 35 degrees and it loses its charge if I don't drive it for a few days. Then it will not allow me to turn my heater on--only the defroster. Is anyone else fed up a luxury car that won't let you turn the heat on?
 
#110 ·
Won't start periodically

I have a 08 x3 and I was out running errands and came out of the last store and my car wouldn't turn over. I got a jump and it fired right up. About a month later the same thing happened with no problems in between. I went and got the battery tested and it registered about 38% charge and the volts were fine they said. We have only owned the car since December and they put a new battery in it just before we bought it. Any suggestions?
 
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