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65K views 423 replies 43 participants last post by  dtc100 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)


The latest episode of "Head 2 Head" from Motor Trend is a battle of the little luxury sixes, looking to see which of these $50,000 sport sedans, all equipped with automatic transmissions, can lay the largest claim to your money: the 321-horsepower, six-speed Cadillac ATS 3.6, the 302-horsepower, seven-speed Mercedes-Benz C350 Sport or the 300-horsepower, eight-speed BMW 335i.
Ouch. 335i is described as rubbery and not fun to drive.

I know Motor Trend is a rag, but jeez, losing to a C350? That's almost worse than losing to the ATS.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/24/motor-trend-goes-head-to-head-to-head-in-cadillac-ats-3-6/
 
#313 ·
An important thing to remember is, when reading C&D, R&T, or any of the magazines that sell for 30 cents an issue, and full of car ads, they are required to love every car, whether it's a Lexus, BMW or Cadillac.
 
#327 ·
#328 ·
Some of you have mentioned having interest in the new Porsche Cayman. Here's a Youtube marketing video showing the new Cayman. I think they did a nice job with the car.
No, nobody mentioned that.

Nor did anyone in the F30 forum mention that we wanted you to continue to tell us how you have a Porsche. We get it. We're not impressed. What, the kiddies in the E90 forum don't worship at the alter of beden anymore? Not our problem.

BJ
 
#358 · (Edited)
It's undeniably a serious rival to the 3 series.
I disagree. Like I've said before, our ATS demo is already creaky, rattling and the engine and brakes feel very tired. This is at 2,000 miles. At this isn't even mentioning sales of the ATS vs the F30.

I am very anxious for the day when the United States makes amazing cars that can compare to German automobiles. I think the ATS is a desperate, but good step in the right direction for the wrong manufacturer. Cadillac should be focusing on building the Ciel, not a plasticy XTS and ATS that they are trying to compare to the German competition.

/shrug
 
#359 ·
Not to hijack the Cadillac thread but I'm driving a new (2k miles) Dodge Challenger loaner car and I have to say I am very impressed with the suspension and the cockpit. The steering wheel is almost as nice as a Bimmer's. Don't like the 5sp Slushy though.

It is very quiet, no creaks or rattles either.

It is nice to see that the US is putting out something like that. I imagine the top end model with 470HP or whatever it is, would give an M3 a run for its money in the quarter mile.
 
#363 ·
The day has come and Cadillac beat BMW at its own game. Thumbs up to GM.
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate all of the factual and real life experience you have backing this statement.

You must be delusional. Camaro SS would demolish a 335 stock for stock straight line and on the track. BTW I was born in Europe and owned German, Japanese and US made vehicles. German ones were by FAR least reliable.
A Camaro SS does 0-60 in 4.8 with real world results of around 4.9 or 5.0, and a 335i does 0-60 in 4.6 with real world results of around the same. Do your research before you come here stating 'facts' or calling others delusional. And on the reliability subject I can tell you, from constant personal experience, that Japanese and German cars are far more reliable and well built than domestics.

Cheers.
 
#365 · (Edited)
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate all of the factual and real life experience you have backing this statement.

A Camaro SS does 0-60 in 4.8 with real world results of around 4.9 or 5.0, and a 335i does 0-60 in 4.6 with real world results of around the same. Do your research before you come here stating 'facts' or calling others delusional. And on the reliability subject I can tell you, from constant personal experience, that Japanese and German cars are far more reliable and well built than domestics.

Cheers.
:rofl:

A Camaro SS does 0-60 in 4.6 seconds and 1/4 mile 13.0 @ 111 MPH and a F30 335 does 0-60 in 5.3 seconds and 1/4 mile 13.8 @ 103 MPH. See those are FACTS that are backed by a test (see links below). Real world difference is significant between the two, just look at the trap speed or 0-130 mph, not even close.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-bmw-335i-sedan-test-review

http://media.caranddriver.com/files...010-chevrolet-camaro-rspony-car-twin-bill.pdf
 
#364 ·
Not to hijack the Cadillac thread but I'm driving a new (2k miles) Dodge Challenger loaner car and I have to say I am very impressed with the suspension and the cockpit. The steering wheel is almost as nice as a Bimmer's. Don't like the 5sp Slushy though.
I completely agree! I think the Challenger cockpit is actually a pretty cool place to be. It's relatively big inside, has a soft ride and makes a great noise. I do however agree with jfox that it's not a performance machine unless you're in a straight line. But hey, that's what it's built for! Fun car.
 
#366 ·
How about this.

Let's all pick the one specific feature of our favorite car that beats that same feature on every other comparable car (let's assume, even if for a moment, that there are actually cars comparable to our favorite car, because there aren't, but let's just pretend), then decide that the feature we picked is the only feature that matters, and declare our car the best because of that feature. Then, let's give the manufacturer of our car a thumbs up.

I think that would make for great conversation.

-Corey
 
#368 ·
I can fit more beer cases in our Honda Fit that our old 2007 E91. Plus it's super cute.

:thumbup: Honda.

:bigpimp:
 
#380 · (Edited)
Sorry to hijack this thread, but I drove up from SE FL to PA yesterday on I-95 N. I made a decent time driving straight through and going 1,126 miles in 16 hours and 45 minutes in my Tahoe. The trip is usually very boring with mostly trucks, and the elderly driving mobile homes, Toyotas, Cadillacs and small SUVs. This trip however, I saw some things on the road that were more interesting.

There must be a car show somewhere this weekend as I passed numerous exotic car carrier trucks like Reliable and etc., and many show cars in tow like hot rods, and I saw a 427 Cobra in blue with white racing stripes being towed by a matching pick up truck.

I stopped at a rest stop in S. Carolina, and while taking my dog for a walk, I saw an Acura NSX parked next to a Ferrari Testarossa. Both owners were sleeping in their front seats so I didn't have the opportunity to closely check out their cars. I have not seen an NSX on the road in years.

I saw four Audi car carriers loaded with sedans heading north from Florida. I wonder what port they enter down there to deliver as far north as S. Caolina? I love how each car has a white car cover on them with Audi logos.

I saw two BMW car carriers loaded with SUVs in S. Caolina. They only had the white shrink wrap on the top of the new vehicles. I would not want the front SUV that had 1/3rd of it's rear end hanging off over the truck cab and begging for road debris.

From Georgia through N Carolina, I saw 2 newer 7 Series BMWs with Canadian tags, A Porsche Panamera, 4 Porsche Carreras including 2 cabriolets, 2 Corvettes, 3 F30 sedans (two driven by older women and one by a college aged female), 5-6 E90 BMWs, and an E46 M3 convertible in Georgia driven by an attractive women appearing to be in her mid 40's and driving like she owned the road (I immediately fell in love!)

Then I'm in S. Carolina with my cruise set at 77 MPH in a 70 MPH speed zone and passing a truck. I look in my rear view mirror and I see a car snaking between cars and going in excess of 100 MPH. I'm about 2/3rds passed the truck and he's on my rear and flashing his high beams. I finish passing and go into the right lane and he speeds by. It was a black Cadillac CTS coupe (I don't think it was a CTS-V) driven by a guy looking to be about 30. Later, I'm entering Virginia and see flashing police lights up the road. I pass and see they had nailed the Cadillac and had the driver facing his car with his hands on the hood. I laughed my ass off.
 
#381 ·
Yeah if you speed like that in the Old Dominion, you're not going to have a good time. :)

Probably had a radar detector too.

-- on the Camaro SS point. Yeah it pulls like crazy- even with the automatic. I cannot imagine what a ZL1 would be like to drive. But- its like driving in a cave. And the trunk was a joke. And the automatic wasn't nearly as nice as the sport auto in the 335i.

Not sure many people are cross shopping Camaro SS vs BMW 335's, well other than me. But I'm weird like that. :bigpimp:
 
#383 ·
Not sure many people are cross shopping Camaro SS vs BMW 335's, well other than me. But I'm weird like that. :bigpimp:
Camaro SS is a POS for a track enthusiast. Camaro ZL1 however is drool worthy.
 
#386 ·
As Chris90 indicated earlier, after several reviews complained about the ATS 2.0T manual being notchy, and not able to reach 60 in second gear, GM stopped delivery of all the 2.0T for fixes. Based on the initial user review after the fixes, it appears the fixes were for real.

It will be interesting to see if MT will try to do another comparo, since it was MT reported the news that GM stopped all 2.0T shipment for the fix. Sounded to me GM is very serious about this.
 
#387 ·
We are staying at the Boca Raton Resort and Club this month. The valets tend to park the fanciest cars in front of the main entrance. Tonight there were two Bentley Continentals (1 coupe 1 convertible) a Ferrari California Convertible, a Maserati GT Convertible, 2 S Class Mercedes, an E93 (328i) and a Cadillac CTS. :eek:

Haven't seen either an F30 or an ATS yet.

CA
 
#394 ·
We are staying at the Boca Raton Resort and Club this month. The valets tend to park the fanciest cars in front of the main entrance. Tonight there were two Bentley Continentals (1 coupe 1 convertible) a Ferrari California Convertible, a Maserati GT Convertible, 2 S Class Mercedes, an E93 (328i) and a Cadillac CTS. :eek:

Haven't seen either an F30 or an ATS yet.

CA
I love being able to see cars like those on the road after reading about them in some magazine. I didn't see many exotics on the road in Jupiter when I was there until this week. Maybe it's too soon in the season?
 
#388 · (Edited)
The problem with this comparo is it lacks objectivity. I have not driven the ATS yet but there is nothing special about the 3.6l engine. There are only two top of the line engines that matter in this class, the N55 and the Audi S4. Not necessarily because of the amount of power but the tq and the broad range in which it's available. In my X5, which is almost 5000lbs, the N55 can do 80mph at less than 2000 rpm and if I punch it responds in an instant, thanks to the 8 speed ZF transmission, same as the F30. Lets not forget that the transmission in the ATS has been determined to be inferior to the ZF transmission.

What I also find odd is the placement of the c350 above the f30, something I have never seen before.

I still have a G 37, looking to get a 335i so I would be the target audience for the ATS, after all I can save a bit by getting the ATS. However I would rather wait for the next G37 than get the ATS. After having driven all offerings of the 335i and the S4, it's tough to pass these two up.
 
#392 ·
Lets not forget that the transmission in the ATS has been determined to be inferior to the ZF transmission.
The ATS in the above comparo has a 6spd ZF transmission.

Speaking of 6spd vs. 8spd, I can't say yet whether 8spd is definitely superior than 6spd. I drive in manual mode most of the time, I don't know if 8spd will be too busy in manual mode. Next time when I do another comparison test drive, will try to see how manual shifting with the 8spd feels.

One thing I don't quite like the design of the new auto shifter in BMW, it is for you to look at, not to play with.
 
#389 ·
While procrastinating with some work stuff, I came across a review by this same Jonny Lieberman comparing the C250 to the 328i that reduces his credibility quite a bit. Jump to 4:15 of the video where he talks about how BMW "smartly stuck with hydraulic assist" for the steering of the 2012 model. Did I miss something? Did the switch occur in 2013? Was there some wrong info out there for a while?
 
#399 ·
Getting back to the original review from MT. First of all any guy that gets excited because of a red seat belt is disqualified.

Second not one thing was mentioned on the automatic transmission. The reason I say this is because I had a 2009 C350 AMG package and yes I understand they engine is a lot more powerful but the 7-speed transmission is basically the same. That transmission when compared to the 8-speed BMW is TRASH. Doesn't shift as fast, searches on down sifting when pushed hard, bogus down on when asked by the driver for immediate speed. Again this guy not mentioning one thing about the transmission tells me he is an idiot. Notice I am not saying one thing about the ATS since I have never driven the car

Also lets talk about entire space. The C350 have very little when compared to the BMW, and another thing a about this moron, if you are going to try and compare an AMG styled C350 you should be comparing it to a M-packaged 335i. And in terms of package it similarly to a Mercedes and you will see you are within a couple of thousand of it.

Now driving, for my money my 2013 335i Sport with the adaptive package is the best 4 door sedan I have ever owned. On sport setting you have just the right amount of road feel, totally controllable, super fun to drive and FAST while being comfortable at the same time. Notice this guy starts out with the 335i saying that its such a great car to drive and then comes back with its vague, something artificial etc. Sorry its either a great car to drive or it sucks dude, it can't be both. That wish washy statement along should tell you this guy should tend a 7-11 store and leave the driving critic to people that know something about cars.

Last statement I want to make here is the MT. This transmission can't be the same that I had in my 2007 328i. Its incredibly direct, light, so easy to use its almost like having a automatic. The only other MT transmission I have driven that compares to this one is the 2010 Boxster S and at the time I thought everyone should just copy their MT transmissions. Who know maybe BMW did.
 
#403 · (Edited)
Last statement I want to make here is the MT. This transmission can't be the same that I had in my 2007 328i. Its incredibly direct, light, so easy to use its almost like having a automatic. The only other MT transmission I have driven that compares to this one is the 2010 Boxster S and at the time I thought everyone should just copy their MT transmissions. Who know maybe BMW did.
He was clear about a few things. First they were all automatic, second, he was only interested in two things, which according to him are the two most asked about.

How user friendly was the infotainment system, and how did the car feel driving on the back roads.

The guy did make enough bad jokes or comments that one can easily question whether he was even serious about the conclusion.

I will definitely not rely on this comparo, rather consider it one sample point. There should be plenty of reviews to come. But I do agree with his conclusion on the road feel.
 
#413 ·
Just finished watching the video. How do they only test a car on one type of road to declare it the winner? That road looked like a dream to drive on and the tester said the Caddy was a bit harsh. Well, if that was harsh, I'd invite the tester to join CA in NYC for a little drive and then report back. These mags so often test cars on cool roads and tracks, which offers little in the way of real world buying advice for those of us who live in cities.
 
#415 · (Edited)
The ATS did not make it to C&Ds 10 best. The G35 and CTS made it in their first year.

About the review, MT says the 3ers figure eight times showed its handling was inferior to the other 2. I checked and the G37s did the figure 8 in 25.9s. The S4 at 25.6s. The S4 is AWD. If anything, the 3er is as good as it gets iro handling in this segment. You are not going to find many reviewers concurring with MT on their rankings
 
#417 · (Edited)
I did a quick scan of the article, the complaint from the reviewers seemed to be, while the 335i sport added weight, BMW did not tune the suspension specifically for the added weight. They implied the suspension in the 328i was well tuned for its weight, and BMW just put the same suspension in the heavier 335i and called it a day.

The other part is the chassis in the ATS, it was more European than the European models.
 
#419 · (Edited)
Agreed but the 335i only adds 150 pounds. It's not an extreme weight gain. It's still a light weight in its class at 3500 pounds. I think MT was starting to split hairs to eke a win for the ATS. The BMW wins on

0-60
1/4
Figure 8 (their handling test)
NVH
Transmission
Tech (per mt)

The ATS
Interior (highly subjective, if not questionable)
Handling because it feels like a Nissan 370z, aka G37, which I have.

I don't know but the more I look at this comparo the more stuff I find that don't add up.
 
#421 · (Edited)
Agreed but the 335i only adds 150 pounds. It's not an extreme weight gain. It's still a light weight in its class at 3500 pounds. I think MT was starting to split hairs to eke a win for the ATS. The BMW wins on

0-60
1/4
Figure 8 (their handling test)
NVH
Transmission
Tech (per mt)

The ATS
Interior (highly subjective, if not questionable)
Handling because it feels like a Nissan 370z, aka G37, which I have.

I don't know but the more I look at this comparo the more stuff I find that don't add up.
The 370z would be very different than the G37. The 370z reference was to point out that the ATS felt more like a sport car (such as the 370z), while the others felt like what they were supposed to be, sport sedans.

Basically the ATS chassis and the road feel on the twisties were very important for those guys, so much that they were willing to overlook all other elements of the cars.
 
#422 ·
That's all I had. You are right about the Z being a sports car but the G has always been understood to be very close to its cousin in driving dynamics. However I doubt this is going to change a lot of minds of young guys shopping for the top end models. Like you said let's wait until the dust settles to pass judgement. It will be a long wait:)
 
#423 ·
If the Z is a sports car, then the 1 series is a sports car, cause that's all the Z is, it's a G sedan with a shortened wheelbase and coupe body. I don't think you can make a sports car out of a family sedan platform. Nissan hasn't made a sports car in years.
 
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