BimmerFest BMW Forum banner

How to CHOOSE the right oil for you for your E39

142K views 85 replies 26 participants last post by  Hov5 
#1 · (Edited)
How to CHOOSE the right oil for you for your E39 based on what is printed on the can!
(Note: Please improve as needed so as to form a reference for others!)
Double Note: Read the spec sheet to select oil based on other characteristics (such as viscosity at other temperatures than freezing & boiling).

Choose motor oil by:
(a) quality,
(b) cold start,
(c) viscosity,
(d) type, &
(e) cost (in that order)

Never by brand!

a) QUALITY: Perhaps the most contentious of oil-selection issues shouldn't be an issue at all, because quality selection is (almost) as simple as reading the can. The can should say:
- LL-01 Approved (not "LL-01 recommended").

Note (thanks to 540M-Sport): LL-04 spec oils are NOT recommended for BMW's with gasoline engines in North America. From BimmerFile.com "What we can tell you now is that for most newer gasoline BMW models in the US the required oil must meet BMW LL-01 (approved not recommended for) specifications. There is further confusion because BMW LL-04 is recommended in gasoline and diesel engines for most other countries. In the US it will be required only for the new Advanced Diesels. The issue with the LL-04 oil in the US is that even though the sulfur content in gasoline has decreased in the US it is still not consistent. The inconsistency in levels makes the LL-04 oils not recommended in the US gasoline engines. Since the new sulfur requirements of diesel in the US require consistent levels LL-04 can be utilized in these applications."

The problem is BMW LL-01 approved oil is listed on the can of very few motor oils readily available in the USA (e.g., the only Mobil-1 that is approved is the Mobil1 SAE 0w40 variety; and you might be able to find German-made Castrol Syntec SAE 0w30 European Formula if you're resourceful, or even Pentospeed SAE 0W30, or Pennzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5W-30, or Valvoline SynPower SAE 5W-30, etc. For more choices, please see this document listing the available LL-01/LL-04 motor oils available for sale in the USA.)

Strictly speaking, in the USA, for E39s, LL-01 is all you need to know about quality. Never assume a brand name automatically equates to the desired quality. It doesn't. Never did. Never will. Not all Mobil1 oils are LL-01 approved, for example.
- If you can't find LL-01 rated oil, then some will tell you any fully synthetic oil rated ACEA A3/B3 or better meets BMW specifications; but again, the problem is finding an oil locally available that has ACEA A3/B3 printed on the can.
- Otherwise, historically, at least in the United States, the main reliable measure of quality has been the American Petroleum Institute (API) "Service" rating (buy API SL for older BMWs or API SM or better for newer BMWs) printed on every can of oil sold in the US. This more readily available API quality designation is chronological, i.e., SA, SB, SC, SD, SE, SF, SG, SH, SI, SJ, SK, SL, & SM. Over time, this API quality designation moved higher and higher in the alphabet as more and more problems are specified and overcome by the petroleum engineers (note SA is special in that it is unspecified, and note each specification exceeds the prior specification).
- Note that anyone who says "use Castrol" or "Mobil1", without suggesting the BMW or ACEA or API quality rating, isn't providing enough information to make the right quality decision for you; brand and price and label hype are meaningless for this purpose (for example, even some BMW-branded oils don't meet BMW specifications for M cars).

b) COLD START: Depending on where you live, pick an appropriate Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) winter (W) rating based on the range of temperatures you expect to start the car in while that oil is in the vehicle and on what is recommended in your owners manual.

It's a simple but important decision. If it's really cold where you start the BMW, use a lower SAE W rating; if it's warm, then use a higher SAE W rating (the point being to minimize the SAE spread, even for synthetics but especially for dino juice). Just remember the oil will be in the car for a few months so you have to factor in the coldest expected temperature during that time period.

Bear in mind, the SAE W rating only holds true for the first few minutes no matter what climate you live in.
This rating is probably the least understood of all motor oil descriptors, but, since most wear occurs at startup, it's an important measure. Since engine oil viscosity decreases logarithmically with temperature, the SAE W rating of, say "SAE 10W", tells you that the oil "acts like" a straight SAE 10 weight oil would act at 0° Fahrenheit (°F). Remember, it is NEVER an SAE 10 weight oil! It just acts like an SAE 10 would at 0°F (i.e., before the engine is warmed up). After the engine is warm (212°F) the SAE W rating is meaningless. It is important to understand that a straight 30 weight oil acts exactly the same at engine temperatures as does a 5W30, or 10W30, or 15W30 motor oil. It is also important to understand the logarithmic decrease in viscosity still applies at all temperatures below 212°F, even though the only listed temperature is the 0°F W rating. See included charts for more details.

c) VISCOSITY: Depending on engine factors, you'll choose a warmed-up SAE oil viscosity (measured as kinematic or Saybolt) that suits you and your engine. Just pick a warmed-up viscosity that your owners manual lists as an option. That's pretty much it.

People make a much bigger issue of selecting the warmed-up viscosity than they need to. In my humble opinion, if you don't already know, before you got here, exactly which warmed-up viscosity you prefer, then simply choose the warmed-up viscosity by one of the other factors below this one in the selection criteria.

Bear in mind, it is known for dino juice the greater the spread between the SAE W rating and the SAE warmed-up rating (measured at 212°F)
, the greater the tendency of the dino oil to carbonize in your engine. Synthetics, I'm often told, do not have such a propensity to carbonize so the viscosity spread is much less of an issue. However, for dino juice, the simplest advice is to lean toward the closest multi-weight spread listed in your owners manual.

d) TYPE: Almost all BMW posters recommended synthetic motor oil for longevity, reduced wear and tear on gears, reduced incidence of oil oxidation, and lower sludge formation (as compared with similar quality traditional motor oils); but there are always tradeoffs, not the least of which are price considerations.

In addition, the viscosity spread, if you're going with something like a 0W40, will tend to carbonize much less with synthetic than with dino juice. However, as with many of these factors, if you change your oil religiously, in my humble opinion, it really won't make that much of a difference even theoretically; and from a practical sense, it will make even less of a difference, mostly due to the cost differential balancing out the benefits.

e) COST: Duh. As low as you can get. Buy Internet. Buy bulk. Stock ahead. If you buy good-quality (as measured by the API or BMW rating) oil, brand is nearly meaningless (see Consumer Reports' canonical diatribe on motor oil quality consistency over time).

Note (thanks to 540M-Sport): One really needs to read the specification sheets which are available online for most oils. You will find pretty significant differences between 5W-30 synthetic oils, both in viscosity at cold start up, and at operating temperatures.

More about LL-01 here ...
If you want to truly be an oil expert, read here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/aehaas/

 
See less See more
1
#2 ·
Thanks bluebee.

However, I have my own personal thoughts about engine oil. Having had a Honda Civic, Volvo etc. with 300K miles using standard dino oil, I have mixed feeling about synthetic and BMW LL01 oils.
If one has money to buy synthetic, by all means, use synthetic.

I am a "practical" kind of person and am also cost-conscious (I have a tight budget to operate the car) and go for the most bang-for-the bucks and since I live in cold climate:

- WINTER: 5W30 synthetic oil for easier cold start.
Whatever brand I can get for $3.99/qt. Menards hardware store here goes on sales quite often and I can buy synthetic for $3.99/qt.

- SUMMER: 10W30 dino oil for $2/qt.

I change my engine oil every 4-5K.
My daily trip is 12 miles/each way.
At 106K, my engine runs smooth like butter.

BMW "LL" is for marketing purpose of long-life oil change and does not sound very scientific at all. So I don't pay attention to LL01 spec. since I change my oil every 4-5K.

My 0.02...:)
 
#33 ·
First, I believe Cn90 knows what he's talking about... and I have read such kinds of posts by many others also. I try to stay within specs, but oils are so hard to find and price through the roof. So, I just use any oil as long as it's "good". Right now I'm using Mobil1 0-20 fully synthetic. I normally use 5-30W Mobil1 fully synthetic, or 5-30W Penzoil full synthetic - I mostly stick with Full Synthetic oill in 5-30W, unless a great deal comes along, like this time 0-20W (which I'll be changing in 2,000 miles). I figures it'll be a good way to wash out the engine (with quick oil change within 2K miles). I've got 140K miles. P.S: I usually change within 5K miles.
 
#3 ·
Thank you bluebee, this is very informative. I kindda follow the same path as CN90. but if I can get an ACEA A3/B4 or BMW LL01 for the same price as any other synthetic I'll go for it. Plus just like CN90 I will never wait more 5k miles to change the oil.

One thing I would like to add is if any of you can check this http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/RelativePerformanceToolIntro.html you will find the difference between dino oil and synthetic.

IMO, I will never use dino oil again.
 
#4 ·
I will never use dino oil again.
I'm perfectly happy with the Mobil1 5W30 & 5W40 synthetic (California almost never gets cold).

There is a great description of the reasons behind BMW owners-manual recommendations by edjack here in a recent thread.

Basically, I conclude, if the viscosity range is within the BMW recommendations, and it meets the temperatures you'll expect between now and your next oil change, then, I conclude, it's perfectly fine for your E39.

 

Attachments

#5 ·
Whenever BMW recommends something that's easier than harder on the face of it, it tends to be a bad idea (lifetime fluids, long-life oil, run-flat tyres). Just sayin'. (OTOH I like to stay with BMWLL oils).
 
#6 ·
Check this link out... read all of it... more then meets the eye on the oil debate: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/aehaas/
Flow rate at cold temp MOST important.
Warm oil weight at 10 NEXT most important
Oil PSI at higher RPMs NEXT most important.
Syn or dino less important, but Syn can do the above better the dino, hence why Syn is preferred... lots to read before even going to the bobistheoilguy web site.
 
#7 ·
Bluebee, sorry, but I found a minor error in your oil recommendations, related to the "cold start". This is an important characteristic, but is not chosen based on the SAE "W" weight rating. You find out the cold flow characteristics of an oil, by looking up the oil data sheet on the manufacturer's website. The key data you need to look for is the "Viscosity @ 40 degrees C". That is still pretty warm spec (100 degrees F), but unfortunately, as cold as they go...but good for comparison. Compare Mobil 1 0w-40 with most synthetic 5w-30 oils, and you will see that the Mobil 1 is considerable thicker at cold start. Granted it is a 40 weight at operating temp, and is probably the thinnest 40 weight you are going to find at cold start, but you need to see the trade off. In other words it is not going to flow as well at cold start as a 0w-30 or 5w-30 synthetic...even though it rates a "0W" on the SAE rating.
 
#8 · (Edited)
The key data you need to look for is the "Viscosity @ 40 degrees C".
Good point. I don't doubt that this, and many other interesting and useful criteria are printed in the spec sheet.

I should have noted that my recommendations assume you need to make a choice on two oils in the store based on what is printed on the can.

Given only these printed-on-the-can items:
- marketing rah rah
- brand name rah rah
- SAE rating
- API rating
- any other rating printed on the can (e.g., LL or ACEA, etc.)
- price
how I'd choose the oil is listed in post #1 above.

If, however, we were comparing oils based on having all their spec sheets lined up, then I'll let you guys point out the major items to compare against as tradeoffs (as there would now be muuuch more information available to you).

 
#9 ·
If you want to get serious about it, go to the bobtheoilguy web site and READ, READ, READ. After about 20 pages you will start to see what guys that are into oil and oil analysis based on chemical test results think... bottom line, flow rate at cold temp and adequate oil PSI at higher rpms is what you are after... assumes the oil mfg can get a 10 weight oil at 200 degrees (which not all can).
 
#10 · (Edited)
READ, READ, READ
There are many opinions on motor oil selection and change interval.

When opinions vary, a good solution is simplicity.

Here's an excerpt from here that outlines the simplicity while taking into account the complexity:

Oil and Filter Intervals
<o></o>
BMW recommends their Castrol 5W-30 synthetic motor oil in all BMWs except contemporary M cars, for which they recommend their Castrol 10W-60 synthetic motor oil. The factory oil change interval is controlled electronically, but is presently about every 15,000 miles. If you are running BMW***8217;s oil, I recommend an oil and filter change interval between 5,000 and 7,500 miles.
<o></o>
I use Red Line synthetic oil (www.redlineoil.com) in 5W-30, 10W-40, 15W-50, or 20W-50, depending on factory recommendation, ambient temperatures, and severity of service (track use, sustained high rpm use), with a drain interval ***8211; 7,500 to 15,000 miles depending on engine and severity of service. Under racing or track conditions I***8217;d use a short interval; same for carbureted engines which tend to get some fuel into the oil. I would run the same intervals with very high end ***8220;designer synthetics***8221; such as Agip, Amsoil, Lubrication Engineers Monolec Ultra, Lubro Moly Vol-synthese, or Motul.
<o></o>
All other commercially available synthetic oils, 5,000-7,500-mile drain intervals.
<o></o>
BMW***8217;s High Performance Synthethic 5W-30 and their Motorsport 10W-60 can go 7,500 miles.
<o></o>
Old fashioned petroleum oil, same viscosities, 3,000-to-5,000 mile drain intervals
<o></o>
The following information is courtesy of Motorwatch.com:<o></o>
***8220;Redline is Group V (polyol ester) based (POE or esters).
<o></o>

***8220;Amsoil and Mobil-1 are Group IV (poly-alpha olefin) based (PAO or synthesized hydrocarbons SHC).
<o></o>

***8220;Castrol Syntec and all the others calling themselves synthetic are Group III (hydrocracked slack wax).
<o></o>

***8220;The petroleum motor alls are all mineral oil based and make up Group II.

***8221;We really should group Red Line by itself, and put the others in separate categories (according to the groups) because their performance is so different.

***8220;See motorwatch>AutoMotiveBible>Oil Change Intervals>oil classifications
http://www.motorwatch.com/images/oilclassifications.jpg

***8220;AutoMotiveBible> Oil Change Intervals>oil change intervals
http://www.motorwatch.com/images/oilchangeintervals.jpg***8221;<o></o>

<o></o>
Original BMW filters are recommended for price and quality, or MANN, Mahle, Bosch, or Knecht filters
 
#11 ·
This summary guidance for selecting motor oil, from this thread today, is useful to repeat here:

Given the BMW "official" recommendations, I still buy oil by applying these criteria in the order listed:
1st. quality = highest API rating only (all others disregarded)
2nd. cold-start = expected ambient temperatures (desired SAE W rating)
3rd. warm viscosity = desired viscosity (desired SAE rating)
4th. slipperiness = type (synthetic or dino, both work, I go synthetic)
5th. cost = lowest available
6th. If necessary to break a tie, I limit the spread between #2 & #3

As cn90 intimated, in the end analysis, anything more complicated is overkill, keeping in mind, marketing people LOVE overkill when they can make something simple "sound" complex (PT Barnum was right), they can manipulate the price inversely proportionate to the stupidity of their consumer & directly proportional to the price of the investment (the engine) that is being protected.
 
#12 ·
#13 ·
Here is the simplest way to choose a motor oil, for those that want a definitive answerhttp://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx
Hey! Guess what. I just had an epiphany!

Notice what you said. One one hand, you mention simple. On the other hand, you note that a definitive BMW-approved list already exists.

Hmmmmmmmmm........

I just realized, from another thread, that there are (might be?) THREE camps of knowledgeable people when they choose oil.

And, I'm assuming, if you're in one camp, you won't easily switch to another religious camp - yet - there will always be someone in another religious camp wanting to convert you.

Check out my newly forming hypothesis here:
- The three "oil" camps (no, this is not another "what oil should I use" thread)
 
#14 ·
My revelations after reading this thread from Bill:
-
Hey Blue, check out this great oil article-really

  1. Synthetic refers to "properties" and not ingredients nor how it's made (same with semi-synthetic, i.e. "the big lie").
  2. The stock oil lasts the life of the engine; viscosity breaks down fast.
  3. "Synthetic oils made from pure PAOs or Diesters hold viscosity longer.
  4. Minimize viscosity spread by DIVISION (not subtraction)!
  5. Just because it says API SM doesn't mean it has been tested to be an API SM (I still need a better description of the visual-identification cues to understand how to reliably tell the difference)!
 
#15 · (Edited)
K.I.S.S. "keep it simple stupid"

Use BMW 5w30 synthetic. The old BMW guys at the service and parts counter at my local dealership, as well as the younger guys all recommend this oil. It's genuine "BMW" parts so it certainly is not going to be worse than any other oil out there. At a similar price to Mobil1, I don't know why anyone wouldn't use it.... I use it for every oil change, along with the BMW oil filter that I also buy from the dealer.... total cost of filter and 9 quarts = $77. Probably the same or maybe even a little less than getting Mobil1 and a filter from anywhere else. I do all my oil changes this way since acquiring my car at 46k miles. I change the oil and filter every 5K-7K miles and my M62 runs great at 106k miles and running.

All this debate over which oil and why.... again, K.I.S.S.
 
#18 ·
All this debate over which oil and why.... again, K.I.S.S.
I think there is only "all this debate" when people are of different religions:
- The three "oil" camps (no, this is not another "what oil should I use" thread)

Within any one religion, there is really very little debate!

I always use Mobil 1 5W30 anyway!
That's one of the worst, for viscosity spread. Just so you know.
30/5 = 6

If you used 10w30, that would have a viscosity spread of only 30/10 = 3.
15W30 would be even better (i.e., 30/15=2).
Same spread as with 20w40 (i.e., 40/20=2).

But, in reality, the viscosity spread matters little (look at the BMW recommendation, for example, in post #4 above).

"All long life oils approved by BMW are suitable for operation at any ambient temperature. You consequently do not need to pay specific attention to the viscosity class".

You car will not blow up no matter what viscosity you use. Yes, wear and tear is mostly in the startup, and especially in cold temperatures, so, use your common sense. See, for example:
- What are the key factors that govern (all) our decisions when it comes to E39 fluids?

0w oil in my m54b25?
Look at the BMW attachment in post #4. The viscosity choice, if reasonable, doesn't really matter.

You seem to be in cold country, so 0w seems just fine; but, for folks like me, any common viscosity would work just fine. The only caveat I would add is to minimize the spread (divide the cold viscosity into the hot viscosity and minimize that number if at all possible).

Hmmm... I just realized ... that doesn't work with "0w" weights. So ummm.... how do you calculate the viscosity spread when the cold viscosity is zero?
 
#16 ·
Yesterday, I paid $5 a quart at K-Mart for Mobil 1 5W30. A great sale price that definately helped influence my decision on which oil to use. Bought 14 quarts so I'm all set.

Jerry

PS...... I always use Mobil 1 5W30 anyway!
 
#17 ·
Hey bluebee,
Just a quickie, would you in all honesty recommend using a 0w oil in my m54b25? It's done 190,000km. I'm planning to so an oil change next Monday for the first time and I'm just stuck on this.
Also I don't know when the last time my air filter and spark plugs where changed. Should I change them while I'm at it?


Sent from my iPhone using BimmerApp
 
#19 ·
I'm in warm country :) gets up to 47 degrees celcius. Thanks for that info bluebee!!! I might stick with a 5w30 BMW recommended. I might just leave the car 10mins warm up before driving :)


Sent from my iPhone using BimmerApp
 
#20 ·
#22 · (Edited)
Bluebee,
Of course there is marketing and promotion of the relationship between BMW and Castrol, that is a mutual agreement between them, so get over it. What is incontrovertable, is BMW and Castrol do INDEED share technical information and collaborate on product development. It is up to each individual owner to decide if that weighs enough in their decision making process on whether they choose to purchase the "official" BMW branded oils, or simply purchase one of the other BMW "approved" oils, of which there are several alternate brands http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx. Or in the alternative, they can simply buy whatever they like, and ignore the manufacturer....their car, their choice.

Remember the phrase is "BMW recommends Castrol"....BMW does not DICTATE or MANDATE. ;)
 
#23 · (Edited)
so get over it.
I'm not sure where you're going with that. I simply ask for the answer. That's all. And, I back up whatever answer is found, with whatever material is found.

And, I already know the answer (from prior research).

All I was doing today was consolidating because someone asked, over here:
- Castrol vs. Bmw

To help 'that' person, I had to dig up these links. And, I 'hate' digging up links twice. So, if that is what you mean for me to 'get it over with', no, I'm sorry ... I refuse not to consolidate links so that every single question has a previous answer.

The entire goal is to start the inevitable NEXT similar question where we left off.

That's something I'm not going to 'get over' with.

It is up to each individual owner to decide if that weighs enough in their decision making process on whether they choose to purchase the "official" BMW branded oils, or simply purchase one of the other BMW "approved" oils,...Or in the alternative, they can simply buy whatever they like
I think we took this obvious assumption to the next level (which is the entire point of these combined discussions) when we began to discuss the various dogmatic decisions 'people' make when selecting their BMW oils:
- Fundamental BMW fluids decision-making religious camps (1) and algorithms specific to motor oil selection (1), coolant choice (1), & gasoline dogma (1)

Again, that's the beauty of these forums.

When I started this thread, I was perplexed by the seemingly bewildering array of 'recommended oils'; but now, much later in the game, I realize that people fall into one of three major dogmatic camps.

And, they are in those camps, seemingly, for life.

It's the wiring of their brain. Some wholeheartedly follow BMW recommendations (and that's OK); others find an equivalent, perhaps more convenient or more price effective solution (and that's OK); while the third group refuses to drink the Jim Jones punch and simply uses selection criteria that everyone else uses (and that's OK).

Remember the phrase is "BMW recommends Castrol"....BMW does not DICTATE or MANDATE. ;)
I don't think anybody said otherwise so I'm not quite sure why you bring that up.

All that matters, with regard to Castrol, is that people who see the molded oil-filter cap (or the ingenious BMW/Castrol joint-marketing blurbs), who are smart enough to ask the question of us, simply get the answer that we've determined.

Which is elucidated in these threads (AFAIK):
- Why does BMW mold "Use Castrol" on the oil filler cap (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) & what is the definitive list of BMW-approved motor oils (1)

If you know of BETTER threads that answer the question for newbies, as always, I'm all ears (and fingers).

Good luck!
 
#24 ·
Yes, if you are looking for a definitive answer. The only way to it is to drop your often repeated "dogma" term and start looking at this by DOCTRINE. To form your doctrine, you need to reasonably peice the information to formulate it.

The first information comes from the builder of the engine, they made it, and they should have a very good idea of what is required to ensure reliability and longevity:
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

Second, you need to broaden your knowledge of oils in general, and how they interact with engine temperature, versus ambient temperature. And how the various qualities related to wear, and operation. One of the best reads I have seen, that seems to be well accepted for by experts is this:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

bluebee sorry if you mistook my "get over it" comment, I was simply saying you are always repeating that BMW recommends Castrol for marketing reasons...of course they do! ;) But that is obviously NOT the only reason they recommend Castrol.
 
#26 ·
Yes, if you are looking for a definitive answer.
Again, I'm totally unsure where you're going with this. Sorry.

To be clear, we have a reasonably definitive answer for what it means to the OP when he reads "Use Castrol" on the oil filler cap.

And, we have three reasonably definitive answers (depending on what 'religion' you subscribe to) to what oil you'd use.

  1. If you're in the first camp - you'd use only what BMW says to use.
  2. If you're in the second camp - you'd use that - or anything you deem reasonably equivalent.
  3. If you're in the third camp - you'd use all of the above - plus many others that are of reasonable quality based on well known and well used and well published standards.
So, from a 'definitive' standpoint, I think if someone asked me "what oil would I use", I'd have absolutely no problem.

The problem comes with someone asking me what oil YOU would use; or what oil "MatWiz" would use; or what oil "Doru" would use; or what oil cn90 would use (actually I know exactly what oil cn90 would use because he thinks like I do).

My point is you just can not answer that question until you know what religious punch the user wishes to subscribe to. Once you know that, it's easy to tell them which oil fits the criteria.

If that's what you mean by "definitive", well then, it's definitive as lone as you define the religious camp the "questioner" wants to live in.

The only way to it is to drop your often repeated "dogma" term and start looking at this by DOCTRINE.
Well, we 'did' ask in the thread what to call it, whether it be 'camp' or 'dogma' or 'doctrine' or 'religion' or whatever. The camps will be the same no matter 'what' you call them (a rose is a rose ... ).

Call them categories. Call them thought models. Call them mind sets.

You can call it whatever you like. I use all those terms interchangeably.

The first information comes from the builder of the engine, they made it, and they should have a very good idea of what is required to ensure reliability and longevity
Ummm.. this is the same "builder of the car" who specified plastic DISA valves, plastic pulleys, a plastic cooling system, buton VANOS seals, recycled rubber window molding, idiotic FSUs, leaky thrust-arm bushings, ridiculous window regulators, asinine cluster & MID pixel tape, brittle PBT plastic headlight adjusters, poorly tack welded ABS control module steel wires, weak vapor barrier adhesive, 20K mile shocks, too-short wiring looms, fragile steering wheel & seat controllers, etc. (all that just from memory).

BMW gets no credit for engineering on any of those issues. But, what's your point?

  1. Everyone in the 1st 'mind set' agrees with the BMW-approved list.
  2. Everyone in the 2nd 'mind set' agrees with the BMW-approved list.
  3. Everyone in the 3rd 'mind set' agrees with the BMW-approved list.
I don't see a single person 'disagreeing' with the BMW-approved list of motor oils to use in the E39.

What I see, at both ends, is people in the first list disagreeing with everyone else - and people in the last list agreeing with everyone.

You just happen to (probably) be in the first list. That's all. It's pre-ordained, based on which list you're already in, by your very nature. And that's OK.

Since I'm in the third category, I think everyone is right. And that's OK.

The problem isn't you or me. We're set for life. (And that's OK.) Neither one of us is going to have an engine failure because of what oil we used. Never ever ever. It just isn't going to happen.

The problem is the confusion of the NEWBIE who asks "what oil?" and then gets lists of oils in the three different categories and then, confusingly to him, all the arguments in between (almost exclusively from those in the first category denouncing all the other thought models).

Nobody in the third category is doing the argument. I doubt anyone in the second category is either (all they do is select oils).

All the argument comes from those in the first category ... which is hilarious ... when you think of it ... 'cuz ... for them ... the decision is so very simple!
 
#27 · (Edited)
This is a philosophical discussion (not a technical one) that has far reaching social implications.

Here's my new epiphany:
- Those in the first 'mind set' argue AGAINST all other mind sets.
- Those in the second 'mind set' don't disagree; but they find additional oils meeting the same criteria.
- Likewise, those in the third 'mind set' agree with everyone above & choose their own oils based on standard criteria.

The epiphany is that almost all the argument seems to be coming from those in the first philosophical category who, it seems, just can't stand the mind set of the other two philosophies.

That, it appears (to me, just now), is the fundamental reason for the 'endless oil' arguments!

The only way for the arguments to end is for the first mind set to destroy the other two mind sets (which isn't going to happen); so the first mind set will propagate the argument forever. The other two mind sets aren't doing the endless arguing.

This, I think, may be a fundamental philosophical insight.

Agree? Disagree? Add value?
 
#28 ·
There is a big difference between Doctrine and Dogma. You may wish to google each individually to see the difference in definitions. I try to make my choices on vehicle maintenance based on Doctrine, not Dogma. Thus, I avoid the philisophical , and stay technical. ;)
 
#30 · (Edited)
I must apologize for the tone of my prior couple of posts. I'm just sick and tired of the 'what oil' discussion. I'm OK with the 'what philosophy' discussion; but there is nobody on the planet who can MOVE anyone from one mind set to the other. It just won't (realistically) happen anymore than I can talk a Jew into being a Christian or a Muslim.

It's my opinion, after reading hundreds of 'what oil' threads, that the oil people choose has more to do with the way their brain is wired than anything we will ever say in these forums.

And, what oil they use can be predicted with almost 100% certainty (within a range of equivalents, of course) if you know what 'mind set' the person belongs to.

  • BMW-approved oils only
  • BMW-approved oils and similar oils only
  • BMW-approved oils and similar oils and quality oils only
So, it just irked me that anyone would even think to try to move me out of my 'mind set' with ANY argument, let alone the argument that the pope knows best (it's just not going to happen and my car isn't going to blow up either because of it).

So, I apologize for my tone. Knowing all that I know now, I absolutely refuse to get into a 'what oil' discussion (other than to point people to the mind-set descriptions to let them choose their own religion).

Anyway, as a courtesy, I will address your points directly.

There is a big difference between Doctrine and Dogma.
As I said, the oil mind sets can be called whatever anyone wants to call them (they would still be the same). I used 'em interchangeably as I'm rather secular. It really doesn't matter to me what the 'camps' are called.

But, for the record, here is a google result of the doctrine vs dogma:
- Doctrine: What the church believes is truth;
- Dogma: What the church proposes as truth.



I try to make my choices on vehicle maintenance based on Doctrine, not Dogma.
I guess, converting this to BMW, that makes sense from 'your' standpoint:
- Doctrine: What BMW (the pope) believes is truth;
- Dogma: What BMW (the pope) proposes as truth.

Thus, I avoid the philisophical , and stay technical.
Ah, you're missing the point. Either that, or you're arguing with the absolutely wrong person. Because I refuse to get into a 'what oil' argument now that I've researched this and tried to boil down hundreds of 'what oil' threads into a cohesive 'what oil' thread (I'm no longer the same idealist that started this thread).

When I started this holy quest for the right way to choose oil for your BMW, I was wholly unaware that the result would be impossible because of differences in the people's inherent belief systems.

  • Jew
  • Christian
  • Muslim
You can argue all the technical dogma/doctrine you want but you're never going to convert a Muslim into a Jew (at least not realistically). That's precisely why there is so much "which oil" argument here! People don't realize this is a dogmatic discussion! It can never end.

All I will say from now on is that the belief systems exist. And I'll characterize them, but not the oil to use because that easily falls out of the belief system itself:

  • BMW-approved oils only
  • BMW-approved oils and similar oils only
  • BMW-approved oils and similar oils and quality oils only
The reason for the endless 'what oil' discussions is that people are wired for different decisions when the end result really doesn't matter. If, for example, people were putting in Marvel Mystery Oil into their oil, no matter what they believed as truth, the real truth would end up with a ruined engine.

They'd learn the real truth, the hard way.

But, as with all religious arguments, there IS NO REAL TRUTH when it comes to what oil is best for your BMW! (You 'think' you know the truth; but so does everyone else. And you don't agree. And, it doesn't matter because nobody is putting Marvel Mystery Oil in there. They're all putting decent oil in their engine.)

Do you see what I'm saying? The whole problem is that the philosophies (or mind sets or religions, or whatever you want to call the wiring in people's brain) falls into THREE categories:

a) Those who use what BMW says to use
b) Those who use that plus what seems similar
c) Those who use those two plus whatever else works just as well

After all this research, my only role on bimmerfest, from now 'till the day I die, is to advise people of those three 'mind sets'.

You don't get to choose your mind set anymore than you chose your religion (for the most part, it is foisted upon you by your belief system).

So, if you're of the first mindset, then 'you know' exactly what oils to use; and if you're in the second mindset, then you know exactly what oils to use plus you'll find equivalent oils; and if you're in the third mindset, you'll have all of those oils plus anything else that works to use.

they know considerably more about the engine and its requirements than you, I or anyone else is likely to ever know....that is a fact.
It is.

They have also taken into consideration many factors that we may not have ever even thought of.
You believe in the infallibility of the BMW god. And that's OK. I don't. And that's OK.

Just like religion, the real proof is that nobody is dying because of which religion they chose (yeah yeah, I know, they're being KILLED by each other but that's not what I mean).

It turns out cn90 and I are not ruining out engines by using the oil that we chose to put in there, the fact that BMW knows engines notwithstanding.

If I chose to be a Christian or a Jew, the 'real' God wouldn't be sending lightning bolts down on me any more than the God of Engines will destroy my engine because I just today put Mobil1 5W30 from Costco.

So, the whole point of arguing oils (just like arguing religions) is pointless.

Let the people choose their own religion and let them choose their own oil. It won't make a difference either way.

Nobody's engine is blowing up either way.
 

Attachments

#29 ·
Regardless of BMWs shortcomings with the many systems on the car, they know considerably more about the engine and its requirements than you, I or anyone else is likely to ever know....that is a fact. They have also taken into consideration many factors that we may not have ever even thought of.
 
#32 ·
For the record, in response to a 'what brand of oil' question over here:
- E46 (1999 - 2006) > First Oil change (brand of OIL)

One reply was:
The main point is we analyzed why so many people ask the same question, and, why, at the same time, there was no easy agreement like there is on other issues.

We found out, collectively, that it's a dogmatic issue - and therefore - like religion - has no true right or wrong answer - while - at the same time - has a right answer for everyone (which depends on the doctrine they wish to believe in).

We also looked far and wide to find to find evidence of engines 'ruined' by conscientious use of non-BMW-approved quality oils (e.g., Mobil1 10W40) ... and found nothing to support the oft-stated claims.

In addition, we looked at 'similar' engines - and again - found nothing to substantiate sole use of any one of the three doctrines.

Like religions, they all serve the same purpose to the same end.

The beauty of this analysis was that we simplified the results so that there was no disagreement - among similar doctrines.

If someone asks 'which oil', we merely need to determine 'which doctrine', each of which has their clearly defined favorite oils!
 
#34 ·
If someone asks 'which oil', we merely need to determine 'which doctrine', each of which has their clearly defined favorite oils!
I realized, after handling scores of these 'what oil' threads, that if someone actually asks what oil, they 'probably' (based on anecdotal evidence) want you to give them the BMW-approved list.

The second group never asks, other than to doublecheck their comprehensive calculations.

And the third group can read the 'quality' on the can so they don't ask either.

I believe Cn90 knows what he's talking about...
Yes. He's pragmatic. Logical. And sane.

I just use any oil as long as it's "good".
That's logical for the third group of people in this group; yet it's anathema to the other two!
a) Use only bmw-approved oils (based on LL standards)
b) Use only bmw-approved & similar oils (based on LL standards and specs)
c) Use only bmw-approved & similar oils & any other 'good' quality oil (based on LL standards and specs and other well-established standards)
 
#35 ·
What utter bollocks! There's a specific spec in the owners manual (LL01) and it even mentions the temporary use of ACEA A3,B3 oil (0/5W30 or 0/5W40) when LL01 isn't available. But wait I forgot that BMWNA forgot to put that info into the U.S owners manual, and consequently we have all this confusion, but on U.S BMW forums. BMWNA have a lot to answer for.
That recent post above from this thread below:
- E46 (1999 - 2006) > First Oil change (brand of OIL)

The response:
I think you wholly missed the point!

In doing so, you unwittingly made my main point!

To wit, some clearly have a 'dogmatic' attachment to the BMW LL/ACAE doctrine. Nothing wrong with that.

But, plenty of other people don't have that dogmatic attachment to the BMW doctrine; they don't disagree with BMW's dogmatic selection of motor oils ... they just have other high-quality oils in mind that work just as well for their BMW.

As in most religious fervor, some (apparently) can't comprehend any other opinion than the LL01/ACEA doctrine clearly espoused by BMW.

On the other hand, others fully understand that dogmatic opinion; yet they simply aren't as fundamentalist about it.

That dogmatic disagreement is fundamentally why there is so many inconclusive 'what oil' discussions on the forums!

For further dogmatic details, see:
- Fundamentally, why are there so many 'what oil' threads?

For further technical details, see:
- How to CHOOSE the right oil for you for your BMW
 
#36 ·
To further fan the flames:

I don't plan to go 15,000 miles between oil changes. Likely will do 5,000 between changes, which is less than I have typically done on my other vehicles (every 10,000 miles with M1 5w-30). If I'm not trying to get "long life" from my oil, how badly does my oil need to meet the LL-01 spec?
 
#37 ·
That is part of the debate. No one really knows. Posts have been made that the LL-01 spec covers more than just the oils ability to stay in grade for 15,000 miles. It would appear that many people have gotten away with using non LL-01 oils...so the choice is really yours. I have occasionally strayed from using non LL-01 oils on rare occasions. In fact I have Mobil 1 5w-30 in my car now...but I never go more than 7500 miles.
As much of this thread shows, it is much debated, and "up to what you are comfortable with". BMW is clear on their recommendations...
 
#38 · (Edited)
You ALL Oil Gurus, here's a Question :

Since we have many highly knowledgable oil gurus here, I thought I'll ask 2 questions ~

1. I have seen many photos posted here of Mobil1 5-30W. Many people mentioned the Mobil1 5-30W also.... BUT it's not LL-01 approved. There's no LL-01 mentioned on it. The Mobil1 0-40W is LL-01 approved, however. So, why we have so many guys who encourage the "approved" BMW oil, say Mobil1 5-30W is a good choice? (It is however, Corvette recommended, so I guess good enough for BMW too, but not LL-01 mentioned)

2. I have put 0-20W (full synthetic) recently. I know it's not the right voscosity recommended. But I needed to change oil quickly, becuase the old oil was getting dirty. I intend to run this oil for only 2K miles or so. I figured this will also flush the engine, and will go back to 5-30W. Is that bad for the car? (by the way I'm getting better gas milage with it. Getting 23.5 MPG, before 21-22 mpg) I intend to go back to 5-30W, but now not sure if I should use the Mobil1 5-30W (full synthetic, since it's not LL-01 approved). Castrol 5-30W European is hard to find.

What are you views on the metioned concerns?!!! Thanks in advance!
 
#39 · (Edited)
Since we have many highly knowledgable oil gurus here, I thought I'll ask 2 questions ~

1. I have seen many photos posted here of Mobil1 5-30W. Many people mentioned the Mobil1 5-30W also.... BUT it's not LL-01 approved. There's no LL-01 mentioned on it. The Mobil1 0-40W is LL-01 approved, however. So, why we have so many guys who encourage the "approved" BMW oil, say Mobil1 5-30W is a good choice? (It is however, Corvette recommended, so I guess good enough for BMW too, but not LL-01 mentioned)

2. I have put 0-20W (full synthetic) recently. I know it's not the right voscosity recommended. But I needed to change oil quickly, becuase the old oil was getting dirty. I intend to run this oil for only 2K miles or so. I figured this will also flush the engine, and will go back to 5-30W. Is that bad for the car? (by the way I'm getting better gas milage with it. Getting 23.5 MPG, before 21-22 mpg) I intend to go back to 5-30W, but now not sure if I should use the Mobil1 5-30W (full synthetic, since it's not LL-01 approved). Castrol 5-30W European is hard to find.

What are you views on the metioned concerns?!!! Thanks in advance!
Why do you think 0w-20 will "flush the engine"?....other than a lower viscosity, what properties does it have that would give it the ability to "flush" your engine?

BTW the Castrol product many of us use (me included, most times) is Castrol Syntec 0w-30 European Formula. With rare exception, it can only be found at AutoZone stores.

As far as a general answer to your question...I think we will never know, unless we got into the head of a BMW engineer to understand the reasons for the LL-01 specification, and if we knew the exact technical requirements of the LL-01 spec. Bluebee will tell you it is all about "marketing" and some conspiracy between oil manufacturers and BMW to corner the oil market. ;)

If you are uncomfortable or question your actions, the simplest, and safest answer is to simply follow the manufacturer's recommendations:http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

If you feel you are smarter than BMW, you may wish to study up a little on oil here:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

Best wishes
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top