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will BMW fix the steering?

24K views 226 replies 31 participants last post by  markl53 
#1 ·
I have owned a few 5s (540i, 530xi) and a 335i. I am strongly considering the f10, but after a few test drives in it, and its competition (mercedes, infiniti, audi), i am downright shocked at how un-BMW the steering is... I drove a 535i and the 550, and I am really a little turned off, almost lexus-like in its steering. At speed, the competitors are better, but that is an opinion.
Nevertheless....
I am sure that BMW does r&D and has done the market research, and this is where they want to go. I have no problem with that, but for the "enthusiast", does anyone think it will be changed back, rather than pander to the masses?

I understand that BMW has to market the car to a wide variety of tastes, and there are probably fewer enthusiasts than there are others who like the numb and dead feel, but is there any recourse for us... It is a tough issue to look at, because maybe the enthusiast is a different target than the masses, and a company probably needs to market to the masses.
 
#57 ·
I don't read auto mags any more (unless it's in a doctor's waiting room), and have driven 4 different F10's at Ultimate Drive events. All of them left me underwhelmed.
 
#60 ·
I have driven the car, and lexus as well
There is no doubt, that when car and driver called the steering "spooky", it is spooky to me, a former owner of several 5 series cars.
BMW is moving away from "sports" with its car, and that is fine, but it is not exactly what I am looking for. It is a great luxury car however, no doubt. Safe too. But that steering detracts for me, it may not for others. Most car mags seem to agree on the steering.
Remember at C&D, it finished behind the infiniti M and the audi. And they are BMW fans! That is telling to some degree to me, but i dont want to pretend that it matters to everyone.
 
#62 · (Edited)
So went on yet another F10 test-drive this weekend, and two things came up that I think are relevant to whats being discussed here.

First, the test drive was for my wife, not me... I want a new BMW bike AND a 550ix.. the only way this will happen is if we trade in her 1.5 year old 335. She is afraid that the 5 is just too big for her; I say lets go drive one and see. We get in a plain 535 (cause the dealer had no 550, no Xs obviously, and none with any type of sports pacakge). She drives it and thinks its a bit bigger than her three and more luxiourious, but that she likes how smooth the steering is compared to her 3! :rofl: I at this point am doing everything to contain myself from laughing out loud since I configured the 335 for her (maxed), and think that the steering in the F10 is a bit numb compared to the 3... I just personally want the larger size and luxury, and can sacrifice the connectedness (and with full sport package I think it drives pretty dang well.... Im waiting to test drive an iX before committing one way or another), but she is happy with the 'smoothness' of the car (Full disclosure were both in our early 30's).

Second, while we are there, this relatively small dealership sells 2 of the 5 F10s they have on the lot from walk-up older couples (to use your metric, +50yrs) They both buy white car, beige interior, oyster headliner -- one a 528, one a 535, both with little to no options (premium package only I believe). The guy I'm working with says they represent about 2/3 to 3/4 of the sales. The rest are passionate enthusiasts who come in with varying ranges of knowledge but like to order custom cars with their exact specifications. I guess the question is who does BMW truly respond to?

I think that the enthusiast, though in the minority, is the more learned and vocal, and the wishes and desires of these people tend to push for things that will benefit all. BMW of course will have to look at how their profits are affected overall in any attempts to answer to enthusiast demand for their 'mid-range' sedan.
 
#70 ·
I think that the enthusiast, though in the minority, is the more learned and vocal, and the wishes and desires of these people tend to push for things that will benefit all. BMW of course will have to look at how their profits are affected overall in any attempts to answer to enthusiast demand for their 'mid-range' sedan.
Willing to bet you the two older couples were more "profitable" to the dealership than any two of us would have been. They probably negotiated down from MSRP, instead of up from invoice, and thought they got a steal for getting a $1,000 discount off sticker.

I think in the end it will be the same argument as those who feel the need to run the clutch and stick-shift themselves -- as technology supersedes human capability, nostalgia is often misconstrued as better performance.
Well for this 6MT driver, nostalgia is also construed as more fun. :thumbup: Be honest now: if someone offerd you a pristine P51D, wouldn't love to be behind that big ole, old tech Merlin?

PS Assuming you are still on active duty: THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE.
 

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#63 · (Edited)
Yes, and "enthusiasts" (especially those who have less than 3 year old cars and not ready to buy any car as yet:) ie excluding solstice and a few others) will want to brag how numb the f10's steering is :) Why not check out the Lotus' steering and see how numb the steering is on the E46 and E90, yes and the F10, and the many enthusiasts who will dispose of their 3 series and buy the Lotus :)
 
#64 ·
For every car manufacturer, profits come from the vocal minority opinion leaders who create the buzz, not the silent majority who buys based on brand and looks (though they too are affected by the buzz). Moreover, profits come from the marginal sales represented by the enthusiasts, who are more likely to switch brands based on performance. I have driven BMWs for 30 years, stepped up from a 3 to 5 when I bought my E39 M5, and was about to switch to the Audi S4 because of some of these BMW "numbness" issues. I did stick with the 500ix Msport (on boat, leaving Bremerhaven tomorrow), but am still somewhat ambivalent. Though I am heartened that the ix has hydraulic steering (according to this board) and not electronic, and my packages including the sport shifter should maximize performance. I am though troubled that BMW is achieving performance "virtually" - not by engineering the car for performance, but rather "emulating" it by electronics. In contrast, the S4 is built for honest performance - suspension, steering, etc. But it's a bit small, and there is still that 30 year loyalty factor.... Now if the reliability starts to suffer - forget about it!
 
#66 ·
I am though troubled that BMW is achieving performance "virtually" - not by engineering the car for performance, but rather "emulating" it by electronics. In contrast, the S4 is built for honest performance - suspension, steering, etc.
Well, the car has to be designed at the maximum performance level, regardless of how that performance is achieved right? Meaning, if the driver has the ability to adjust performance parameters for themselves, the car was still built for the highest level available. To me, turning the dial to less than max just means to car is currently working lower than what it is capable of. I'm not sure you've lost anything in the end.
 
#65 · (Edited)
I find this thread very interesting. In March of 2001 I bought a 330 cab. I had ordered it 8 months earlier, because the cabs were new then and considerably backordered. Apparently some customers (NOT driving enthusiasts, no doubt) complained that the steering was too heavy in the 2000 E46s at parking speeds. BMW responded by lightening the steering feel of the 2001 models. The enthusiasts then rebelled, labeling the 2001 models "The Ultimate Parking Machine", an underhanded reference to BMW's "Ultimate Driving Machine" slogan.

Enough fuss was made by the enthusiast side, and BMW responded by offering 2001 owners a chance to revert to the heavier feel steering rack at no charge. I did the retrofit, and I was happy with the change, although I must say the E46 cabs never handled all that well anyway.

For the 2002 models, BMW quietly equipped all standard E46s with the heavier feeling rack, and the issue was over.

Nowadays, of course, with electronically controlled systems, one can have both extra assist at parking speeds, and less boost at higher speeds. Unfortunately, when it comes to steering feedback, I think both come up short.
 
#69 · (Edited)
"The thing that sets BMW apart from others for me is that they seek technology for performance first, then comfort and convenience"

If this is true how do you explain the weight gain and the soft springs on the F10 that compromises even the Sports setting with dhp to the soft side?
These are to me both signs of putting comfort and convinience ahead of performance, especially dhp in it's current setup is technology to cater for the Buick crowd not the enthusiast.
 
#71 · (Edited)
What quackbury says is so true. All of the manufacturers in this segment produces cars with more outright performance in terms of speed than most buyers use. The question to me for a road car is not mainly "how fast" but "how fun". Anyone saw Top Gear yesterday? There were two examples, first Richard Hammon that prefered the Camaro over the E-class AMG even if the AMG crushed the Camaro in performance and then all of the presenters who prefered the Quattroporte over the Panamera and the Rapide even if it had by far the lowest performance but it stirred the senses in a way that the others did not, it was more fun.
 
#72 ·
Since I've already taken us OT .... here's a guy who might well prefer the tactile over the tech. (Watch what he does at the end):



I grew up in Reading PA, and had the pleasure of seeing him perform at the Reading Airshow several times. He'd fly this jaw-dropping routine in his P51 "Old Yeller", then climb out and repeat it in the stodgy Aero Commander Shrike. Jimmy Doolittle described him as the "ultimate stick and rudder guy". Somehow, I don't think it would be as impressive watching him fly a RPV.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled kvetching.....
 
#73 ·
I fly for a living (yes, I'm still active duty, and appreciate your thanks), and I am certifiable aircraft buff, though I really have no desire to go flying in light aircraft and i loathe the airlines.

I much rather enjoy spending my free time and money on motorcycles and cars! I ride a ridiculously overpowered motorcycle for the same reason you drive a 6MT -- it's fun! I realize what solstice and others are saying about the perceived compromises; but feel is one thing, actual performance is another.. until we have full, independent track data we wont know if they truly sacrificed performance for the obvious additions of luxury that are in the new F10. That being said, the opinions of those who actually own the car (especially if you owned an E60 prior) are the ones of most value to me -- my 3 test drives in no way match your empirical data, and I look forward to your posts

The elephant in the room are the M types... The M3 is obviously there for those who want lighter, more connected ride. The F-10 550 comes close to M3 performance numbers, but unless you are at Nurburgring are you going to notice the difference? I think the M5 will be the ultimate performance sedan... I just don't know if I will be able to afford it.

Will BMW fix the deficiencies in the current F10? I say probably at some point because the hardware is more than adequate, all that is required is some software tuning -- but I dont think that all F10 drivers will even want such a change, if and when it is offered.

B-1

Oh yeah by the way Bob Hoover is the s*#t... read Chuck Yeager's autobiography sometime, and even he says what a badass pilot Bob Hoover is.
 
#76 ·
I fly for a living (yes, I'm still active duty, and appreciate your thanks), and I am certifiable aircraft buff, though I really have no desire to go flying in light aircraft and i loathe the airlines.
Since you're a B-1 driver, was the BUFF part a play on words?
 
#74 ·
It's interesting that the "B-1 Pilot" made the observation about technology. I recall that many B-1s were crashed because pilots didn't trust the electronics that were guiding the plane and took over control...then crashed. The logical extension of B-1 Pilot's argument is the Google car (see Sunday's New York Times) that controls itself without human intervention. According to Google, it doubles highway capacity and is safer than human driving. But what would all of us on this board do? Sit in the car and pretend we're driving like our two year olds who sit in a fake car with a fake steering wheel and go "zoom-zoom"?
 
#75 ·
No we would keep a "real" car for pleasurable driving when we wanted to. I have a 1989 240sx with a skyline engine in it that I LOVE. Whenever I'm too annoyed with the f10's steering I will drive that for a day. I disconnected the power steering as the engine is from a RHD car and rerunning the PS lines would have been a pain. Talk about responsive and fun to drive steering! Would be terrible for a DD but on occasion there is nothing better.
 
#81 ·
There is a lot of technical points here, but car and driver AND consumer reports agree on this issue: the steering is terrible.
Of course, if one is a mainstream driver (ie lexus, lincoln, caddy) then you will like the steering.
It is not a question of the steering being better or worse per se... it comes down to preference of a cadillac fleetwood feel vs a sports feel.
 
#82 ·
"It is not a question of the steering being better or worse per se... it comes down to preference of a cadillac fleetwood feel vs a sports feel."
I experienced this first hand today. A collegue of mine bought his wife a 328 and when we briefly discussed it he told me: "Man is that steering heavy, it's supposed to be a luxuary car, it should not require such effort to drive it. I kept quite...
 
#85 · (Edited)
#86 · (Edited)
Correct, it is described as "SPOOKY" by car and driver

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q4/2011_bmw_528i-short_take_road_test

BMW is going for the lexus/cadillac/buick market with the 5, and why shouldn't they? After all, lexus sells a lot of cars... it just isn't right for what i want... But I say, if you like it, go for it.
I guess that's the point of the DHP. In COMFORT and NORMAL mode it competes with Lexus and Cadillac. In SPORT mode it's a BMW and it competes with AUDI and MB. That's why the switch is right by your right hand, it's so easy to switch from one to the other, which I do all the time depending on how I feel and the driving conditions.

BTW, I test drove a RWD 550i last summer. I don't recall much of a difference in feel between the electric steering on the RWD and the hydralic steering on my 550i xDrive.

Also, these guys at C&D an Consumer's do not drive the cars every day for months on end. Bimmers seem to grow on you over time. Consumer's complained about the controls as well. That's because they don't have time to fully learn them and understand the amazing intelligence and driver friendliness of them once you get used to using them. I am just amazed as to how easy to use and driver friendly the controls and ergonomics are in my new car. Puts my 650i to shame.
 
#87 ·
Did Car and Driver have DHP or the standard version? IAS or the the standard version?
 
#89 · (Edited)
For me, the drag race times are just not as important as feel. I am not excited about numbness, etc. I have driven a few 5s. Again, i have no problem with the people who like the numb and dead feel. It will certainly sell to the masses! I am more interested in an "enthusiast" feel. If you look back at the previous generation of BMW, there was a steering issue in the past. Posts here lauded BMW... but when BMW changed the steering to more of an enthusiast feel, they kept it that way...

So BMW has made steering mistakes in the past. For me, the current steering is a mistake, but I am hopeful that BMW will return to the enthusiast roots I desire for a 5 series. If they don't, however, I understand, as there is a market for the more numb feel. It is great for some drivers and not for others. It just depends on what one is looking for. I am sure that there are several people here who like the steering. I bet my mother would like it too. That is great, I have no problem with it. To each his/her own. Some people like black cars, and others like white. Some people want satellite radio, and others dont. Some people like a precise enthusiast feel, others like the more mainstream feel that several car companies like lexus have offered. I think it is great that we have a choice - it is not about the steering being better overall - for some it is better this way, and for others it isnt. It is a simple preference. I lean more to the car and driver article after testing.

When Car and driver lauds a BMW, the story is quoted here. There is nothing wrong with agreeing or disagreeing with their testing. I think their description of the "spooky steering" is rather accurate from my experience, but I would not at all be upset if you like it! Everyone has to find what works for them. I am hoping they decide to fix (change) it.

Best of luck no matter what you do.

Here is the portion of the article from the October 2010 Car and Driver, which I find enlightening:

Spooky Steering

Unfortunately, the 528i shares with the rest of the 5-series its new electric power steering. Although weighty, the setup feels artificial and provides zero feedback. Its imperturbable tracking and smooth feel will likely endear it to more-laid-back buyers, but we consider this a frightening departure from what has made BMW great. Fishing in the mainstream may be profitable, but it nets the kind of buyers who painted Toyota as an unapologetic killing machine.


The electric power steering is something all 5-series buyers have to live with, but the 528i***8217;s only other shortcoming***8212;not being a rocket***8212;isn***8217;t. Were we deciding to spend $45,000 for the 528 or $50,000 for the 535, we***8217;d be tempted to jump to the more powerful car. (Actually, were it the test car in question, we***8217;d pare a few items from the $13,325 pile of options and spend that money on the engine upgrade instead.) But it***8217;s easier to be cavalier with money when you***8217;re writing imaginary checks. For customers spending real money and finding the difference harder to swallow, as well as those attracted by its more affordable lease rates, the 528i is a fine and capable alternative to the 535i.
 
#90 ·
I am more interested in an "enthusiast" feel.
I see this 'enthusiast' argument thrown around as the end all argument way too many times, so how does one become an enthusiast?

Is there a card in a cereal box? More likely a multi-year subscription to some car magazine so that when someone argues with you, you simply state, "I'm an enthusiast, see what -insertFavoriteMag- says."

Here is the portion of the article from the October 2010 Car and Driver, which I find enlightening:
Well here's something else C&D wrote:

At 100-plus-mph speeds on the highway, the steering borders on scary light in its regular setting. It's certainly accurate, however, and the sport setting clears up much of the lightness problem, but it still has a larger-than-we'd-like dead spot on-center and could use even more heft, in our opinion. Worse is that the level of tingly, tactile feedback coming through that thick-rimmed wheel seems to be dialed back a bit compared with the last M3 or even a current-gen 328i or 335i.
Yep, that's C&D's first opinion of the current M3.

If you prefer something, fine. If you don't like something, fine. Do you really need a magazine to tell you what you like?

So sad.
 
#91 ·
Here is the portion of the article from the October 2010 Car and Driver, which I find enlightening:

The electric power steering is something all 5-series buyers have to live with, but the 528i's only other shortcoming-not being a rocket-isn't. Were we deciding to spend $45,000 for the 528 or $50,000 for the 535, we'd be tempted to jump to the more powerful car. (Actually, were it the test car in question, we'd pare a few items from the $13,325 pile of options and spend that money on the engine upgrade instead.) But it's easier to be cavalier with money when you're writing imaginary checks. For customers spending real money and finding the difference harder to swallow, as well as those attracted by its more affordable lease rates, the 528i is a fine and capable alternative to the 535i.
Of course, I'm sure they said similar things about the E60 528i in comarison to the E60 535i. I've read C&D for going on 25 years. I usually find their articles informative and consistent. Of course I like when they like the car I'm planning to buy. But I've noticed a difference in the last several years and I think it has to do with a new group of writers and editors. They're no longer consistent and they pick on very small issues, IMO. In an early F10 535i report they complained the steering was too heavy. Then later in the full report they said too light. OK, maybe different drivers were reporting, but still, there has to be some baseline. Now they're saying the 528i isn't a rocket, well, we all know that don't we? Nothing new here. Now E60 folks will latch on to this latest statement and consider the F10 528i "bad". The new one probably performs better than the E60 and as I said, I'm sure in previous comparisons, the old 528i was no rocket either. To all the E60 fanboys out there, just live with an F10 for a week or so and then pass judgment rather than repeating over and over the C&D quotes.
 
#92 ·
I think it comes down to, again, whether or not one likes the more numb feel vs the more the precise steering feel. There are plenty of those who are looking for a lexus/buick feel with a BMW badge, and I think BMW has done a great job with catering to that group, even here on bimmerfest. I am glad they are happy with the result. I just hope that BMW listens to some of the reviews about steering (which they have changed in the past as well when they made a mistake). Nevertheless, there probably a large market for the numb feel, as evidenced in the people who like the f10 steering. Enthusiasts may want something different.
 
#94 ·
I think it comes down to, again, whether or not one likes the more numb feel vs the more the precise steering feel.
The F10's steering is as precise as my E90. And you are saying that the 7 series 2007-8's steering is superior to the F10's?? Your views on the steering is clearly opposite mine.

Hello, I am a 335i owner, and a former 5 series owner of mult 5 series. I need to get a larger car than my 335i coupe which is great. I was sold on the new 5 series - until i drove it and experienced really terrible steering - car and driver has commented extensively about it, and I concur it is really a different place then I want to go.

I am thus considering a 7 series, 2007-8, after I saw that CPO examples are pretty well priced in the low 40s. That is amazing for cars with 30k miles!

So, some general questions (i dont want a turbo charged engine, so newer 7s are a little out of the question).

How reliable is the 5 liter v8
What can I realistically expect for mileage in a 75% highway (75 mph) and 25% city driving environment?

Which options are problematic?

How easily damaged are the sport package 20" wheels?

Any other general information? This would be a family car, and I have 2 smaller children.

I appreciate your input and candor.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5534090&highlight=#post5534090
 
#93 · (Edited)
If BMW sticks with a numb feel on the steering or other performance compromise to appeal to the Lexus crowd or the Chinese crowd, then I am done with BMW and I will shift over to Audi or Porsche. However I believe that this stuff will be fixed by BMW as they have done in the past.
 
#95 ·
If BMW sticks with a numb feel on the steering or other performance compromise to appeal to the Lexus crowd or the Chinese crowd, then I am done ......
I understand what you mean by the Lexus crowd... People who want a "Lexus" ride buy one and you are referring to those people.

Please explain what you mean by Chinese crowd... Are you saying Chinese people like numb feel on steering? Are you referring to all Chinese people, because many many of them don't have cars although that is changing... Or a particular subset of Chinese?

Where did this Chinese thing come from? How about the Japanese? Hell, they make the Lexus, don't they like the numb feel on steering too?

Pharding, I don't always agree with your posts, but usually I understand them.

Paul
 
#110 ·
"the lack of feedback is a fact"

How can you say it is a fact when feedback is by definition only a sensation in one's hands. In order to state it as a fact it has to be something that is objectively measureable. How would you go about measuring the amount of "feedback".
 
#114 ·
First of all, congratulations on your new 550i. I am sure it is a stunning car.

Now to the point. Subjective or not, the steering feel on the F10 (and arguably the E60 before it) is different than ever before in any BMW. For the past 40+ years, car magazines and owners have praised BMW sedans for being sporty and having a great road feel. The F10 is very different. It may very well be a great car, but good or bad, it is not the same. BMW is clearly taking a different direction with the 5 series. That's okay.
 
#118 ·
Yes, it is different. Some will think it is better, some will think it is worse. ...and those who are resistent to change, won't like it regardless.
 
#124 · (Edited)
I am no PHD either, and maybe I'm being simplistic. However, when I bought my 2008 535i after driving a 5'er with active steering for three years, I thought the 535i's steering sucked. I thought something was wrong with it. However, it was just a matter of getting aclimated to a non-active steering optioned car. Albeit other issues, I have no problem with the steering on my 535i now, I actually love it.
 
#127 ·
That's how it works 95% of the time because most people have an issue with the force needed to operate the wheel. That's why you hear people complaining about it being too light or heavy eventually you get used to it and then come to love that type of steering. That is different from the communicative steering we are discussing and even that is not an issue for 98% of drivers as most people prefer the luxurious insulated feel rather than a rougher and vibrating wheel. Also pay no attention to the people who say if you criticize something about the car you hate it and should trade it in for an Audi. It's ridiculous talk by people who feel personally offended if you say one bad thing about "their" car. I have seen many posts where pharding and solstice both praise their cars and state they are overall excellent vehicles. Some people just can't stand dissent.
 
#147 ·
Someone asked about the F10 in germany. I don't know how good your german is but here is a link to a similar forum in germany
http://www.bmw-drivers.de/forum-82/fahrbericht-test-bmw-530d-f10-t-47107.html

If you are a bit rusty I can summarize that it's pretty much the same comments as given by the sport enthusiasts here. To synthetic feel, no sports sedan but a very comfortable car. Lack of driving dynamics etc, etc. Though they more compare it to an Audi than Lexus. I guess Lexus is not selling enough volume in Germany to exist in their world.
 
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