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Is Mike Miller Maintenance for me?

28K views 143 replies 26 participants last post by  335i Driver 
#1 ·
Im trying to get a reliable maintenance schedule for my 330i. I've read that mike miller is popular but could be outdated for my model. If it is outdated then what would you guys recommend and if mike miller is still good where the heck do you get a copy because everywhere i've searched has nothing.
 
#3 ·
Mike Miller updates his "Old School Maintenance Schedule" regularly so I don't know why you think it might be outdated, especially for a 330i which is definitely an older, non-turbo model, so not a long of things to update there anyway.

As KT said above, e-mail Mike directly for the latest version. You can only get the Roundel magazine if you're a BMW CCA member. If you're not a member you should join...by clicking on my link below.
 
#5 · (Edited)
So what do you recommend?
 
#7 ·
As Mike states in his Old School Maintenance Schedule, he is merely repeating the maintenance schedule that BMW used to push before they had the 4 year/50,000 free maintenance program. Since the current selling model for BMW is to have buyer to lease a car for 3-4 years and then trade in on the latest model or update to a different/higher model, these buyers will never pay for maintenance and thus have no need for the Old School Maintenance Schedule. For some people, this is a great way to have a relatively new, maintenance-cost-free vehicle.

For people who buy their car with the intention of owning it for more than 3-4 years, or possibly 10 or more years, and want it to last 100,000-200,000 miles, then one might want to change the oil more often than the 15,000 miles now recommended by BMW based on their current sales model. These are most likely those that also buy a used BMW, probably out of warranty already, and want it to last another 5-10 years or more. Many of these people will also do their own maintenance at least relatively simple things like oil changes, brake fluid flushes, and brake pad and rotor replacement.

Mike also recommends proactively replacing parts are historically known to be weak or historically have a known service life before they fail to avoid more expensive maintenance costs when these parts do fail.

And a sample rate of one person is far from statistically significant.
 
#8 ·
As Mike states in his Old School Maintenance Schedule, he is merely repeating the maintenance schedule that BMW used to push before they had the 4 year/50,000 free maintenance program. Since the current selling model for BMW is to have buyer to lease a car for 3-4 years and then trade in on the latest model or update to a different/higher model, these buyers will never pay for maintenance and thus have no need for the Old School Maintenance Schedule. For some people, this is a great way to have a relatively new, maintenance-cost-free vehicle.
Things change over time. What was applicable yesterday may no longer be applicable today. For example we no longer replace spark plug wires, distributor caps, adjust carburetor jetting / floats, etc. All things we used to do and pretty much not applicable to today's vehicles.

For people who buy their car with the intention of owning it for more than 3-4 years, or possibly 10 or more years, and want it to last 100,000-200,000 miles, then one might want to change the oil more often than the 15,000 miles now recommended by BMW based on their current sales model. These are most likely those that also buy a used BMW, probably out of warranty already, and want it to last another 5-10 years or more. Many of these people will also do their own maintenance at least relatively simple things like oil changes, brake fluid flushes, and brake pad and rotor replacement.
To date I have seen no evidence to suggest following BMW's recommend 15K oil change interval has resulted in increased engine wear.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Back to the point, the OP's question as to Mike Miller's advice...
Mike's advice will ensure that your car is as reliable as humanly possible for as long as possible. Is it overkill? Not if you plan to keep your car a long time, and also want to be sure that you can get into your car on any given day and leave for the opposite coast without worrying about whether you'll make it or not.
It's a pricey plan, too, but people are willing to pay for peace of mind. There are tens of thousands of BMW owners, probably the majority of new BMW owners, who have no problem with keeping their cars in primo condition.
Two examples (I won't be specific because Mike requests that his suggestions not be quoted on the internet, for obvious reasons): Radiator replacement and oxygen sensor replacement. Mike suggests that these very expensive items be automatically replaced at set mileage intervals even though there is nothing wrong with them! Why? Because he knows that they are going to fail eventually and failure could be a much greater inconvenience and expense. That's good enough reason for many people.
I own a garage and service many older and on-warranty BMWs. My plan may differ from Mike's, and it does in some significant ways, but in the end it's the owner's call when all the cards are on the table.
In closing I will make one more point. If I were taking a trip in a small plane, and Mike Miller were an airframe mechanic, I'd want my mechanic to be following his plan.
 
#15 ·
Back to the point, the OP's question as to Mike Miller's advice...
Mike's advice will ensure that your car is as reliable as humanly possible for as long as possible. Is it overkill? Not if you plan to keep your car a long time, and also want to be sure that you can get into your car on any given day and leave for the opposite coast without worrying about whether you'll make it or not.
It's a pricey plan, too, but people are willing to pay for peace of mind. There are tens of thousands of BMW owners, in fact probably the majority of new BMW owners, who have no problem with keeping their cars in primo condition.
Two examples (I won't be specific because Mike requests that his suggestions not be quoted on the internet, for obvious reasons): Radiator replacement and oxygen sensor replacement. Mike suggests that these very expensive items be automatically replaced at set mileage intervals even though there is nothing wrong with them! Why? Because he knows that they are going to fail eventually and failure could be a much greater inconvenience and expense. That's good enough reason for many people.
I own a garage and service many older and on-warranty BMWs. My plan may differ from Mike's, and it does in some significant ways, but in the end it's the owner's call when all the cards are on the table.
In closing I will make one more point. If I were taking a trip in a small plane, and Mike Miller were an airframe mechanic, I'd want my mechanic to be following his plan.
I do follow Mike Miller's schedule, for various reasons.

However, my own personal feeling is that his recommendations MIGHT help reduce engine/mechanical problems.

The monster in the closet with BMW is always going to involve electrical problems. That, and the failure of plastic parts (like my plastic fuel tank developing cracks) are what worries me. Changing oil and doing preventative work is probably not going to do much to head that stuff off.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina
Yes, I did recommend Mike's schedule and often do. In context it was the right thing to suggest. I don't recommend it every time, and sometimes would strongly argue against parts of it. Back to the radiator example for instance. I have never recommended a customer change their non-leaking, non clogged radiator just because of mileage. But if that same customer told me they were driving to their new home in San Diego (from NH) with their elderly mom in the car, and their car had 120k on the clock and cost were no object (it isn't for many of my customers) I would suggest a new radiator, among other things.

*******>*******>*******> ********> ********>********>
These two statements seem at odds with one another. --sunny5280

I have never had someone tell me they were driving their elderly mom to San Diego in their ageing BMW. When they do I might recommend a radiator replacement before they hit the road. No conflict.
 
#27 ·
The first statement essentially says you don't recommend the replacement of a perfectly good radiator merely based on mileage. The next sentence goes on to say you would do just that if the customer were taking an elderly parent across the country. Unless there's a connection between driving an elderly parent across the country and radiator failure the two statements are at odds. Whether you've actually had a customer state as much to you isn't a factor.
 
#31 ·
Tolerance of risk and consequences for failure.

Like in software or (electrical) hardware design: is the product going to go into a remote control for a TV set or in a pacemaker?
In the first case, if something goes wrong, maybe the owner will just mash the volume button a bit longer. In the second case, someone dies.

Extreme example.
 
#34 · (Edited)
This is not an example of correlation between transporting an elderly parent across the county and radiator failures. The reality is there is no correlation. The radiator is just as likely (or not) to fail when transporting an elderly parent across the country as when not.

What you're referring to is the severity of the consequences should the radiator fail. It's my take DSXMachina feels the consequences of a radiator failure while transporting an elderly parent across the country warrant replacement of a perfectly good radiator based solely on the fact it has 120K miles on it. That seems to contradict his early statement about not recommending proactive replacement of parts which have not failed.

And if he's going to recommend replacement of the radiator will he also be recommending replacement of the water pump? Heater core? Expansion tank? All cooling hoses? What about the fuel pump? Or the various computers? Or how about the entire car (which is not as crazy as it seems because people do just that...when the mileage gets too high they replace the entire car)?
 
#39 ·
The odds don't change: the consequences do.


1:10,000 odds of yourself being stranded on the way home from work? Acceptable.
1:10,000 odds of your old grandmother being stranded 1,500 miles away from friends and family? Unacceptable.

That kind of thinking, not odds changing.
 
#42 ·
The odds don't change: the consequences do.
Bingo! Which means there is no correlation. Which means, unsurprisingly, CALWATERBOY was wrong.

1:10,000 odds of yourself being stranded on the way home from work? Acceptable.
1:10,000 odds of your old grandmother being stranded 1,500 miles away from friends and family? Unacceptable.

That kind of thinking, not odds changing.
Then why just focus on the radiator? What about the water pump? Expansion tank? Coolant hoses? Heater core? Fuel pump? The entire vehicle?

What about having to rush your elderly parent to the hospital? Wouldn't you want your vehicle to be at its peak in the event this may happen (which, I think, has happened more often than being stranded 1,500 miles from friends and family and has much greater consequences should the vehicle fail)?
 
#41 ·
So in all that the answer to my question seems to be....... strike a balance that makes you feel confident in your vehicle between the BMW recommended maintenance and mike miller's and ofcourse your wallet. What i'll probably do is be proactive on replacing cheaper parts according to Mike's plan and mix in elements of BMW's. For example i will replace T-stat and Wpump at 100K as this is their appox lifespan anyway but not the entire radiator and hoses if it is not leaking and unless i have a problem i probably wont change the tranny fluid either unless there is an acute problem. However oil changes are pretty cheap and as a crucial fluid i think that its good insurance to change this as per mike's plan - i will prob do it every 7,500 miles (mobil 1). pads/rotors i can leave to idrive to tell me since i beleive that system is pretty conservative with these items anyway.

I guess we all have to rememeber that the cost of parts is not an indication of how long they will last. Waiting for the day the radiator blows is understandable for cash flow reasons where as replacing chaper parts that are known to fail around certain timeframes before they have actually broken is also an understndable plan if you want to increase the reliability of your car without costing the earth.
 
#59 ·
As an attempt to get this thread back on topic regarding MM Old School Maintenance I follow some of his recommendations. However where you live and how you drive affects the schedule more than blindly following something set in stone. Extended oil changes for example Kola Motor Sports in Columbus, Ohio used to post pictures of BMWs that ran these oil changes. BMW forced Brett Anderson the owner to remove the pics or face litigation. The pics showed severely sludhed engines bearing failures. Now what isn't clear is how they were driven in Ohio. What is clear is that these were local cars subject to larger temperature fluctuations year round than cars in the south where I live most of the time. It all depends short drives say 4 miles twice a day in colder climates in stop and go traffic will provide different results than a 26 mi drive twice a day in warmer climates at freeway speeds. Clearly this factor accounts for more weighting than anything else. My 284K mile E36 M3 had only BMW oil changes using 5W30 synthetic oil. This car lived in AZ and FL and was free of sludge.
Had this car been given the same maintenance treatment in Ohio with short drives with the engine seldom getting out of open loop running the results would be different.
To the point you cannot run a statistical analysis of BMWs program against MM's program because you can't compare components that failed at a certain point against those taken out of service and replaced.
Lifetime fluids is another divigent point between BMW and independents. BMW used to state lifetime fluilds for
Automatic transmissions but now states 100k mi
Changes. Why? Because they failed and BMW has to compete with Lexus etc and their schedules are
Much different. ZF manufacturer of many automatic tramsmissions has recommended 50k mi changes vs BMW now saying 100k mi changes. I side with the manufacturer of the tramsmission not BMW in this case and if I spend too much for maintenance for peace of mind so be it...
 
#60 · (Edited)
[snip]

Lifetime fluids is another divigent point between BMW and independents. BMW used to state lifetime fluilds for
Automatic transmissions but now states 100k mi
Changes. Why? Because they failed and BMW has to compete with Lexus etc and their schedules are
Much different. ZF manufacturer of many automatic tramsmissions has recommended 50k mi changes vs BMW now saying 100k mi changes. I side with the manufacturer of the tramsmission not BMW in this case and if I spend too much for maintenance for peace of mind so be it...
People are willing to pay good money for peace of mind when it comes to their bodies, think life insurance and annual physicals. Why not pay far less yet get a similar result with our cars?
Your point about actual driving conditions being the largest single variable is spot on. One size doesn't fit all, one pill isn't for patients of all ages, and one maintenance plan isn't right for every car. They need to be tailored to location, drive plan and drive style.
 
#65 · (Edited)
God bless Mike Miller...he's highly knowledgeable in many areas, but when I "called him" on some erroneous tire engineering/technical comments some years ago (Roundel) he declined to acknowledge his error and retract it. He's quite proud and incapable of admitting a mistake (or at least I can't ever recall that he did).
 
#84 ·
Bav Autosports comes up with all sorts of recommendations, not surprisingly all of which suggest pouring more money into maintenance (which, btw, they make a pretty penny on). And, while most folk here would be sympathetic to their recommendation for more frequent oil changes, some would no doubt view some of their suggests with considerable skepticism. For example, this same source recommends rotating tires every 5,000 miles.

I still think Sunny's original point stands. I will continue to change my oil every 7,500 miles. But, I agree with Sunny that there is no real empirical evidence that longer intervals harm the car (just anecdotal stuff like the above).,
 
#92 · (Edited)
Wow, auto repair shops encouraging you to come in more often so they can take your money? Sounds totally unbiased to me.

Oil and engine technology have advanced greatly since Jiffy Lube began brainwashing people into 3K intervals in the 80s. I know old people are set in their ways, but you should spend some of your spare time over at bobistheoilguy.com and educate yourself.
 
#97 · (Edited)
I think marketing determines the Intervals.

I think marketing determines the Intervals.
Also do you think that just because they have degree they don't make mistakes.
We have the 4 year HPFP problem. The Intake build up problem for DI engines.
The run flat tire problem.
What will they say when marketing says they won't get there bonus if they don't deliver
on the stuff that marketing wants.
 
#100 ·
I think marketing determines the Intervals.
Also do you think that just because they have degree they don't make mistakes.
We have the 4 year HPFP problem. The Intake build up problem for DI engines.
The run flat tire problem.
What will they say when marketing says they won't get there bonus if they don't deliver
on the stuff that marketing wants.
You actually think the BMW is going to risk pissing off a customer base, attracting poor publicity, reliability ratings and law suits while at the same time ensuring they don't get the customer back in the showroom to spend another $50K+ because they want to save them a $100 oil change every six months? Really? Talk about a marketing nightmare..

btw, BMW doesn't manufacture HPFPs.
 
#102 ·
The trend seem to be let the customer test it.

The trend seem to be let the customer test it.
I don't know it this was always the case, it didn't seem to be at one time. Also they seem
to keep trying to leave there niche they created as a performance car
and go more toward the market trend.
And I guess you have to do that to survive .
 
#111 · (Edited)
There was a book about that.

Yes every time you stop the engine oil drains from the top into the pan.
There was a book out in the 90's called "make it last forever" which confirmed
that starting your motor was the place where wear occurred most. They also had
a lot of data about acid build up in oil due to contaminants . At one point there was
a company that sold and electric oil pump that you could use to pre pressurize the engine
to avoid this it also was good for turbo's as you could keep circulating the oil after
the car was turned off to stop the coking (oil burning)effect caused by turbo's .
 
#136 · (Edited)
Kilgore, you posted "My SA would benefit from me betting more frequent oil changes. Yet, he discourages me from doing so because based on his expertise and experience, he does not view it as necessary." Do you really think that a SA is going to go against BMW Munich and say that you should get an oil change more often than it is required by the warranty? Do you see any opportunity for a lawyer to take any such suggestion and use it against BMW in a lawsuit over a sludged engine with 15K intervals?

I disagree with Mike Miller on a few things, but not on oil change intervals. Modern oils are far better than what was available only ten years ago. They can keep their lubricity, their viscosity, and their detergency for 15K miles. In the lab, but not in every engine in the real world.

Salesmen who get onto highways in Nevada and drive all day without a complete cool down have the best shot at getting 15K safe miles between changes. A commuter in a congested New England city isn't going to make it. His oil never gets hot enough to boil off the condensation collecting in the sump. Ever see water almost pouring out of a tailpipe on a Winter morning? It's not all going out the tailpipe. Shear forces ('scraping' of oil with suspended water droplets) is going to mix some of that moisture with the oil. In the gasoline are sulphur molecules. These molecules mix with water molecules to form sulphuric acid. There are buffers in oil to fight acids. They run out. The moisture in the oil reduces the vaporization point of some of the oil. It boils off when the engine is shut down. It then passes through the system and condenses on the fastest cooling metal, forming deposits which eventually turn into sludge.
Engines are started at 10F and then run at 200F and shut down. That kind of thermal cycling presents challenges to viscosity integrity you don't get in southern California. Where will oil last the longest? BMW always blames our sh*t gas for all kinds of mechanical and driveability problems. Do you think that maybe there are also things in the gas which result in risks to the oil? How about methanol blends, or base stock composition, or refinerey practices, or additive qualities? Your intuition has to recognize variability in all those areas. To think that BMW has evaluated all the potential hazards to oil reliability is absurd. If so, then one would have to say that to ensure every BMW engine will perform at peak reliability for as long as possible would require that oil last 40,000 miles in the very best circumstances. Because that would be the top end of the failure curve, and 15K would be the lower end. How likely is that?
 
#137 ·
Kilgore, you posted "My SA would benefit from me betting more frequent oil changes. Yet, he discourages me from doing so because based on his expertise and experience, he does not view it as necessary." Do you really think that a SA is going to go against BMW Munich and say that you should get an oil change more often than it is required by the warranty? Do you see any opportunity for a lawyer to take any such suggestion and use it against BMW in a lawsuit over a sludged engine with 15K intervals?

I disagree with Mike Miller on a few things, but not on oil change intervals. Modern oils are far better than what was available only ten years ago. They can keep their lubricity, their viscosity, and their detergency for 15K miles. In the lab, but not in every engine in the real world.

Salesmen who get onto highways in Nevada and drive all day without a complete cool down have the best shot at getting 15K safe miles between changes. A commuter in a congested New England city isn't going to make it. His oil never gets hot enough to boil off the condensation collecting in the sump. Ever see water almost pouring out of a tailpipe on a Winter morning? It's not all going out the tailpipe. Shear forces ('scraping' of oil with suspended water droplets) is going to mix some of that moisture with the oil. In the gasoline are sulphur molecules. These molecules mix with water molecules to form sulphuric acid. There are buffers in oil to fight acids. They run out. The moisture in the oil reduces the vaporization point of some of the oil. It boils off when the engine is shut down. It then passes through the system and condenses on the fastest cooling metal, forming deposits which eventually turn into sludge.
Engines are started at 10F and then run at 200F and shut down. That kind of thermal cycling presents challenges to viscosity integrity you don't get in southern California. Where will oil last the longest? BMW always blames our sh*t gas for all kinds of mechanical and driveability problems. Do you think that maybe there are also things in the gas which result in risks to the oil? How about methanol blends, or base stock composition, or refinerey practices, or additive qualities? Your intuition has to recognize variability in all those areas. To think that BMW has evaluated all the potential hazards to oil reliability is absurd. If so, then one would have to say that to ensure every BMW engine will perform at peak reliability for as long as possible would require that oil last 40,000 miles in the very best circumstances. Because that would be the top end of the failure curve, and 15K would be the lower end. How likely is that?
Well said. However, for those participating on this thread who are basically engaging in tautological rhetoric, it won't matter because they have a different agenda.
 
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